A firearms training session ended in tears for a woman police officer after she was guided to a cabinet containing mucky books.
She was also upset by being asked if she wanted a pink gun, and by others on the course who were looking at pictures of a monkey masturbating (as you do).
Oh, and an instructor sent her a text to say he'd had a wet dream about her.
Typical coppers at play.
No one should have to put up with bullying, but I'm surprised, as a serving copper herself, she was not better prepared for what happened.
tinyurl.com/7jll3o3
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>>No one should have to put up with bullying
I think that's the nub of it. Badinage, or bullying? It's certainly being characterised as the second, and that's not trivial for normal people, and we'd like to think our police officers were mostly normal I think.
Yes she'll have been called worse by "customers", but that's not the same as being disparaged, belittled and by degrees humiliated by your own side, when you should be supporting each other.
I have worked with gits, and it wears you down and damages you if you let it go on. In general I'd remove myself from the situation rather than follow a grievance procedure, but if you want to be a police officer it's not easy to go and do it elsewhere.
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...Yes she'll have been called worse by "customers"...
What I meant was she should have known what other coppers are like in private with each other.
As someone who has had intermittent but regular contact with the police over many years, none of what happened on the training course surprised me.
A copper once offered to show me something indescribably filthy on his phone.
I declined, and told him he ought to consider arresting himself for possession of an indecent image.
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How can one report about one incident be classed as typical ?
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 3 Mar 12 at 20:55
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...How can one report in an obscure northern newspaper be classed as typical ?...
I'm not describing the report as typical.
I'm describing the behaviour of the coppers on the course as typical - in my experience.
Those who are/have been in the job may care to comment.
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Sorry I edited mine so that you didn't think I was having a pop at Journalistic standards which I wasn't.Haven't got the benefit of you experience so an argument is a non starter.
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When I was at school anyone with a brain was encouraged to go to university, anyone with half a brain was steered in the direction of a "good firm", anyone with a quarter of a brain was pointed towards Sandhurst and the rest were told to join the police...
:-)
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>> and the rest were told to join the police...
I can confirm that.
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Must have been really thick to end up with a tax payer funded gold plated pension. Really thick financial planning that.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 3 Mar 12 at 22:08
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>> Really thick financial planning that.
Aye there's the truth. The guys I knew who followed that route are all retired now on good secure pensions. Many of the rest of us however will never be able to retire. Not jealous you understand, not jealous at all...
:-)
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>> >> and the rest were told to join the police...
>>
>> I can confirm that.
>>
I own up to being in that category, if you include the armed forces. I was never going to be Grammar school material and was guided towards the Navy, and did reasonably well. I have never had a company car, but as I became more senior always had a car available to me if I required one and a helicopter in one job I carried out. I retired debt free with my own house and newish car on a comfortable pension. I was probably in situations that many would not dream of putting themselves in but it didn't do me any harm (character building) and I am happy with my lot.
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>> anyone with a brain was encouraged to go to university, anyone with half a brain was steered in the direction of a "good firm", anyone with a quarter of a brain was pointed towards Sandhurst and the rest were told to join the police... >>
In your schooldays days, was Sandhurst limited to the upper class children of peers, clergymen, naval and army officers? Also, was the idea of going to university limited to the middle and upper classes?
As for the police, I think class comes in to it too, even today. You will hardly ever find upper or middle classes encouraging their children to join the police.
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Hmm interesting. "Class" does seem to be a fairly peculiarly Englsh sociological measurement. It seemed to me and my peers growing up in Scotland to be a fairly irrelevant scale. Not to say that the human propensity to categorise didn't exist there too but it appeared on the surface at least to be measured and judged in a more egalitarian way with more emphasis on conduct, achievement and demenour than lineage or accent.
The school I went to ( which happened to be private ) also had a good number of bursary places for boys from families who could not afford the fees but who showed promise in some way. Thus a bright lad from a "working class" ( whatever that means, no one in my family has had the privelege of not having to work ) could avail himself of the allegedly "better" start.
So no, in short. I knew guys from titled families who didn't achieve much and others from far more humble backgrounds who flew academically or otherwise. It was very much part of the culture of that particular establishment to treat "all men as equals" until they gave you cause not to.
Maybe of course it's not just ( or even ) a nationalistic thing. I grew up in Edinburgh which has long been a fairly cosmopolitan place. The hustle and bustle of such a city rather forces you to rub along with others whoever they are. Likewise having lived in very rural communities also, the necessity to cooperate and contribute to the community does break down any real or imagined barriers. Recently though, we've lived in a small town. That seems to me to be the environment which engenders and fosters the worst of all social divisions. Small towns = small minded people in my admittedly subjective opinion.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 4 Mar 12 at 15:01
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Not only in the UK Humph class is judged the same in the Netherlands.I was born in a small village and your name was very inportant how people treated you.When we moved to Rotterdam different envirioment and people.My brother and me whent to a private school.My brother did very well in insurance and had his own bussiness.He retired young and did voluntary work for twenty years.Live is strange.
