Seems to be a developing story atm.
So is Scotland better off in the Union or out and also should they be given the choice ( and also what choice )?
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We are all better off sticking together...however, if the sweaties want autonomy, up to them, hope it works out.
Same with the taffs and the Cornish.......although where do you draw the line? The Principality of Birmingham?
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Most Scots throughout history have emigrated, so unless they start off by clarifying what constitutes Scottish nationality they will be disenfranchising most of their potential population.
Under present voting rules emigre Scots would be denied a vote in a referendum, but English incomers would be entitled to vote.
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How about the English having a vote on whether we want to carry on being lumbered with the Scots for any longer.
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>> How about the English having a vote on whether we want to carry on being
>> lumbered with the Scots for any longer.
+1
>>
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>> >> lumbered with the Scots for any longer.
+2....and the EU.
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>> >> >> lumbered with the Scots for any longer.
>>
>> +2....and the EU.
>>
+3
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I am an exiled Scot. I would only return to live there if paid a lot - frequently.
It's like going back to the 1970s.. (or if a Rangers/Celtic match is on - to the 19th century)..
Bunch of barbarians.. Hadrian had a lot to answer for: he should have made a better wall.:-)
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If they want out, that's fine. It has to be completely out tho, They pay for and control everything out of their own sources of income, NONE from south of the border. Its a separate country, they have to stand on their own two feet They should also have to negotiate their own re-entry (if wanted) back into the EU.
The sums don't add up of course, the sources of income are too low, and the infrastructure and social costs are disproportionally high. The SNP will want the rest of the country and the EU to pay for them.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 11:06
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Zero
They would also have to take over their share of National Debt..About £80 billion and rising by my crude calculations,,,And pay the interest on it.
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>> Zero
>>
>> They would also have to take over their share of National Debt..About £80 billion and
>> rising by my crude calculations,,,And pay the interest on it.
No let them off that, without having to fund scotland we could soon knock that down.
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Doesn't Scotland have oil?
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>> Doesn't Scotland have oil?
No - its all gone
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>> Doesn't Scotland have oil?
>>
Only cooking oil - for their deep fried Mars Bars!
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>>The SNP will want the rest of the country and the EU to pay for them<<
Perhaps that is their plan - ditch the £ for the € then get the begging bowl out like the PIGS, for which the English will have to cough up for (AGAIN!)
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There's zip chance of an independent Scotland. However, we(*) should have a vote ASAP so that we can put Salmond in his place, and wipe the smug grin off his face. Of course, once that has been taken away from the one trick pony SNP, they will be all at sea, so that's why he's putting it off as long as possible.
* I'm English exiled north of border, by choice. Maybe I won't get a vote either then?
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I don't know enough about whether independence would be good or bad.
However as a Scot, living in Scotland, my concern is whether due to apathy or not, the SNP won with a complete landslide at the last election. This has given them free reign to do as they please.
We have just had a bill passed in our Parliament which relates to Sectarian crime - all the political parties opposed it, many of the legal folks opposed it, the football clubs opposed it but due to SNP having a majority they were able to pass it. It is a very scary bit of legislation.
I could honestly see if this went to the vote, that it could be passed. Obviously depending on the timing. Scotland is still pretty much anti Tory, by collusion that has a negative impact on the Lib Dems which only leaves Labour.
After our last election, the Labour, LibDem, and Tory leader all resigned as they were absolutely trounced. That does not fill me with any confidence that any of them would be able to put up a battle against an indie vote.
You just need to look at the Edinbugh tram project to see what happens when a bunch of politicians are left to make decisions that should really be taken out their hands.
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Ah yes, Currency - they will need their own. Not legal tender south of the border of course.
And a head of state, they will want to knock queenie (probably King Charlie by then) on the head.
President Alex the First sounds ok you think?
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He'll probably suffer a myocardial infarction by then, so it'll be President Nicola, possibly.
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>> Ah yes, Currency - they will need their own. Not legal tender south of the
>> border of course.
They'll have fun with RBS of course. The Scottish taxpayer will have to fund that.. As it's asset base is at leat 1000 times the size of the Scottish economy, it does not take much mental arithmetic to see one bad decision at RBS will bankrupt the Scots..
(Reminds me of ... what was it called.. The Darien scheme - which bankrupted most of Scotland and lead to the Act of Union.. and the bailing out of the Scots.. That's fine we'll have that back as well with compound interest. That will be £5,000 billion please)
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Good point on RBS - they would have to take that on surely.
I can see the rest of the UK being better off if Scotland did go it alone. I don't know what tax income comes into the Treasury from the Scottish people and businesses but I'd hazard a guess that more goes into Scotland. Same for Wales.
I cannot see them being able to afford to do it and if the information is presented, surely the Scots won't vote for it.... but you never know.
I can see some businesses headquartered in Scotland deciding to move - or maybe they will try to become of 'tax haven' like Switzerland and attract company HQs?
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>> If they want out, that's fine. It has to be completely out tho, They pay
>> for and control everything out of their own sources of income, NONE from south of
>> the border. Its a separate country, they have to stand on their own two feet
>> They should also have to negotiate their own re-entry (if wanted) back into the EU.
>>
>>
>>
>> The sums don't add up of course, the sources of income are too low, and
>> the infrastructure and social costs are disproportionally high. The SNP will want the rest of
>> the country and the EU to pay for them.
The trouble is in defining what goes with Scotland and what stays with UK. No share of UK oil revenues is included in estimates of Scottish inflows, and while you could argue as to what proportion should go with an independent state, geographically at least it is almost in or north of Scottish latitudes.
As far as the Scots Nats calculations go, they will keep the oil revenues, and lose the defence costs by choosing not to have an army,navy or airforce presumably. North Sea oil revenues to UK are still on a scale of £10bn a year, a useful sum for a population of c. 5m.
I don't have the numbers, but making those assumptions could change the picture quite a lot.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 21:31
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Taking a minute or two to look at the Scotland .gov site for revenues/expenditure for 2009-2010 for example:
Income (excluding oil): £42b
Income from oil: £6.5bn
So a total of £48.5bn. And expenditure was £59bn. So basically a deficit of £10bn for that financial year.
I would imagine if they really wanted independence they would not want our military there (and ship building might go too... well the UK should build the ships in the UK)... so a lot of job losses directly and indirectly from losing the military presence.
I still think the SNP want a middle ground option, not full independence just total financial autonomy of sorts. So best for them and worst for the rest of us.
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I think to be fair there is so much speculation - do all Royal Navy ships currently get built in the UK? Thought there was uproar recently when one went abroad due to EU tendering regulations?
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>> Taking a minute or two to look at the Scotland .gov site for revenues/expenditure for
>> 2009-2010 for example:
>>
>> Income (excluding oil): £42b
>> Income from oil: £6.5bn
>>
>> So a total of £48.5bn. And expenditure was £59bn. So basically a deficit of £10bn
>> for that financial year.
But how much of that £42bn income is just transferred from the UK I wonder ;-)
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>> But how much of that £42bn income is just transferred from the UK I wonder ;-)
There was a breakdown of figures but I'm sort of with you on that. The figures I've seen for stamp duty were interesting too.
Even if there isn't any transfer from the UK for that figure, there's still a £10bn hole. And oil and gas reserves will run out eventually. And as I said many thousands working in Scotland in military roles will leave and airbases, ship and submarine bases etc would be shut. So what happens to income tax and more importantly what happens to the communities that has lost a lot of residents.
But then what of the families of servicemen that would be moved. House prices could plummet.
Would any companies based in Scotland (e.g. RBS) want to transfer elsewhere.
I doubt it will happen - I don't think the SNP want full independence anyway.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 21:46
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The numbers for oil are 11.1 billion for 2011 falling to 7.2 billion in 2015 as reserves of oil fall and extraction becomes difficult.
To counter this Salmond had plans for financial services to become a key source of revenue, and to this end he cajoled Sir Fred Goodwin of RBS to expand, buying ABN Amro, overpaying to stop an English bank, Barclays, from completing the deal.
This deal brought RBS to its knees, and it is now 83% owned by the State, so will never be the cash cow that Salmond was counting on. BOS is a dead cow as well. Both heavily retreating from global banking.,
Scotland has little agricultural land so all food needs to be imported, its manufacturing base has been severely eroded, IT support industry has been offshored to India, the fishing fleet is decimated, but i think it may be self sufficient in electricity.
In short all it has is declining north sea oil, and would need a lot of investment it hasnt got to diversify.
