www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16620288
I am not a Union beater as a norm however this really makes me scratch my head in disbelief.
Train driver throws a sickie so that he can go abroad and watch his team in Europe. Train is cancelled as a result. Gets caught, disciplined and demoted.
Union say this has resulted in a £20k salary drop and is unacceptable and are balloting their members on strike action in defence of their colleague.
So your colleague throws a sickie, inconveniences customers and probably yourself. He probably breaches the companies absence procedures, possibly claims sick pay fraudulently. Loses all integrity.
Now in many workplaces I reckon this could result in dismissal yet here we have the union defending his actions.
I hope that members see fit and do not vote for strike action.
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Agreed.
Grossly disproportionate penalty? Depends how any previous episodes have been dealt with, - if someone was disciplined for the same 'offence' in the past and given a warning without demotion then it is likely to be. If demotion has been applied before for the same then it would be deemed proportionate.
Many workplaces would be 'go straight to final written warning' or dismissal especially if it was in the written procedures manual for discipline.
Similar to workers stamping their friends' timecards - most employers view this as grounds for dismissal for gross misconduct.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 18 Jan 12 at 22:57
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Agree this is unacceptable behaviour of the driver.
I also get sick of some of the union stuff full stop. Someone on (Unite leader of sorts?) commenting on the doctors etc. An example was given of a consultant retiring at 60 with a pension of about £48k and a lump sum of £140k. My figures might be wrong as I was half listening. But I'd love to retire on that.
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Self-inflicted. If he valued his job he should have thought a bit harder before he did it.
In 2006 I went to an England world cup game in Germany. I was spotted and dobbed in, and questions were asked. I had gone with a business partner, and there was an instruction that nobody would accept any hospitality involving the world cup. Happily, I had paid my own way and got permission beforehand on that basis. Had I not, I would have been fired.
Slightly different circs, but you can't count on not being spotted :-(
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 18 Jan 12 at 23:33
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>>Union say this has resulted in a £20k salary drop and is unacceptable and are balloting their members on strike action in defence of their colleague.<<
Its not acceptable if your either the worker or the union charged with defending that worker, its a negative outcome and no such outcome is acceptable.
>>So your colleague throws a sickie<<
You go for it mate.
>>inconveniences customers<<
They dont matter.
>>and probably yourself.<<
He got to go and see his team play, doesnt appear it worked out too bad for him.
>>He probably breaches the companies absence procedures, possibly claims sick pay fraudulently. Loses all integrity.<<
Its not uncommon for people to take a sickie and he could have been too sick to drive a train, but ok to sit and watch a sporting event.
>>Now in many workplaces I reckon this could result in dismissal yet here we have the union defending his actions.
I hope that members see fit and do not vote for strike action.<<
Actually, its pretty hard to dismiss someone, even if they are terrible at their job, such a situation exists at my wifes work and they arent even unionised - the manager is begging for her to give him reason enough but she complies with the procedures while being terrible at her job.
The members would be wise to vote for strike action. Why? Because then it sets a precedent opening up to other members being able to do the same thing if they manage to reverse the sanctions. Worth a shot.
Sure, Im being a little sarcastic in my analysis, but the employer is there to be crushed in any and all circumstances, its not about the right or wrong of it.
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>> Union say this has resulted in a £20k salary drop and is unacceptable and are
>> balloting their members on strike action in defence of their colleague.
If it was a £20k salary drop, what on earth is a train driver's salary?
Incidentally, I was a life-long union member but my last employer excercised their right to not talk to a union representative so I got precious little protection from being a union member. As I said in another post, if we didn't like it we knew where the door was.
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...If it was a £20k salary drop, what on earth is a train driver's salary?...
Best part of a grand a week.
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>>what on earth is a train driver's salary?...
Some basic salary info from the BBC here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12497740 (February 2011)
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 07:34
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>> Some basic salary info from the BBC here:
...and more here, although I'm not sure of the date:
www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html
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What sort of job were you in? I thought once x% of a workforce joined a union the employer had to recognise them?
