Ok ill bite, ive found the whole story quite funny. I dont find what she said funny, it was the kind of gaffe even JC would struggle to make, but that it was entirely predictable given she has some form on the issue.
What occurs to me is the question of how Milliband handles the issue. I can see he is in a rather difficult position because not only is she an ethnic minority ( I rather hate that term btw, I find it very divisive ) but also a woman.
If he treats her too harshly, Labour can be labelled as against both those groups by their critics, so even if he did want to sack her, Im not sure he could.
On the otherhand, the sort of sensitive types who genuinely have a passion for peoples rights, those who like the modern politically correct ways of doing things, those who vote centre-left, wont like what she said much either regardless of what context she puts it in - nobody ever asks Griffin about his context when he utters his bile.
So far Labour has distanced itself from her comments and I can see why they are sitting on the fence. The BBC however were quick off the mark this morning at at 8am I was listening to a phone-in on 5 Live - it could have been confined to the papers but they have highlighted it on peoples drives to work, which is not good for Labour to have a story about a 'racist Labour shadow minister' on prime time media.
In all honesty, I think Milliband made a mistake appointing her and with rising stars in the party like Chuka Ummuna who are very media savvy, did he really need the hassle of the Abbott?
It may run and run or it may die down, we shall see in the next few days, but the Mail is wailing now ( although curiously didnt make mention of it till after 10am so whay behind the BBC ) and they do reach alot of people. What wont help was that until she got told off by Ed, she didnt seem to have any intention of an apology or deleting the tweet, which really wont play well for her personally.
Its a gift for the Coalition, xmas has come late but crikey what a present, for Ed, it just adds to his woes.
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Abbott only got where she is because she is a minority in more than one category.
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She's got a habit of mis-judging what she says and does. I have a close relative in the civil service who was tasked with clearing up after her when her party was in power - one notable foot in gob incident was Desert Island Discs who refused to co-operate by not broadcasting some ill-informed comments.
She also has, it seems, a dis-honest streak in not declaring earnings to the house - she was sorry about that as well.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 5 Jan 12 at 18:25
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What has (Diane presumably) Abbott said? She's on the right of the Labour Party anyway.
I can't be bothered with Twitterror or Mugtome, so I usually miss this stuff until I get it predigested from the mainstream media. But if anyone has a fruitful link to post....
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16423278
Low and behold, its Chuka himself they wheel out to denounce Abbott. Ouch, good move though.
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The annoying thing she has a point (which has been largely ignored) I had some dealings with the local Mosque over the years - there is a "Muslim community" in the eyes of the so called "community leaders" but interestingly the young Muslims didn't recognise them as representing "their" "community" - hugely complex and sensitive area of work and ignorance rules.
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I think the problem for Abbott is that she has made borderline comments before so what she said this time has been viewed in that context.
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Just as I expected, a faffing storm in a chipped, stained Labour Party tea mug.
Diane Abbott is still OK in my book. The Labour leadership and its running dog Chuka Thing look stupid to me. All she was doing was presenting a mirror image of the sort of crude guff that is absolutely commonplace from the other direction.
Are we hurt and humiliated? Is the accusation that we 'white people' love to divide and rule untrue, unfair, or ill-founded?
Tchah! What a total load of ovoids...
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>>All she was doing was presenting a mirror image of the sort of crude guff that is absolutely commonplace from the other direction.<<
Of course it is, but Peter Bone isnt in the Cabinet :-)
If anyone in the Tory party publically said something along the lines of 'asian people love playing 'divide&rule'. We should not play their game', they would already have their P45 in hand.
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>> If anyone in the Tory party publically said something along the lines of 'asian people love playing 'divide&rule'. We should not play their game', they would already have their P45 in hand.
And rightly so.
But when a black person or Asian says something more or less equivalent about 'white people' it isn't going to be interpreted as bullying and oppressive, except by utter twits.
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>> >> If anyone in the Tory party publically said something along the lines of 'asian
>> people love playing 'divide&rule'. We should not play their game', they would already have their
>> P45 in hand.
>>
>> And rightly so.
>>
>> But when a black person or Asian says something more or less equivalent about 'white
>> people' it isn't going to be interpreted as bullying and oppressive, except by utter twits.
As a twit, why not? Such crap is food and fodder to the likes of the NF, yet stupid tarts like Dianne Abbott cant see it. Nor you it seems.
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>> food and fodder to the likes of the NF, yet stupid tarts like Dianne Abbott cant see it. Nor you it seems.
They can eat anything they like Zeddo. It won't make a blind bit of difference because the NF are three unpleasant halfwits and a stray dog, and that is their destiny.
Just mentioning them in this context underlines your overreaction. You are blowing some cocktail party blather out of all proportion.
