Some of you may recall an earlier thread in which I was trying to sort out what machine I would need to run Sibelius 7 effectively, given that my present machine, despite being 64 bit, is limited to 3GB RAM.
(Sibelius 7 is a music notation program with a large array of sounds for high-quality replay - hence the need for plenty of RAM.)
From advice on the Sibelius users' forum it seems as if I should be looking at 16GB RAM at least. I would go for a desktop PC. There seem to be machines available with the tasty i7 processors, though everything with large RAM seems to be aimed at gamers - ugh! Apart from checking that the machine has either got the required RAM or can be upgraded, another possibility has surfaced.
A SSD running the operating system is being touted as the really slick way of handling resource-hungry programs like Sibelius. Trouble is, if you put this into the specification, you're looking at a machine with all kinds of bells and whistles and it seems horribly expensive.
Is it easy to install an after-market SSD and migrate the OS on to it? Please go easy on me - I'm not that expert in computers. It may in fact be a daft question.
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you mean clone your current OS onto an SSD and then install into your current machine as the primary drive?
Yes its possible, but I dont see where this gives you the required RAM to run the program the way you want to.
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>> I dont see where this gives you the required RAM to run the program the way you want to.
Neither do I. He's still only got 3GB RAM and some of that cannot be used by the program because Windows itself will take maybe a GB of that. If he's thinking putting a big page file on the SSD then it would be quicker than a page file on a hard disk but it will soon lead to failure of the SSD.
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If this software really needs lot of RAM, ideally 16GB, and you have only 3GB then an SSD will load the OS faster, load the software faster, allow for a faster page file but it will not really help. And paging on an SSD isn't the best idea IMO due to the limited write cycles offered by flash memory (even if you went for the much more expensive single cell variety).
So to answer the last question - yes it's easy but (a) it won't help you much and (b) I'd advise against it for what you are trying to do. Go for more RAM.
Your needs are a prime candidate for a custom build - you want lots of RAM but probably could make do with a Core i5 processor. And certainly on board graphics and not an expensive discrete GPU. As you say, systems that come with lots of RAM as standard tend to be higher spec.
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Yes prime candidate for self build.
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Sorry - I wasn't clear. I intend to buy a new machine with, probably, an i7 processor and at least 16GB RAM or the facility to upgrade to that or beyond.
The question is whether it's a good idea to factor in an SSD in some way.
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Only if you have the money, but I wouldn't make it a priority.
If you are buying a new machine with an I7 you cant clone your old system and expect it to work on the new one.
(well you can, but you really need to know what you are doing to get it to work)
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 12:22
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I wouldn't want to clone my present system. I would start afresh with Windows 7 (hopefully - Windows 8, realistically), install Sibelius 7 on to it and go from there.
I was just wondering about the issues if one had a new machine and tried to install an SSD. You would need to get the OS on to it somehow.
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The same way you get an OS onto any other kind of "drive"
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'The same way you get an OS onto any other kind of "drive"'
I have never put an OS onto a computer. If one exists already, on a conventional hard disk, is it possible simply to move the contents of the disk to an SSD?
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From what you said in your previous thread, this program needs lots of RAM. The SSD would mean the system loads up quicker, the program will load quicker. But once loaded the SSD won't make much difference for you.
I still think you could get a cheaper machine that is suitable for what you want. It doesn't sound like you need the fastest CPU just lots of RAM. A core i5 system but with 16GB RAM (maybe even 32GB) would probably do you. And unless you're going to get into gaming, the graphics built into a Core i5 or i7 will be fine for your needs.
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If you wanted to install an SSD later, it's relatively straightforward to clone the disk over. Just has to be as big or bigger than the disk you're cloning. So you might need to move data off before cloning.
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How much is 'horribly expensive'?
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"16GB i7 PCs for £440 on ebay if that's any help:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sphere-PC-Intel-Core-i7-Quad-Core-3770-3-5GHz-16GB-DDR3-RAM-1TB-Hard-Drive-/320912083818"
Thanks for that, F. It looks good, except that 16GB is the ceiling for RAM, and how reliable is the brand?
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>> "16GB i7 PCs for £440 on ebay if that's any help:
>> www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sphere-PC-Intel-Core-i7-Quad-Core-3770-3-5GHz-16GB-DDR3-RAM-1TB-Hard-Drive-/320912083818"
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>> Thanks for that, F. It looks good, except that 16GB is the ceiling for RAM,
>> and how reliable is the brand?