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How well organized are Scotrail if one absentee leads to "several train cancellations"?
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>> How well organized are Scotrail if one absentee leads to "several train cancellations"?
>>
It's not a case of lack of organisation, but a knock-on effect. Train drivers can only work on sections of the railway for which they can "sign off"; in other words they know the route almost literally blindfolded. It's not a case, like lorry drivers, of phoning up an agency and getting another bloke to cover.
The following is how I understand the workings, happy to be corrected.
If one driver doesn't turn in, the next available man is moved up the chain; if however he hasn't completed his allocated rest period or cannot get there for some time, the train has to be cancelled. This means that at least one set of rolling stock is now out of place. Since said train-set may be going onwards to another destination, this has a knock-on effect and ends up with several trains beiong cancelled, as well as possibly a couple of train crews being sent home (on full pay) because their allocated job no longer exists and they're rostered on a specific job the next day. It can cost a helluva lot of money to get things put right again ready for the next day's workings.
Because train drivers are highly paid, it follows that the train operating companies don't tend to keep spare staff hanging around the depot, as used to be the case in the old days of steam; furthermore since trains are no longer double-manned (no need for a fireman) then there's even less available flexibility.
The unions of course are fully aware of this and exploit it to the maximum.
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>> The following is how I understand the workings, happy to be corrected.
>>
>> If one driver doesn't turn in, the next available man is moved up the chain;
>> if however he hasn't completed his allocated rest period or cannot get there for some
>> time, the train has to be cancelled.
You can also call someone in off a rest day if they so wish. The "learning the road" is not such a big issue on commuter depots, they have a big pool of drivers all with the same current route knowledge.
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One driver is off sick and train cancelled.
Isn't that running a company on a shoestring? Blame the unions its all their fault..;)
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>> What sort of job were you in?
Automotive R & D.
Now I know a train driver's basic salary, I realise I chose the wrong profession. Every young boy's dream to be a train driver is obviously well founded.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 08:30
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Seems to be a good wage, no doubt theres downsides. I think arriva wales pay the lowest of the train companies so now doubt the rest are higher. Lots of competiton for the jobs though.
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>> Every young boy's dream to be a train driver is obviously well founded.
>>
Engine driver, I think, not a train.
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>>Engine driver, I think, not a train.
Train driver, I think, not engine. To most youngsters.
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"Engine driver" now slightly archaic. Technology and language moves on
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>>Train driver, I think, not engine. To most youngsters.
>>Technology and language moves on
That said, I can't seem to get used to Train station instead or Railway station.
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Quite right too. The station is part of the railway, not the train. So there...
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>> Quite right too. The station is part of the railway, not the train. So there...
You don't call a bus station a road station, do you.
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>>
>> You don't call a bus station a road station, do you.
>>
No, you call it a bus depot.
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>> >>
>> >> You don't call a bus station a road station, do you.
>> >>
>> No, you call it a bus depot.
Only if you are from Arkansas and pronounce it bus dee-po
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I imagine that the 39K basic is probably a fair way short of actual pay. I guess there will be shift allowances, unsociable hours, weekend / bank holiday pay plus a bit of overtime.
£50K+ looks easily achievable
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You may be a train nerd Zero, but others are railway nerds.
I don't like 'train station' either. It's an Americanism that our children have adopted, but I'm damned if I'm going to.
'Train driver' is less offensive, because modern trains look to me as if they don't always have an engine, but as if all or much of the rolling stock is powered by electric motors.
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>> You may be a train nerd Zero, but others are railway nerds.
>>
>> I don't like 'train station' either.
"I dont like it" is no qualification to determine if it is right, wrong or acceptable.
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All right: it's unacceptable.
Snort!
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Where does it state that if your on the sick you have to sit at home feeling sorry for yourself?
It does not our lot come back with a sun tan and have at least 6 months off with full pay.
This driver is been discriminated against because it's football, if he's unwell to drive the train which is a saftey critical post then he has the right to go on the sick, he may be fine to drive a car or go shopping and watch football.
