www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16439890
So in many other jobs, you struggle to get breaks due to the demands of the job. Ambulance crews have been offered a one-off payment of £1500 and £100 for every time their breaks are interrupted. But this has been refused by the Union.
So should they accept this and get on with it or are they right to hold onto the "rights" of the job?
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Blimey, with Dave shattering the nurse illusion the health professional image is taking a bashing.
£1500 one off and £100 each time a break is interrupted and they've rejected it?
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A union bloke on the radio was saying it's not about the money, the staff need proper breaks because the job is so stressful.
We all have different tolerances to different things, but it seems to me if you need uninterrupted breaks to stay sane, you shouldn't work as an ambulance man.
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30 years in a job where almost every break is interrupted, or you are waiting to be interrupted, doesn't help sanity.
How about not paying the £1500 + £100/break, and spluffing the same loot on more crews?
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Daughter regularly does her 12 hour shifts without a break, busy urban environment, I suppose.
Usually manages to grab something from Greggs or somewhere while her partner minds the van.
Lunch is taken on the hoof...I'm sure she'd go for the money offered.
Now, if we could only get her onto salads !
Ted
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Over a 12 hour shift, we get:
A 20 minute paid break. During this time we can be disturbed for a Cat-A or Cat-B call with no recompense.
A 30 minute unpaid break. We can opt to be 'disturbable' and receive £25 (less tax and NI) if disturbed.
Their deal sounds to good to be true, if it's as reported.
Last edited by: Dieselboy on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 23:55
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Interesting one.
Money is not always the issue with stressful jobs.
My current employer sent all the team I work in on one of those how to be a better sales person courses (but we don't sell and can't sell because we are not licensed) but some of the points raised were very valid in everyday life.
Our normal day is:
Spend 2.5 driving to a customer.
Stay with the customer for 7 hours looking over their data.
Spend about 2 hours driving home.
The course leader was insistent that we took a lunch break. We don't usually because we get home quicker if we don't stop for lunch.
Truth is, on taking the lunch break we still finish at the same time and get the same amount of work done.
The rationale is that break makes us more efficient in the afternoon and gives us time to gather our thoughts.
I certainly feel better for it and the rest and from reviewing our work stats, the same amount of work gets done.
Considering the work that paramedics do, I would reckon that the breaks are very important. I want a refreshed paramedic looking after me, not a flagged out one!
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Aimed at Iffy...
I assume you have never worked as an ambulance man then? Super human we are not. After, for eg, a serious RTC, 2 cardiac arrests and a drunk trying to fight you, would you not fancy a little uninterrupted sit down?
Last edited by: Dieselboy on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 23:58
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Quite right DB. Daughter spent one Good Friday with a body bag and litter picker on the railway at Gatley station.. Policeman arrived to do the death report. He said he would be given next day off. NHS crew dropped the bits off and went straight back on the road........to another suicide. No time off for them !
Ted
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...Aimed at Iffy...
Realistically, how often are your breaks interrupted?
And how often would you get the above string of jobs, one after the other, with no breaks?
I could list lots of exciting/stressful things I do, and tell you how under pressure I am working to deadlines.
The truth of the matter is the stressful things are few and far between, much of the rest is routine, and most days I can take my breaks if I want them.
If you want a steady job with routine hours and breaks, don't become a paramedic - or a journalist.
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And how often would you get the above string of jobs, one after the other, with no breaks?
Living in a rural area, I often see Ambulance parked at strategic locations waiting for calls - not a pleasant or relaxing way to hang around between calls.
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...not a pleasant or relaxing way to hang around between calls...
Ambulances are plotted around leafy North Yorkshire as well.
The spots they pick are nice enough, usually off a quiet road on the outskirts of a village.
Boredom would be the main enemy - too easy to resort to the crisps and Mars bars.
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Well I'm not out to inflame any ambulance staff but I've first hand experience of them having their break. A colleague was injured and the ambulance itself was 200 yards away, with the crew inside the rest room. I ran down to them and despite pleading they stuck resolutely to the break. It's always been understood that in the emergncy services you forego your break for , well, an emergency. There are quieter moments at other times and to my mind, to stick steadfastly to a break time is outside the spirit of the work emergency service staff choose to undertake.
