Computer Related > Increasing RAM	Computing Issues
Thread Author: FocalPoint	Replies: 46

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:25   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

I've just bought the latest upgrade to a music notation program I use (Sibelius 7) on my PC and have loaded it and its large sound files that enable it to replay scores. The trouble is, I don't have enough RAM for the replay of complex scores. I have 2x2GB memory modules, which for some reason show up as 3.1GB. Having run a diagnostic test from the internet, it tells me I have 240-pin DIMM DDR2 PC2-5300 modules. So presumably I can replace the existing 2x2GB ones with 2x4GB. How easy is this? Is it just a matter of opening up the computer, pulling out the existing modules and plugging in the new ones (using an antistatic wrist-band, presumably)? Should I physically check the existing modules before I order? Why are some modules described as "buffered" and others as "unbuffered" - and which do I need? Sorry if these questions seem basic. I don't know much about the physical workings of a computer, but I have good DIY skills. Last edited by: FocalPoint on Sat 15 Sep 12 at 23:26 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:31   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

Your reference to 3.1GB showing up instead of 4GB almost certainly means you are using a 32 bit operating system, e.g. most domestic installs of Windows before Win 7, which is mainly sold in 64 bit form. 32 bit operating systems can only deal with a maximum of around 3.5 GB of RAM. The crucial memory selector will tell you for sure, and suggest exact parts to buy; but I suspect your OS (and probably PC motherboard) can't handle more than 3.5GB of RAM or thereabouts. www.crucial.com/uk/ Last edited by: spamcan61 on Sat 15 Sep 12 at 23:32 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:34   Increasing RAM - rtj70

>> I have 2x2GB memory modules, which for some reason show up as 3.1GB. This tells me you are running a 32-bit version of Windows. And that can access only 4GB max for memory. This is split 50:50 between user and system (kernel) space. So you can only use 2GB for all programs. A quirk of this means you sometimes see less than the full 4GB due to how Windows and device drivers works. So with your current system you cannot simply put 8GB in. If the system has a new enough CPU/motherboard it might take the memory but Windows your 32-bit Windows will see only 3.1GB! So do tell us: - Version of Windows including whether 32-bit or 64-bit (I think we know it is 32-bit) - CPU - Motherboard If the CPU is 64-bit then your solution is: - Install Windows 7 64-bit - Increase RAM (it's as easy as you suggest) Continue with the version of Windows you have and you'll see no more memory than 3.1GB on your PC. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:34   Increasing RAM - Zero

>> I've just bought the latest upgrade to a music notation program I use (Sibelius 7) >> on my PC and have loaded it and its large sound files that enable it >> to replay scores. >> >> The trouble is, I don't have enough RAM for the replay of complex scores. >> >> I have 2x2GB memory modules, which for some reason show up as 3.1GB. You are running Windows 32Bit. Windows 32 bit can only address 4gb of memory, windows is reserving stuff and taking up the 900 meg, leaving you with 3.1gb. So in short, unless you upgrade to Windows 64bit, you are wasting time and money increasing memory - It cant be used. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:42   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Sorry, guys - it's 64-bit Vista SP2. Not 32-bit. Should have said. I know 32-bit systems can't use that much RAM. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:44   Increasing RAM - rtj70

Doesn't make sense to me that it doesn't see the missing RAM. If it was less than the 900MB I'd ask if it has inbuilt graphics sharing some of the RAM. If this is 64-bit Windows then yes sticking in 2x4GB will work. Just make sure you get the right RAM. Might be little more to put in 16GB. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:45   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

INTEL Core2 CPU E4700. No idea about the motherboard. How do I find out? Last edited by: FocalPoint on Sat 15 Sep 12 at 23:47 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:49   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Answering my own question: ConRoe1333-D667. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 09:51   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

That mobo only supports 4GB of RAM, so I'm afraid a RAM upgrade is going to turn into a more complicated exercise. www.asrock.com/MB/overview.asp?Model=ConRoe1333-D667%20R2.0 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 11:19   Increasing RAM - rtj70