I certainly would not buy shares in Scotland PLC.
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>> Scotland has little agricultural land so all food needs to be imported,
Eh?
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>> >> Scotland has little agricultural land so all food needs to be imported,
>>
>> Eh?
As a percentage how much of scottish land is productive arable? compared to the UK? look it up.
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>> As a percentage how much of scottish land is productive arable? compared to the UK?
>> look it up.
What's the deifinition of 'productive arable'? How do hill farms with sheep, Heilan Coos etc fit in?
And in terms of productive acres per head of population?
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I would think Scotland could easily (and does) farm animals like sheep and cattle... crops will be difficult to grow. Which is what Zero will be referring to. I think arable is a hint.... growing crops sort of 'arable'
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Ok well I will tell you that Lincolshire alone produces more arable food than the whole of Scotland. Wales produces more lamb than Scotland. 5 million people cant live on what is produced in Scotland.,
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Zero, they do eat fried Mars bars too... oh hang on they would import those from Slough I guess :-)
I think Bromptonaut's problem is knowing the definition of arable full stop. Apologies if he does. But he does talk sheep and cattle....
Note: I have no idea where Mars Bars in the UK are made now if it's not still Slough.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 22:25
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Again if the Scottish are foolish to vote yes then I say let them go it alone. It will save the rest of us UK tax payers a bit I guess. With the end of the cold war, having bases for planes and subs in Scotland is not such an issue anymore.
I hope the country sees sense. But Salmond no doubt wants the best of all worlds in his mind.
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>> Note: I have no idea where Mars Bars in the UK are made now if
>> it's not still Slough.
Still slough
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>> I think Bromptonaut's problem is knowing the definition of arable full stop. Apologies if he
>> does. But he does talk sheep and cattle....
I had to think for a minute but the O level geog came back. Z's playing fast & loose with definitions - Scots farms tend to be mixed rather strictly arable.
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If you're right about RBS and Salmond... and I'm not doubting you... Salmond should be paying a price for this, e.g. resign.
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>> If you're right about RBS and Salmond... and I'm not doubting you... Salmond should be
>> paying a price for this, e.g. resign.
Check out the Freedom of information act requests that Salmond tried to block.
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My God Zero, I am packing up immediately and heading over the border before we in Scotland collapse overnight!
So we need to import all our food? Really? Nae coos or sheep? Nae tatties? Nae lettuce? Nae Strawberries? Nae Milk?
This thread is starting to run away with itself, I could see the point if were being compared to a wonderful debt free, full employment England but somehow it doesn't look that way from here.
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check where your tatties and lettuce come from my jock friend. And most of the sheep!
Not saying that England is a panacea, it isnt by any means, but alas, you need us far more than we need you.
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Sorry Zero, but that's wrong.
Scotland's TIFF (total icome from farming) 2009 was £600m (£120 per person) vs. the UK as a whole £4.4bn (~£65 per person).
Although half of Scotland is a rocky wasteland it is still 60% of the size of England has and less than 10% of it's population.
With respect to food "self-sufficiency" I think you'll find England some distance behind.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 22:33
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Zero must think Scotland stops at Edinburgh, there is almost another 300 miles until you fall off the top.
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Limiting the vote to Scotland residents only creates a problem.
The electoral roll is based on your residence, and so it would be possible for "interlopers" to move to Scotland temporarily and register there in order to influence the vote.
As the question of divorce affects everyone in the Union, voters in all parts of the Union should be asked to decide.
A possible fair solution could be a multiple question referendum:
1. Do you want (list four countries alphabetically E N S W) to be independent? Yes/No
2. Do you want your country of residence to remain in union with:
(list E N S W again - and see if some duffers say no to remaining within their own country of residence). Yes/No
After independence, SNP will then opt for Scotland in to join the Euro and then regret giving away fiscal power to Brussels, and beg to go back to control from London.
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I don't know enough about the politics, but I can't help thinking that for a tiny island, we should look to sticking together and continue the union. All this business of devolution and self governence for the UK as a whole which is smaller than some American states just seems stupid. I'm all for retaining one's national identity but surely that can still be done as one nation, Great Britain. Perhaps we need a Great British football team - then some Scots would at least have a chance of playing in the World Cup!
Makes you wonder if there was a split whether we''d all end up with new passports and border controls from England to Scotland/Wales/Isle of Wight etc. Where would it end?
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Aye, you've got that right. We all need to be in the one tent peeing out at the moment. Not standing outside each other's peeing in. Anyone who can't see that needs their bumps felt.
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Not into the wind either please.
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>> Makes you wonder if there was a split whether we''d all end up with new passports and border controls from England to Scotland/Wales/Isle of Wight etc. Where would it end?
>>
Who cares. Let it all take it's course. Passport? I ain't got the time to go away. Happy here with green fields, dogs, relative peace etc etc etc. From a purely amateur point of view let the Scot's have their independence. They'll never make it pay/work without of course £££££ additional input. 'tain't Rocket science.
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>> and see if some duffers say no to
>> remaining within their own country of residence).
>>
You don't have to actual live in a country to be officially domiciled there for tax purposes.
There should just be virtual regions/countries and anyone could register online to be E,S,W,NI,C etc. Whichever you opted for would determine your tax rate, etc. If you live in Norfolk and want to be Scottish, just tick the box.
Like swapping to a new energy provider.
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"If you live in Norfolk and want to be Scottish, just tick the box. "
Will I have to eat porridge made with water?
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Good warriors the Scots the SAS troops from Scotland where classed the best.
Porridge made with milk add honey excellent.>:)
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>>Porridge made with milk add honey excellent.>:)<<
-1
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-1 Come on Dog good for the bowels .;)
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Should be made with wasser Dutchie, + a little sea salt :)
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You maybe right I stick to milk,don't eat it often toast in the morning and a cup of Ringtons Tea proper Yorkshire brew.
What's the weather like near your castle Dog?Here fine at the moment looking forward to spring .
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>>What's the weather like near your castle Dog?<<
Cloudy and overcast, like it is every blimmin day Dutchie, mild though = 10.7c
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Want to be careful on those winter tyres then Fido !
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Plenty of time yet mister gentlemans undercarriage ;)
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Did you get winter tyres Dog? You must have money to burn..;)
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Careful Dutchie, he's rattled, I know he is...
:-)
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We take him on together he has no cat in hell change..:)
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Don't know about having money to burn, but I've still got 55 bags of blimmin Taybrite left!
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>>Did you get winter tyres Dog?<<
Me? no, I bought all-weather-any-season tyres Dutchie
www.nokiantires.com/tyre?id=11899&group=1.01&name=Nokian+WRG2
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They look decent tyres Dog money well spend.I would by all season tyres all weather tyres makes sense.I might go the Vredestein route small company. We might get away with it this year regarding the weather one never knows.
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>>I might go the Vredestein route small company<<
Good choice!
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Cameron is desperate for this to happen before the next election. Getting rid of Scotland will get rid of 44 Labour seats in Westminster.
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>> Cameron is desperate for this to happen before the next election. Getting rid of Scotland
>> will get rid of 44 Labour seats in Westminster.
>>
The SNP will get rid of a few and the Boundary Commission a few more...
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>> >>Porridge made with milk add honey excellent.>:)<<
>>
>> -1
>>
+1
Especially home grown honey..
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>> add honey excellent.>:)
Or a tablespoon of golden syrup. Yum, yum!
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Funny how everyone strives to give porridge some flavour. Why not eat something flavourful in the first place?
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>>Especially home grown honey..<<
Well, blow me down with a bumblebee, last time I had raw honey was in Tenerife at £5 a jar!
Last edited by: Dog on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 16:21
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>>Why not eat something flavourful in the first place?
No mint sauce or horseradish relish for you, then...
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lamb or roast beef already has flavour.
Bacon sarnies have flavour even without catchup
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 16:28
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>>Especially home grown honey..<<
>>
>> Well, blow me down with a bumblebee, last time I had raw honey was in
>> Tenerife at £5 a jar!
>>
Raw honey - or rather the pollen in it - helps you combat hay fever , piles, cramps, dysentery, madness, ailments of politics - it got rid of Gordon Brown - and flatulence. It also makes you healthy, wealthy and wise...
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If we put it on Ed's balls praps he'd go away as well.
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Best send it back for a refund then, it didn't work on Dog.
Pat
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Was it not Scotlands Idea to form the UK in the 1st place back in 1707?