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...to stick steadfastly to a break time is outside the spirit of the work emergency service staff choose to undertake...
Same in my game, although 'shouts' probably happen less often.
The pay-off is there are plenty of times when I'm less than flat out.
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They're unionised Woodster - and rules is rules.
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>> They're unionised Woodster - and rules is rules.
That's what unions are for.
And suppose a crewman works through their break and makes a serious error due to fatigue - somebody will have to be 'held accountable'. Will the manager take the rap or try and dump on the employee?
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>> >> They're unionised Woodster - and rules is rules.
>>
>> That's what unions are for.
>>
Aye.... when it suits them to be.
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Police Officers are paid for the 'lunch hours' so its not an issue. They are classed a concession rather than an an entitlement.
In total the number of disturbed refs breaks were few but that was dependent on the number of other available patrols to cover incidents and the particular shift, late turn was the usual one for interruptions.
One bobby came unstuck when they nipped out in their private car during their refs break and had a bump. They were not covered for business use and it was held that as they were at work and still being paid then they should have had business cover :-(
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...Well I'm not out to inflame any ambulance staff but I've first hand experience of them having their break. A colleague was injured and the ambulance itself was 200 yards away, with the crew inside the rest room. I ran down to them and despite pleading they stuck resolutely to the break. It's always been understood that in the emergncy services you forego your break for , well, an emergency. There are quieter moments at other times and to my mind, to stick steadfastly to a break time is outside the spirit of the work emergency service staff choose to undertake....
Ambulance Service is not an emergency service.
The 30 minute break is unpaid. I would, subject to control authorising the interrupted break, have helped your friend.
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Well, yes, I'm sure most staff would have helped. I should've made it clear that I don't expect I encountered the norm. Not an emergency service? Is that by legal definition? Not sure many people would regard obtaining the service of paramedics by calling 999 something other than an emergency service.
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Tis an Essential Service. There is currently a campaign rumbling on to change it to an Emergency Service, but that would involve bringing our conditions of employment in line with the Fuzz and Cat Rescue. That's not going to happen.
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>> Tis an Essential Service. There is currently a campaign rumbling on to change it to
>> an Emergency Service, but that would involve bringing our conditions of employment in line with
>> the Fuzz and Cat Rescue. That's not going to happen.
>>
Unfortunately it is beginning to sound as if the ambulance staff can't hack it.
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>> Unfortunately it is beginning to sound as if the ambulance staff can't hack it.
I inferred that the police and fire service personnel cost quite a lot more than the ambulance service, and "they" won't want to pay to bring the ambulance into line.
I further inferred that Db wouldn't mind at all if they did, far from suggesting he doesn't want more pay, better pension, and earlier retirement. But I sometimes grab the stick at the wrong end.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 8 Jan 12 at 19:35
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The only emergency service is the fire service.
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>> The only emergency service is the fire service.
>>
Until the armed forces take over when they go on strike.
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...I inferred that the police and fire service personnel cost quite a lot more than the ambulance service, and "they" won't want to pay to bring the ambulance into line.
I further inferred that Db wouldn't mind at all if they did, far from suggesting he doesn't want more pay, better pension, and earlier retirement. But I sometimes grab the stick at the wrong end....
Who wouldn't want all of the above? Not going to get it though so no point in campaigning is my humble opinion.
Not sure how 'not being able to hack it' relates to the inference though.
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>>Not sure how 'not being able to hack it' relates to the inference though.
It doesn't. It was a quote. I was drawing a different conclusion. Was I wrong?
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"Until the armed forces take over when they go on strike."
Not anymore. Private companies are paid a retainer to step in. Afraid you're living in the past (1977), keep up.
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I forgot, the armed forces have been so run down that they have trouble keeping up with the current wars. Heaven forbid they might be told to defend our interests or country, or provide support during a national disaster.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 14:23
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That's what happens when you have a Tory government. Cuts all round. Armed services not immune.
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I suffered both shades of government during my time in the forces. In my experience I would prefer the tories to be in power to provide our defence, and certainly to look after the well being of the personnel. Not much in it though.