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>> But when a black person or Asian says something more or less equivalent about 'white
>> people' it isn't going to be interpreted as bullying and oppressive, except by utter twits.
>>
I must be an 'utter twit' then. I found her statement offensive, not because I feel bullied or oppressed, but because it's one rule for one and a different rule for another.
Why should she be able to say 'all whites' etc....when i'm not able to say 'all blacks' etc (not that I would, I have enough brain to know there's good and bad in all and that sweeping statements like that are best left for the truly ignorant).
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Because she opens her king size gob before engaging her medium sized brain Westpig that's all....Bet she's sitting at home now not laughing at all !
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>> Just as I expected, a faffing storm in a chipped, stained Labour Party tea mug.
>>
>>
>> Diane Abbott is still OK in my book.
Not in my book, A stupid woman who rates her abilities far more than anyone else does, and frequently stirs up racial issues to "prove" the skills of her rhetoric.
In 1996, she commented that at her local hospital "blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" were unsuitable as nurses because they had "never met a black person before".
She referred to David Cameron and Nick Clegg as "two posh white boys" in May 2010
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>> "two posh white boys"
Good heavens! The insolence of it, coming from someone who knows a posh white boy when she sees one, being a posh black girl! String her up!
I didn't say she was perfect Zero, just OK. She has her role as a politician, somewhat contradictory with her second career in the chattering classes. She isn't nasty although like any politician I'm sure she can be when necessary.
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Look AC, most normal thinking white Anglo Saxons are already deeply aware of, embarrassed and subsequently tongue tied by past and current institutionalised racism. We don't need the likes of Abbott using inflammatory and racist terms, for no other good reason than to try and prove she is at one with her "roots" when in fact she is nothing more than a slightly darker typical comfortable middle class hypocrite who sent her son to public school.
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>> typical comfortable middle class hypocrite who sent her son to public school.
As any sane person would who could afford it, given the state of state education these days... But it is reassuring to see that you see the middle classes typically as comfortable hypocrites, for that is what we are in general.
I am as you know fully aware of standard WASP attitudes to these things. But I don't share this outrage over a bit of clumsiness from the other side. It's only inflammatory if masses of white closet racist twits huff and puff and say it is. I wouldn't give it a second glance myself, let alone go red in the face and strut around saying I was a victim of racism.
I think you are all pathetic. But you are not alone. You've got Miliband, Chuka, the reactionary hipster Toby Young and the wonderful conservative humanist (not) Janet Daley on your side. And no doubt many others by now.
TCHAH!
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>>
>> As any sane person would who could afford it, given the state of state education
>> these days...
Agreed
>>But it is reassuring to see that you see the middle classes typically
>> as comfortable hypocrites, for that is what we are in general.
The hypocrite is one that spouts left wing policy about state education for all....then sends their own kids to a better school...because they can.
>>
>> I am as you know fully aware of standard WASP attitudes to these things. But
>> I don't share this outrage over a bit of clumsiness from the other side. It's
>> only inflammatory if masses of white closet racist twits huff and puff and say it
>> is. I wouldn't give it a second glance myself, let alone go red in the
>> face and strut around saying I was a victim of racism.
It's not that angle, for me. It's the imbalance, the 'you can't do it, but I can'. Why? It creates conflict where there doesn't need to be any. Zero is right, it hands a degree of p.r. to the likes of the BNP and similar. It's only to a degree, because most decent folk wouldn't go anywhere near the BNP anyway.
>>
>> I think you are all pathetic.
Takes all sorts to make a world.
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>> Takes all sorts to make a world.
The Pathetic Majority... has a sort of ring to it, no? Anyway in most contexts I am sure I would qualify as a member in full standing.
This sort of thing underlines how damn difficult it is to be any sort of politician or public figure and get away with it every time. Look, I don't see Diane Abbott as unusually smart or a role model. She can be a bit clumsy sometimes. But so can a hell of a lot of others in public life.
Of course she wasn't joking like Jeremy Clarkson, she was trying to say something that had occurred to her and that might have been better left until she had worked out how to say it, if she still thought it was worth saying. But the lynch party now forming is just as absurd and faffingly self-righteous as the posse that went after Clarkson the other day.
If everyone was like me the remarks would have passed without comment and been forgotten within minutes. But they aren't like me, poor darlings.
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Toby Young
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100127409/was-diane-abbotts-tweet-racist/
" ... belief among some black Britons that "white people" are all, without exception, anti-black – that they're all, effectively, racist ..."
Janet Daley
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100127577/diane-abbott-insulted-black-people-more-than-whites/
".... something deeply patronising about the assumption that there is such a thing as the "black community" which is so monolithic and one-dimensional that it may be represented by a small handful of spokesmen. ... "
Last edited by: John H on Thu 5 Jan 12 at 18:46
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A stupid woman who rates her abilities far more than anyone else does
That's the insider's view of her. Not necessarily stupid though, just of average ability, and in some jobs you need to be above average. Letting people like her loose to Tweet must be a nightmare for the spin doctors.