Explains why a CPU and operating system combo being 64-bit didn't see beyond 3.1GB. Crap motherboard. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 11:21   Increasing RAM - Zero

No not a crap motherboard, just one that is now quite old. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 12:47   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

SC, this seems ominous. The webpage referenced seems to state categorically that the motherboard will cope with only 4GB RAM and in fact will see less. (A computer-savvy friend of a while back could never understand why this was so - the specs confirm it and why. Thanks for the link.) So I'm wasting my time and money buying more RAM? No way round it? New computer? (Bad news if so. Hadn't budgeted for that.) Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 13:07   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

>> >> So I'm wasting my time and money buying more RAM? No way round it? New >> computer? (Bad news if so. Hadn't budgeted for that.) >> yes, no and I'm afraid so. - unless there are some configuration options in Sibelius that will reduce its appetite for RAM, sorry I have no idea if that's feasible. You could replace the mobo, processor and RAM but that's a big exercise, and probably not much saving over a new PC. :-/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 13:17   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Thanks to you and the others who responded. Bad news, then. Yes, you can configure Sibelius to produce poorer-quality playback that's less RAM-hungry, but it's not very satisfactory. From the Sibelius forum, people are saying 8BG is a minimum for large scores. Searching for new desktops with 16GB RAM produces some very expensive options. Oh well. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 14:57   Increasing RAM - smokie

Try a quick test of Readyboost - uses a USB stick as additional RAM. I'm not sure it works very well, doesn't seem to make a lot of difference on my computer, but it does increase the memory reported in device manager so might just extend your memory enough to allow the music files to be loaded - it could be that size is more important than speed... You could try it with a smaller USB stick and see if you think it's going to work before buying a large (?32Gb) stick. They are certainly cheap enough now. windows.microsoft.com/is-IS/windows7/products/features/readyboost Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 15:51   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

Worth trying the 'readyboost' thing suggested by Smokie, if you don't have one to hand USB sticks are dirt cheap now, under a tenner. In terms of new PCs then the ebuyer 'Zoostorm' range seem reasonable, cheap no frills machines, for example:- www.ebuyer.com/389051-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7873-1062 Probably only cost effective if your Vista is a retail copy that can be transferred to a new PC though. slightly wizzier core i3 version:- www.ebuyer.com/389052-zoostorm-desktop-pc-7873-1063 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 18:36   Increasing RAM - rtj70

For that sort of money you could get: - Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H (£73) - Intel Core i5 ~3GHz Quad Core (~£140) - Branded DDR3 8GB Memory (~£35) Total for an upgrade that is superior to the cheap eBuyer PCs is about £250. You could go Core i3 (and maybe use the older Sandy Bridge variant) and save money. Cheaper motherboards are available and worthy too. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 18:44   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

>> For that sort of money you could get: >> >> - Gigabyte GA-Z77-DS3H (£73) >> - Intel Core i5 ~3GHz Quad Core (~£140) >> - Branded DDR3 8GB Memory (~£35) >> >> Total for an upgrade that is superior to the cheap eBuyer PCs is about £250. >> You could go Core i3 (and maybe use the older Sandy Bridge variant) and save >> money. Cheaper motherboards are available and worthy too. >> Yeah, fair point, depends if one is up for a bit of PC surgery or not. I was looking for one of those bundles where you get mobo, cpu & heatsink pre assembled as one chunk, couldn't find a good value one from a quick Google. Last edited by: spamcan61 on Sun 16 Sep 12 at 18:46 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 19:32   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

It really makes me wish I had the experience to put stuff together like that to get what I want, but I don't have the time to attempt it and sort out the mistakes which I am certain I would make. My knowledge of how to deal with computer problems is extremely limited. Interesting to read, though. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 19:36   Increasing RAM - rtj70

I spend a fair bit more upgrading my old P4 system but I got what I wanted. Paid more for the motherboard because it meant the model I got would support MacOS X without any problems ;-) Try getting an Apple Mac for that sort of money. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 21:43   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Does this look like bothering with? tinyurl.com/9l8e5qz Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:05   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

