New DIY PC - I'll give you the gory details later - but I've installed Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit and now doing Windows update. It downloaded 48 important updates but gets stuck installing 30 - "Security Update for Windows 7 x64-based Systems (KB2436673)".
PC still responds - I can close the window and do other stuff, but clicking the 'Stop installation' button just makes the button go grey. If I exit Windows Update then go back into it, it just resumes where it left off ie. trying to install update number 30. I can't get to a point where I can unselect KB2436673 to prevent it being installed.
There's no significant CPU activity while it's (not) installing KB2436673.
Any ideas?
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 16:18
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Reboot the PC, dont worry about what state its in, Windows will pick this one up and finish it.
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>> Reboot the PC, dont worry about what state its in, Windows will pick this one
>> up and finish it.
Thanks Z - rebooted, got a black Windows screen where it whizzed through some updates, then it automatically rebooted, got to a blue Windows screen where it said an update had failed and it was reverting.
Went back into Windows Update, back to >40 available updates (as expected), unselected the troublesome update and now trying again.
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 16:28
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This should work fine once the problematic update has been de-selected.
All other updates will apply then apply this update.
Since windows vista, the management for updates has been improved, some say it is too clever for it's own good but I think the updates are managed quite well.
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I would download full installation file for this troublesome update from here tinyurl.com/3yasacf (only 1.2 Meg) and install it standalone, then continue with your other updates. I've had to do this with about three updates for Vista and Win7 over the past couple of years.
Last edited by: Victorbox on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 16:59
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I give up - I've been trying to run the Windows Experience performance measurement utility for over a day now in Windows 7 64 bit, and it's still locking up in one of the 3D tests.
Tried Windows 7 32 bit at one point and that seemed ok, so I'm going back to that now...
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Focus,
Do any of these updates have any practical benefit?
You can pat yourself on the back for doing well with the new-build if that's the only snag.
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>> Do any of these updates have any practical benefit?
Who knows? :)
>> You can pat yourself on the back for doing well with the new-build if that's
>> the only snag.
Well... I've had a few BSODs, and unexpected restarts, and basically haven't got a stable system yet. I've just run memtest www.memtest.org/ twice to prove(?) it's not a memory problem, and at the moment I think it's a graphics card/driver issue. Card is a Powercolor 5750.
Latest lead is a conflict between the built-in graphics driver and the 5750 card driver - I've been installing the former (as part of the motherboard drivers installation) before the other, but I'm going to try installing the card driver on its own.
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Is there a service pack you can install before attempting the many updates ?
This might erradicate the problem for you.
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>> Is there a service pack you can install before attempting the many updates ?
Doesn't look like it - just lots of individual updates. But I don't think that's main issue.
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Can you disable on board graphics in the BIOS?
Old Dell machines use to do this automatically if you put the graphics card in a specific slot.
Easy way to see if graphics is causing the prob - don't out your graphics card in till it's stable! :-)
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>> Can you disable on board graphics in the BIOS?
I have had a good look, but couldn't see anything - there's configuration options but not one to just enable/disable it.
>> Easy way to see if graphics is causing the prob - don't out your graphics
>> card in till it's stable! :-)
I have managed to run the Windows Experience utility without the card, and also with the card but not the card-specific drivers.
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>> >> Can you disable on board graphics in the BIOS?
>>
>> I have had a good look, but couldn't see anything - there's configuration options but
>> not one to just enable/disable it.
Just re-read the manual and I understand it now :)
You can select the priority, and it's set such that the external card is highest priority, so that's not the problem (unfortunately).
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Sorry I have to ask.
Have you downloaded and installed the windows 7 64 bit radeon drivers?
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>> Sorry I have to ask.
Don't worry - I'm running out of ideas...
>> Have you downloaded and installed the windows 7 64 bit radeon drivers?
Tried downloading 32/64 bit drivers depending on which size Windows I've installed, and also let Windows update download whichever version it thinks is appropriate.
Now taken out the card (again) and going to make sure it is fully stable (as smokie was suggesting). If it is, I think I'll send the card back, although I might try swapping cards with the other PC (Nvidia 7900GS).
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I would stick with Windows 7 64-bit for fairly obvious reasons. I assume you have or soon will put more than 4Gb RAM in the computer.
I think I'd see how it runs with the inbuilt graphics and do some stress tests. Then put the card back in.
The Radeon you bought doesn't sound high end so I doubt it's power related - the 7900GS might be a good test for stability too.
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>> I would stick with Windows 7 64-bit for fairly obvious reasons.