I'm sure I read/heard that from a History teacher somewhere but I can't remember ATM
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The Scots always seem to want independence when the going is good, but as soon as it gets tough they want the protection of the rest of the Great Britain around them.
Pat
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It's then about time Mr Salmon (or whatever he is called) Brush up on his history, wipe that smug grin of his face and stop blethering on about "independant Scotland" and put some input into making the nation that the Scots wanted "great" again. If he still wants to be independant then bye bye and don't come running when its all gone tits up because you can't support a economy of your own.
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Thankfully, here in Wales there isn't much stomach for this independence nonsense. I don't understand why the Scots seem to want it, economically the country has nothing going for it.
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Considering the UK needs to borrow over £150bn this year to stand still I don't think it's fair to suggest Scotland alone has nothing going for it ;-)
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Careful Lygonos, you're in severe danger of letting the truth get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned anti-scottish bigotry. Let them have their moment. No one with a brain will take them all that seriously.
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Let them have their moment. No one with a brain will take them all that seriously.
>>
Is that a bit like most of the scouser celebs who once they have two h'apennys to scratch their wotsits with are out of the place like a shot, then forever droning on about ...Liverpool...its grate.
Can't move down here for Jocks forever going on about wonderful Jockland.
:-)
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I'd go back in a heartbeat. Unfortunately for me my ( English ) wife disagrees.
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>> I'd go back in a heartbeat. Unfortunately for me my ( English ) wife disagrees.
>>
Well assert yourself my dear chap and tell 'er!
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I wonder how much the NHS alone in Scotland costs to run. And where that money would come from after the split? Maybe GPs and consultants all need to take pay cuts?
My mother in law is having eye injections for macular degeneration. Still ongoing in one eye. About 35 injections in total so far... at about £1000 per injection. Luckily paid for by the NHS (but done in a private hospital).
If I lived in Scotland I'd be concerned they might go ahead with enough agreeing to vote yes. Maybe the English, Welsh, Irish, Poles, Latvians, Czechs etc will all vote no.
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Costs about the same pro rata as it does in the rest of the UK.
Interestingly (or not) GPs in Scotland get a bit less than those in England as we have smaller list sizes (income is directly related to the size of your patient list).
In Scotland 1500-2000 patients per GP is typical, in England 2000-2500.
Hence the GP service in England is worse than it is in Scotland - for the same cost.
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>> Considering the UK needs to borrow over £150bn this year
That's just to complete the Edinburgh tram.
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They lost me when they leased those stupid looking Pandas, all because of a fish(y)deal with China. What a complete bunch of out of touch idiots.
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>> That's just to complete the Edinburgh tram
Unfortunately from the Unionist position the SNP was against the Trams from the start and remain so.
The other massive balls-up (Scottish Parliament) was also a Labour chosen scheme (Donald Dewar + friends) and can't be used as a stick to bash the Nats.
Personally I don't give a toot if Scotland is independent or in the UK - I guess if it went mammaries up I could move to England or the Isle of Man ;-)
p.s. I think a lot of English think the SNP are a Jock version of the BNP - they're more of a centre-left party in case anyone still thinks that...
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>> Personally I don't give a toot if Scotland is independent or in the UK -
>> I guess if it went mammaries up I could move to England or the Isle
>> of Man ;-)
Oh great, bleedin refugees
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I'm here already, and I've taken one of your women !
:-))
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>> I'm here already, and I've taken one of your women !
>>
>> :-))
YOU have taken HER? SHE tells YOU where YOU can live. (-0:0-)
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If Scotland went independent would we still have to change the damn clocks twice a year?
Probably.
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>>>> Considering the UK needs to borrow over £150bn this year
That's just to complete the Edinburgh tram.
Wrong again Zero, thats just the contribution for the security at the London Olympics.....
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The one the jock football team refuse to take part in?
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Thats the one !! Can't side with the enemy now can we????
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Know what? I reckon they'd figure something out if push came to shove...
:-)
www.magicdragon.com/Wallace/thingscot.html
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If
>> he still wants to be independant then bye bye and don't come running when its
>> all gone tits up because you can't support a economy of your own.
>>
And that's why Cameron's called his bluff. Salmond is a popular figure in Scotland but he's bought much of that popularity with Westminster money which won't be there after the door shuts.
For far too long he's been able to have his cake and eat it. My guess is that Salmond is only too aware of the fact that, as emperor, he won't have a suit to wear at his coronation, but his adoring fanbase doesn't. My guess is that he's crapping himself, and although the man's never done me any harm I have to confess that I'd enjoy his fall from grace. I detest smug people.
I expect a swift change of opinion on devolution if Ireland slips any further towards bankruptcy, as appears ever more likely.
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I too think it's calling his bluff. But there might be many in Scotland who really do believe in Salmond and vote for it!
Maybe it's 2014 because he hopes the other European economies will be sorted by then or on the way to being sorted.
If Scotland does take more money from the UK Treasury than it pays in... I'm happy for them to leave :-) Happy for them to stay as well but if you want to leave then that's fine by me.
There are some crazy things happening with some of the devolution. Why are prescriptions in Wales free for all? So if you earn £60k* you can't afford £7.40?
* If the £60k is from having 10 children and claiming all benefits and credits... I guess prescriptions are free in England too.
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It's 2014 because that is the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn. The hope is that a tidal wave of patriotic fervour will lead to a Yes vote. That is why Cameron would like it sooner. No opinion poll has ever produced more than around 30% in favour of full independence.
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Another example that will lead to some job losses. NS&I has their main office in Glasgow I think. If we split then that would close.
Now why would NS&I have a big office in Scotland instead of say (I don't know) Norwich? Employment in Scotland.
The more I think of it, Salmond should just shut up and disappear.
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So no "English" companies outsource work to "foreign" countries??
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But NS&I is a government agency. I don't think the government does outsourcing
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>> I don't think the government does outsourcing
All the time they do outsourcing. I can only comment on IT. But DVLA IT is run by IBM for example.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 22:42
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>> To foreign countries.
Depends what you mean by Government. The NHS shipped most of its data entry work out to India, but generally speaking most Companies who take on Government contracts have to obtain security clearance to offshore work, and its rarely forthcoming.
To overcome this restriction companies now use temporary onshoring. A strange hybrid whereby offshore workers are shipped in for 6 weeks to do work. They are paid offshore wages, pay no income tax or NI. Also who is to know if someone in India is logging onto the UK companies system to do the work at 3 quid an hour.
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I appreciate that but the general feeling here seems to be if this happens, every non Scottish company will leave the country and our economy will collapse immediately and we will all starve to death.
It may well be that this is what would happen but I don't think anyone can really comment on what would happen , what incentives may be given to companies, from what base would they be starting etc etc.
Its all very speculative at this stage but many seem to have already made their minds up.
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NS&I outsourced to Siemens Business Services with some in Glasgow.
But I don't see why the UK government would/should keep paying for employees in Scotland if they want independence.
Note I don't think Scotland should be independent. Or want it. But if you want independence then there will be problems financially if income is below expenditure.
I wonder who would be eligible to vote. I assume everyone living in Scotland and registered to vote. So BobbyG, Old Navy and Lygonos = yes. Humph = no. And all the Polish, Latvians, English, Welsh, Italian, Greek, Irish, etc = yes too.
What would our Scottish eligible voters go for?
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How is England's Income v Expenditure?
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>> How is England's Income v Expenditure?
>>
Well we owe money. But if we really did save £10bn per annum say from not propping up Scotland we're on to a winner reducing the deficit. Have you tried looking up the info - it's on the Internet :-)
My examples of companies pulling out were not all companies. If there was a split then all UK military would withdraw (or maybe not?). And something like the UK NS&I surely would shut the Glasgow office. How would you be selling UK government bonds from Scotland if we split.
I think Salmond is an idiot. But some Scots might be idiots and follow him. And that is their/your choice... happy with that. I don't think the sums add up and happy if I am wrong.
Now anyone have tips on moving to Greece?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 23:06
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NS&I is a way for the UK government to sell debt to it's own citizens - what benefit does this have for the economy other than stirring around the debt?
An independent Scotland would need to sell it's own bonds/have it's own National Savings so I don't think it's a good example.
Imagine if an independent Scotland set its corporation tax a couple of percent lower than the rest of the UK.
If Scotland's deficit just now is 10bn per annum this equates to £2000 per person.
The UK's deficit this year will be about 160bn: ~£2500 per person assuming population 62m.