The politicians don't seem to understand that we are no longer a world power.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 9 Jan 12 at 14:52
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"Tis an Essential Service. There is currently a campaign rumbling on to change it to an Emergency Service, but that would involve bringing our conditions of employment in line with the Fuzz and Cat Rescue. That's not going to happen."
Well knock me down with a feather!!!! I have never seen the Ambulance Service as anything other than an emergency service.
I have nothing but admiration for the work of the Ambulance Service where I live and work. Always nice to hand over the blood, snot and gore to someone else. The Service has come a long way from 'hump and dump' to highly skilled paramedics.
The way in which conditions of service have been eroded for the 'Fuzz and Cat Rescue' over the years there really cannot be much in it can there??
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Any ambulance crew that behaves in a selfish jobsworth manner when someone says there's an emergency should immediately be stripped of its blues and twos and the ambulance painted pink, or some colour designating disgrace, until the crew has shown that it knows how to behave.
The technical claim that the ambulance service is not an emergency service is quite shocking to me. How dare these carphounds drive around flashing their lights and making a clamour if they aren't an emergency service. It's simply vainglorious, and an anomaly.
If they can have blues and twos, why can't I?
Tchah!
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...If they can have blues and twos, why can't I?...
Believe me, you don't want them. Although you'd have great fun trying to second guess the next move of the driver in front.
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The ambulance service should be rolled into the fire service. The two are frequently side by side anyway, and its the way its organised in a lot of countries.
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I seem to remember the AA spluffing a chunk on an advertising campaign "The 4th Emergency Service".
Anyone know if it was pulled after a call from the Coastguard?
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is there still a coastguard? thought tjhey were trying to eradicate them.
Does the RNLI class as an emergency service?
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>> Anyone know if it was pulled after a call from the Coastguard?
Or the Mountain Rescue.
Shades of those offended by Dave's mention of Tourettes. There were/are knocking a dozen services entitled to use blue lights
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The AA is a assistance service I would have thought.
Police Fire and Ambulance are emergency services or not?
When I see a Ambulance with blue lights and siren that to me is a emergency or are they kidding.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16614117
Resolution - no extra money - shorter working week but no protection to break times.
Seems a sensible result rather than the previous offers from the service to try to plug the gaps with cash.
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Wonder if I can get this introduced at work? £100 every time I have to put down my fork to talk on the radio or change the flight path will keep the beer fridge nicely stocked.
Plebs.
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Having just done 30 years in the Old Bill in our capital city, i've seen many angles from the other emergency services...inc having to cover ambulance calls in a police van when they went on strike in the late 80's or early 90's.
IMO ambulance staff are noticeably under paid compared to the other two. It is an often thankless task and they are always very, very welcome when i've been stuck somewhere doing my best, but not enough.
I think they should be properly looked after and that should include breaks, it should be factored in to their working conditions/practices, not just left to their guilt or conscience.
I hate unions with a vengeance and think they do more harm than good...also I hate jobsworths and the 'rules is rules' mentality...but i'm with the ambulance staff on this one...and think some of the dissent on here is 'typical armchair warriors'.
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Have you finished yet WP? You did say there was a bit of leave etc before you could officially enroll in NARPRO. You know you're there when you get that letter :S
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>> Have you finished yet WP? You did say there was a bit of leave etc
>> before you could officially enroll in NARPRO. You know you're there when you get that
>> letter :S
>>
Nearly there. Had my 30 in, in December. Haven't had Narpo letter yet, but can't wait?
Last paid day arrives in first week of Feb, although i've been off for a while, so i'm already vitually in civvy mode (although I can't help having a gander at oiks when they're out and about, wonder how long that takes to wear off...perhaps Ted can advise).
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>> Wonder if I can get this introduced at work? £100 every time I have to
>> put down my fork to talk on the radio or change the flight path will
>> keep the beer fridge nicely stocked.
>>
But aren't your working hours strictly controlled anyway?
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>>Wonder if I can get this introduced at work? £100 every time I have to put down my fork to talk on the radio or change the flight path will keep the beer fridge nicely stocked.