Not really bothered - don't expect to see much difference at home, but I feel I ought to be able to at least prove it works on the new build. Are you referring to not being able to see the full 4GB in 32 bit?
>> I assume you have
>> or soon will put more than 4Gb RAM in the computer.
Nope - no plans to at the moment. What makes you think that?
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Windows Experience has just run ok without the card, under Windows 7 32 bit. Going to try 64 bit now.
I suppose the problem with the 7900GS is that it's an Nvidia card so won't be using the same drivers - less useful as a comparison.
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>> he 7900GS is that it's an Nvidia card so won't be using the same drivers - less useful as a comparison.
Rules out using a PCIe card as being the problem though. And I was thinking about power draw from the PSU.
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>> Are you referring to not being able to see the full 4GB in 32 bit?
Well you'll never see 4Gb in 32-bit Windows because that's not possible. And 2Gb by default (unless you change settings) is used by kernel space anyway.
No I am referring to making use of more than 4Gb of real RAM in 64-bit mode. Otherwise 32-bit might be fine for now.
My work laptop now has 8Gb RAM and despite having it only for a day or two before getting the 8Gb, it certainly runs better with 8Gb RAM running VMs than it did with 4Gb. Which is why I thought you might be tempted to make use of more than 4Gb RAM. It's quite cheap after all.
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>> >> or soon will put more than 4Gb RAM in the computer.
>> Nope - no plans to at the moment. What makes you think that?
Why bother with 64-bit Windows otherwise? Programs in 64-bit take more space. Running 32-bit code on 64-bit Windows does not. But why go 64-bit then apart from future proofing it?
Although Windows in 64-bit mode as you will know as a developer has more registers to play with. Another advantage of the AMD extension to the x86 instruction set. The x86 design is very poor in this respect. But this is largely hidden by the good work NexGen (now part of AMD) did with their Nx686 CPU back in the 90s. Ideas used by Intel and AMD since.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 2 Jan 11 at 23:06
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RTJ is right
If you are not planning to use 4gb of memory or more, its pointless using win64.
I can get win32 to utilise over just over 3gb of memory anyway.
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>> >> >> or soon will put more than 4Gb RAM in the computer.
>> >> Nope - no plans to at the moment. What makes you think that?
>>
>> Why bother with 64-bit Windows otherwise? Programs in 64-bit take more space. Running 32-bit code
>> on 64-bit Windows does not. But why go 64-bit then apart from future proofing it?
No real reason - just assumed it would give the best all-round performance, and that things would gradually shift to 64 bit so might as well be prepared. Quite happy to use 32 though.
>> Although Windows in 64-bit mode as you will know as a developer
I might if I developed for Intel CPUs :)
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Mmm... Windows Experience came up with an error running in Win 7 64 bit, although it didn't lock up like it does with the card installed. I'm not convinced the motherboard drivers are totally happy in the 64 bit environment.
Back to 32 bits, and will try the 7900GS.
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If the motherboard and processor does not like 64-bit send it all back!
In response to:
>> I might if I developed for Intel CPUs :)
Then you obviously don't referring to Intel CPUs. The 64-bit extensions to x86 came from AMD and tend to be called x64. There are differences between Intel and AMD extensions to processors running 64-bit but the instruction and register differences are from AMD.
But I don't develop for anything. I just work in IT and read about it for background info.
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That's interesting - 32 bit installation appears to have hung in 'Completing installation'. I'm starting to get worried now...
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I wouldn't... it ran okay(ish) in 64-bit Windows.
Does anyone know of some live stress tests for Ubuntu to test the hardware in 32 and 64 bit modes?
If it's not working then send the problem part(s) back.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 00:25
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Running the Windows Memory Diagnostics Tool - "Hardware problems were detected. To identify and repair these problems, you will need to contact the computer manufacturer." Ooh-err.
I'll see if there's any more info when it finishes...
Last edited by: Focus on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 00:26
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>> Fault memory then?
That's the implication I guess, although if that were the case I'm surprised memtest didn't pick it up - it was running for over an hour (2 iterations).
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>> >> Fault memory then?
>>
>> That's the implication I guess
or motherboard perhaps? Might give memtest another go, and leave it running overnight - SWMBO has told me it's time 'to give it a rest' :)
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Poorly seated? Can the motherboard and chipset work with one? I assume yes? My first dual channel MB was an nVidia one and that was a long time ago but would work single channel anyway.
Z.. I know you probably have an i5 or i7 running three channel for memory.