See - we're cheaper to run than the rest of the country ;-)
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>> NS&I is a way for the UK government to sell debt to it's own citizens
Which is why I cannot see it being run out of another country if Scotland became devolved. Not a huge number of employees but there would be redundancies. And who would have to pay?
And yes Scotland could sell their debt as bonds like Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, etc. do.... and who would buy it.
In a time when Europe and the world is in turmoil... the next few years is not the time to do anything. And I sort of admire Cameron for calling the bluff. I'd not want to be living in Scotland in 2013 and find I am now a nation of 5 million that is independent. Longer term we all need closer ties in Europe. The Euro implementation has turned out to be a mistake.
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>Now anyone have tips on moving to Greece?
Yeah.
Forget it until prices return to pre-Euro levels. That means a drop of 50 to 70%.
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I agree Kevin.... Glad we hadn't done it yet. I kind of hope they get out of the Euro too.
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Rob, I dont need to search the net when you and Zero have all the answers!!!
Seriously though, on the face of it I dont think I would want independence, as previously.mentioned I dont trust any politicians no matter what party.
I think my dad has summed it up well, he has voted SNP for years just to make sure that all the big parties paid some notice to Scottish opinion. The traditional Labour voters didnt bother voting as they assumed Labour would win anyway. Then SNP got in and on Scottish matters, on the surface, they really havent done much too wrong. Meanwhile the other parties have had a monumental collapse in Scotland.
So Salmond suddenky found himself in a similar position to Cameron and Clegg, were happy in opposition as easier to shout about what is wrong with Labour and suddenly found themselves in power and having to make the big decisions.
Salmond has nowhere else to go now, if he wins a referendum then he is a hero in his eyes. If he loses, he walks away with a huge pension and lives happily ever after. As always, it is the punters like you and me that are left to pick up the pieces and face the consequences.
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I think that when it comes to a vote to leave the Union the Scots will not vote for full independence.
I don't think there is a strong economic case either way, and I don't think it's a decision to be made entirely on economic grounds - most Scots also see themselves as British.
Although 2 vanity schemes come to mind since devolution (Parliament at Holyrood, and Edinburgh Trams [technically Edinburgh City Council's great idea]) that are the source of much mockery and derision up here, their sub-billion pound costs still barely pass muster to the multi-billion pound "UK" projects such as various IT schemes, and MOD procurement that arise from Westminster.
The devolved parliament hasn't actually been that bad (shock horror) possibly because it is designed to force a degree of consensus politics, with minority government being possible without the joke that is the Con-Dem dan sarf - the SNP winning a landslide is probably anomalous and is similar in effect to the usual majority UK govt.
Regarding the Armed Forces, Scotland will still need these albeit likely at a reduced level as we have no plans to invade Iraqistan - we can still sell our excess of neds and nutters to the Marines, Paras (and SAS) as has been the case for over 50 years ;-)
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Well I will summarise my feelings and butt out.
Much as I joke and bitch about the cost of supporting Scotland and Wales, the simple truth is that in these world and economic times we need to stick together. I dont think the Scottish economy is sufficiently broad and robust to survive on its own (in truth I dont think Englands is without being part of Europe) and its collapse could cost all of us dearly.
I will say no more about it.
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>> Regarding the Armed Forces, Scotland will still need these albeit likely at a reduced level as
>> we have no plans to invade Iraqistan
But the cost to maintain vehicles, planes, helicopters etc. is cheaper when you have more of them. Economies of scale.
And the nerds and nutters of future won't be wanted by the rest of the UK army... they can work elsewhere I guess? Mercenaries spring to mind but they won't have been trained... where do most UK military staff get trained in terms of establishments?
This all makes little sense.... Salmond should be stopped and hence the bluff call.
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The end result could be a more federalised union - where UK takes care of Defence and Foreign Policy leaving the Scots to take care of domestic stuff at some cost to UK taxpayers. I don't know why people are so threatened by it - worked (after a fashion) in N Ireland for years :-)
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>> But the cost to maintain vehicles, planes, helicopters etc. is cheaper when you have more of them. Economies of scale.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
Mercy, stop it!
2 words:
MOD Procurement
well an acronym and a word ;-)
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>> MOD Procurement
>> well an acronym and a word ;-)
Not sure what you mean - Scotland would have their own MOD and own procurement processes.
Well they might not have much of a MOD to start with. But who'd invade?
Edit: Lygonos was joking? Independence is independence from the UK. So you'd be on your own. Right? Or am I missing what Scot's think they want?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 23:29
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The Norwegians are no 1 suspects after they were stabbed in the back by the Scottish Parliament recently - and who coul blame them.
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The more I think about it, if Scotland want independence then I am for it. Welsh too. And that as a Welshman. Both cost more than they produce in revenue. More fool them I guess.
Not a simple a transition and a lot of Scots out of work (but the UK doesn't get the income tax so who cares*).
* I do
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I'm sure a few less travelled members se Scotland as a nation of Rab C Nesbitt's, but to be fair there is no substantial economic argument that puts Scotland far behind England.
As 'regions' in the UK, Scotland is positioned 3rd behind London and SE England.
If you factor in a 'geographical share' of North Sea oil and gas it is 2nd behind London.
As nations, Scotland is right behind England (thanks to London!) - again add a geographical share of oil/gas and Scotland's GVA would be around 15% higher than England as a whole.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom#National_and_regional_variation
The true economies of scale are likely to be had within a larger, more cooperative world as Zero alludes to above.
The next couple of years are likely to show contracting economies, higher unemployment, lower house prices, lower confidence.
Some countries have debts that realistically will take 50+ years to control/pay off.
If we want to travel to the stars we need to all start getting along a whole lot better....
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 23:36
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Happy for you to leave - none of the Scots has said what they think. When there is no oil and has revenue? And if that revenue is important and declining, why does the SNP want a referendum in 2014?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 23:37
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Can't you read?
Or research economics?
I have no great desire to leave.
Equally if Scotland was independent I don't think it would turn into Zimbabwe because some quangos needed re-arranged.
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>> Can't you read? Or research economics?
My simple and quick search reveals a deficit of £10bn. So yes I can read etc. No idea if my simple and quick research is anywhere near accurate.
Your answer is appreciated... so far you're the only person in Scotland and a member here voicing an opinion.
In the near term I don't think (like you) that Scotland has a problem. Mid to long term Europe does. Biggest problem is the Euro and Germany.
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>>Your answer is appreciated... so far you're the only person in Scotland and a member here voicing an opinion.
em I have been voicing opinions but as said previously, this is all speculation until we actually find out the nuts and bolts of it all !So until then, can't really give an educated answer.
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>Equally if Scotland was independent I don't think it would turn into Zimbabwe because some
>quangos needed re-arranged.
If Scotland voted for independence what currency would they adopt?
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I am starting to hope they do vote for independence. With a date set. A lot will sell up and move back to England and house prices might recover a bit,
Salmond is all talk - he doesn't really want independence?
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Of course he wants independence. He's a politician - more fun being a big fish in a little pond, than a minnow in with the sharks.
One of the biggest reasons why the UK is on its knees is the fascination with rising house prices as if if they're good for the economy.
Rising house prices = INFLATION!
Everyone cries when cars/food/fuel prices rise year on year, but somehow unsustainable property price rises are seen as 'an investment'.
It's not good to have to spend huge chunks of the nation's income paying interest to the banks rather than spending it locally to maintain regional economies.
If the average house price in the UK was 100 grand I reckon we'd have had a much more prosperous past 25 years rather than basing it on a humungous mountain of debt.
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>>If Scotland voted for independence what currency would they adopt?
Not something that's been discussed yet as far as I'm aware - Scottish Pound?
The independent Irish had the Punt running seperately from the Pound before they joined the Eurodoom.
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The posts by the Jock GP tell me Scottish independence is a more realistic option than I thought it was.
Although the last poll I read suggested only about 30 per cent of the populace are in favour.
So if it comes down to a popular vote, the answer will almost certainly be 'no'.
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Cameron could try one big bluff-calling and present a bill in parliament to grant Scottish independence immediately.
Perhaps restrict voting to Scottish MPs only.
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>> >> Perhaps restrict voting to Scottish MPs only.
>>
That can't be done.
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>> >> >> Perhaps restrict voting to Scottish MPs only.
>> >>
>>
>> That can't be done.
>>
Anything can be done. Just pass a law saying it can be. :)
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>> Cameron could try one big bluff-calling and present a bill in parliament to grant Scottish
>> independence immediately.
