Non-motoring > Smart Meters Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Meldrew Replies: 218

 Smart Meters - Meldrew
I understand that Smart Meters are going to be rolled out (That's introduced in English) and I am wondering what they are going to achieve. I understand that they have the capability of transmitting readings the suppliers for calculating of bills. That's useful, unless you are a meter reader.

I am told that they will help me monitor and control my fuel use and I can't follow this. I live in a small well insulated semi and I control my consumption by using low energy light bulbs, switching off lights in empty rooms, keeping the heating thermostat at about 18C and using draught strips and excluders. Can't see how a meter can do a better job!
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
Gas and electric prices should come down.I like to keep warm nothing worse than sat in the cold.

Smart meters I can't see the point.I don't turn radiators off in bedrooms the whole house is heated.We have energy bulbs double glazing and cavity walls insulated.We got the insulation free in the loft to top up.A government scheme.Isn't 18c a bit low Meldrew? Keep warm.
 Smart Meters - Bromptonaut
National Audit Office were less than wholly convinced....

www.nao.org.uk/publications/1012/smart_meters.aspx
 Smart Meters - Slidingpillar
The point of a "smart meter" is to enable the electricity company to put up the price when demand is high. Got nothing to do with user abilities.

After all, you don't need qualifications or a meter to switch a light off!

Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Tue 17 Jan 12 at 13:44
 Smart Meters - Meldrew
Thanks Dutchie! 18 is the temp at which my Help the Aged wall thermometer says "Cool - turn up your heating" and 21 is the "Ideal Temperature". I live with Cool and a good sweater. My bedroom is a temperature disaster area!! It is above a concrete garage, has 3 outside walls and a pitched roof with no loft. Last week the temperature in there was 8 when I went to bed! Electric blanket, jim jams, bed socks and very good goose down duvet have that sorted..
 Smart Meters - Pat
What a picture;)

Pat
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Isn't 18c a bit low Meldrew?<<

17c in my owse Ducky :)
 Smart Meters - Meldrew
Too warm for a kennel IMO >:)
 Smart Meters - Dog
Ruff!
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
You Brits must have warm blood .I like to be warm wimpey Dutchman.>)

8c is cold Meldrew.
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
Meldrew just being nosy.Where do you travel in Holland to family?
 Smart Meters - Meldrew
Yes 8C is cold but not if you are in a nice warm bed! I am going to Keukenhof and Floriade in April and pass through Holland at other times en route to Germany. I spent 6 years at an RAF base just across the border from Venlo and I always did my shopping, eating and drinking on the Dutch side of the border
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> Yes 8C is cold but not if you are in a nice warm bed!

8c is cold even WITH a warm bed. The house is at 20-21c with the bedroom being 17-18c. Gets hotter in the summer of course, no aircon.
 Smart Meters - Dog
But that 17c is without any heating whatsoever, so (in my mind) I'm getting one over on them!

Mind you, I've still got 55 bags o' Taybrite left out of the 60 I bought at summer prices last August,

I'll put them with me winter tyres.

:D
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 00:37
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
What is Taybrite Dog? You might still need wintertyres Dog a couple of months to go yet,before spring.

 Smart Meters - Dog
Smokeless fuel Dutchie ~ www.coalproducts.co.uk/content/taybrite

Ne'er cast a clout till May be out!
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
Smokeless fuel I see just save it Dog never wasted.March is usual gales like you say wait till may.We have gas central heating and a electric fire in the living room coal fire effect posh..:)


My grandma or opoe as i used to call her used turf as fuel.They also used to cook on the fire in winter Time moves on.
 Smart Meters - Dog
They used to burn Peat here in Cornwall and many other parts of not-so Great Briton, Dutchie.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat

Turf/Peat - same thing :)
Last edited by: Dog on Tue 17 Jan 12 at 15:12
 Smart Meters - Bromptonaut
>> They used to burn Peat here in Cornwall and many other parts of not-so Great
>> Briton, Dutchie.
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat
>>
>> Turf/Peat - same thing :)


Still gathered by hand and burned in NW Scotland. Love the smell....

Ireland I think tried burning it for electricity - probably not really hot enough though
 Smart Meters - Dog
My friend Laurie (up on Bodmin Moor) used to burn dead Gorse wood, we'd go out daily with his barrow and come back with it piled high,

Didn't alf gum his flue up though!
 Smart Meters - Harleyman

>>
>> Ireland I think tried burning it for electricity - probably not really hot enough though
>>
>>

Tried running their steam engines on it too.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CI%C3%89_No._CC1
 Smart Meters - Gromit
CC1 was designed expressly (pardon the pun) to burn turf, Ireland having plenty peat bogs but - until it closed - only one viable coal mine, the latter in Arigna, Co. Roscommon.

During the war, however, most CIE locomotives were run - at greatly diminished efficiency - on turf, as Ireland could no longer import sufficient coal from England.

Returning to topic, there were smart meters of a sort in use in France when I worked there as a student 20 years ago. A red/green lamp was wired to the meter; it turned red when demand on the grid peaked, and any electricity used during that period was billed at a higher rate.

How EDF worked out how much of your bill to charge at the higher rate I have no idea...

EDIT: Aha! Sherlock has the answer below...
Last edited by: Gromit on Tue 11 Aug 15 at 12:53
 Smart Meters - Dutchie
Ok Mr Peat I bow to your greater knowledge. >:)

 Smart Meters - Roger.
22C is considered comfortable where no physical activity is concerned, at least according to our car's climate control instructions.
I find, in the UK, that around 21 +- C is OK for sitting watching TV, or using the laptop - in Spain we set our air-con in the bedroom to 22C to let us sleep comfortably in summer.
I would find 18C seriously chilly!
 Smart Meters - R.P.
Funnily enough I found out today that 16 degrees is considered sufficient by the HSE for workplaces where there is no rigorous physical activity.
 Smart Meters - Bromptonaut
>> Funnily enough I found out today that 16 degrees is considered sufficient by the HSE
>> for workplaces where there is no rigorous physical activity.

Pretty close to the sixty Fahrenheit I recall being told when we complained the office was cold in 1978!!
 Smart Meters - Dave_
When speccing radiator sizes for a house, there are target temperatures for the different rooms: 21°C for a living room, 20°C for a kitchen or bathroom, 18°C for hallway and bedrooms. The rads have to have a high enough output to maintain that temperature when the outside temperature is -1°C.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 17 Jan 12 at 19:39
 Smart Meters - Lygonos
>>Ne'er cast a clout till May be out!

Actually refers to the flowers on the hawthorn rather than specifically the month of May.

Not a lot of people know that.

*wanders off mumbling*
 Smart Meters - Dog
Course I knows that now I'm a country bumpkin but, when I was a townie I believed it referred to the Month :)
 Smart Meters - R.P.
No need to be too dogmatic about it.
 Smart Meters - Dog
He was officially English BTW (David George)
 Smart Meters - Fullchat
My Franco Belge stove has been having some issues with cracking firebricks. Seems that Taybright burns too hot due to its high petroleum content and that I should be burning Phurnacite :-(
 Smart Meters - Iffy
Some cheaper coal - high petroleum content as above - will melt/buckle the grate of an open fire.

 Smart Meters - Dog
From my experience of burning both Taybrite and Phurnacite, I would say that the latter burns hotter than the former,

But I would ask your supplier F/c. (or the manufacturer)
 Smart Meters - Iffy
...I would say that the latter burns hotter than the former...

When I looked into this for the fires at Iffy Towers, I was told it was the high petroleum content, rather than the high heat, which caused the problem.

"Wrong type of heat" sounds like a British Rail excuse, but that's what a couple of merchants reckoned.


 Smart Meters - Dog
I find Taybrite is ideal for my Cottager stove www.capitalsw.co.uk/stoves/cottager.htm

It does put out some heat though, wifey bought some large church (type) candles to go in the inglenook - they melted!