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Ahah - looked at the memtest display and it said 'cached 38xxM' where previously it said 4096M. I think some memory has gone 'missing', which the Windows tools attempted to test, but memtest doesn't (by default - you can specify the address range).
Went into the BIOS, and in system information it says 4096M installed, 38xxM usable.
Checked memory seating and it seemed ok; powered up again and still missing in BIOS.
Might try the single strip tomorrow.
Night night :)
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I have an I5 running two of the three channels. I had 4 sticks of memory, so I used it to memory match two channels. I never mix memory makers on the same channel.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 09:33
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I would go with Win7 64 bit if you can get it working for the security enhancements in addition to the large memory space - see tinyurl.com/y8nfcxb
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Linux memtest en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memtest86 (I had a version on a Knoppix 5.1 bootable DVD but this no longer starts - I think because I now have 8Gb memory).
I also have a Linux flavour bootable CD called SystemRescueCD (www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page) but I think that's more to do with re-partitioning disks than memory or processor faults.
There is also an image widely available called Hiren's Boot CD which is a collection of commercial products (and thus probably illegal) but from memory that includes system exercisers.
Remove everything you can (including a stick of memory) and see how it goes. Also check that you have not inadvertently grounded the board through the fixing screws (which I did once, causing hangs and lock ups) - you can try unscrewing the board and just resting it on a bit of card or something to provide insulation.
Also make sure that you have the BIOS settings at default rather using overclocked settings. Could be worth clearing/resetting the CMOS to factory defaults - usually a jumper to do so.
If you can replace any parts into or from another computer (processor, memory), try that, to isolate the problem.
Also you could whack the disk into another computer to scan for errors.
That should keep you busy awhile :-)
Memory "shortage" in BIOS is poss due to onboard video having some reserved.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 09:04
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>> Memory "shortage" in BIOS is poss due to onboard video having some reserved.
Doh! I think you're right. Just been trying a single stick at a time, and the BIOS always says 17xxM / 2048M usable.
Running the Windows Memory Diagnostics, which reported a hardware error with both sticks present, didn't detect anything on either stick individually. Put both sticks back in, and it's gone through ok. Perhaps it was a seating issue.
Also tried putting the new graphics card in the old PC. Seemed ok, but again the Windows Experience Index utility locked up in one of the 3D graphics test. So either the card is also faulty, or perhaps there's an issue with the current ATi drivers - I'll leave the card in for now and see how it goes when son starts playing World of Warcraft later.
Back to the new PC - going to check it out with the apparently ok memory. I think motherboard is fitted ok - there are spacers between it and the chassis.
Regarding the overclocking - yes, there are some BIOS settings for that, and I think it's disabled. But will double-check.
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>> Put both sticks back in, and it's gone through ok.
...but I left it running, and it came up with "hardware problems were detected" again on pass 4. Great - it's intermittent!
Better try single sticks again, leaving it running for longer.
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Focus, whats your
Make and model of Motherboard.
Make, model and specs of memory.
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>> Focus, whats your
>>
>> Make and model of Motherboard.
Asus M4A78LT-M LE (latest BIOS)
>> Make, model and specs of memory.
Errr... eBuyer "EXTRA VALUE 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 1333MHz Memory Kit 1.5V CL9"
manufacturer #: EVR4GBDDRIII1333-K
I know - it's probably a case of 'you get what you pay for'. But I don't mind so long as I can be sure it is the memory that's at fault, and I don't think I've done that yet.
The memory is listed as no longer available on the ebuyer site - I'm sure they had quite a few left when I ordered mine, so I wonder if they took it off when they started getting lots of returns?
Last edited by: Focus on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 09:42
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>> The memory is listed as no longer available on the ebuyer site
Ignore that comment - now there's one left(?).
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Ok well, you only have two memory slots to play with, so you cant move it around much!
See if you can get it stable with one stick in one slot. DO you have the CPU and memory timings set at the most conservative settings?
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>> See if you can get it stable with one stick in one slot.
Typing this on new PC (rather than laptop), Win 7 32 bit installed, one RAM stick...
>> DO you have the CPU and memory timings set at the most conservative settings?
I think so - the 'Advanced clock calibration' is disabled, and I can't see anything else which sounds like it's trying to speed things up and is enabled.
I'll install Sisoft Sandra to get a memory report.
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>> >> Focus, whats your
>> >>
>> >> Make and model of Motherboard.
>>
>> Asus M4A78LT-M LE (latest BIOS)
Bios 0704?
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>> >> Asus M4A78LT-M LE (latest BIOS)
>>
>> Bios 0704?