Which, in a slightly more nuanced way, is what he's doing.
Salmond wants a consultative referendum held under SG auspices and with a wider franchise including 16/17 year olds. Options would include both full independence and greater devolution. The second has significant support, which could be increased if Nats control timing - anniversary of Bannockburn etc.
The result would inform negotiations with UK Gov to which constitutional matters are reserved. A further formal/binding referendum would be part of that process.
Cameron, while ostensibly offering the Nats what they want, is laying down conditions including a straight Yes/No and a vote sooner rather than later. Gamble is that result will be No so that, like electoral reform, the issue is off the agenda for a generation.
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I can't see the Scots voting for independence, and if they think that Europe will bail them out if they run into trouble I can't see this happening.
But why are the Scots so anti westminster is it because they get a raw deal from the UK government?
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I don't think most of them are Dutchie. As has been said only 30% indicate they would vote for independence in opinion polls.
England, to many Scots is, a convenient scapegoat for any ill that befalls them as a nation, much like the EU is to a lot of people in England . Most analysis of the economic situation reveals that the Scots get a good economic deal from the Union and deep down most Scots know this
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We could sort this out fairly once and for all by having a battle like in the olde days,
our 51,000,000 against their 5,000,000.
And stage the battle in somewhere, like - Bannockburn.
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Or Salmon and Cameron slug it out in the arena.Clegg as standby Spartacus relived..:)
This was a serious conversation Dog we be talking about women next.
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>>This was a serious conversation Dog we be talking about women next<<
I thought we were Dutchie (Cameron & Salmond)
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Salmond you are right Dog.
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>>Although the last poll I read suggested only about 30 per cent of the populace are in favour.
Iffy, the problem though is not what people feel about it, but which ones actually turn up on the day to cast their vote. As mentioned previously, I believe that is why SNP have progressed so well - Scotland was always Labour so Labour voters didn't see the point in voting as they believed they would get in anyway.
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In Scotland - well parts of it - life expectancy has fallen so much that "natural" Labour voters are dying off. The Labour political machine was so complacent, there was little canvassing prior to an election in some seats.
The SNP caught Labour with their breeks down..
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>> The SNP caught Labour with their breeks down..
>>
Thats true, Labour didn't realise that my area has gone from being a coal mining area to a suburb of Edinburgh over the last few decades. The Vote labour regardless folk are a dieing breed, in this area anyway.
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I can't get my head round it Scotland being a seperate country.It isn't is it?
A region or province of the United Kingdom.The Scots have a different accent so are large areas of Germany or France.So is Wales a province . I can't understand the Wales people do.>:)
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Scotland is a kingdom, as is England.
Wales is a principality.
Northern Ireland is a province.
Scotland and England had seperate monarchies until James VI of Scotland was installed on both thrones (James the first and sixth)
Scots are at least as monarchist as the English I would have thought.
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>Scotland is a kingdom
Are you sure? There were two kingdoms and now we have a single united kingdom with two legal systems.
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Well Alex Salmond and David Cameron between then have achieved something that might have been thought impossible
Conservative Lord Michael Forsyth and Labour's George Fowkes interviewed on R5L at 08:15.
From positions on this you couldn't tell them apart!!!
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Anyone who I've ever met from Scotland tells me what wonderful place it is.
If it's that wonderful, why is it they're not still there?
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>> Anyone who I've ever met from Scotland tells me what wonderful place it is.
>>
>> If it's that wonderful, why is it they're not still there?
>>
It's the Scots who are the problem.. (seriously)
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>> >Scotland is a kingdom
>>
>> Are you sure? There were two kingdoms and now we have a single united kingdom
>> with two legal systems.
>>
The Queen's title is Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The "united" bit refers to Ireland, not Scotland. Scotland isn't in the Union as a separate nation, but as part of Great Britain. The United Kingdom dates I think from 1801, with the union of the British and Irish parliaments.
I'm not sure when the union of England and Scotland forming Great Britain occurred - 1707, from memory?
The act of union of England and Wales was much earlier - 15 something?
So there are actually 3 unions, in layers like an onion :)
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If the "United" refers to the union with Ireland should it not have been removed when Ireland became independent which necessitated the inclusion of Northern Ireland in the title?
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I don't know. Presumably they just substituted NI but otherwise left the words the same, as "Ireland" so far as GB was concerned just got a bit smaller.
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>> If the "United" refers to the union with Ireland should it not have been removed
>> when Ireland became independent which necessitated the inclusion of Northern Ireland in the title?
It might except that one bit of the Irish territory remains with us.
But surely its a United Kingdom of four territories of which three are conveniently wrapped up in the geographical unit that is Great Britain?
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We must live in the most confusingly named country in the world. NO wonder foreigners are mystified
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The Welsh Government is consulting on the merits of a seperate Welsh Jurisdiction.
tinyurl.com/7kotswo (pdf on Welsh Gov Site)
Quite an interesting read just for the history.
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>> The Welsh Government is consulting on the merits of a seperate Welsh Jurisdiction.
>>
>> tinyurl.com/7kotswo (pdf on Welsh Gov Site)
If that doesn't illustrate that politicians and quangos are just flattering their egos and making work for themselves, nothing does.
If the law of England and Wales isn't fit for purpose, it should be adapted so it works for both, not reinvented separately for Wales with all the attendant cost and distraction. Exceptions (like the language requirements) can be and are easily catered for without a separate system of law.
The mind boggles. As if there wasn't enough proper stuff to do.
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The proper stuff is boring for the politicians Manatee.,these chaps are already thinking about the next career move.Not many conviction politicians if that is the right word these days or was there ever.
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I was going to keep my nose out but aals I cant as Alex is acting exactly as I thought he would
1/ Whipping up anti Westminster feeling from the off
quote:
"wonders why "the PM would want to trample over Scotland in size 10 boots"
He accused Mr Cameron of "wanting to set the ground rules for our referendum despite the fact it has got no mandate whatsoever for doing so".
2/ Demanding that those who have no voting rights be given them by including 16-17 year olds, this is no more than electoral fraud. And he wonders why Westminster want some input into the process!
3/ Muddying the waters. Wants to include multiple options in the referendum, some of which fall short of independence. This could backfire producing no mandate to do anything, or at the least confusion. Say there was 30% for independence, 30% for super devolved powers, and 30% to remain in the union. Whats the answer? I know he would try and lump the two 30%'s together to get more power.
4/ One wonders why 2014 is chosen - one knows of course.
I guess he is between a rock and hard place. The founding principals of the SNP is independence, therefore he has to appear to shoot for it. By going for the third choice as well I guess he thinks that is more achievable and desirable. As i said he could really shoot himself in both feet by offering up a multiple choice paper.
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Nice country for motoring as very few people live in rural areas. I recently drove from Moffat to Peebles and only encountered five cars (all near Peebles) and one cyclist. I think the Scots should get their independence but give up the subsidy. Last time I checked, Scotland contained 9% of the population but took 12% of the exchequer.
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After London, and the SE of England, Scotland is the most productive area in the UK.
(Add in geographical oil share and it is just behind London).
Considering how unproductive the UK is as a whole, with its £160bn deficit this year it's not much of a boast I know....
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Agree with you on those points Zero.
As I have mentioned at various points in this thread, Salmond has actually got a big following in Scotland. Or to put it another way, out of all the parties, SNP has the most active following. The others are in disarray.
I have watched and listened to various TV / Radio reports and even the commentators seem to be suggesting that Salmond is being very clever about the whole thing. Call it spin, manipulation, brainwashing or whatever but you can't fault the job he is doing (from his perspective).
We all know there is an anti English feeling in Scotland, I would guess this is more done in a joking manner ie the Auld Enemy as opposed to any serious hatred. But if Salmond starts to trip out propoganda of how this, that or the next thing will be better under an Indie Scotland, there will need to be good propoganda from the other side. And of course, very few people in Scotland will believe anything the Tory party comes out with so the other parties really will need to unite and sing off the one hymn sheet.
Except, at the recent Scottish party leadership campaigns, I think every party said that they needed to stand alone and be seen as Scottish and not just a wing of the British party as that had cost them votes in the Scottish Parliament.
As have mentioned, I would need to see all the facts before I could make a judgement but I can see that Salmond is being very clever about the whole thing.
The whole thing is going to get very messy indeed and if the vote does happen, I think the result will depend not on how many vote Yes for it, but how many people who don't want it who turn up to register that vote.
Scary.com
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In the grand scheme of things, an independent Scotland will have little impact on the rest of the UK.
