Non-motoring > Right to die?	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Lygonos	Replies: 41

Mon 12 Mar 12 20:56   Right to die? - Lygonos

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17336774 Moral and legal minefield, obviously, but if I was in this poor guy's boots I'd agree with his sentiment 110% Mr Nicklinson, who communicates through the use of an electronic board or special computer, said before the ruling that his life was "dull, miserable, demeaning, undignified and intolerable"... ..."I can just about cope with life at the moment, but not forever." My gut instinct is that assisted suicide should be legal, but that every case should go through the full court process - none of the '2 doctors in agreement' crap like the Abortion Act requires. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 12 Mar 12 21:08   Right to die? - teabelly

To do the same to an animal would be considered unnecessary suffering and cruelty. Yet we can't euthanise a person that clearly has no quality of life and has said so. It's cruel to force someone to endure such living when they don't want to. At least coma patients are generally out of it but if you're conscious then you should be allowed to dispatch yourself or be assisted in same. To let someone suffer should be considered cruelty. Reply to this message | Report message       5

Mon 12 Mar 12 21:12   Right to die? - -

That poor fellow, unbelievably cruel fate. Of course the man should have the right to choose to end his own life, subject to the strict formalities and safeguards. I would want stringent guidelines through fully independent courts, something like this designed badly could lead to political interference heaven forbid...for when cost savings are needed for example....let alone the more obvious jiggery pokery where money such as inheritance might sway. It would never be safe to allow killing as such, a slippery slope indeed. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 21:13   Right to die? - Stuu

I think you need a painfully exhaustive process to make it sound, but, I think its right those who are of sound mind who want to die are given the right. There may not be many cases that make it through, but keeping people from taking their own lives in a secular society no longer bound by Christian ideas on suicide, its about time we took a more thoughtful approach to the extreme cases where it seems the most human thing to do for them. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 12 Mar 12 21:18   Right to die? - Lygonos

>>no longer bound by Christian ideas on suicide I think all the main religions are pretty much anti-suicide. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide Suicide bombers are to Islam what the IRA are/were to Roman Catholicism. Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 12 Mar 12 at 21:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 21:44   Right to die? - Bromptonaut

In a similar state and without mental capacity courts can authorise withdrawal of feeding. But where the guy has made a rational decision that he wants out the law says 'no way'. Kind of grim irony there. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:04   Right to die? - Manatee

I imagine countless stroke victims have been starved and dehydrated to death. My grandmother had a stroke about 30 years ago, and was badly paralysed. She lasted a week. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:06   Right to die? - Stuu

>>I think all the main religions are pretty much anti-suicide.<< This is a Christian country so far as the law goes. It has been illegal here since the 13th century though changes were made in the last 50 years to that. The notion that suicide is wrong prevails however. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:24   Right to die? - Westpig

It wouldn't be suicide though, would it? Someone would have to do it for him, I think that's the problem. Even if you could set up something his computer could activate...someone would have to do the whole lot, bar press the button on the keyboard. I do agree with him though. How would most doctors feel about killing someone off...when their whole ethic is to save life? They aren't vets are they. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:33   Right to die? - Zero

we should be allowed to make living wills, and they should carry the same strength as a normal will. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:25   Right to die? - Dog

If he was my father or brother and he truly did want to throw in the towel, providing there was zero chance of at least some sort of improvement in his condition - I would end his life for him. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:28   Right to die? - Westpig

>> If he was my father or brother and he truly did want to throw in >> the towel, providing there was zero chance of at least some sort of improvement in >> his condition - I would end his life for him. >> I admire that Dog....but....I couldn't do it. I'd never be able to sleep at night, perhaps that makes me a wuss. Now if it were a child murderer or something...i'd form an orderly queue to be the one to release the trap door....and would sleep like a baby. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 12 Mar 12 22:53   Right to die? - Lygonos

Even after future evidence proves innocence or enough doubt to quash a conviction? Not for me. Of course that never happened in the 900 years we had the death penalty. This poor guy on the other hand could always refuse food and water to die I imagine - but maybe he doesn't want to starve to death, and maybe he doesn't want to watch his family watch him take days or weeks to die either. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 01:01   Right to die? - devonite

Withdrawal of feeding is barbaric, you can last weeks without food,and know that you are suffering because of it. When I had my Dog killed, it was dead before the injection had been fully administered. It felt nothing, it sensed nothing and it knew nothing - except that it was being stroked. Thats how I would like to go if I was "Shell - bound". Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 07:43   Right to die? - Roger.