Yep. Apologies for the delay - Christmas decorations to take down/put away and dog to walk. Now putting the 7900GS back in the old PC as the 5750 crashed it in World of Warcraft. I'm hoping that's a (lack of) power issue.
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I was running an Nvida GTS250 off the stock PSU of my 5 year old P4 for a while. It now has a more powerful and efficient PSU - very efficient in fact because it is rarely on ;-)
Maybe it's a problem with the graphics card that's effecting the new PC too? Or have you still had memory problems using the inbuilt video chip?
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>> Maybe it's a problem with the graphics card that's effecting the new PC too? Or
>> have you still had memory problems using the inbuilt video chip?
It's ok at the moment, with a single stick. Just changed a BIOS setting for clock speed control from auto to disabled - going to try both sticks again to see if it's made a difference.
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I thought the system by default (when on auto) would read the specification for the memory and set the speed etc. appropriately. The info for the DIMM will be stored on the DIMM in the timings table. There will be a few columns, each with details for:
- Frequency
- CAS# latency
- RAS# to CAS# Delay
- RAS# Precharge
- tRAS (Cycle Time)
- tRFC (Row Refresh Cycle Time)
- Voltage
For my laptop the 'default' is the second set of settings with a slower and faster set available. But faster in MHz end up with a higher latency.
Might be worth putting the memory in and checking it with CPU-Z to see if they are indeed the same type. Maybe they are different spec?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 15:12
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CPU-Z reports look the same for both slots in the SPD tab.
Looking at the BIOS again, that setting is in the "CPU Configuration" section and is labelled "Advanced Clock Calibration". If set to Auto (as opposed to Disabled, what I just changed it to) you get additional settings:
- "Unleashing Mode" - currently disabled ("Enable Unleashing Mode to get FULL power of processor. [Warning! System might become unstable due to different CPU O.C. margins.]")
- "Active CPU Cores" to unlock other cores
Didn't seem to make any difference to the CPU-Z reports with Advanced Clock Calibration set to Auto, but I'm going to re-run the Windows Memory Diagnostic with it on Auto to see if it reports a problem again...
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Forgot to say the Memory Diagnostic went through 11 iterations without detecting any problems with Advanced Clock Calibration set to Disabled.
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>> Forgot to say the Memory Diagnostic went through 11 iterations without detecting any problems with
>> Advanced Clock Calibration set to Disabled.
...and now it's gone through 6 iterations with it set back to Auto! Drat, I was hoping that would fail, like it did before.
Clutching at straws but I'm trying again (Auto) with the 2 RAM sticks the other way round.
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>> Clutching at straws but I'm trying again (Auto) with the 2 RAM sticks the other
>> way round.
Aargh! That worked as well. Might as well try the graphics card again.
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Ran the Windows Experience check without the graphics card and I'm getting:
Processor: 6.9
Memory: 7.2
Graphics: 4.3
Gaming graphics: 5.1
Primary hard disk: 5.9
So the graphics scores are low as expected, but is the disk score a bit low for a new 7200rpm SATA2 drive?
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Results for my laptop:
Processor: 6.9
Memory: 6.9
Graphics: 4.7
Gaming graphics: 5.1
Primary hard disk: 5.9
So apart from Microsoft thinking the graphics performance in my laptop is a bit better than the graphics in your desktop (both Intel BTW) and my memory is a bit slower... but I'd say I'd expect more from a desktop SATA2 drive. But this is Microsoft after all.
The results above were for my machine with only 4Gb... Until I get the 8Gb from work I stuck my own set in. Which is slightly slower but will go in the Mac soon :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 3 Jan 11 at 17:46
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>> Results for my laptop:
Thanks.
>> So apart from Microsoft thinking the graphics performance in my laptop is a bit better
>> than the graphics in your desktop (both Intel BTW)
The on-board graphics in the new PC are ATi HD 3000 IIRC. Or is that supplied by Intel?
>> but I'd say I'd expect more from a desktop SATA2 drive. But this is
>> Microsoft after all.
Mmm... something else to look at....
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Rerun now (because it now has 8Gb RAM) and the memory is the same. Somehow the gaming graphics is now claiming 5.2. Only change is the extra 4Gb memory. This is only DDR3 8500 instead of DDR3 10666 but the latency has dropped from 8 to 7.
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I'd say the hard disk measurement is capped at 5.9. I have solid state C and D drives and they only score 5.9.