Equally I doubt the Scots will see much of a difference either - trading ties will by necessity remain close between both sides - whether a "Scottish Chancellor" with significant savvy could use Scotland's independence to give it an edge over RUK is highly debatable.
At this time the "No" vote will win the referendum by a significant margin.
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>> In the grand scheme of things, an independent Scotland will have little impact on the
>> rest of the UK.
>>
>> Equally I doubt the Scots will see much of a difference either
Just jobs for the boys then!
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One interesting consequence would be without Scottish MPs the Conservatives would have an overwhelming majority in Westminster for the foreseeable future
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Some might say it is one of the main reasons.
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>Equally I doubt the Scots will see much of a difference either - trading ties will by necessity remain close..
A legal pundit on the radio last night said that an independent Scotland would no longer be a part of the EU and would have to apply to join (assuming they wanted to). That process could take three to four years and one of the conditions is that new members must commit to the Euro.
So, it looks like a Yes vote would mean a quick currency change to a Scottish "Poond" followed a few years later by switching to the Euro, or an immediate switch to the Euro.
And while waiting for EU membership, trade and immigration status would be the same as any other non-EU country and there would be no EU aid (sic).
Technically, I guess that would make one or two folks here (Hi Humph) illegal immigrants if they didn't move back over the border ;-)
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The legality of EU status is up for grabs.
The UK is in the EU.
If the UK splits do both parts remain in, or does one automatically leave.
Not having to pay a huge sum into Europe, just to have it returned as "aid" (minus the mahoosive chunk wasted via the European machine) is a plus or a minus?
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>The legality of EU status is up for grabs.
Not according to the bod on the radio.
>The UK is in the EU.
>If the UK splits do both parts remain in, or does one automatically leave.
Nothing changes for the UK, Scotland would be leaving to become independent.
>Not having to pay a huge sum into Europe, just to have it returned as "aid"..is a plus or a minus?
I've no idea. Is Scotland a net contributor or receiver?
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Thought you made yours out of bits of wood ?
:-)
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Yeah, so they can float when the dykes break.
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The more anyone thinks of what impact this has on Scotland the more you think it won't happen. A country leaving the Euro (which also means leaving the EU at the moment) would be complex enough but this would be even more complex. And it seems they wouldn't be in the EU at the end of it.
I think the term neverendum is apt.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 22:05
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I would bet a simultaneous joining into the EU would be arranged - there's no precedent obviously so they (the UK, Scotland, and Europe) could make it up as they go along.
As they usually do when it coms to constitutional matters.
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I'm starting to think Dave might not be very bright, at least in terms of judgement. Salmond doesn't look at all rattled, and seems to be enjoying the attention.
That's the trouble with Eton and Oxford types. You never quite know whether they owe their positions to talent or privilege, and one thing a £30,000 a year education confers on those of even average intelligence is the ability to sound authoritative and knowledgeable. And I'm only being slightly satirical, if at all.
Sometimes of course it has the opposite effect, as with the Berserker, who manages to sound like a clot much of the time despite, reputedly, being one of the brainier alumni of the Bullingdon club.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 23:05
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I'm not sure what the best option for Dave'n'Ed can be:-
if they're seen to get too involved in the mechanics it is likely to be detrimental to their respective parties in Scotland in their ability to be seen as 'Scottish' rather than simply tails being wagged from England.
Similarly, if they sit back and let the SNP take the lead, it makes Salmond look as if he's in charge (which in reality he probably is, having a majority government in Scotland).
I predict the referendum will be in 2014, it will not include 16&17yr olds, it will consist of a yes/no vote for independence from the UK.
I also predict Scotland will vote to remain in the UK.
Over the next couple of years the 'Europe' question will be answered.
As we are all aware, politics is a funny old game and can change massively in very short timeframes. The upcoming recession-recovery cycle will have a part to play.
My personal opinion is that if Dave wants a second term as PM he might well need Labour to lose a chunk of Scottish MPs as the Lib Dems will probably come close to annihilation unless Clegg manages to engineer a massive rift from the Tories.
Time will tell...
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 23:24
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I think you're right.
I really can't understand the hostility from south of the border against the Scots though. May some colonial hangover.
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Looking at the way the whole EU is going, this next decade is going to be a big shake up for many countries, so if Scotland are to make a break for it, might be worth being there at the start of whatever evolves from it.
Certainly being a smaller, more adaptable state may be no bad thing.
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It seems such a shame
When the English claim
The Earth,
That they give rise
To such hilarity
And mirth.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
Hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo,
He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
Hm, hm, hm, hm, hm, hm.
Noel Coward
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>> I really can't understand the hostility from south of the border against the Scots though.
>> May some colonial hangover.
Dont be silly, the idea of colonies died during the second world war, and most of us are to young to even know what colonialism is let alone still be suffering a hangover.
The truth of the matter is that the hostility is brewed North to South, the Scots dislike the English far more than the other way round, and its this alone that breeds and feeds the antipathy. In truth the English would love the Scots to be independent. It would be bad for both of us politically and economically on the global stage, but culturally we would be happy to be shot of them and the constant whining about how unfair it all is and how they are under Westminster jackboot and how they are constantly being screwed and held back by the English.
And Northern Ireland should be dumped back into Eire. Funny that the Houses of the Oireachtas does not go on about re-unification, happy for us to have the agro and expense.
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>> the Scots dislike the English far more than the other way round, and its this alone that
>> breeds and feeds the antipathy
Take Rugby Union for example. Guess who the Scots and Welsh support:
- Scotland vs England
- Wales vs England
- NI vs England
- France vs. England
- Italy vs England
- Australia vs England
etc.
It's not England all to often and it's wrong. And I am Welsh.
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>> I predict the referendum will be in 2014, it will not include 16&17yr olds, it will consist of a
>> yes/no vote for independence from the UK.
>> I also predict Scotland will vote to remain in the UK.
This sounds about right to me too.... if the vote is yes/no then it will most likely be no. If Salmond get a third option it muddies the vote.
I can see it being cheaper for all if we continue at the UK as is.
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If Salmond gets the DevoMax option in to the referendum, then it'll be the winner. He probably will too - it'll be easy to find evidence of popular appeal for that option and then harder to deny it.
And in my opinion that's what he wants at this stage, or he wouldn't be proposing it.
He was talking last night about an independent Scotland keeping the pound, unless a referendum wants the Euro. Given it has been amply demonstrated that fiscal union without political union doesn't work, he can't be serious about that or independence in the near term.
Now that the topic is firmly on the agenda, Salmond can't lose - he either ends up with more powers, or more largesse from Westminster to calm the restless natives.
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>> He was talking last night about an independent Scotland keeping the pound,
Despite the fact he blames any problems in Scotland on Westminsters "disastrous Thatcherite economic policies"? No that's a case of "if we cock up the English and Welsh can pay for it" He made sure that was the only alternative by offering the deeply unpopular Euro in the other corner.
But we digress the key fact is this.
He has no legal mandate under the Scotland act, which set up the devolved powers, to hold a legally binding referendum. This is in fact a "consultative and advisory" poll, with no powers at all. Under the Scottish act a poll with legal powers to enact any result would require a "section 30" order authorised by Westminster and Holyrood. This is what was offered to him if he ran the poll this year, but funnily he turned it down.
Anyway, keep an eye out for the number of times Salmond manages to get the words "Thatcher" and "Tory" into any discourse about the referendum. Its a good game to play.
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He would want full independence but is more likely to get a 'no' in a yes/no vote than a yes/wee bit/no - since the Scottish parliamentary elections will happen soon after a referendum, failure to deliver anything in the referendum would likely hurt the general election performance.
What the SNP rely on is the generally recognised international right of countries to be self-governing - whatever the legality at present if one of the 4 countries demonstrated a democratic desire to leave the Union then it would be untenable for the rest of the Union not to allow this process.
>> Despite the fact he blames any problems in Scotland on Westminsters "disastrous Thatcherite economic policies"? No that's a case of "if we cock up the English and Welsh can pay for it"
This is simply wrong - pretty much every case where a weaker economy has tied itself to a stronger currency without political union has ended in tears for the weaker economy when it comes time to balance the books (Greece, Italy, Spain, Argentina, etc).
>> keep an eye out for the number of times Salmond manages to get the words "Thatcher" and "Tory" into any discourse about the referendum
In Scotland these words have lost a large amount of their power since 1997 - the SNP majority is a direct result of the perception of labour failure/mismanagement - Salmond risks looking out of touch with the Scots by pushing this rhetoric (its 20 yrs since Thatcher resigned).