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Isn't tweeting essentially a matter of keeping your hordes of fans up to date on your bowel movements and the state of your underwear?
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I don't know - I twitter not.
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>> Isn't tweeting essentially a matter of keeping your hordes of fans up to date on
>> your bowel movements and the state of your underwear?
>>
AC...please don't start tweeting........;-0
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>> please don't start tweeting....
It is strangely tempting. But I don't want to do it on twitter. Perhaps I will do it here.
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People like her get right up my nostrils.
She's not stupid enough to not know what she's done, or know in advance that this is inappropriate...what she's thought is she's invincible and no one will dare to challenge her, so why not?
The people out there who are disadvantaged due to race are done a huge amount of disservice by people like Diane Abbott ....because those in the majority who don't have to worry about skin colour and/or have no real understanding of the complicated issues involved, will however get annoyed by a black lady politician spouting stuff that no white person would dare say the other way around...and in fact would could possibly fall foul of legislation.
If it's wrong for one, it's wrong for the other.
If we are trying to encourage people to be educated in this field and move to the future with considerably more enlightened views than there have been in the past...what a backward step Miss Abbott's views must be, surely?
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WP,
She's been challenged time and time again for her silly comments (that she's subsequently been sorry for) - think she'd realise now. I had a colleague who used to write "dynamic" e-mails which he was always forced to apologise for, he wasn't sorry for certain !
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>> She's been challenged time and time again for her silly comments (that she's subsequently been
>> sorry for) - think she'd realise now. I had a colleague who used to write
>> "dynamic" e-mails which he was always forced to apologise for, he wasn't sorry for certain
>> !
If these people keep doing it...then the obvious answer is: that's their default, that's their natural angle and they can only hide from it for so long.
A white politician would be sacked, simple as that...if we're to respect each other regardless of religion, creed, skin colour etc...then it has to go all ways, not be ignored by some who think they're invincible.
IMO the rest of us should keep reminding them so, so that the 'norm' becomes something decent for all.
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I'm pretty solidly Labour but I've no time at all for DA. She just seems to have a gift for perverting common sense and talking twaddle.
There's a differnce though between minorities speaking out and those in the majority.
What she's said, using the word White for the majority population is probably correct. Seeking to divide those who form alliances against you is after all pretty standard politics.
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This is going to prove very near the mark, but its factual.
She feels a constant need to assert she is not an Uncle Tom N. Alas its uncomfortably close to the truth.
Sad really because at a local level she achieved much, pushing the concept that any racial group can advance through education of their own and others children. But now with stars in her eyes she has been "corrupted"
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 5 Jan 12 at 19:16
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If you want to drive politically/economically disaffected white people to the Far Right, telling them that they dont have any right to live without racial discrimination, but every other ethnic group does, is surely going to aid that. Its ranking one race below all others. Its not smart in the slightest.
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A slightly more humorous view (Daily Mash, contains some rude words):
tinyurl.com/6sgacb5
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I suspect that certain minorities may be relaxed about racism. They perceive that it's only ango-saxons that are likely to be challenged, whereas they are somehow above criticism. Hence the opening of mouth before brain engaged in DA's case.
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Maybe something in that Nortones.
The only incident I can recall at work in recent years involved a person of Caribbean heritage with an 'attitude' to West Africans.
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I recall something like that among Bajians I worked with: caste issues perhaps. In Malaya (as was) the Chinese and Malays fought violently in "race riots", and this wasn't (SFAIK) anything to do with the CT's. Armed guard on our school bus at times of tension.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Thu 5 Jan 12 at 22:03
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>> I suspect that certain minorities may be relaxed about racism. They perceive that it's only
>> ango-saxons that are likely to be challenged, whereas they are somehow above criticism.
Their perception is generally correct.
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>> (Daily Mash, contains some rude words):
Excellent Focus. The Daily Mash never fails to make me giggle. I like its forthright prose style too. An example to the blathering tabloids.
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>> 'If Diane Abbott was a police officer she would be sacked'.
Is this a statement of the bleeding obvious? Police officers are paid by the state to suppress crime and catch criminals, not make public statements on abstract issues that get everyone's knickers in an inexplicable twist.
'If Inspector Knacker was a shadow minister, he would find himself on the back benches pretty sharpish'.
Discusss.
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I'm not a particular fan of Diane Abbott, but I am far much disgusted by the reaction to her off the cuff remark than the comment itself.
For as long as politicians can expect this sort of reaction to anything but the most predictable and anodyne utterances, none of them can afford to say what they really think if they seek higher office.