I think you missed the point - they were offered a chunk of money plus extra whenever they were interrupted but went instead for a fixed working week (of slightly shorter duration) where breaks are not protected.
Friday/Saturday nightshifts will be a 'mare I'd imagine.
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>> >> Wonder if I can get this introduced at work? £100 every time I have
>> to
>> >> put down my fork to talk on the radio or change the flight path
>> will
>> >> keep the beer fridge nicely stocked.
>> >>
>>
>> But aren't your working hours strictly controlled anyway?
>>
To an extent, but I can still legally work a 15 hour day. 17 hours if you add travel time to and from home to crew room via a staff bus that only runs every 25 minutes.
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Pfft lightweights - I used to start on-call Friday 5pm and finish Monday 5pm.
Breaks and sleep could be taken when possible. Sleep would be in fragments of 2-3 hours if lucky.
At least I wasn't responsible for anything important, like money.
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>> Pfft lightweights - I used to start on-call Friday 5pm and finish Monday 5pm.
>>
>> Breaks and sleep could be taken when possible. Sleep would be in fragments of 2-3
>> hours if lucky.
...and that was very, very wrong. Who on this planet would want a doctor dealing with their medical emergency who's got trouble functioning properly due to extreme fatigue?
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>>To an extent, but I can still legally work a 15 hour day<<
Same as lorry drivers but out our cargo has to be loaded, secured down and unloaded.
Yours walks on and off.
Pat
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>> Yours walks on and off.
>>
>> Pat
>>
And the freight and baggage is loaded for him. :-)
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>> >>To an extent, but I can still legally work a 15 hour day<<
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>> Same as lorry drivers but out our cargo has to be loaded, secured down and
>> unloaded.
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>> Yours walks on and off.
>>
>> Pat
>>
Try filling out one of these instead and see if you want to swap :-)
i.imgur.com/75cII.png
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>> Try filling out one of these instead and see if you want to swap :-)
>>
>> i.imgur.com/75cII.png
>>
And if you get it wrong....
www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2011/airbus_a321_211__g_niko.cfm
(airbus took off from Manchester using wrong speeds due error on loadsheets).
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 09:55
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Only if I can have the cab window open:)
Pat
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>> Only if I can have the cab window open:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Done. Gets a bit breezy past two hundred knots though.
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We should have been so lucky. We had one official break each day ~ 3/4 hour lunch break. If it was interrupted by someone then it was just tough. Morning and afternoon "tea breaks" were completely unofficial and we were expected to carry on working whilst drinking our tea. Overtime was unpaid. Obviously we were entitled to be a member of a trade union, but the management excercised their right to not talk to a union representative so effectively we had no union representation. There were no fixed salary scales, so all in all it was a case of divide and rule. If you didn't like it you knew where the door was.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 06:42
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>> The ambulance service should be rolled into the fire service. The two are frequently side by side anyway, and its the way its organised in a lot of countries.
No - they should remain as separate services.
I don't know how often which emergency services are called, but I guess ambulances are called more often than police/fire services.
I have a great respect for paramedics and fire fighters (bit less for police as I think they somewhat became pen pushers lately). They do need sufficient breaks (although I don't know how much is their average workload). Govt. should employ sufficient number of personnel and not resort to make them overworked.
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"Govt. should employ sufficient number of personnel and not resort to make them overworked."
I am convinced that no matter how many ambulances and crew are on the road, they will always be run ragged.
The public's attitude has changed.
Ambulances are no longer for life threatening emergencies (despite what they say on the side). They are for those who don't have the inclination to use their brains to seek an alternative method of treatment, those who do need to go to hospital, but treat the ambulance service as a free taxi service, and those who blatantly take the urine. Of course there are genuine emergencies, but not every job.
Last edited by: Dieselboy on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 15:17
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Yet if you put any form of remote triage or qualification criteria in for dispatching an ambulance you will take a pasting in the press.
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And I can guess how much backup from their bosses a crew would get if they told a customer to go and buy a sticky plaster and it all went pear shaped after they had left.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 19 Jan 12 at 17:12
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Break entitlements for ambulance staff - -