Salmond is a slimy politician, like all the rest - no better, no worse - he's got a job to do and he'll do it to the best of his abilities (whatever they may be).
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generally recognised international right of countries to be self-governing
And that has stuck in the craw of the British for generations, especially when talking about ex-Empire countries, look at the fuss every time the Australians want to get rid of an unelected foreign head of state....I know that the Queen has no real power over the way the Aussies run their country but still...
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>> generally recognised international right of countries to be self-governing
>>
>> And that has stuck in the craw of the British for generations, especially when talking
>> about ex-Empire countries, look at the fuss every time the Australians want to get rid
>> of an unelected foreign head of state....I know that the Queen has no real power
>> over the way the Aussies run their country but still...
British Colonialism was good for THIS country - which, after all as the real intent of it. There were very obvious benefits for the colonies, too,
I blame Macmillan and his notorious "winds of change" speech, coupled with the USA's stab in the back at Suez, for the acceleration of the decline of Great Britain.
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India, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Kenya etc etc are still reaping those "benefits"
I blame Macmillan and his notorious "winds of change" speech, coupled with the USA's stab in the back at Suez, for the acceleration of the decline of Great Britain.
Get real, the UK bankrupted itself to America at the start of WW2 - the "empire" was history as soon as the first shots were fired, with countries queueing up to free themselves from imperialist chains so they could determine their own shaky futures. We had no way of enforcing Pax Britannica any more. Why should the USA have backed us in Suez, they owed us nothing, we owed them billions.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 12 Jan 12 at 09:24
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>> I blame Macmillan and his notorious "winds of change" speech, coupled with the USA's stab
>> in the back at Suez, for the acceleration of the decline of Great Britain.
Do you really think we had the right to militarily invade and dictate to Egypt what they can and cant do?
I'll tell you what accelerated the decline of this country, and the disrespect in the rest of the world? Dinosaur thinking like yours. YOU and your ilk are responsible.
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>>
>> Do you really think we had the right to militarily invade and dictate to Egypt
>> what they can and cant do?
>>
>
More a sense (then) of not getting the nod from USA beforehand rather any sense of right or wrong in the case of suez.
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>> generally recognised international right of countries to be self-governing
>>
>> And that has stuck in the craw of the British for generations, especially when talking
>> about ex-Empire countries, look at the fuss every time the Australians want to get rid
>> of an unelected foreign head of state....I know that the Queen has no real power
>> over the way the Aussies run their country but still...
>>
Oh do change the colonial record PU, of course its not stuck in the craw are you living in some kind of social time warp?, I don't see ANYONE complaining about the Aussies wanting a new head of state, its generally recognised by them and us that when the queen dies they will dump the monarchy, and good for them.
Not sure Charlie has grasped that yet tho.
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Exactly Zero ! Jamaica is the next one that wants to bail out (last track on that particular record)
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>> Exactly Zero ! Jamaica is the next one that wants to bail out (last track
>> on that particular record)
In fact, I think the commonwealth will, (and should) break up and dissolve when the queen dies.
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"Salmond is a slimy politician, like all the rest - no better, no worse - he's got a job to do and he'll do it to the best of his abilities (whatever they may be)."
..and he's a fat, ugly, devious snake-oil salesman, too!
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Fat and ugly well that put him in his place Roger..;)
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Salmond is many things, but he is without any doubt good at what he does - about as close to Tony Blair as Scotland can produce. He makes the Westminster lot look wooden and at sea with their message, thats why he wiped the floor with everyone else in the elections.
I was talking to my nan, who's father was Scottish and she said that many Scottish people actually value 'being Scottish', its a badge of pride and she also said that nationalism in Scotland was commonplace in the 40's when she lived there, but that there was never any realistic outlet for Scots to do much about it, but now there is, she reckons that Salmond could rekindle the flame in many older Scots.
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>>> ....to Tony Blair as Scotland can produce
Not so hard as you think, seeing Blair is Scottish. Many also overlook that he attended Fettes - the Eton of Scotland, so had all the 'advantages' available educationally as Cameron and his ilk.
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>> ..and he's a fat, ugly, devious snake-oil salesman, too!
He's nae the easiest on the eye, but I rate him higher than the Etonian crew running Westminster at present. They've really showed them bankers, what?
All politicians in power need to sell snake-oil.
By the tankerload.
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I sat next to Alex Salmond once many years ago on the London to Edinburgh shuttle flight. His politics were then, and indeed remain not mine but I found him personable enough. He was clearly intelligent and I have to say I rather enjoyed our conversation. His arguments in favour of his then political beliefs were well constructed although to be fair I didn't push him very hard. More of a chat really. Didn't make me want to vote for him but I ended up quite liking the guy if that makes any kind of sense.
I also met David Steel a couple of times through family connections / events. Truly charming chap. Big into his cars so that made him ok in my book !
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He is no fool Alex sharp brain.My favorite Scot who should have been prime minister of the UK was John Smith.
Unfortenately hart attack stopped him in his tracks.
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>> He is no fool Alex sharp brain.My favorite Scot who should have been prime minister
>> of the UK was John Smith.
>>
>> Unfortenately hart attack stopped him in his tracks.
Its a pity that other Scot, Broon, wasn't stopped in his tracks before we managed to derail him at the ballot box.
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Anybody see "The Hunt for Tony Blair"(Comic Strip Presents) over Christmas, filmed in film noir style, excellent script, brilliant acting, by far the best was Nigel Planer as Peter M.
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>>Unfortenately hart attack stopped him in his tracks. <<
He was killed by a Stag???
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ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/01/13/833111/salmond-is-on-the-hook/
A very good article.
(registration is free).
Copyright prevents copying. The FT WILL prosecute..
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seems to work without registering for me !
I found the second article, about the bloke who paid £17,000,000 for a (fake) Rothko more interesting.I saw an exhibition of Rothko when the Tate Liverpool opened, and if ever there was 'art' to make you think who's taking the wee wee here, its Rothko
But if you've got 17 mill to spare for a coloured canvas that you could have bought from John Lewises for a hundred quid, perhaps your money is better in somebody elses hands ?
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Can't help thinking that we are better together than apart.
Oil won't last forever.
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Scotland if independent will have lots of debt -£270bn - and a budget deficit of nearly 30% of GDP
"Scotland continues to practice Ponzi scheme government"
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9018567/Independent-Scotland-would-have-270bn-debt-pile.html
All lies: Scotland can survive in Independence eating neeps and tatties.
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>> Scotland if independent will have lots of debt -£270bn - and a budget deficit of
>> nearly 30% of GDP
>>
>> "Scotland continues to practice Ponzi scheme government"
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9018567/Independent-Scotland-would-have-270bn-debt-pile.html
Telegraph's take on numbers.
We simply don't know what the deficit would be as there's no agreed basis for calcualtion.
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Alex Salmond is like a 70's union boss....either hopelessly or wilfully head in sand, unable or unwilling to look at any bigger picture...sticking to the script.......doing everything in his power to increase the lot of his members (sorry constituents), whether or not it is sensible or reasonable.
Scotland on its' own is unsustainable in the guise it is in at the moment. It takes more out of the pot than it puts in.
I'm not anti-Scottish by the way...recently my wife and I very seriously considered going to live there and it was really only young kids and family 550 miles away that decided it.
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I think the biggest issue is that should Scotland decide to leave and it all goes wrong, judging by opinion polls there is little appetite from the English population to offer any help, especially financially.
Infact, I think that there is prob more distaste for the money given to Scotland than there is for that which goes to the EU, though it may be a close run thing.
When times are hard, people generally find it much harder to reconcile themselves to subsidising everyone else, hence the EU, foreign aid and now Scotland make such good healdines when it comes to the money.
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".......and it was really only young kids and family 550 miles away that decided it."
So when did you move?? :-]
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>> Telegraph's take on numbers.
>>
>> We simply don't know what the deficit would be as there's no agreed basis for
>> calcualtion.
Daily Mash's take on the Daily Telegraph:
tinyurl.com/7wxf55k
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Scotland's deficit is no worse than that of the UK as a whole.
9-10 billion this year vs 160bn for the UK.
The entire UK is an unsustainable Ponzi scheme.
In fact, thinking about it, pretty much the whole world is.
The net creditors are about to feel the pinch as the net debtors have to promote austerity measures and stop buying from them.