My brother who has (supposedly) Alzheimer's said "wooden tit be better to put them in the fireplace in the Spring when the fire is not in use" :)
 Smart Meters - Iffy
...I find Taybrite is ideal for my Cottager stove...

There's a bit more to burning solid fuel than chucking something black and sooty on the grate and setting light to it.

So as you posted earlier, Fullchat would be well-advised to contact the manufacturer of his stove to find out what they recommend.

 Smart Meters - Fullchat
From the horse's mouth:

3.1. Fuel
Recommended fuel : Wood
• Use hard wood logs, which have been cut for at least
two years and stored, under shelter.
•Hardwood has a higher calorific value per cu metre (oak, ash, maple, birch, elm, beech, etc.).
•Large logs must be split and cut to a usable length, before being stored in a sheltered and ventilated place.

Recommended fuel : Coal
•Smokeless fuels, including coolite nuts, phurnacite, ancit and extracite.

Not recommended as fuel :
•“green wood”. Green or damp wood reduces stove efficiency and soils the glass, the internal walls and the flue (soot, tar, etc.).
• “used timbers”. Burning treated wood (railway sleepers, telegraph poles, offcuts of plywood or chip board, pallets, etc.) quickly clogs the flue ways (soot, tar, etc.), pollutes the environment (pollution and smell, etc.) and cause the fire to burn too quickly and overheat.
•“Green wood” and “recovered wood” can eventually cause a chimney fire.
• Prohibited fuel : Homefire and any form of bituminous coal or petroleum based coke.
 Smart Meters - Iffy
...Prohibited fuel : Homefire and any form of bituminous coal or petroleum based coke...

Tut-tut, looks like you've been burning a prohibited fuel.

And you being a law enforcer an' all. :)


 Smart Meters - Fullchat
Retired :)
 Smart Meters - Rudedog
Sorry to bring this thread back to life (shows that I did search first!)

There are now loads of radio adverts announcing that Smartmeters are about to be rolled out very soon, why has this taken so long?

I have my reservations about them, will they be mandatory?

How do they transmit the data back to the gas/electricity company?

If I change suppliers will they change it to one of their own?

What's in it for me?
 Smart Meters - The Melting Snowman
I think they still have to have a physical presence to detect the reading but the person can be in a van driving slowly down the road. The savings here are for the supplier, which will of course be passed on to the consumer.
 Smart Meters - The Melting Snowman
This link is useful: www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/smart-meters-explained/#step2
 Smart Meters - Manatee
I had a new meter about 15 months ago - not a smart one. Seems daft to do the job twice.
 Smart Meters - Focusless
>> Seems daft to do the job twice.

Not if it saves them money :)
 Smart Meters - sooty123
Hopefully it'll stop faffs when changing suppliers. We're in a 'reading dispute' still 8 months after switching suppliers.
 Smart Meters - R.P.
They can record usage in real time. I won't touch them unless I'm forced to. Dealt with a lot of "issues" with them at the CAB. Misreading, overreading, undereading...
 Smart Meters - sooty123

>> Dealt with a lot of "issues" with them at the CAB. Misreading, overreading, undereading...
>>

Brilliant so no great improvement...
 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope
>> They can record usage in real time.

Isn't that what an ordinary meter does? If I watch my meter I can see the numbers clocking up and could calculate the useage since I last read it. If the wheel is whizzing round I know whatever I have switched on is using a lot of electricity.

Perhaps an audible meter would be a useful economy device?
 Smart Meters - Rudedog
I'm sure I heard that one Euro country had put the brakes on them because the usage data was being passed onto third parties by the utility companies and the user had no say in this.
 Smart Meters - R.P.
Sorry, should have been clearer they can feed readings back to suppliers in real time. There is a concern by a national Charity that suppliers can and will use it to ration supply to people in fuel debt/poverty, reducing amperage at a time so that they can't consume energy at a particular time of day for instance. Don't know how real that fear is but the charity in question has made reference to it.
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
Smart metering wouldn't have happened without Government finance, subsidies and regulation.

There is no standalone business case.
 Smart Meters - sherlock47
Smart meters can allow smart billing.

In France there is an (optional) multi level Tariff (Tempo) that includes 22 days a year when electricity is supplied at a penal rate ( about 6x) in an attempt to reduce peak demand. Commonly known as red days. The meter displays a red indicator the night before . I believe only happens in winter, but with the rise in air con, global warming, and planned maintenance there is no reason it could not be used at any time.

Most people arrange to go out, visit friends and turn off anything other than the smallest light!

 Smart Meters - smokie
This initiative is/was in the UK whereby electricity was free (or nearly) at off-peak times to encourage people away from peak times and to smooth demand.

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2583797/How-free-electricity-Saturdays-turned-Jenny-1950s-housewife.html

Smart meters were required to differentiate the usage by day.
 Smart Meters - Manatee
>>In France there is an (optional) multi level Tariff (Tempo) that includes 22 days a year
>>when electricity is supplied at a penal rate ( about 6x) in an attempt to reduce peak demand.

I'm surprised they need to manage demand so acutely, as they are a failry major exporter of electricity. Maybe it's just sensible anyway.

French capacity is about 80% nuclear I think. At time of low domestic demand, France supplies UK and other countries with electricity - nuclear is almost fixed cost, the fuel cost is very low. Right now we are getting 2GW or about 6% of our power from France.

www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Our own nuclear supply varies little from about 7GW and the supply is managed by turning the gas and coal generation up and down.

My instinct is that we could really use smart meters to manage demand given that we are likely to be short of capacity quite soon.
 Smart Meters - Zero

>> My instinct is that we could really use smart meters to manage demand given that
>> we are likely to be short of capacity quite soon.
>
We are already in the "short capacity" period. There has in the past been an over supply with available power well beyond high peaks. Now it is much closer, but we have much more "instant"* power capability than before, and consumption in the UK has been falling since 2005.


*Instant being a relative term, some of it is, and some if it is with a few hours notice. Certainly we have more control over moving supply up and down than we ever did with coal fired plant.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61
>> Smart metering wouldn't have happened without Government finance, subsidies and regulation.
>>
>> There is no standalone business case.
>>

An insane waste of 12 billion plus of taxpayer funding, for little purpose - save the capability to remotely disconnect the supply of individual consumers, which is thus presumably the intended purpose.

Physically ripping out millions of perfectly usable 'dumb' meters to replace them with so called 'smart' meters, which rely on 2G cellular to relay the meter readings back to the supplier - well let's hope we still have 2G coverage in 1-5-10-20 years then!

In terms of real time usage monitoring you can buy (at much lower cost) or even borrow from the local library one of several different meters which clamp to the incoming supply and send the data to a display unit conveniently located for the user, so 'smart' meters don't bring anything new to the party there.

I don't think there is an agreed single interface standard for these things between suppliers (HMG didn't even manage to force that on them) so if you change energy supplier then there's no guarantee your new supplier will be able to interface to your 'smart' meter, so then you just have an expensive 'dumb' meter.
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
>>An insane waste of 12 billion plus of taxpayer funding, for little purpose

That'd be it.

But more vested interests than you can possibly imagine were involved.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
>> >>An insane waste of 12 billion plus of taxpayer funding, for little purpose
>>
>> That'd be it.
>>
>> But more vested interests than you can possibly imagine were involved.
>>

What sort of vested interest?
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
Sorry Sooty, I thought I'd already replied to this.

Its difficult to be specific, because I was involved. All the parties stood to make money and/or save money out of it proceeding. Due to the Government investment, there was no cost to the industry.

So much to their advantage in fact, that the suppliers and those involved were the ones campaigning for it to be done.