My body is my property - it does not belong to the state or some mad man-made controlling religion, of whichever deluded sky-fairy persuasion. It therefore follows that as it is solely mine, I may do what I want with it, including throwing it away if I wish. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 08:00   Right to die? - Focusless

But how do you stop someone else throwing your life away for you against your will? That's the tricky part, although you'd think something along the lines of Lygonos's suggestion in the OP should work. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 08:38   Right to die? - CGNorwich

"It therefore follows that as it is solely mine, I may do what I want with it, including throwing it away if I wish." And that is the legal position at the moment. Suicide is not illegal. The point in question is should someone else be allowed to kill you at your request. If you believe the answer is 'yes' then there are lots of questions that need to be resolved. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 17:24   Right to die? - FocalPoint

Refusing food and therefore dying of starvation is very painful, I understand. When my elderly father's dementia (or was it some kind of rational decision on his part?) led him to refuse food and drink in hospital the nurses told me he would be put on a morphine pump to ease his suffering. In a sense I suppose they helped him on his way. He lasted a surprisingly long time, but I don't think he knew anything about it, he was so heavily sedated. I was content for his life to end like that - the alternatives were non-starters. Last edited by: FocalPoint on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 17:25 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 08:47   Right to die? - Dog

>>I admire that Dog....but....I couldn't do it<< I'd have to be doubly quadruply sure that is what they wanted, and that there was absolutely no chance of some-sort of improvement in their condition. Like my ole mum, 88, I'm the 'baby' of the family, so the closest to her, she was on Warfarin, Digoxin, etc., etc., etc. she was in danger of losing a leg due to circulatory problems, she was 85% deaf, she said to me "I want to die", I told her to stop taking her pills - she died within one week. That was nigh-on 15 years ago now, and I don't regret it one bit, after all - what was the alternative :( Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 13 Mar 12 09:02   Right to die? - Dog

BTW Wp, I think the death sentence is too lenient for child killers - they should be made to suffer right until the very end - like Brady. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 09:00   Right to die? - Cliff Pope

>> If he was my father or brother and he truly did want to throw in >> the towel, providing there was zero chance of at least some sort of improvement in >> his condition - I would end his life for him. >> I have in the past shot a couple of dearly loved cats. One had had a stroke and her back half had collapsed so she couldn't even drag herself along the ground. The other was emaciated with untreatable abcesses and I knew the vet would put him down without a doubt. Neither as far as I knew wanted to die - or perhaps did, how do we know? But I judged that the kindess thing was to kill each, unexpectedly, while lying in their favourite spots in the garden. I was in tears. But I couldn't do it again, and I don't think I could do it to a human, except perhaps in a highly charged situation as in warfare where a horribly mutilated dying soldier is despatched quickly by one of his comrades. If I were the bloke in the article I'd like to imagine that someone kind would just simply kill me suddenly without warning, without consultation, without any fuss. But that is the most humane outcome which will never of course be allowed officially. Unofficially I expect doctors and nurses have always done it, but more rarely now as litigation and blame culture have taken over. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 09:22   Right to die? - Dog

>>Unofficially I expect doctors and nurses have always done it, but more rarely now as litigation and blame culture have taken over<< Absolutely! - 'they' killed my best friend (as I saw it at the time) he had advanced prostate cancer which had spread to his bones, he was screaming out in pain even though he was on diamorphine, so they gave him enough to kill him. I've come to terms with that decision now though, they did it out of compassion. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 11:26   Right to die? - Dutchie

The Netherlands where the first country to allow Euthanasia legally. There are very strict guidelines to follow by Doctors. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 13:19   Right to die? - Lygonos

>> - 'they' killed my best friend (as I saw it at the time) he had advanced prostate cancer which had spread to his bones, he was screaming out in pain even though he was on diamorphine, so they gave him enough to kill him Cancerous bone pain often responds very poorly to opiates (or most other painkillers), and severe pain is a very good stimulus to keeping breathing beyond the point where many would simply fall asleep and die. If a secondary effect of relieving intractable terminal suffering means the patient dies, then that is legally (and IMO morally and compassionately) perfectly reasonable. Palliative care has come on greatly in the past 20-30 years - people dying horribly is, fortunately, a very rare event nowadays. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 13:29   Right to die? - Westpig