Sorry FP - 16GB might be the ceiling, but are you saying that in itself is a problem, or that it comes with less? It looks like it comes with 16GB.
As for the brand - it's not a brand as such, just systems put together by people who can get hold of parts cheaply and put components together. That's why it's more of a risk, one that I'd be happy to take, but you might feel otherwise. Looks like they have good feedback FWIW.
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 12:53
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That actually looks OK for the money considering if you built yourself you would be looking at:
i7 ivy bridge ~ £220
M Board ~ £40
16Gb Ram ~ £60/70
Hard Drive ~ £40
Windows License ~ £60
Never mind the case / power supply etc.
Might be worth contact them and asking for a quote with an upgraded Power Supply (no mention in ad, so prob cheap as standard) and possibly add SSD
Last edited by: ToMoCo on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 12:59
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Sorry FP - you'd have to add Windows to that, currently £120 for full retail version on Amazon. Or buy a similar one with Windows - ask seller how much?
EDIT: £60 for OEM version
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 13:04
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Ahh, I saw the windows 8 graphic and assumed it was included. But not. You should be able to add an OEM copy for around £60
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"we can pre-install the Home Premium (64bit) version for an additional £80" - I'd probably spend £40 extra on the full retail version so I have a disk I can keep and use again.
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 13:06
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...actually no, I'd just pay £60 for my own OEM version and install it myself. Can't legally use it on another build, but at least you have a DVD you can use to re-install if it all goes pear-shaped.
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If you've currently got a machine running XP onwards then I think you can still get the upgrade to Win8 for 25 quid - don't think you have to use it on the XP machine.
crave.cnet.co.uk/software/windows-8-out-today-yours-for-25-50009597/
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"How much is 'horribly expensive'?"
I was looking at a machine with 16GB RAM, i7 and SSD. (And a whole lot of other stuff I don't need - including a disgusting case, funny lights etc.) It was over £1,000.
I was rather hoping I could keep the cost down to around £500 - £600.
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>> I was rather hoping I could keep the cost down to around £500 - £600.
Possible, with the ebay PC above + something like:
www.ebuyer.com/387080-sandisk-128gb-pulse-ssd-slim-sdssdp-128g-g25
(you could ask the ebay seller how much to add one for you)
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 12:46
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Thanks, RTJ - that sounds about right.
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If you risked going for this machine on ebay you might as well find someone you can trust to build a PC for you that suits your needs. You don't need a Core i7 for what you're doing - a quad Core i5 will be fine. You do want to get a better motherboard than the one I suspect is in the machine linked to - no reason not to have the option for 32GB RAM. 4 x8GB DIMMs are about £115 now (for the four).
EDIT: In fact you might even get away with a Core i3 if you're needs are for RAM and not CPU performance. But I'd still go for at least a Core i5.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 13:31
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Thanks, RTJ. I have e-mailed the guy raising the issue of 32 MB RAM and SSD, and we'll see what he says.
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Here's the e-Bay seller's reply:
"Thank you for your enquiry. I can confirm that we would be able to fit the MSI Z77MA-G45 motherboard into this system which would allow you to install up to 32GB of memory (as well as upgrading the machine to the newer Z77 chipset and adding additional features such as USB3.0 and SATA3). The cost of this motherboard would be an additional £50 (with the standard 16GB of memory installed). The memory installed in the machine would be 2x 8GB modules, allowing you to simply insert 2 additional modules when you wanted to upgrade the memory.
We are also able to fit a variety of SSDs into the machine ranging from 60GB up to 240GB, depending on your requirements. We usually use either Kingston, Intel or Corsair SSDs, depending on the availability when your order is built. Please find our prices for our SSDs below:
60GB SSD £65
90GB SSD £85
120GB SSD £110
180GB SSD £140
240GB SSD £150
All of the above prices are based on the SSD being an additional drive, meaning that the system will still include the 1TB standard drive. If you wanted the SSD to be a replacement to the 1TB drive then the above prices could be reduced."
I'm impressed with the fact that he has properly addressed my questions and has given such a comprehensive, prompt answer.
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He's certainly not over the top with his upgrade costs. Ask for a decent power supply if you do go this route.
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Why does he need additional power? I'm sure mine is running on something around 375w, with all sorts in it - 3 x SSDs, 2 x HDDs, DVD that I can remember.
If going the SSD route you def want a second, larger, SATA disk for your data - also have my paging gong on there to reduce wear on my SSDs (although they've already paid for themselves so I'm going to page onto one soon, until it dies - to give me an excuse to upgrade it). I actually turned off paging for a while when I got 8Gb memory as nothing I use really pages a lot - but it's back on now.