The Government got all carried away by the romance of advanced technology and lost sight of reality.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
>> Sorry Sooty, I thought I'd already replied to this.
>>

You probably did my first post dissappeared into the ether.


>> Its difficult to be specific, because I was involved...

Cheers for that.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> Sorry, should have been clearer they can feed readings back to suppliers in real time.
>> There is a concern by a national Charity that suppliers can and will use it
>> to ration supply to people in fuel debt/poverty, reducing amperage at a time so that
>> they can't consume energy at a particular time of day for instance. Don't know how
>> real that fear is but the charity in question has made reference to it.

I'm not sure that is technically possible with the smart meters being installed. There is a a lot of FUD being spread around, some of it very suspect indeed.
 Smart Meters - madf
>> Sorry, should have been clearer they can feed readings back to suppliers in real time.
>> There is a concern by a national Charity that suppliers can and will use it
>> to ration supply to people in fuel debt/poverty, reducing amperage at a time so that
>> they can't consume energy at a particular time of day for instance. Don't know how
>> real that fear is but the charity in question has made reference to it.
>>

Impossible unless the Smart Meter can do it. The Grid cannot.
 Smart Meters - Bromptonaut
>> They can record usage in real time. I won't touch them unless I'm forced to.
>> Dealt with a lot of "issues" with them at the CAB. Misreading, overreading, undereading...

Have CAB sent you on one of the courses run by NEA? I was more or less instructed to attend.

Came back from hols today though to discover I'd passed the C&G exam in Energy Awareness.
 Smart Meters - BrianByPass
This
www.smartenergygb.org/get-a-smart-meter/will-it-cost-anything
says that the cost will be borne by the energy consumers.
Even if the "Government" subsidised the scheme, that just means it is the taxpayers paying for it.

Someone asked further up how a smart meter differs from taking readings from his old-fashioned meter. See here for an explanation
www.smartenergygb.org/what-are-smart-meters/what-smart-meters-do/how-smart-meters-work

Another question was about the real-time aspect of the meters.
They have a wireless system built in which will send data within your home to your display hub.
They also have a SIM card in them and will send data by cellular means to the Data and Communications Company.
"You can choose:
- how often your smart meter sends data to your gas and electricity supplier (monthly is minimum, daily or half-hourly are optional)
- whether to share data about your energy use with other organisations, like switching sites
- if your supplier can use your meter readings for sales and marketing purposes"
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Tue 11 Aug 15 at 12:41
 Smart Meters - smokie
When they install Smart meters which can measure the flow both ways they will be able to correctly pay solar panel users for their export - this is currently done by assuming half of what is generated is exported. This will be a very small benefit though.

I do see a personal benefit to remote reading, the way it works for me at the moment is I get an email request to read the meters which I usually do within a day, then submit on the web. About 6 working days later a meter reader comes along. Both events require me to shift all the gubbins from under the stairs so we can access the meters.
 Smart Meters - Crankcase
Entirely anecdotal, but:

Mother dear has some sort of smart meter with a display logging consumption/cost. She never turned it on, so one day I set it up for her, showed her how much things were costing. She shrugged and said "they cost what they cost" and it's not been turned on since.

For me, we borrowed one from the library that did a similar thing. I spent a happy weekend carefully discovering the fridge cost 50p an hour or whatever, then mentally shrugged and said "they cost what they cost", and that was the end of my interest in it.

If one were really watching the pennies I guess it lets you have the option of being cold and dark, but knowing you've saved a couple of quid, or being warm and civilised but stressing out in infinite detail about the price.



 Smart Meters - rtj70
I've got a smart type meter to monitor power use. It is how you say - it costs what it costs. But I find this handy...

... Working from home I have an indicator when the oven has warmed up to put the food in (power usage drops to the 'normal' level) and likewise I know when the washing machine has finished to put out the washing (you can't hear the buzzer because I work upstairs in the 'office' and the washing machine is in the cellar).
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>I've got a smart type meter to monitor power use

I've one too, chucked it outside in the meter box when the gilt wore orf. I wouldn't want or have a proper smart meter installed here.
 Smart Meters - Manatee
I like to know what I'm racking up, not minute by minute but certainly month by month. My monthly readings are adequate and the app I record them with tells me my weekly electricity and gas costs (about £10 for electricity at the moment, and less than £5 for gas as the heating is off).

We used to use more electricity, by quite a margin. Careless use of electric heating; the boss would leave electric heaters on in the unoccupied conservatory for example. One of those monitors helped to catch that, and it will be in use again in the winter.

Fleeces will be issued at the end of September:)
 Smart Meters - The Melting Snowman
>> I've one too, chucked it outside in the meter box when the gilt wore orf.
>> I wouldn't want or have a proper smart meter installed here.

Me neither. I couldn't give a toss what our energy consumption is, as long as it's not a significant increase on the same period the previous year.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61
SQ 4 LB
>> If one were really watching the pennies I guess it lets you have the option
>> of being cold and dark, but knowing you've saved a couple of quid, or being
>> warm and civilised but stressing out in infinite detail about the price.
>>
There's a recent study on the interwebs somewhere which shows this is pretty much 100% typical; folks soon realise that they can save maybe a few % off their bill, but that's about it. It ain't gonna solve the looming 'energy gap'
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Aug 15 at 22:58
 Smart Meters - Zero

>> There's a recent study on the interwebs somewhere which shows this is pretty much 100%
>> typical; folks soon realise that they can save maybe a few % off their bill,
>> but that's about it. It ain't gonna solve the looming 'energy gap'

The consistent fall in consumption of the last 10 years would suggest otherwise.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61
>>
>> The consistent fall in consumption of the last 10 years would suggest otherwise.
>>

Not much of a fall, if any, depending on what degree of statistical manipulation you're happy with:-

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/449134/ECUK_Chapter_3_-_Domestic_factsheet.pdf

Chart 3

 Smart Meters - Zero
>> >>
>> >> The consistent fall in consumption of the last 10 years would suggest otherwise.
>> >>
>>
>> Not much of a fall, if any, depending on what degree of statistical manipulation you're
>> happy with:-

No idea where the "if any" comes from, there IS a fall, despite the fact the population is increasing and the amount of appliances is going up.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61

>> The consistent fall in consumption of the last 10 years would suggest otherwise.
>>

Thinking about it a bit more whilst my soldering iron heats up, the general uptake of more energy efficient bulbs/domestic appliances would presumably put a degree of downwards trend on electricity consumption - unless we're buying more appliances.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Aug 15 at 22:59
 Smart Meters - Alastairw
But people are buying more appliances. When they buy the shiny energy efficient side by side fridge for their refitted kitchen, they keep the old one in the garage for beer. I approve of this idea, but it isn't going to reduce leccy consumption.
 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope
And, I read somewhere, fridges are getting bigger. With the trend to healthier eating and reduced sugar content, more things have to be kept refrigerated to preserve them.
 Smart Meters - Rudedog
So will they be mandatory? if the gas or electricity company come knocking on my door can I say go away?

Also as far as I know my gas meter is only mechanical, I don't 'think' it has a power supply in the box outside and is no where near one, will they be able to hook it up to my internal power? and if so who will pay to run it?

Plus I live in a very iffy spot for mobile signals so that won't be very reliable.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> So will they be mandatory? if the gas or electricity company come knocking on my
>> door can I say go away?

no. The meter does not belong to you, and the gas company can get a court order for right of entry.

>> Also as far as I know my gas meter is only mechanical, I don't 'think'
>> it has a power supply in the box outside and is no where near one,
>> will they be able to hook it up to my internal power? and if so
>> who will pay to run it?
Interesting point. No idea what powers smart gas meters.

 Smart Meters - Kevin
>So will they be mandatory? if the gas or electricity company come knocking on my door can I say go away?