>> If a secondary effect of relieving intractable terminal suffering means the patient dies, then that >> is legally (and IMO morally and compassionately) perfectly reasonable. Are you saying that it is legal to dose someone up so much for their pain, that they then die? I know i'm being a tad blunt...and in those circs I have no problem with those actions in the right circumstances...but i'm curious as well. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 13:53   Right to die? - Lygonos

>> Are you saying that it is legal to dose someone up so much for their pain, that they then die? Pretty much, yes. It depends, of course, on appropriateness - giving someone 300mg of morphine for a broken leg when 10mg would be plenty is obviously not ok. Giving someone with intractable pain in terminal illness increasing doses to relieve their pain that unfortunately accelerates their demise may be the best medicine has to offer the patient. Whenever possible these decisions are discussed with the patient and/or immediate family - or at the very least other colleagues. The important factor is intent - if the intention is to relieve suffering then manslaughter is only likely if the doctor is grossly negligent. If the primary intention is to end life then this is arguably murder. Good record-keeping and communication is vital to ensure openess and good clinical governance - there is no place for 'letting nature take its course' where this means the patient suffers needlessly - unless that is the patient's wish. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Cox_(doctor) This chap's intention was to relieve intractable, terminal suffering - the problem is his choice of treatment has only one use in the way administered - to cause near instantaneous (albeit painless) death. If the CPS and the court decided the lady died directly as a result of the injection he'd have been given a life sentence. As it is he received a suspended term and was back at work after the case. Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 13:57 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 14:00   Right to die? - Lygonos

....As her rheumatoid arthritis became worse, she pleaded with him to end her life. According to the hospital chaplain, 'When anyone touched her you could hear the bones move about in their joints. The sound will stay with me to the grave' Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 15:46   Right to die? - devonite

This is the bit I don`t quite think I understand, - >>since it was impossible to conclusively prove that the injection he gave killed her.<< He gave her twice the lethal dose! - it`s like saying you`ve killed someone by shooting them, but theres no proof that the bullet caused death! ??? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 16:03   Right to die? - Lygonos

...In Cox's view, he probably shortened her life by "between 15 minutes and an hour." This suggests that the patient was in the very last stages of her life - assuming the 'bronchopneumonia' on the death certificate was a valid diagnosis the patient may have been "in extremis" - coughing, confused, choking on her own secretions, and still utterly miserable with her ruined joints - in short extremely distressed. Whether the potassium chloride or the pneumonia was the cause of death could have been put to the court, and could have afforded a jury an easy acquittal that the CPS was keen to avoid? If the injection would take a couple of minutes to kill the patient, and the patient was at the point of imminently dying it may have constituted 'reasonable doubt'. Presumably why the charge was 'attempted murder'. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 16:03   Right to die? - Lygonos

...In Cox's view, he probably shortened her life by "between 15 minutes and an hour." This suggests that the patient was in the very last stages of her life - assuming the 'bronchopneumonia' on the death certificate was a valid diagnosis the patient may have been "in extremis" - coughing, confused, choking on her own secretions, and still utterly miserable with her ruined joints - in short extremely distressed. Whether the potassium chloride or the pneumonia was the cause of death could have been put to the court, and could have afforded a jury an easy acquittal that the CPS was keen to avoid? If the injection would take a couple of minutes to kill the patient, and the patient was at the point of imminently dying it may have constituted 'reasonable doubt'. Presumably why the charge was 'attempted murder'. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 16:52   Right to die? - Dutchie

If the patient was at the point of immimently dying what was the point of the court case? We are a strange species the way we behave to each other. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 13 Mar 12 20:04   Right to die? - Westpig

Thank you for your posts Lygonos. Yet more examples of those working where it matters not supported properly by 'the system'. Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 20:04 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 08:30   Right to die? - Cliff Pope

>> >> >> >> Whenever possible these decisions are discussed with the patient >> But that was partly my point. I don't want to discuss it with anyone, I just want someone who loves me to shoot me when I'm not expecting it. In these circumstances, obviously, he says hastily. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 08:47   Right to die? - Zero

>> But that was partly my point. I don't want to discuss it with anyone, I >> just want someone who loves me to shoot me when I'm not expecting it. >> In these circumstances, obviously, he says hastily. Messy, very messy. Someone has to clean that lot up. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 09:59   Right to die? - CGNorwich

"I just want someone who loves me to shoot me when I'm not expecting it." I've had a word with Angry Harry and its sorted. Ok he might not love you but he's good. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 14 Mar 12 12:59   Right to die? - Lygonos