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>> Why does he need additional power? I'm sure mine is running on something around 375w,
>> with all sorts in it - 3 x SSDs, 2 x HDDs, DVD that I
>> can remember.
Not necessarily more power, I just wouldn't want the cheapest available PSU in it.
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As i said I'd be building it myself.
Intel Core i5-3570K 3.40GHz (Ivy Bridge) Socket LGA1155 Processor - Retail £ 134.99
ASUS P8Z77-V LX Intel Z77 Socket 1155 DDR3 PCI-Express Motherboard £ 70.82
Cooler Master Elite 335U Black Midi Tower Gaming Case £ 27.39
500W Cooler Master Elite Power Power Supply £ 23.32
16GB (4x4GB) Corsair Vengeance Jet Black 1600MHz CL9 DDR3 Dual/Quad Channel Kit [CMZ16GX3M4A1600C9] £ 74.99
MICROSOFT Windows Home Premium 7 SP1 64-bit EN 1pk - OEM £ 58.32
2TB Seagate Barracuda ST2000DM001 3.5" SATA III Hard Drive £ 56.65
LiteOn IHOS104 4x SATA Internal BluRay BD-ROM Drive - OEM £ 24.99
With delivery and vat £577.49.
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Yes, an altogether better option - but the ebay system still looks like value if he doesn't fancy building one (I would reccomend self build BTW, very straightforward).
Out of interest, where are you seeing the i5 3570 for £135?
EDIT: Never mind, your costs are Ex VAT
Last edited by: ToMoCo on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 14:01
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Again, looks like good value, but not comparable to the self build.
Motherboard looks like a £32 MSI job that's 16Gb max still. No SATA III either if long term upgrade is likely
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I really like the idea of building a computer myself, but am worried about it, because I understand so little of the way the different components connect and interact. I have good eye-hand co-ordination and good DIY skills, though. I'd do it if I had a friend who could bail me out if it all went wrong!
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Just a short while ago I knew nothing of the internals of a computer, then faced with needing a replacement for a carp old original celeron desktop it was suggested I build one. I bought a load of second hand parts from forums and put it all together. never looked back. I've since put another 2 new ones together. The best thing is I know what's in there now and can easily upgrade parts if/when the need arises.
It really is straightforward. Go for it (and there are people here much more knowledgeable than myself to give adive along the way if you need it)
Last edited by: ToMoCo on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 14:47
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Thank you, TMC - I'm almost convinced!
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Zero:
www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/Processors+-+Intel/
on the Aria intel i5 listing, they have
Intel Core i5-3570K for £161.99 inc. VAT (£134.99 exc. VAT)
and
Intel Core i5-3570 (without the K) for £152.99 inc. VAT (£127.49 exc. VAT).
Do you know what extra features the "K" signifies?
FocalPoint:
To selfbuild the above PC, you'd have to follow the instructions in the manual you can download from uk.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8Z77V_LX/
"Version E7094
Description P8Z77-V LX User's Manual (English)
File Size 5,96 (MBytes) 2012.03.23 update"
Last edited by: John H on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 17:19
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That is vey impressive, John H - the diagrams are just what's needed by someone like me. Still not sure if I'm going to do it!
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>> Zero:
>> www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials/Processors+-+Intel/
>> on the Aria intel i5 listing, they have
>> Intel Core i5-3570K for £161.99 inc. VAT (£134.99 exc. VAT)
>> and
>> Intel Core i5-3570 (without the K) for £152.99 inc. VAT (£127.49 exc. VAT).
>>
>> Do you know what extra features the "K" signifies?
Yup, on the "K" the multiplier pin on the CPU is unlocked, so it can be overclocked.
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But the standard, locked version of CPUs from Intel automatically overclock depending on temperature and other factors. So if you need fewer cores the thermal envelope allows those cores to run faster when needed.
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>> But the standard, locked version of CPUs from Intel automatically overclock depending on temperature and
>> other factors.
No they dont overclock above its core speed, they throttle down from there when getting hot. You can overclock the core speed by messing with the multiplier through the overclocking pin.
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>> No they dont overclock above its core speed
Yes they do. It's called Intel Turbo Boost. So if only one core is running, it has the same thermal envelope to operate in as 4... so it can go faster. The other cores on modern Intel CPUs are power gated - when they are not needed, they are off.