As far as I know they are not mandatory but I suspect that the gas or leccy company have the right to replace your existing meter whenever they want for accuracy/maintenance reasons. The govt. also want everyone on smart meters by 2020 so I think you'd be P'ing against the wind by telling them to go away.

>Also as far as I know my gas meter is only mechanical, I don't 'think' it has a power supply in the box outside and
>is no where near one, will they be able to hook it up to my internal power? and if so who will pay to run it?

The meters have an internal battery with a minimum guaranteed lifespan and you are already paying to run the system. The installation and running costs of the whole system are spread across everyone's utility bills irrespective of whether you have smart meters or not.

>Plus I live in a very iffy spot for mobile signals so that won't be very reliable.

Smart meters don't need a mobile signal.

At the local level they use a mesh network where any device that can communicate upstream will advertise itself to other nearby devices as a route back to DCC where the data is collected. So, your smart meter may pass it's data onto a neighbours meter, which passes the data onto another meter and so on until it reaches a meter that can communicate directly with DCC.

Basically, you are stuffed. You'll have them whether you want them or not.

Just hope that your neighbours kids don't think it might be funny to switch off your power when the first security breaches occur.
 Smart Meters - Roger.
>>The govt. also want everyone on smart meters by 2020 >>

Tin foil hat time, anyone?
 Smart Meters - sooty123
I don't know, what's ukips line on smart meters?
 Smart Meters - Roger.
>> I don't know, what's ukips line on smart meters?
>>

Not quantified, AFAIK.
 Smart Meters - Manatee
>> >>The govt. also want everyone on smart meters by 2020 >>
>>
>> Tin foil hat time, anyone?

Perhaps if you were to encase your smart meter in said tinfoil it might prevent it phoning home. Mass protest! £12bn down the drain!
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Perhaps if you were to encase your smart meter in said tinfoil it might prevent it phoning home

I shall remember that for if and when I have to have one.
 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope
>> >. So, your smart meter may pass it's data onto a neighbours
>> meter, which passes the data onto another meter and so on until it reaches a
>> meter that can communicate directly with DCC.
>>


Chinese whispers?
 Smart Meters - Dog
Howls about:

emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meters/smart-meter-fires-and-explosions/
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> Howls about:
>>
>> emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meters/smart-meter-fires-and-explosions/

Being a complete crank, I am surprised you haven't brought up all the EMF and waves from them that will be frying your brain argument that some have used against smart meters.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>I am surprised you haven't brought up all the EMF and waves from them that will be frying your brain argument that some have used against smart meters.

That's precisely the ammo I shall use if the LEB demand that I have a smarty meter. I do have Wi-Fi here,
but they don't know that.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> >>I am surprised you haven't brought up all the EMF and waves from them that
>> will be frying your brain argument that some have used against smart meters.
>>
>> That's precisely the ammo I shall use if the LEB demand that I have a
>> smarty meter. I do have Wi-Fi here,
>> but they don't know that.

Apart from your credit record saying its installed you mean?
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Apart from your credit record saying its installed you mean?

PC is wired. The ole woman uses Wi-Fi for her Laptop and the that blessed Kindle which is permanently glued to her boat but, how would the energy Co's know that?

Um, while I've 'got the floor, are there any routers available where I can switch the death rays off when she's not using her Laptop - which amounts to 22 hours per day.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> >>Apart from your credit record saying its installed you mean?
>>
>> PC is wired. The ole woman uses Wi-Fi for her Laptop and the that blessed
>> Kindle which is permanently glued to her boat but, how would the energy Co's know
>> that?

Your credit record says you have internet, its a 99% certainty you have a wifi router.

>> Um, while I've 'got the floor, are there any routers available where I can switch
>> the death rays off when she's not using her Laptop - which amounts to 22
>> hours per day.

Yes all of them. you just need to go to the settings page.

Death rays?

you need one of these

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Lear-Official-ATS-Tin-Foil-Hat-Not-Signed-Original-/111727732363?hash=item1a037de68b
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 16:59
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>you need one of these

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/John-Lear-Official-ATS-Tin-Foil-Hat-Not-Signed-Original-/111727732363?hash=item1a037de68b

The missus thinks I look cranky enough thanks!
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Yes all of them. you just need to go to the settings page.

What I'd really like is a router where I can switch the Wi-Fi orf when she's not using her Laptop, which is like most of the time.
 Smart Meters - Manatee
What router have you? Very unlikely you can't turn it off.

Mine (Huwaei HG533) has a button labelled WLAN which turns wifi on or off.

The same can be achieved with a check box in the admin screen.

If yours hasn't a button, put a short cut on your PC ("url" is probably 192.168.1.1) so you can change it easily, assuming your machine is always on. Otherwise pull the plug out!
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> >>Yes all of them. you just need to go to the settings page.
>>
>> What I'd really like is a router where I can switch the Wi-Fi orf when
>> she's not using her Laptop, which is like most of the time.

As i said, you have one. Its in the settings.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>If yours hasn't a button, put a short cut on your PC ("url" is probably 192.168.1.1) so you can change it easily, assuming your machine is always on. Otherwise pull the plug out!

>>As i said, you have one. Its in the settings.

Router is a cheapo TP-Link 300M wireless N ADSL2+ modem router model No. TD-W8960N

Yep - I've disabled the critter via the settings and saved the log in url, just waiting now for er indoors to squawk when she tries to log on.

:o}

Last edited by: Dog on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 19:18
 Smart Meters - Zero

>> Yep - I've disabled the critter via the settings and saved the log in url,
>> just waiting now for er indoors to squawk when she tries to log on.

so whats worse, real earache and genuine aggravation or physico hypochondria?
 Smart Meters - Manatee
>>Yep - I've disabled the critter via the settings and saved the log in url, just waiting now for er indoors to squawk when she tries to log on.

I'm just wondering whether your privileges will be at greater or lower risk if you delegate the turning on and off to her, rather than requiring her to apply to you whenever she wants to go online.

I think you're on a loser either way:)

If you have any neighbours, you might want to have a look at what other wifi you are bathing in using inSSIDer.

Download here: www.techspot.com/downloads/5936-inssider.html
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>I think you're on a loser either way:)

Cody still loves me when I stroke his belly, he's quite cuddly too.

>>Download here: www.techspot.com/downloads/5936-inssider.html

It says "no Wi-Fi devices connected" I'm still waiting for the SQUARK! so I'll enable it then, although the nearest neighb with Wi-Fi is approx. 22m away from here.

 Smart Meters - No FM2R
Did I miss the bit where you explained why on earth you want to keep turning your WiFi on and off?
 Smart Meters - sooty123
>> Did I miss the bit where you explained why on earth you want to keep
>> turning your WiFi on and off?
>>

Aren't the new modems going to do that, turn themselves off when no device is using it?
 Smart Meters - Dog
Because Wi-Fi is only required for 1-2 hours per day and I'd rather not have any of this carp www.safespaceprotection.com/electrostress-from-wireless-routers.aspx whizzing around my home all day.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
>> Because Wi-Fi is only required for 1-2 hours per day and I'd rather not have
>> any of this carp www.safespaceprotection.com/electrostress-from-wireless-routers.aspx whizzing around my home all day.
>>

Sounds sound science, I take it you've got some of their products?
 Smart Meters - Dog
I know they are trying to flog something sooty, but I just don't want Wi-Fi 'radiating' around my home all day, especially as I only use a PC which is connected by an Ethernet cable.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_electronic_devices_and_health

 Smart Meters - sooty123
How about some of those pendants they are flogging, that could block out all that radiation soup whilst looking smart. Win win.
 Smart Meters - Dog
Costs zilch to disable the Wi-Fi on my router and, I've noticed the reception of my DAB radio, which sits on the desk 8" from my router, is better now.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> Costs zilch to disable the Wi-Fi on my router and, I've noticed the reception of
>> my DAB radio, which sits on the desk 8" from my router, is better now.