The union is correct lets all strike.
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Bigtee is being satirical. I hope.
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If the guy was on prior sick leave with a problem that stopped him driving but otherwise OK then fair enough. But the BBC account suggests he reported sick from Hamburg.
Several years ago I had a few weeks signed off with an anxiety problem. Doctor told me to take a daily walk or bike ride. I'd have been pretty well placed if work had seen me out/about and tried to discipline.
OTOH if I rang in sick in a Spring day and went off biking.....
I think the expression is bang to rights.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 19:51
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It is "Off sick" not house arrest. However try it on and you should get busted. Difficult to prove though. I was off sick for six months while in the Navy, followed by six of light duties. My colleagues knew I had a physical problem that would not be obvious to anyone not in the know.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 19:55
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Reminds me of the on the sick copper who was seen on national television running the line at a Wembley cup final.
His force - Durham - backed him, let alone the federation.
He was last seen being chased by a handful of hacks and snappers as he left Durham City police station following an interview with his superiors.
Despite being medically unfit for police work, he easily outpaced us lot.
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Any idea what he was suffering from Iffy?
A ON says sick leave is not house arrest and, particularly if the illness is not physically debilitating Doctors will advise exercise.
Only had one sick spell more than four days - the absence referenced above. Could ride the bike as well as I can today; the problem was stopping worrying long enough to get it out and get on it.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 20:39
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Bromp,
From memory, you are on the right lines.
Spoils the story a bit, although we carried the force and federation explanation, so the reader could make up their own mind.
And I accept there may have been something in it.
There's certainly a mental as well as physical dimension to my return to work after the hip op.
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Spoils the story a bit, although we carried the force and federation explanation
Included in a micro-dot at the end of para 3 ?
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...Included in a micro-dot at the end of para 3 ?...
No, headline news.
I believe the story broke in a Sunday paper, so Monday's follow-up was 'force and federation backs sick copper linesman'.
Apart from anything else the federation is known to be prone to litigation, so any story which portrays a copper in a bad light is done more carefully than one, say, about a bus driver.
Shouldn't be the case, but that's the reality.
Same applies to stories about teachers, but to a lesser extent.
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>>
>> >> Every young boy's dream to be a train driver is obviously well founded.
>> >>
>>
>> Engine driver, I think, not a train.
>>
Sorry, my mistake.
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>> Sorry, my mistake.
>
Very few engines at Euston these days. Sleepers, the 'Pretendolino' and the odd rescue loco. The rest are EMU trains.
robertbeardwell.deviantart.com/art/Pretendolino-152895382
And yes I know its a DVT at that end - the propelling class 90 is at the back/
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 22:22
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As most train drivers I meet are miserable short tempered so and so's, its not an enjoyable job.
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>> As most train drivers I meet are miserable short tempered so and so's, its not
>> an enjoyable job.
>>
No no Robin, don't do it, you mustn't...;-)
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No, Seriously, I wouldn't if I were you.
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I was diagnosed as having german measles when I was working in an environment with lots of young women (down BBD). The GP signed me off and I went home and started painting the outside of the house.
Then the boss turned up, I came down the ladder and offered him a coffee, but he wasn't happy.
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>> I was diagnosed as having german measles when I was working in an environment with
>> lots of young women (down BBD). The GP signed me off and I went home
>> and started painting the outside of the house.
>>
>> Then the boss turned up, I came down the ladder and offered him a coffee,
>> but he wasn't happy.
>>
My son has it in the reverse.
He currently works part-time in a national fast food chain to earn some spending money while at college. He had a stomach bug, with the usual nasty symptoms, and took a day off sick. When he reported for work the following day he was promptly sent home as it is a Envronmental Health requirement that he must be clear of all symptoms for at least 48 hours, IIRC, before he could be allowed to work in food retailing due to the risk of onward transmission; quite logical, really, but he felt a fraud sitting at home feeling otherwise fit and healthy.
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There is the other side of the coin.Nice article.