Not all Intel CPU's can do Turbo Boost though. Now I'm about to realise only Core i7 does Turbo Boost or something.
www.intel.com/support/processors/corei5/sb/CS-032278.htm
But don't think I am wrong.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 18:10
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>> >> No they dont overclock above its core speed
>>
>> Yes they do. It's called Intel Turbo Boost. So if only one core is running,
>> it has the same thermal envelope to operate in as 4... so it can go
>> faster.
It cant go faster than its upper limit core clock speed. If its unlocked you overclock the cpu by increasing that upper limit core clock speed. say 3.8 ghz to 4 ghz.
You will have to cool the cpu better, and twiddle with the core voltage to get it running stable and not cycling down due to excess heat.
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>> Yup, on the "K" the multiplier pin on the CPU is unlocked, so it can
>> be overclocked.
>>
Thanks.
Would it therefore be pointless to buy the "K" for someone not interested in overclocking?
(I am gathering info for someone who wants a custom built PC).
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yes it would be pointless to buy the unlocked one, just stick the non k one in and it will set itself up to operate at its best highest but stable speeds.
Overclocking is a black art that can bite you later in surprising ways.
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>Overclocking is a black art that can bite you later in surprising ways.
And assumes that the particular chip you have responds well to overclocking.
BTW FP. Is Sibelius multi-threaded?
If not, for a given price you're better off going with a fast i5 than a slower i7.
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"BTW FP. Is Sibelius multi-threaded?"
I didn't understand this until I did a bit of research, and offer this from one of the developers of Sibelius:
"Sibelius's audio handling is multi-threaded, so if you have multiple
cores available, the operating system may well decide to hive off
specific threads to different cores, though Sibelius doesn't have any
special capabilities in this area."
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 21:55
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But how many threads does it typically have? And there can be a downside to the Hyperthreading on a Core i7 for certain apps. The Core i5 and i7 are both quad core but the latter can pretend each core has two virtual threads giving eight. But each thread cannot use as many resources as a full core.
I still say for most the Core i5 is more suitable for most general purposes. If you really need 8 cores and want to keep costs down (and not power consumption) the Athlon FX-8350 is worth a look. A Core i7 will be faster but costs more. One reason I ruled out the Athlon FX-8150 (predecessor of the 8350) was it won't easily run MaxOSX. Another was some limitations for VMware ESX5i.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 22:27
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musical editing and input is likely to be serial so single threaded. Effects, compression and musical output could be parallel so could be multithreaded
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>> could be parallel so could be multithreaded
So is that what the advantage of multi-threading comes down to? The ability to parallel process?
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>> >> could be parallel so could be multithreaded
>>
>> So is that what the advantage of multi-threading comes down to? The ability to parallel
>> process?
No simple answer to that one. You might want to multithread to keep a CPU busy when another thread gets blocked, by a cache miss for example, or have two threads working on the same data loaded into cache. Don't profess to be an expert in that field.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 23:03
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>> >> >> could be parallel so could be multithreaded
>> >>
>> >> So is that what the advantage of multi-threading comes down to? The ability to
>> parallel
>> >> process?
>>
>> No simple answer to that one. You might want to multithread to keep a CPU
>> busy when another thread gets blocked, by a cache miss for example, or have two
>> threads working on the same data loaded into cache. Don't profess to be an expert
>> in that field.
>>
As Z... it depends. If you want one process to run as quick as possible the easiest approach was always a single thread. But if you code for multiple threads you can take advantage of multiple cores/CPUs. The trouble is it is complex if the threads need to share data - writing code that is efficient like this is not easy. But some applications lend themselves to multiple threads because there is no shared data - take video encoding for example. Which is why GPUs are also good at this sort of thing.
But multiple cores also make a system more responsive for multiple processes. The OS, and many other processes get CPU time and it makes the user experience so much better.
On an average PC, unless you're running something that has multiple threads that do not share data (like the video encoding example) then many cores might not be used. Even gaming might not use all cores.
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>> So is that what the advantage of multi-threading comes down to? The ability to parallel
>> process?
Signal processing can lend itself well to parallel processing - I've been wriintg stuff for WCDMA femtocells (eg. Vodafone Suresignal) which have chips with 200+ (relatively simple) cores:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PicoChip
Great fun :)
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Compilation aborted.
focusless.c:4 'wriintg' undeclared (first use in this function).
;-)
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An old, but quite good, paper about multi-threading.
tinyurl.com/a4nl76c
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>> focusless.c:4 'wriintg' undeclared (first use in this function).
I wish I could say my code is better than my English... :)
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Operating system on SSD - Zero