Damn - all those Dab signals invading your house from outside - got no control over them.
 Smart Meters - Dog
DAB reception is carp where I am, gets better or worse according to what the weather is like. BBC reception is awful at times, whereas LBC is always fine. I should really rig up the FM aerial I bought years ago, but never got a roun tuit.

Orf to bed now & up at 5am to let 'him' out.
 Smart Meters - Duncan
One of these should do the trick.

Why not?

www.safespaceprotection.com/products/emf-protection-personal-vitaplex.aspx
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> Because Wi-Fi is only required for 1-2 hours per day and I'd rather not have
>> any of this carp www.safespaceprotection.com/electrostress-from-wireless-routers.aspx whizzing around my home all day.


you are receiving massive EMF exposure, and living or working in a dangerous soup of radiation.




You don't half swallow some old pony. You are completely off your trolley.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>You are completely off your trolley.

You're not the first one to state that you know, and no doubt you wont be the last ... YEEHAW!
 Smart Meters - sherlock47
If you think that he is off his trolley - read some of the testimonials!

www.safespaceprotection.com/testimonials.aspx
 Smart Meters - Dog
I slept better last night in my Wi-Fi free house, than I have for a long time. Coincidence?

Even my five month old cherry hog didn't wake me up at 4.45am like he usually does.
 Smart Meters - smokie
I'm surprised you didn't tune in to Radio 4 instead, or any of the other millions of waves floating around which we have no control over.

Maybe you slept better because you were fretting less about the WiFi frying your brain.

And maybe the dawg senses you are not asleep deeply (or hears you being restless) and assumes you are ready to play?

Still - as long as it works for you.... :-)

 Smart Meters - Dog
>>I'm surprised you didn't tune in to Radio 4 instead, or any of the other millions of waves floating around which we have no control over.

It's the Wi-Fi that I don't want radiating throughout my entire house, I'm not bothered about FM, AM or DAB.

>>Maybe you slept better because you were fretting less about the WiFi frying your brain.

I don't fret about it, no more than I fret about avoiding hydrogenated fats in my diet.

>>And maybe the dawg senses you are not asleep deeply (or hears you being restless) and assumes you are ready to play?

I've never been a deep sleeper tbh, whereas the ole woman would sleep through an earthquake I reckon.

>>Still - as long as it works for you.... :-)

Watch this space ;-)



 Smart Meters - sooty123
, I'm not bothered
>> about FM, AM or DAB.

Ahh you see that's what they want you to think. I'd bin the radio just to be safe.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Ahh you see that's what they want you to think. I'd bin the radio just to be safe.

I've got more radios than any man who ever lived = 6 x DAB. I'll tell you what though sooty old son, I've haven't had any of those subliminal massages from the TV for the last 3 months, b'cos I haven't watched the thing for that long [strange but true]
 Smart Meters - sooty123

>> I've got more radios than any man who ever lived = 6 x DAB. I'll
>> tell you what though sooty old son, I've haven't had any of those subliminal massages


They're very subtle though via radio.
 Smart Meters - VxFan
>> It's the Wi-Fi that I don't want radiating throughout my entire house

However do you manage when when there are countless public places providing WIFI these days? Libraries, shopping centres, cafes, to name but a few. I can pretty much wander around any of the local towns and my phone is 99.9% attached to a free WIFI signal.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
> However do you manage when when there are countless public places providing WIFI these days?
>> Libraries, shopping centres, cafes, to name but a few. I can pretty much wander around any of the local towns and my phone is 99.9% attached to a free WIFI signal.
>>

Depends where you live, very few round here. But it is the back of . beyond.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Depends where you live, very few round here. But it is the back of . beyond.

This is what 'real' life is all about, built with my own hands [from a kit :)] filled with Ash logs ready for the winter.

Bring it on!

www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/20345368138/in/dateposted-public/
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>However do you manage when when there are countless public places providing WIFI these days? Libraries, shopping centres, cafes, to name but a few. I can pretty much wander around any of the local towns and my phone is 99.9% attached to a free WIFI signal.

Y'all gonna be turned into zombies [as if you're not already] I'm staying up here on the moors of the SW (baaa)
 Smart Meters - Duncan
>> It's the Wi-Fi that I don't want radiating throughout my entire house

I think The Dog is on a lovely big wind-up.
 Smart Meters - VxFan
>> It's the Wi-Fi that I don't want radiating throughout my entire house, I'm not bothered
>> about FM, AM or DAB.

What about electromagnetic fields - do they give you the heebie jeebies too?

Best stay off the roads in that case.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33886180

 Smart Meters - Dog
>>What about electromagnetic fields - do they give you the heebie jeebies too?

Got enough fields where I live thank you very much.

>>Best stay off the roads in that case.

How about narrow country lanes with high hedges?

>>www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33886180

"however, the vehicles have to stop for several minutes at a time to receive the power boost".

"The cost of buying and installing the charging equipment may ultimately scupper the scheme"

^_^
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
.**********

You need to get over it and move on;

you walk along the road breathing carcinogenic fumes from cars, breathing in recycled air with goodness knows what bacteria, you use public toilets and "washed" plates, glasses and cutlery in various establishments.

We spent millions and millions trying to prove that a threat from cellular masts existed or that it did not. I have worked for groups whose very welfare and existence depending on proving that there was no risk and it couldn't be done. Equally I have worked for groups desperate to prove that it was harmful, and they could not.

Who knows? May be it does, may be it doesn't. But its so tiny or so long term that we couldn't find it.

Wireless communication and electro-magnetic radiations are so far down the list of things that are likely to harm you it isn't even worth measuring. Or possible to measure.

You're more likely to die from the stress of worrying about it.

You know what I'd worry about if I was you? If you really want to be worried about technology - what are we doing with the waste? Both manufacturing and end of life disposal.
 Smart Meters - Alanovich
The other day you were telling us you only had a few years left anyway, so understanding why you think benign wifi signals are death rays is a bit tricky.

:-)
 Smart Meters - Duncan
>> So will they be mandatory? if the gas or electricity company come knocking on my
>> door can I say go away?

Why? What for? What's the problem?

 Smart Meters - No FM2R
There's no disadvantage to the consumer from a smart meter. The advantages might not be quite as sold, but nothing negative will happen.

And since your taxes have paid for a large part of it, and the rest will eb paid for by the cost of supply, you may as well join in.

As for mandatory, they don't have to be. Its nothing to do with you. The meter is not owned by you, you have no control over it, no say in it. It is not yours to be involved in.

They will politely ask for access to it if they need to, but they can do it whether or not you say yes. That's just them being polite.

Their meter, their right to access that meter.

But why you should care one way or the other I don't know.
 Smart Meters - sooty123

>> But why you should care one way or the other I don't know.
>>

I'd be a bit wary, I'm still after months of changing suppliers I'm still trying to sort out the meter reading. Not smart meter issue per se i know, but I'd not been too keen on anyone fiddling about with the meter. God knows what could happen with figures at change over.
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
Yes
If you don't want a smart meter you don't have to jave one
So no need to fret.
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
>If you don't want a smart meter you don't have to have one

You will have one, but you can delay it I guess. But you're a long way down the schedule.
 Smart Meters - Crankcase
Very negative piece here from a year ago. But the source looks as if the next article will be about killer bees from Mars stealing your washing, so it may not be that unbiased. Interesting though:

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2681954/Unveiled-New-200-smart-meters-household-pay-not-work.html
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 15:31
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Energy companies will begin the mass installation of smart meters next year

Um, that'll be this year then. Oh well, perhaps next year, or the year after etc. etc.

>>The £11 billion project, introduced to meet EU green targets

Now there's a surprise, not.

>>the meters do not work in a third of British homes, including high-rise flats, basements and those in rural areas

YIPPIE!