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Work for those who don't know i work for the Railways in a safety critical post same as train drivers.
About 4 years ago i had real bad back ache my doctor said take up swimming to ease the pain i thought he was crackers but he was spot on i took 5 weeks off, i was able to walk and swim but bending down was painfull, work WOULDN'T have let me come back without it been corrected.
This guy may have wanted to watch football but his illness may have prevented him from driving the train safely.
I stand by him untill it's proven he was in the wrong.
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>>
>> I stand by him untill it's proven he was in the wrong.
The Union admit he was in the wrong, he admits he was in the wrong, and the company say he was in the wrong.
All the union is arguing over is the extent of the disciplinary action.
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Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 21 Jan 12 at 16:20
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Culture in my business is that unless you are in imminent danger of death you carry on and even then it would be suggested that you might at least answer your emails ! As for striking, well it just doesn't happen. While the legality of such action is well known it would be a serious career mistake to even theaten it.
My brother-in-law works ( sic ) "on the railways". He has had a minimum of 3 months off "sick" a year for as long as I can remember. He has had something wrong with most parts of his body at one time or another but remarkably enough despite that continues to be an accomplished county squash player and a very decent golfer. His latest "sore arm" or whatever it was supposed to be this time made it impossible to work for most of last Autumn but didn't prevent him riding his Ducati to and round the Nurburgring while it was recovering.
Purely coincidentally of course, his ailments always seem to strike him down a few days prior to his holidays and believe it or not, if he can prove that he was unfit for work while on holiday, he gets the holidays again when he returns !
No wonder train fares are the price they are !
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sat 21 Jan 12 at 15:05
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Nice anekdote Humph.When I grew as a kid one of our neighbours was a Tallyman working on the docks.
Every summer he was of for months with various ailments.He used to be sunning on the balcony.From his work they used to pop round with a bunch of flowers.
He used to laugh how he could beat the system.
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>> Nice anekdote Humph.When I grew as a kid one of our neighbours was a Tallyman
>> working on the docks.
Hey Mr Tallyman, tally me bananas ............
:-D
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I was told way back in the 70's that tallymen were extremely well paid.
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None of this is union madness, these companies have allowed themselves to have the P taken by paying people not to work, its gone on in the public sector for ever, little surprise ex nationalised industries are staffed with a proportion who wouldn't make the private sector grade.
My job now being correctly salaried does mean we get full pay if ill, probably the last company in my industry to do so, yes there are a handfull of P takers who regularly throw sickies and should they stub a toe, oh dear, sooner or later the sick pay will be withdrawn and they'll whine about it till the cows come home.
Do others who work with those who swing the lead not feel annoyed or is apathy at epidemic levels now.
Maybe need some new management at the helm, those with a full set should apply.
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He was well paid Clk this was working in the docks in Rotterdam.Also full pay when he didn't work.This was in the sixties.
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Some jobs were very well paid in those days, Dutchie. Particularly car transporter and tanker drivers.
Now it's train drivers and doctors.
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I was surprised how much car transporters earn.Good luck to them.
One of my first jobs after leaving school was on a building site.We used to put the central heating systems in big flats.The plasterers where the big earners but they grafted non stop.
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>> Some jobs were very well paid in those days, Dutchie. Particularly car transporter and tanker drivers.
Thay still are in some cases, though the big difference between these jobs and the ones talked about in this thread is that you only get paid by delivering, sit in cafe or don't turn up you earn nothing.
I earned good top lines in my years on car transporters, but only by doing 2 weeks work in one.
Everyone should be on results related pay, or piece work.
Much of the population would be paying the employer or taxpayer.
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I recieved voluntary redundancy from BP.Can't complain but I didn't want to retire at 53.
Joined a small company two weeks on one week off.The son of the director in charge good at giving orders but not a clue how to handle men.The job could be dangerous handling ropes and working in the boat on the Humber.We where most of the time understaffed and on 24hr call.I could have left any time but supported children with the extra I earned.Soft touch.>;)
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Union Madness - Lygonos