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>> >> You
>> will hardly ever find upper or middle classes encouraging their children to join the police.
>>
Perhaps they are put off by reports of "typical behaviour", like a kind of deliberate negative recruitment drive?
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What about Inspector Lynley?
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>> Those who are/have been in the job may care to comment.
>>
Police officers reflect society in general...the good and the bad.
The humour is an 'emergency services' humour, similar to the military.
Sometimes there is the odd bully, sometimes there is the odd po faced miserable humourless git....just as you'd expect.
From that report I have no idea whether the instructor was a bully..or the complainer was a miserable git.
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Just a theory I have:
Don't get what you want. Unable to meet the set standards. Taken to task over performance/discipline issues. Lets pull out the bullying, victimisation, sexism card. Its always someone elses fault. (Sound familiar?)
Yes there is banter and over a period of time anyone can catalogue a series comments or actions which COULD be construed as fitting the above. At the time they were given and taken in the spirit of the moment. But lets just log them, might come in handy at some time to get a big fat payout which will help me leave the job I didn't want to do anyway.
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It must be like that sometimes Fc. But we've all seen robust group behaviour tip over into something more pointed and unkind.
It's impossible when you read or hear about these incidents to be sure what has really happened, unless you were there. Those who hope to exploit arbitration regulations know this. But so do individuals hoping to get away with dubious behaviour.
I have to say in this case your view is persuasive. Pink gun indeed... tee hee!
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>>Yes there is banter and over a period of time anyone can catalogue a series comments or actions which COULD be construed as fitting the above. At the time they were given and taken in the spirit of the moment. <<
I have no sympathy with her whatsoever and the above quote says it all for me.
She should have been flattered to be in a group of men and addressed as 'Gents'.
To be accepted into any job or group as a person and not by gender is the best start she could have had.
It's banter, no more and no less, and to try and object on the grounds of discrimination does so much harm to so many other females who work through this and finally gain the respect of their colleagues.
Find a backbone woman, and give a bit back!
Pat
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...and give a bit back!...
That's my thinking.
The text message is a gift.
Had she given it wider publicity at the time, the woman could have portrayed the sender to his mates as a sad Jodrell Banker who can't get a lass.
But her choice was to squirrel it away to make an 'issue' of later.
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>> Just a theory I have:
But lets just log them,
>> might come in handy at some time to get a big fat payout which will
>> help me leave the job I didn't want to do anyway.
>>
It's no theory, it's fact a lot of the time. Can't answer for this specific case...but...over the 30 years I served, I can state:
- i've seen/heard of proper unpleasant over the top bullying on zero occasions*
- underhand/unpleasant behaviour that could be bullying, on several occasions
- incompetent staff who will never look at themselves as being the problem, so will
try to use some form of 'ism' as the reason for their misfortune....loads of times**
* just because I didn't see/notice it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen
** that only works of course if you have an 'ism' to fall back on
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In fairness to those whose jobs are publicly very visible, workplace unpleasantness is not uncommon in most environments. In a private firm it's just less noticeable to the outside world. Weak minded people in any environment which confers a little power on them are generally the most likely to cause problems for those over whom they hold it. It's a primitive reality and not confined to the police. Humans are stil not as civilised as they like to believe. Probably never will be.
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>> Humans are stil not as civilised as they like to believe.
You goddam ladies shoe wearing transvestite ;-)
Like that do you mean?
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Aye well, maybe I should try it ! Might be missing something. Any tips?
:-)
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Wonder if this was the masturbating chimp in question.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQPSoRPmoso
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 4 Mar 12 at 10:26
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What the hell were you googling to get to that RP?
:-)
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I watched the original show. I reckon that Vince is based on BBD.
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>> Wonder if this was the masturbating chimp in question.
Trying to wrack my brains as to a TV show some years ago where a bear interviewed people and his tallywhacker would pop out and make a random appearance. Some were absolutely horrified, others just burst into laughter.
EDIT - It was on Bo' Selecta!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Mar 12 at 17:56
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I think the lady has reason to complain.Wet dream about her?They must have been desperate to show off.There is a difference between banter and being vulgair.