 Smart Meters - No FM2R
What is it about smart meters that worries you so much?
 Smart Meters - Dog
I'd rather not say but, it's got nothing to do with wi-fried brain cells [as if I had any!]
 Smart Meters - sooty123
Oh gone tell us you know you want to.
 Smart Meters - Dog
David Icke advised me not to have one installed, for the sake of my elf.
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
Many years ago I worked for a Borough Council refurbishing council homes for long term residents.

I once met a man who, when I knocked on the door, answered it with a foil hat. Even the windows covered in newspaper and foil didn't worry me, nor the cycle clips (which he never did explain).

To be frank you meet a fair amount of weirdos in that line, so he didn't particularly standout in my week.

Until the subject got around to his television; I went to move it as part of clearing the room to wallpaper and I damn near threw the thing over my shoulder since it didn't weigh anything; it was in fact just a wooden box with a glass front.

He explained to me that "they" transmitted subliminal messages to people through the television set so he had taken the insides out of his own to stop that and then wore the foil hat to stop signals leaking in from the houses either side.

The best bit though was when he explained to me that he still paid for his TV Licence every year so that "they" wouldn't guess he didn't have a working TV and thus wasn't being brainwashed.

Bless, like his brain would have taken more than a quick rinse.

Funnily, and rather coincidentally, enough that was in a house in either Waylen Street or Zinzan Street, where psycho cyclists with cameras were mentioned earlier in another thread.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 17:22
 Smart Meters - Dog
There's nowt as queer as folk; and, It take all sorts to make the world. My ole mum used to say "There's more out than in" .. Yoos only got to watch something like Obsessive Compulsive Hoarder on the idiots lantern to realise that.

Sad though IMO.
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
Best tow wear a brain coat I alwasy think. You can't be too careful.

www.lessemf.com/personal.html
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
Although the full upper body shield might be better.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
don't forget the light duty faraday canopy, one over chair as well as the bed. Can't be too careful.
 Smart Meters - Dog
I hope to be selected for the Mars One mission pretty soon, so I wont be requiring all that carp.
 Smart Meters - Zero
>> I hope to be selected for the Mars One mission pretty soon, so I wont
>> be requiring all that carp.

And be bombarded by all that gamma radiation from deep space?
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>And be bombarded by all that gamma radiation from deep space?

Don't be silly, I'll be taking me tin hat.

:o}
 Smart Meters - Kevin
>And be bombarded by all that gamma radiation from deep space?

Eh? I thought the Mars One mission was intended to map Slough industrial estates.
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
There is no legal obligation to accept a smart meter. Can't think of any good reason why you would refuse but you can be a refusenik if you wish.

www.gov.uk/smart-meters-how-they-work
 Smart Meters - smokie
I'll have to look carefully at the spec as for generators like me (solar panels) some of the meters do not properly record the "direction" of the electrical flow, thus would charge for stuff they should be paying me for.

The original meter I had when the panels were installed went backwards when I was net generating. That's not particularly uncommon. I reported it to my provider who changed the meter, but some who didn't are now being asked to pay notional amounts for the considerable underpayments.
 Smart Meters - Roger.
I have smart meters installed by Eon when I was with them. They came with a widget to measure power use, which I discarded after a week as I could not be assed to look at it.
My current supplier (Extra Energy) does not support them, so they are not being used as intended.
Waste of space currently! (pun alert).

 Smart Meters - Dog
>>My current supplier (Extra Energy) does not support them


"We understand that monitoring how much energy you use is important. To keep offering low price tariffs, we provide six monthly statements and currently don't offer Smart Meters"

www.extraenergy.com/home/faq/becoming-a-customer
 Smart Meters - Duncan
Dog, this is what you need - radiation proof pants:-

tinyurl.com/pyj584j
 Smart Meters - smokie
Looks to me like he's also got a tin helmet inside 'em :-)
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Dog, this is what you need - radiation proof pants:-

tinyurl.com/pyj584j

I've got them on order from Amazon, Duncan. I've also ordered a short length of hosepipe ;-)
 Smart Meters - Slidingpillar
At the end of the day, a 'smart meter' isn't. I mean, can it play chess? Would you invite one to tea? Thought not.

The much vaunted, 'you'll get cheaper bills now you can see what is using the power' is disingenuous at best and at worst, a downright lie. Fact remains, stuff plugged in and switched on uses power, turn it it off, it doesn't.

If I ever converse with a fitter of smart meters, I shall refer to it as a 'thick meter'.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Wed 12 Aug 15 at 18:53
 Smart Meters - The Melting Snowman
About ten years ago my missus bought this plug-in device that works out the consumption of any item you plug into it. It was a bit of fun for a while but was soon displaced to the garage where it hasn't left in all these years. The biggest saving people can make in their energy bills is to switch supplier.
 Smart Meters - smokie
You are all clever enough to know how electricity works, and/or rich enough not have to care about the cost. I used to not care about leaving stuff on too, filling kettles to the brim for just one cup, installing halogen spots all over the place etc.

When I was researching the solar panels I got interested in costs/usage and in saving a bit where I could, and in the first year I saved over 30% usage, and this is improving each year. None of it has caused any hardship either. Admittedly some of the costs to achieve savings were quite high (e.g. replacement of halogens with LED) so these will take years to pay back.

Also I am on one of the better FIT rates so my electric bills are dramatically lower than they were...
 Smart Meters - Crankcase
smokie, I seem to recall some years ago,you put in the solar panels, and you thought it would have a payback of about seven or eight years. Everyone else here (or maybe it was on HJ) gave you a hard time and offered estimates of twenty five years to never.

Or wasn't that you?

In any event, how is it actually honestly shaping up in reality? Good decision?

 Smart Meters - Rudedog
I can't put a finger on exactly what doesn't feel quite right about them.. is there going to be a guarantee that my usage pattern won't be passed/sold on to a third party who then bombards me with unwanted adverts according to what they 'think' I'm using my electricity for?
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
Information cannot be passed on to third parties without yr permission.

www.energy-uk.org.uk/files/docs/Policies/Smart%20Meter%20policies%20%20consultation%20responses/2013/smart_meter_data_guide_version_1-june-13.pdf
 Smart Meters - smokie
Yeah I think it was good. They cost me £10500 which I paid from savings, not a loan. They were installed in Nov 2011 and so far I've received payments totalling £4929, so I think still on target to get my money back in around 7-8 years. They've so far cost me nothing to run and while I can't determine how much, have saved me a modest amount off my electricity bills. The payments are guaranteed for 25 years from install date, and rise annually with inflation. There is a good chance that the inverter will need replacing during that period which I reckon to be about £1k - other than that not much maintenance is expected.

So I'm sure some could do better with their investment but for me it works. I will get a modest but guaranteed annual tax free income well into my retirement to add to to my pensions :-)
 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope
>> They cost me £10500 which I paid from savings,
>> not a loan. They were installed in Nov 2011 and so far I've received payments
>> totalling £4929, so I think still on target to get my money back in around
>> 7-8 years.

Getting your money back and at least matching the interest/growth that your investment would otherwise have been making?
 Smart Meters - smokie
Just done a really quick Excel using the following parameters

Annual 5% (yeah right!!) return on my £10500 (compounded)
Annual FIT payments of £1300 (not inflated, for "worst case" - past 12 months was £1350)
No allowance made for maintenance
No allowance made for savings on electricity bills

My £10500 would have been worth £17385 after 25 years, an increase of £6855.

The guaranteed 25 years of FIT payments comes to £32500

In year 10, with 15 years of FIT income still to come, the 5% investment would be worth £12917 and FIT income would be £13000 - so I suppose that's the year in which I truly break even.

Undoubtedly there's flawed logic somewhere but solar appears to be a better investment when taken on a longer term view.