Just for interest my processor is 7.1, as is memory, Graphics and gaming graphics are both 6.8
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Seem to be lots of peeps "dissatisfied" with their disk rating, esp with 5.9 on SATA3. As the more savvy have said in various posts, if it's going OK then the figures don't mean too much really.
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I am
CPU 7.5
memory 7.4
Graphics 6.9
Hard disk 5.9
This is with a home made Asus P7P55, Intel I5 and Geforce 8800GTS
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Well I put the 5750 back in and installed the latest Catalyst driver, but it's not right. Apart from Windows Exoerience locking up (as before), I got other effects like all the text in menus being blacked out (also seen previously).
I'm going to return the card to ebuyer - I'm fairly sure now that it's faulty.
As for the memory issue, which seems to have gone away - who knows? Not seated correctly? I don't think it's causing the graphics problems.
Thanks for the help guys.
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The holes for chasis screws are grounded points, and they need to be grounded to prevent floating earths, and spurious signals. You just need to keep the back of the motherboard off the chasis, but the solder collar round the mounting hole grounded.
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Pretty sure my 2 x 4Gb are eBuyer Value and no probs so far.
While Z is right re the chassis points, going back some years I had a major problem with it shorting and ended up punching holes in a piece of card to sit between the chassis and the mb - not really suggesting that it's your prob but it certainly gave me some headaches at the time.
Just had to do a return of a DOA power supply with eBuyer - not the easiest transaction. They ignored my initial request for RMA (through the webpage), then eventually when they processed it the part had gone out of stock, they didn't inform me and just left my order pending till I chased them repeatedly. They've now replaced with an alternate and refunded the difference. Took over 5 weeks. Also they are refusing to refund the postage until I can prove the cost of postage (which I know isn't unreasonable, but it was nearly £6 on an item worth around £10)
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...Just had to do a return of a DOA power supply with eBuyer...
I had what can best be described as an eccentric return/refund experience with www.memorybits.co.uk/
It was only a few quid, and I think they were more disorganised than obstructive.
The refund appeared a month or so after I'd given up.
Now back to Focus's computer....
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>> Just had to do a return of a DOA power supply with eBuyer - not
>> the easiest transaction.
Ok so far - filled in the online returns form yesterday, they've accepted it and I've opted for their courier to pick up the card on Thursday (could have chosen tomorrow).
I've asked for a direct replacement as it was simplest option, but I don't know what I'll do if that misbehaves as well...
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 4 Jan 11 at 10:09
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>> I've asked for a direct replacement as it was simplest option, but I don't know
>> what I'll do if that misbehaves as well...
Then you'll need to find the real cause.
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>> I've asked for a direct replacement as it was simplest option, but I don't know
>> what I'll do if that misbehaves as well...
Change of plan - saw an as-new 5770 on ebay for £80 (cheapest on ebuyer is £95, 5750 was £88), local seller, so just bought that and changed my return to a refund.
I'm still stuffed though if either (1) ebuyer test my 5750 and reckon it's ok (no refund), or (2) I get the same issues with the 5770...
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Big relief - installed the ebay 5770 and it managed to get all the way through Windows Experience (7.4 for both graphics scores).
Just hope now that the 5750 I returned to ebuyer doesn't come back with a 'no fault found' - I might tell them about the 5770 to bolster my case.
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I wouldn't or they might think you wanted a refund because you spotted this on ebay. Maybe tell them you used a card from the old pc if you need to. Sounds like the card was faulty. I assume you also told them it crashed in the old pc.
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>> I wouldn't or they might think you wanted a refund because you spotted this on
>> ebay.
Good point - I'll see what they say first.
>> Maybe tell them you used a card from the old pc if you need to.
I told them that the onbord (ATi) graphics worked fine in the new PC...
>> I assume you also told them it crashed in the old pc.
...and that.
Hopefully if they see my order history going back to 2001 (Duron 800 + bits) they'll give me the benefit of any doubt :)
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>> >> I wouldn't or they might think you wanted a refund because you spotted this
>> on
>> >> ebay.
>>
>> Good point - I'll see what they say first.
They've found it faulty and refunded me - phew :)
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>>
>>
>> The holes for chasis screws are grounded points, and they need to be grounded to
>> prevent floating earths, and spurious signals. You just need to keep the back of the
>> motherboard off the chasis, but the solder collar round the mounting hole grounded.
>>
I had a problem with a spare mobo. a couple of months back, every time it went through POST it reported a different amount of RAM. Checked the case and there weren't any standoffs for a couple of the mobo. mounting points. Drilled a couple of holes and mounted standoffs, now it reports RAM consistently.
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Windows 7 update problem - Zero