Looks a bit boy racer to me :-), no idea about the company, but looks a reasonable price for what you get. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:13   Increasing RAM - rtj70

I'd want to know what chipset was used. Better still what motherboard. You could build that machine for less yourself. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:20   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

>> I'd want to know what chipset was used. Better still what motherboard. >> >> You could build that machine for less yourself. >> LOL, this aint hotukdeals ya know :-) A quick Google of similar specs produced this more rtj70 friendly alternative:- www.novatech.co.uk/products/barebones/bb-37704e.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:21   Increasing RAM - Focusless

If you're on a budget, here's one on ebay with non-Intel CPU, but it does have 6 cores and proper graphics card. Same memory and HD (and case!), for £90 less: tinyurl.com/8uo39cf Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:30   Increasing RAM - Focusless

>> If you're on a budget, here's one on ebay with non-Intel CPU Passmark figures are 8881 for the i7 vs 5564 for the AMD, which is obviously a significant difference. But I suspect the AMD would be plenty fast enough. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 22:39   Increasing RAM - smokie

He's short on memory and memory alone AFAIK. Doesn't buying a new machine seems overkill if Readyboost might work? It's probably just a poorly programmed app which needs to load everything at once rather than cutting it into smaller chunks. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 09:17   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

>> He's short on memory and memory alone AFAIK. Doesn't buying a new machine seems overkill >> if Readyboost might work? It's probably just a poorly programmed app which needs to load >> everything at once rather than cutting it into smaller chunks. >> Agreed, it's a lot cheaper to try first! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 09:33   Increasing RAM - Zero

Readyboost wont do anything for this app, and his use of it. He needs the memory because he wants to work with large files that need to be loaded into main memory. Generally readyboost is a waste of time anyway for anything Last edited by: Zero on Mon 17 Sep 12 at 09:33 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 10:32   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Well, I'll give Readyboost a go - no harm in that. But, given that the guys using Sibelius are talking about 8GB being a minimum for what I want to do (and I have only 3.12GB), I'm not very optimistic. It seems to me I shall have to get 16GB and for that it looks like a new machine, given that I can't see myself fiddling about with a new motherboard. I am due to start a MMus course in a week's time and I shall need to use the Sibelius program - though I can probably hold off buying anything for a while. Thank you for all your help and I'm pleased the topic seems to have generated some interest. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 10:50   Increasing RAM - rtj70

>> due to start a MMus course in a week's time So where are you based? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 10:53   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

I'm in the grand and glorious city of Hemel Hempstead and my college is Goldsmiths, south-east London. I shall be commuting. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 12:10   Increasing RAM - rtj70

I was just wondering if one of us with computer skills were near that could sort out helping you upgrade the current computer. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 12:41   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

"I was just wondering if one of us with computer skills were near that could sort out helping you..." Well, it's a lovely thought. I used to be able to call on someone to do this kind of thing, but as a result of changes in my situation I am no longer able to do so. (Nuff said.) If anyone could help I would make it worth their while. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Sep 12 23:49   Increasing RAM - Zero

Three of us wrong then! Use the crucial tool, it will tell you what dimms to buy, and just swop them out. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 16 Sep 12 15:09   Increasing RAM - rtj70

If all the other components are up to the job then a new motherboard plus memory is the cheaper option. You'd then get a board that you could upgrade the CPU to a newer one in future. A lot easier than you might imagine to do this. Basically keep disks, case, CPU, graphics, power supply etc. My Intel Z77 based motherboard is one of the midrange Z77 chipset based boards. But the lower end ones a good value and it takes up to 32GG RAM. But 8GB modules were expensive so I just put in 4 x 4GB which is plenty for me for now. www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/all/motherboards-intel/socket-1155-intel-z77 I hadn't looked to see what socket your old Core2Duo takes. Thinking about it, it's unlikely to be socket 1155 is it... it will be core socket 775. So you'd need to add a nice new Core i3 or i5 CPU too. Still cheaper than a new PC. Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 16 Sep 12 at 15:12 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 12:24   Increasing RAM - RattleandSmoke