>>Messy, very messy. Someone has to clean that lot up. Absolutely. My chosen 'out-shot' would include a fine whisky and hypoxia. www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhSzleWpHCs Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 13:27   Right to die? - Dog

When I was about 12 we had a game (for want of a better word) in my school whereby we would crouch down, breathe in and out rapidly, then hold our breath, stand up, then while we were still holding our breath, someone would give you a bear hug - squeezing quite hard, then you would collapse on the floor, unconscious. Is that hypoxia (or just crass stupidity) :} Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 14:01   Right to die? - Lygonos

>>Is that hypoxia ? Yes - by hyperventilating you get rid of carbon dioxide in your bloodstream (but don't store any more oxygen) - the presence of CO2 is what drives you to keep breathing usually, rather than low levels of oxygen. By holding your breath, the oxygen levels can then fall while the CO2 level remains low so you don't feel the urge to breathe - then you black out. By compressing the chest you probably also cause your heartrate to drop suddenly which further reduces blood supply (and oxygen) to the brain. There is potential for 'the fainting game' to cause brain injury or death ( 5 or 6 deaths per year in the US - usually children who are alone so maybe habitual 'self fainters') in certain people and is thus very strongly discouraged by schools! Edit: according to Wiki's article on the 'game' there are a few names out there for it... "The Fainting Game, Riding a Rocket, Airplaning, America Dream Game, Black Out Game, Breath Play, Bum Rushing, California Choke, California Dreaming, California Headrush, California High, California Knockout, Choking Out, Cloud Nine, Dumbass Game, Dying game, Dream Game, Dreaming Game, Elevator, Flatline Game, Flat Liner, Flatliner Game, Funky Chicken, Harvey Wallbanger, Hyperventilation Game, Indian Headrush, Knockout Game, Pass-out Game, Passing Out Game, Natural High, Sleeper Hold, Space Cowboy, Space Monkey, Suffocation Game, Suffocation Roulette, Teen Choking Game, Rising Sun, High Riser, Tingling Game, Trip to Heaven, Rocket Ride and Speed Dreaming, Wall-Hit, Purple Dragon, Five second high" Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 14:02 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 14:13   Right to die? - Dog

Wifey says she likes this one = Dumbass Game :) I would ask about the connection between suffocation and sex one tends to read about in quality red tops (like The Mail) but I wont, although I seem to remember Lud mentioning it in an off hand way in the distant past. :} Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 15:25   Right to die? - AnotherJohnH

Back on the subject of right to die, did anyone here catch Kate Allatt on the tele earlier today? She's one of the few who have (pretty much) recovered from being "locked in", and in a relatively short time too. Point being, if somebody asks you how you feel about life, and continuing living, a few weeks or months into being locked in with the expert opinion about you being "they'll never speak or walk again" (and this has been said in your earshot), will you "say" yes to end of life when if you were asked in a year or two you may be full of the joys? She's not the only one - there was an article in a sunday paper a few years ago about a guy who got his father back from a similar state: the guy didn't know what you "couldn't do". Years later the father died and a PM showed massive damage, the people who looked at it couldn't understand how he had been able to speak or walk again. Buzzword of the day is "plasticity" (in the context of the brain). Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 15:47   Right to die? - Dog

>>if somebody asks you how you feel about life, and continuing living, a few weeks or months into being locked in with the expert opinion about you being "they'll never speak or walk again" (and this has been said in your earshot), will you "say" yes to end of life when if you were asked in a year or two you may be full of the joys?<< That question did cross my mind while listening to the interview with Mr and Mrs Nicklinson on Radio 5 Live, Where there is hope, there is hope but, Mr Nicklinson has had locked in syndrome since his stroke in 2005 :( Also, the BBC article in the OP states that Mr Nicklinson says ""I can just about cope with life at the moment, but not forever and he just wants to know that, when the time comes, he has a way out". Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 14 Mar 12 15:58   Right to die? - Lygonos

The gold standard of patient involvement in medical matters is "informed consent". The patient needs to understand to the best of their ability the consequences of their choices, and the options available to them. If the chance of recovering from locked-in syndrome is in the order of a few percent, this may give hope to some, and not change the minds of others. What advances in understanding and treatment of brain trauma and disease will make in years to come is unknown. Locked-in syndrome tends to occur from quite specific brain damage, at the upper brainstem (but may be part of a much bigger bleed/injury). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome#Prognosis It adds to the debate - but does it detract from an informed choice of when to end your life, or whether a medic would be willing to assist? Reply to this message | Report message       1