Also money isn't the only thing - I have some green credentials now :-)
 Smart Meters - sooty123
Sounds pretty good smokie, you can do better than 5% but like you say the fit payments are guaranteed. Some obvious downsides, it would be no good for me. but looks pretty good if it suits your circumstances.
 Smart Meters - rtj70
>> My £10500 would have been worth £17385 after 25 years, an increase of £6855.

Is that calculation working out what it's worth in today's money? Over 25 years and even 3% interest I calculate the £10500 would be worth over £21k (ignoring tax).

What am I missing from your comparison? Using 5% compound interest for 25 years gives over £35k.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 13 Aug 15 at 09:36
 Smart Meters - smokie
Hmm so it does. Spreadsheet error, I said it was a quickie!! So a recount...

My £10500 would have been worth £35556 after 25 years assuming 5% pa compound.

The guaranteed 25 years of FIT payments still comes to £32500 (still not inflated)

So it seems I backed something of a loser - but

1) no account of tax (FIT payments are tax free)

2) no account of inflation (which is applied to FIT payments)

3) no allowance for leccy savings.

So maybe it's a break even or thereabouts after all. I'm stuck with it now, like it or not!! :-)

Lastly - where can I get a steady guaranteed and safe 5% (serious question as I have other funds to invest)


 Smart Meters - rtj70
4) You're not going to get 5% guaranteed for 25 years tax free.

... If anyone knows where to get good guaranteed returns that's anywhere above 3% I'd like to know too.
 Smart Meters - Dog
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter
 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope
A really smart meter would be like a smart computer or a smart car that detected your energy requirements and switched automatically to the most economical power source.

It would detect that there were lights left on in a room that had had no movement say for 5 minutes, and would begin to dim them.
If you turned on a heavy energy user at peak time it would pop up a confirmation message suggesting that it re-times the operation.
Perhaps it would be smart enough to switch to a more appropriate supplier, like a radio tuning in to a station giving better reception.
Perhaps you could phone home or go online and tell it to put the kettle on or start the washing machine.

There are lots of smart things a meter might do, but simply telling its user and minder how much it has spent isn't really one of them.
 Smart Meters - Crankcase
Those kind of things are beginning to hit the market now, but of course it will be up to you to do the sums and work out if it's economical/useful to purchase the products.

Examples:

www.pcadvisor.co.uk/test-centre/digital-home/best-smart-thermostats-2014-hive-vs-nest-vs-tado-vs-heat-genius-3583499/

 Smart Meters - The Melting Snowman
>> Perhaps you could phone home or go online and tell it to put the kettle on or start the washing machine.

Nah, I just phone the missus... :-0
 Smart Meters - Clk Sec
As it's a year since the last post on this thread, I thought I'd ask for an update re the pros and cons of having a smart meter installed, as I've recently had an invitation from my energy supplier.

Looking at the FAQs, the only potential problem I can see is the possibility of some minor faff when changing suppliers.

Thanks.
 Smart Meters - Clk Sec
>> As it's a year since the last post on this thread,

I think I'll assume that no news is good news and book ourselves in for a new meter.

 Smart Meters - Cliff Pope

>>
>> I think I'll assume that no news is good news and book ourselves in for
>> a new meter.
>>


I think I'll assume that no news is no news, and not bother.
 Smart Meters - Rudedog
I'm afraid I'm a bit suspect about the suppliers 'giving' you something for apparently nothing.

There's been some recent Radio 4 Money Programmes asking some very probing questions to the energy companies which they didn't like.

As far as I know there are still questions over the suppliers selling-on your usage data to third parties (some countries ?Denmark or the Netherlands have banned this), plus they need some kind of reliable data connection to send back your info so some rural/built-up areas might not work.

The whole 'free weekend electricity' which was used as an incentive to install free meters has been roundly rubbished by money experts.
 Smart Meters - maltrap
The thing that would concern me about smart meters is, do all suppliers on all tariffs accept smart meter readings ?
 Smart Meters - Falkirk Bairn
>>The thing that would concern me about smart meters is, do all suppliers on all tariffs accept >>smart meter readings ?

Apparently not. Some meters are not supported by some suppliers - rumour has it some meters installed not so long ago do not meet today's requirements.
 Smart Meters - Dog
>> they need some kind of reliable data connection to send back your info so some rural/built-up areas might not work.

Good, that counts me out then. I still turn the Wi-Fi orf on my router 'til the memsahib wants it for her laptop.

A Wi-Fi free zone ya see.

(*_*)
 Smart Meters - BrianByPass
>> I'm afraid I'm a bit suspect about the suppliers 'giving' you something for apparently nothing.
>>


Not free. Cost per home estimated at £200 plus. Costs already being recovered through a levy on your bills. Credit claimed by Ed Miliband and/or by the EU to save the world from climate change. If it is an EU requirement, maybe it can be ditched after Brexit assuming that the uncivil servants in the now defunct Department of Energy and Climate Change have better things to do.
 Smart Meters - Roger.
Does it also not give energy companies the ability to "traffic shape", or otherwise control, one's usage remotely and with no input from the consumer?
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
No and they're not compulsory either so no need to worry.
 Smart Meters - BrianByPass
>> No and they're not compulsory either so no need to worry.
>>

First the Government says

The government is requiring energy companies to install smart meters for their customers, and has set out rules to ensure that they do this in a way that is in the interests of consumers, including rules around:
data access and privacy
security
technical standards for the smart metering equipment
meeting the needs of vulnerable consumers
Smart meters will be rolled out as standard across the country by the end of 2020. But there is no legal obligation on individuals to have one.


Then the Government says

Do consumers have to have a Smart Meter?
Smart meters will be rolled out as standard across the
country by 2020, but there will not be a legal obligation on
individuals to have one.
Energy companies will be required to install smart meters
and take all reasonable steps to reach everyone. However,
we do not expect energy companies to take legal action to
fit a smart meter if they cannot get the householder’s
co-operation.


Note the civil service speak "take all reasonable steps" and "we do not expect" - don't you just love their turn of phrase? So they just don't "expect" legal action, but they don't definitely rule it out.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
Note the civil service speak "take all reasonable steps" and "we do not expect" -
>> don't you just love their turn of phrase? So they just don't "expect" legal action,
>> but they don't definitely rule it out.
>>


Seems reasonable to me, not sure how else they could have worded it.
 Smart Meters - BrianByPass

>> Seems reasonable to me, not sure how else they could have worded it.
>>

What does stipulating "take all reasonable steps" achieve where something is not required to be done by law?

If it is not a legal requirement, why not just state that no legal action will be possible rather that "we do not expect"?

I do not expect you to fail take all reasonable steps to understand my meaning.
 Smart Meters - No FM2R
>>What does stipulating "take all reasonable steps" achieve where something is not required to be done by law?

In a regulated industry where it is the regulator doing the stipulating, it means a great deal.
 Smart Meters - sooty123
What does stipulating "take all reasonable steps" achieve where something is not required to be
>> done by law?

I would imagine it's difficult to specify every circumstances that would be possible to get a smart meter into everyone's house would be impossible. Much easy to just write a phrase to cover everyone.

Like I said what do you think they should have written?

>> If it is not a legal requirement, why not just state that no legal action
>> will be possible rather that "we do not expect"?

I'm not a legal expert but that says to me there is some very remote chance of legal action under a narrow set of circumstances, however it's very unlikely.