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The inimitable Steve Bell
tinyurl.com/7xe4akt (yesterday)
tinyurl.com/6qsm4l9 (today)
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It is confusing.Ireland is one country in my opinion.The Northen bit was due to King William.
A religulous war Catholics and Protestants.
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An in depth and thought provoking essay on the troubles in Ireland there Dutchy, with much to ponder - perhaps a little brief.
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OK, I'll add another volume to Dutchie's
The current mess is David Lloyd George's fault.
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>>The current mess is David Lloyd George's fault<<
Yeah, I thought a blimmin Cymro would have a hand in it somewhere.
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 19:38
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He was a deeply flawed man - seen as a national hero by many, he basically was a bad man. He was the "cometh the hour, cometh the man" sort of chap in WW1 but a lot of what he did was deeply flawed.
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I'll have to study him *big time* I think, as I came up against him over the Xmas period during WW1.
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>>I keep meaning to buy this - I'll get round to it one day - apparently a definitive book<<
Thanks - I've just reserved it from the Library = 50p :)
My main interest in him is regarding WW1 and it amazes me that people like him and Churchill happen to be in the right place at the right time, or so it appears.
And now you've mentioned it, I'll also be interested to read about the creation of Northern Ireland in 1921.
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His memoirs are freely available, two/too big volumes (about the size of his ego), they await reading here, I doubt whether they are contrite or humble must get round to reading those as well :-(
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Bit like my "A History Of Political Theory" by George H. Sabine and Thomas L. Thorson,
given to me by my Accountant/medium ... I will read it, one day.
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>> He was a deeply flawed man - seen as a national hero by many, he
>> basically was a bad man. He was the "cometh the hour, cometh the man" sort
>> of chap in WW1 but a lot of what he did was deeply flawed.
certainly was in the run-up to WW2,
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An apologist for Hitler - Lost the plot by then. He is revered around here, very good orator but that's about it.
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Very good orator but that's about it!
Most influential prime minister of the twentieth century by far.
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>>Most influential prime minister of the twentieth century by far<<
+1
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Possibly - He was certainly a skilled politician........my money is on Chamberlain - he saved this country.
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>> Possibly - He was certainly a skilled politician........my money is on Chamberlain - he saved
>> this country.
>>
Spot on, Rob...He bought us time to re-arm. Clem Attlee was under-rated as wartime deputy...kept the wheels of the country turning while WC did all the publicity stuff.
Ted
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At the time of his premiership there were two Welsh speaking heads of state in the world.
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Just surfed into S4C and Ffion Hague (William's Mrs) is hosting a documentary on Megan Lloyd George (DLlG's daughter) with subtitles. How spooky is that ?
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Don't believe it ! He was involved in murky politics on Anglesey - plus ça change !
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I was in Anglesey earlier - A place in the sun, home or away ... they chose Spain ;)
www.channel4.com/programmes/a-place-in-the-sun-home-or-away/4od#2925738
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 22:24
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Don't blame them. It's a very strange place, the past is everywhere, it even scared the Romans.
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Was that where the Druids had their final battle with the Romans, or am I thinking of Scara Brae or somewhere?
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Yes, it was in Anglesey in AD60, then the Irish colonised it in the 5th century until the Scots drove them out!!
As I say ~ funny ole life :)
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>> An apologist for Hitler - Lost the plot by then. He is revered around here,
>> very good orator but that's about it.
>>
English too!
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>> Who Hitler ?
>>
No. David Lloyd George.
Born in England.
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Of Welsh parents in Welsh speaking home, his family came from Ceredigion and Caernarfonshire - He'd play rugby for Wales I think. Hence my Hitler question. I have a cousin born in Germany - doesn't make him German !
He was known as the "Welsh Wizard" by his contemporaries - bit of a clue in that nickname.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 12 Jan 12 at 13:57
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I think his parents would count a domiciled in Wales even if working in England at time of his birth.
His grandson, the 3rd Lord Tenby, is one of the herditaries still sitting in the Lords.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 12 Jan 12 at 14:07
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>> I have a cousin>> born in Germany - doesn't make him German !
>>
So, for example, if a Jamaican couple came to Wales, had children; those children would not be Welsh?
Supposing another couple from overseas came to Wales, had children, in turn those children would not be Welsh by your yardstick.
Supposing the offspring of those two couples met and had children. At what point according to your system would any descendants be Welsh?
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>> Supposing the offspring of those two couples met and had children. At what point according
>> to your system would any descendants be Welsh?
Any of them could choose to regard themselves as Welsh. But if the children were brought up in a Jamaican/West Indian culture they would probably not.
Children born to familes serving with the BAOR would not regard themselves as German unless they eventually settled there as civvys.
LG was born to Welsh speaking chapel goers who lived/worked for a time in Manchester. As soon as father fell ill they returned to Pembrokeshire. When he died they moved near to Porthmadog and his mother's family. They were never anything but Welsh
Home is where the heart is!!
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In your children's lifetime mankind will colonise Mars but children born there wont be Martians.
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So he's not Welsh at all. So history will have to re-brand him as "the genetically Welsh English born Wizard*".
I also now have a German cousin!
* In no way does the word "Wizard" imply that that DLG ever wore s pointy hat with stars on it (other than for unconnected occasional social events) or performed spells and magic connected to the occult or subscribe to any belief associated with paganism
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If you read my post, you will realize that I was asking a question - tongue in cheek certainly - but not stating an opinion or fact.
So; we can choose what nationality we are?
Very interesting, I would have thought that one's nationality would be a question of fact, not opinion.
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>> Very interesting, I would have thought that one's nationality would be a question of fact,
>> not opinion.
Let's muck about with the facts. Assume his father chose a career in the colonial service rather than in teaching. Job in Calcutta rather than Manchester.
Would that make Lloyd George an Indian?
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Does being born in Malta make me a Malteser?
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...Does being born in Malta make me a Malteser?...
Yes.
In London in the 1970s and 1980s there were quite a few Maltese running sandwich bars, and it seemed, the soft-porn business in Soho - peep shows and the like.
They were called Maltesers.
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>> Does being born in Malta make me a Malteser?
No, it makes you a damn immigrant. You should be sent back,
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>> >>The current mess is David Lloyd George's fault<<
>>
>> Yeah, I thought a blimmin Cymro would have a hand in it somewhere.
>>
Relax, Doggo........he was born about a mile from my hovel in Yarburgh Street, Manchester 15. There used to be a blue plaque on the house but it's disappeared due to demolition.
Social housing now....probably melted down for a couple of quid !
Ted
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You are right Zero I have never been ay good at essays,you good right a book about Ireland.
I watch once a intervieuw of a Dutch journalist with the Referend Ian Paisly.It reminded me of somebody talking a language going back to the dark ages.Holland was and still is mainly a Protestant country and the Catholics under direction of various popes caused havoc and mayhem in the low lands .You will believe in our way of live or you be killed and killed they where in the Netherlands the ordinary folk.But there comes a time you have to move on.And they did in the end in Ireland.Religious people can be very violent.
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A tribal war, actually.
More or less native Celts (label Catholic) V imported North British Celts (label Protestant).
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Not sure I thought I'd ever say this but I agree with Roger!!
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The Celts had been crossing backwards and forwards for centuries. There wasnt really a "native" or "imported" celt.
I blame Pope Celestine I in 431 AD
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 19:49
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The term "united" comes from the 1707 act of union - "united into one kingdom"
see
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/rise_parliament/docs/articles_union.htm
where it was referred to as the united kingdom of Great Britain and of the dominions.
Last edited by: Biggles on Wed 11 Jan 12 at 20:19
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16779891
"Scottish lingerie tycoon Michelle Mone has threatened to move to England if Scotland votes for independence."
Presume she thinks it'll go tits up...
Probably making a mountain out of a molehill...
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Salmond hasn't thought through his ego trip.
I just hope the voters are not as gullible as he thinks they are.
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I've often thought there should be some sort of IQ test taken before being allowed to vote. Not a test of political opinion of course but just enough to establish whether those voting are capable of making an informed decision.
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Only the stupid should be allowed to vote. Intelligent people are far too dangerous.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16779891
>>
>> "Scottish lingerie tycoon Michelle Mone has threatened to move to England if Scotland votes for
>> independence."
Michelle Mone could have the top off my egg any morning!
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I've heard she is quite highly regarded in the lingerie world, but I dare say she's got her knockers.
:)
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Prominently placed knockers - Alex Fishead for one.
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Scotland - In or Out? - Westpig