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I'd just add two observations:
(a) Would we be happy for our daughters to be subject to the sort of stuff outlined in the report?; and
(b) If only those with the constitution to work in that environment need apply then a lot of otherwise excellent candidates are lost - an enormous waste of talent.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 5 Mar 12 at 16:19
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>> (a) Would we be happy for our daughters to be subject to the sort of
>> stuff outlined in the report?; and
If they are going to be staring down the barrel of a serious piece of firearm equipment in anger then i want them to be every bit as tough resiliant and solid as the hairy armed blokes working alongside them, no trembling or upset fingers wanted on a light trigger IMO.
There might be more to the robust mickey taking and rough banter in this sort of thing than meets the eye, sorting wheat from chaff maybe, they need to be able to rely on and work together in every scenario, i doubt the ARU's typical clients are into PC.
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As ever, there's a balance to be had...too much either way and it isn't right.
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>>(b) If only those with the constitution to work in that environment need apply then a lot of
>>otherwise excellent candidates are lost - an enormous waste of talent.
Well, you provide a very compelling argument, and I'm pleased to say I've never worked in that sort of environment, nor done a job like that.
But do we really want police officers - let alone armed officers - who are quite that sensitive? Maybe it's OK to deal with the worst sort of on-street abuse if your colleagues are nice to you. I'd be surprised if that made such a difference.
So on balance, I think your point (b) is lacking. And I certainly know some girls who aren't that much older than Miss B who can make me blush; so again now that the courts have ruled that it is acceptable for policemen to be addressed with the naughty f word I'm not that convinced by your point (a).
And honestly, being offered a pink gun, or being referred to as "gents"; get real. I've been in a professional environment where in a group I have been the only male, and been addressed as "girls". Similarly I've heard girls address a mixed group as "guys". And how often will a girl ask "do you have that in pink" when faced with a boy's toy - fishing rods, power tools etc. etc.
Having failed a course, do you think this woman wants to blame somebody else for her failing it, and perhaps is after a free pay cheque? Normal behaviour for state employees if we believe the Mail.
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>> Similarly I've heard girls address a mixed group as "guys". >>
I have some news for you:
" guys. Informal . persons of either sex; people: Could one of you guys help me with this? "
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People are pretty horrible when it comes down to it. Especially when in groups subject to internal peer pressure. I have a foot in both camps really, they shouldn't have bullied her but equally she shouldn't have reacted so badly to it when they did.
On balance though I'm probably slightly on her side. I don't have a lot of time for little men on a power trip however "normal" that behaviour may seem to them.
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Truth is we weren't there, so as I said earlier we don't know whether it's badinage or bullying. For all we know, she was laughing along and giving as good as she got at the time (though that wouldn't excuse it), or at the other extreme she might have been treated very badly. Things like that can be said with affection, or with great malice.
You shouldn't do it with people you don't know well though. It's a bit like swearing - nobody is ever going to be wrong if they don't do do it, which is the fail safe option.
Those who blame the WPC for playing the 'ist' card might also consider blaming the men for giving her the bullets to fire, in an organisation that is effectively obliged to be obsessed with diversity and isms.
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Addressing a combined group as 'guys' is fairly standard these days.
'Gents' and the pink gun comment are subsidiary. Its the porn cabinet and the comments about wet dreams and the like that go to the heart of the case. Of course you need the 'right stuff' in these roles but the idea that it's tested in any way by ability to accept sexist 'banter' is frankly a bit hollow. Proper exercises, role play, testing of reactions under stress al seem far more relevant than trying to perpetuate the 'jokes' that passed as OK in an all male environment in the last century.
The court case of the copper and the F word was actually pretty limited. The defendant used language you'd hear on the top deck of any London bus: 'I ain't got no effiin weed', that sort of thing. Bad language in front of a copper. If he'd called the cop an effin see you next Tuesday he'd have been banged to rights.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 5 Mar 12 at 19:18
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she should have decked one of them. Problem Solved. Acceptance guaranteed.
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As part of the last job I did had to go on a lifeboat survival coarse.Enjoyed the training lasted a week there where three women and five men.I wouldn't have taken the mickey out of any of the women we would have been decked not in a friendly way.>:)
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Despite my broadish upbringing, working where possible from 14 yo, playing rugby and getting on the P. The subsequent work in the construction industry etc. I cannot abide Blokeish behaviour when it entails uneducated crap and they're trying to outdo each other. The worst case is chaps who make stupid rude and lewd comments to others when you can reasonably presume that they are incapable of even pleasing themselves!
Don't do stag nights, not ever including the SIL's
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Well not really, but a classic example of what was said further up the thread about shouting "bully" when things go wrong !
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-17264840
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Typical coppers - Manatee