>> I do not expect you to fail take all reasonable steps to understand my meaning.
>>

Why thank you.
 Smart Meters - BrianByPass
>> Like I said what do you think they should have written?
>>

Simply this:

The Government thinks smart meters are a wonderful invention and are really really good for cutting down greenhouse gases and will save the world from the catastrophe of climate change. It would be awfully nice if everyone would fit these nice lovely looking gadgets in their homes. But we are not forcing you to have them, and there is no law that says you must have them. So we are asking the energy companies to fit them free at "no extra cost" and for the privilege you must to listen to the expert from the company who will explain to you how you can cut down on your usage. But really, truly, it is not compulsory and you can refuse to have a smart meter if you are not so smart to have them. There is no way anyone can force you to have one fitted and we have told the energy companies to be extra nice to you to try to convince you. They will make you an offer you can't refuse but can't take you to court if you do refuse. It is not compulsory, honest. But it will be very good for the planet. Go on, you know it is good for you, get it fitted NOW. OR ELSE you will get Brexit.

"no extra cost" - www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2015/2/Smart-Metering-Communications-Body-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_284299.aspx
 Smart Meters - sooty123
Yes I'm sure that was an earlier draft version. Probably.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61
>> Does it also not give energy companies the ability to "traffic shape", or otherwise control,
>> one's usage remotely and with no input from the consumer?
>>

Yes there's the potentially useful (to the supplier) feature to disconnect the supply remotely built into all (I think) smart meters.
 Smart Meters - rtj70
The smart meter infrastructure that connects the meters to the energy suppliers still hasn't been finished. It is now officially delayed until autumn. At the moment, a smart meter is not smart - it can't even send meter readings.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 29 Aug 16 at 17:20
 Smart Meters - madf
>> The smart meter infrastructure that connects the meters to the energy suppliers still hasn't been
>> finished. It is now officially delayed until autumn. At the moment, a smart meter is
>> not smart - it can't even send meter readings.
>>

Err our electric smart meter has been installed for 4 months and has been sending readings since installation.

Just saying :-)
 Smart Meters - rtj70
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37102725

utilityweek.co.uk/news/government-expects-a-4-month-delay-to-dccs-smart-meter-plans/1157092#.V8SElFfs7QI

An important part of the smart meter infrastructure is still missing. Just saying :-)

And I think some earlier smart meters will need to be replaced.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 29 Aug 16 at 19:55
 Smart Meters - sooty123
It doesn't say what the problem is?
 Smart Meters - sherlock47
>> It doesn't say what the problem is?
>>

Nobody learns from history!

A government IT project, let on a lowest tender basis with an inadequate specification?

 Smart Meters - Pat
If you have an outside gas meter like me, you can't have one yet until it has been moved inside.....according to Eon last week!

Pat
 Smart Meters - sooty123
That's interesting if true, many people must have them outside. Ours are both outside. It'll be a lot of money to move everyone inside. We are still on the waiting list to get one, i thought it would be fairly quick but looking at the news it'll no doubt be years, we'll have no doubt moved again then.
 Smart Meters - madf
>> That's interesting if true, many people must have them outside. Ours are both outside. It'll
>> be a lot of money to move everyone inside. We are still on the waiting
>> list to get one, i thought it would be fairly quick but looking at the
>> news it'll no doubt be years, we'll have no doubt moved again then.
>>

Ours is in a stone built little shed of its own attached to the house. The existing pipe to the house runs under the hall floor - which is tiled. So a new pipe will have to be laid. The house walls at that point are stone (millstone grit) and about 1 meter wide.

It will cost £1000s.

No date given for installation - I expect it when I am dead.
 Smart Meters - mikeyb
>> If you have an outside gas meter like me, you can't have one yet until
>> it has been moved inside.....according to Eon last week!
>>
>> Pat
>>

Mines outside and British Gas changed mine to a smart meter about 6 months ago
 Smart Meters - Pat
I did wonder if that is just Eon's policy Mikey.

They are apparently starting to fit Smart meters now for people who had registered an interest in having them but there was a questionnaire to fill in.

Mine came back that the meter had to be moved inside before it could be done so I wouldn't be included in the first wave of customers to have them fitted.

Pat
 Smart Meters - Bromptonaut
Pat,

When you say the meter is outside do you mean it is in an outhouse or under a lean too?

Ours is set into an outside wall behind a door operated with a universal key. Standard developer fit for last quarter century at least. Surely that set up is not excluded.

 Smart Meters - sooty123
Ours is set into an outside wall behind a door operated with a universal key.
>> Standard developer fit for last quarter century at least. Surely that set up is not
>> excluded.


Ours is the same, like you say to exclude them would leave a lot of homes left out.
 Smart Meters - Pat
Ours is set down about 18'' into the flower bed in the front garden, directly behind where the boiler is situated the other side of the wall of the house.

The meter reader hates me as I plant Hebe's to try and hide the wooden lid it has on it and the cavity is full of soils and spiders!

Pat
 Smart Meters - Kevin
>The meter reader hates me as I plant Hebe's..

Hebe are bee magnets so I suspect the bees aren't too pleased with the meter reader either.

 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
"Ours is set down about 18'' into the flower bed"

And that is the reason they are unable to install a smart meter, not simply because it is outside the house

From the FAQ section of the EON website:

"By telling us where your meters are located, this'll help us understand if we're able to fit a smart meter for you at the moment, as we're currently unable to install meters in certain places, such as a communal cupboard in a shared building, or an outside gas meter box if it's in the ground.
This information will also help our technician prepare for the installation on the day of your appointment."
 Smart Meters - sooty123
That's quite an unusual set up. Don't think I've seen one like that.

Is it like this ?

www.meterboxes.co.uk/products/domestic-meter-boxes/gas/semi-buried/mitras-mitras-semi-buried-gas-meter-box.html
 Smart Meters - Slidingpillar
Question. How does a 'smart meter' actually communicate? Does it transmit, does it use your phone line or for the electric meter at least, talk back along the wires?
 Smart Meters - tyrednemotional
Answer:
www.smartdcc.co.uk/media/341298/15595_dcc_fact_sheet-coverage_v7.pdf
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich
Stand by for a "smart meter radiation risk to health" scare from the Daily Mail
 Smart Meters - sherlock47
Dog will start making tin foil helmets and selling them to the emmets.

Although perhaps protection from radon should be higher on his worry list :)
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich

Some "facts".

emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meters/smart-meter-health-complaints/
 Smart Meters - Slidingpillar
Some "facts

Oh dear. Best live at least 20 miles from a TV or radio transmitter, and wear a tin-foil hat...
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>Best live at least 20 miles from a TV or radio transmitter, and wear a tin-foil hat...

You can't be too careful IMO:

lh4.googleusercontent.com/-z0GmCgM9-gg/TX_JJ6BxXRI/AAAAAAAABvs/AkySA5hi_1s/tin+foil+hat.jpg
 Smart Meters - CGNorwich

>>
>> Oh dear. Best live at least 20 miles from a TV or radio transmitter, and
>> wear a tin-foil hat...
>>

No, there might be no need to move. There is hope with smart meter shielding technology

www.electricsense.com/2431/smart-meter-shielding-tips/

Might be a good little earner. I will install the necessary kit for a grand. 10% off if you can persuade the whole street.
 Smart Meters - spamcan61
SQ4 LB

>> Might be a good little earner. I will install the necessary kit for a grand.
>> 10% off if you can persuade the whole street.
>>

I can't find the link now, but in the recent past I've seen some 'radiation overs' for WiFi routers so you can pay yer money and stop the nasty radiation getting out.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 4 Sep 16 at 19:16
 Smart Meters - Dog
>>I can't find the link now, but in the recent past I've seen some 'radiation overs' for WiFi routers so you can pay yer money and stop the nasty radiation getting out.

www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wifi+shield&view=detail&mid=D2C174CB802B1F33570CD2C174CB802B1F33570C&FORM=VIRE
 Smart Meters - sooty123
>> Stand by for a "smart meter radiation risk to health" scare from the Daily Mail
>>

Only a matter of time I'm sure.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI
 Smart Meters - Pat
More or less like that sooty but mine has a nice home made wooden lid on it which I try and cover with plants.

Pat
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