The other issue with upgrading the board would be is technically if you have an OEM windows licence, you will need to purchase a new copy of windows. In reality if you do or not just depends, but it wouldn't be strictly legal. A cheap basic 1155 sandy bridge Celeron is a lot faster than most the 775 processors ever were, so if you're on a budget you could get a decent Z77 board and then a cheap processor until budgets allow. However if you were go down a new motherboard route I would get one which works with the new Ivy bridge processors. I built a PC for a customer a few weeks ago based on the I5 3570k, I got it running at over 4Ghz in a very stable condition. I clocked it back to 3.6Ghz when I handed it to the client, but he is still god smacked at how fast it is. In my opinion £ per Mips the 3570k processor is the best value CPU ever produced, even if you don't get much change out of £200!. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 12:29   Increasing RAM - rtj70

>> owever if you were go down a new motherboard route I would get one which works with the >> new Ivy bridge processors. Which is why I suggested the Z77 - the first Intel chipset to support Ivy Bridge :-) Which is why I got one but opted for a Sandy Bridge Core i7 2600K for now. Without overclocking my i7 2600K is very fast - and it overclocks nicely but I don't use although the processor is designed to overclock. Actually it usually runs at about 3.7GHz because it automatically overclocks itself. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 12:44   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

Crikey - this IS getting complicated! As regards the OS, maybe I should move to Windows 7 anyway, so buying a new copy of windows is a possibility. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 13:11   Increasing RAM - RattleandSmoke

You will need a 64-bit operating system anyway to see the extra RAM. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 17 Sep 12 at 13:12 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 14:51   Increasing RAM - spamcan61

>> You will need a 64-bit operating system anyway to see the extra RAM. >> FP has 64bit Vista already, but as we've both said, whether that will install or not on a new machine is unknown. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 13:17   Increasing RAM - smokie

Do you have Sibelius 7.03? "Sibelius now more reliably detects when it is running out of memory while loading sounds in the Sibelius Player, and shows a dialog giving you options for how to proceed." www.sibeliusblog.com/news/sibelius-7-0-3-update-now-available/ It won't fix your problem but may give more help. Also, just done some reading on the Sibelius problems with memory - they aren't all to do with the physical size, there are Windows settings which affect allocation of memory and it could be that some of these are inadequate. If you weren't on 64 bit Vista you could have tried the fix on this page, support.microsoft.com/kb/947246, but if you are deffo on 64 bit then I don't think that's worthwhile. I still think Ready boost has to be worth a punt, why wouldn't it work? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 13:25   Increasing RAM - Zero

> >> I still think Ready boost has to be worth a punt, why wouldn't it work? Because its a disk cache, not an increase in memory. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 13:52   Increasing RAM - smokie

OK< just read about Readyboost and it looks like I am probably wrong. OK, I AM wrong :-) I always understood it to be a form of additional memory... you live &learn... Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 14:36   Increasing RAM - FocalPoint

"Do you have Sibelius 7.03?" With respect, Smokie, you're a little behind on this one. The update you mention has been superseded by 7.1.2., which I have. And yes, there is a dialog(ue) which warns me I'm low on memory and gives me options to switch to smaller sound samples... which sound crap, frankly. It seems I am on 64-bit, yes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 14:14   Increasing RAM - rtj70

The suggestion of getting a motherboard using the Z77 chipset from Intel means: - You can put a newer CPU in it later, e.g. the Ivy Bridge ones. But I'd wait for the one after that. Ivy Bridge was mostly shrinking the transistors of Sandy Bridge and some other tricks to keep power down. - USB3 support There's other advantages too. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 17 Sep 12 13:27   Increasing RAM - Zero

>> The other issue with upgrading the board would be is technically if you have an >> OEM windows licence, you will need to purchase a new copy of windows. In reality >> if you do or not just depends, but it wouldn't be strictly legal. Depends on what hardware was purchased with the OEM license. Its not legally tied to system board. Reply to this message | Report message