I much prefer Abbott's unguarded style to her leader's.
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>> For as long as politicians can expect this sort of reaction to anything but the
>> most predictable and anodyne utterances, none of them can afford to say what they really
>> think if they seek higher office.
If Abbott let on she hates Whities, she wouldn't get higher office.
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My belief is she's gone too far now - her utterances will forever follow her not so much a tweet but a full blown Albatross. Elected beyond her ability. Don't know her educational background but lacks the political awareness that she needs to do her job effectively. Too arrogant to quit. If a cop had said that they'd have been shot at dawn.
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As a wise man once said:
"She isn't the most gifted politician in the world: In fact she isnt even the most gifted politician in her toilet when she's in there taking a dump."
Apologies for toilet humour but that's a better tweet than hers was.
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Don't think it will particularly harm Diane Abbott but it has the potential to harm her leader who is already seen as weak and unable to exert effective control. Another nail in his coffin I'm afraid. Expect a leadership bid in late summer.
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>> My belief is she's gone too far now - ... lacks the political awareness that she needs to do
>>her job effectively. Too arrogant to quit. If a cop had said that they'd have been
>> shot at dawn.
Not her finest hour, I'll grant. And people who set themselves up as politicians should have above average judgement. But in the full spectrum of human behaviours, a tendency to foot in mouth hardly signifies at all to me.
Her biggest error of judgement was possibly to make Jonathan Aitken her son's godfather.
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>>If Abbott let on she hates Whities, she wouldn't get higher office.
I didn't infer from her remark that she does.
I think everybody is racist, more or less, and certainly quite a few other ists in my case. You can't entirely help what you think. It's not what you think, it's what you say and do that matters.
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>>I'm not a particular fan of Diane Abbott, but I am far much disgusted by the reaction to her off the cuff remark than the comment itself.<<
Im disgusted that everytime someone says something an ethnic minority can find a route by which they are offended, all us white folk have to be extra careful that we dont go offending anybody. As such, its about time the same applied in the other direction.
Im not one for jumping through hoops, but if I have to, everyone else can to.
Universal rules, stupid rules, but equal.
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Darcus Howe on Newsnight went as always slightly over the top in her defence, but he was right of course. The other guy was a sniveller.
As are all of you except Manatee. I'm ashamed of you.
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>> I'm ashamed of you.
Let me expand on that.
'stupid tart'
'big gob'
'in the toilet taking a dump'
In the heat of the moment it may be thought that these hostile and disrespectful phrases are directed against a politician, and justified on that basis.
But they sound to me like racist attacks on a black woman who is a Labour Minister.
What's more, I agree with what she said, in its context. Divide and rule is a principle expounded by Machiavelli (a white person) in The Prince, and anyone who has looked at any politics at all, let alone imperial and colonial politics, is well acquainted with many examples of it in practice. Generally put to work by, er, white people.
Honestly chaps. Go home and sober up. And apologise as Diane Abbott had to. Or admit you're nasty idiots doing a lynching.
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Articles by Bim, who started the furore:
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/05/diane-abbott-twitter-row-racism
""I do wish everyone would stop saying 'the black community' though." I expanded in a followup: "Clarifying my 'black community' tweet: I hate the generally lazy thinking behind the use of the term. Same for 'black community leaders'. This led to a reply from my local MP Diane Abbott, in which she said: "I understand the cultural point you are making. But you are playing into a "divide and rule" agenda.""
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/04/racism-skin-colour-shades-prejudice
twitter.com/bimadew
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Selective view of the age-old method of "divide and rule" to maintain a flimsy thesis that such a method was unique to recent history, and especially to the Empire(s) of the west Just an example, from the Islamic Empire "It was the policy of the early caliph to disturb the conquered as little as possible, so long as they paid their taxes. There was no interest in converting the conquered to Islam. In the interest of order they left the social and religious order of the conquered in tact -- social order and religious authority having some connection. But also there were the old landowners, chiefs and headmen, and the conquering Muslims left them with their authority in the villages, subservient, of course, to the conquerors -- a method of imperial administrations that was ages old." The date? I'll let you guess AC. The source: www.fsmitha.com/h3/h08is.htm
I'l admit I don't know the reliability of the source, but to imagine that Machiavelli was the instigator of "divide and rule" is improbable, as is the attribution to recent western Imperialism, in the context of Imperialism across time and race. You'd imagine a former minister would take the trouble to self-educate before spouting palpable nonsense.
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>> to imagine that Machiavelli was the instigator of "divide and rule" is improbable, as is the attribution to recent western Imperialism, in the context of Imperialism across time and race. You'd imagine a former minister would take the trouble to self-educate before spouting palpable nonsense.
Oh for heaven's sake NortonES... I said Machiavelli recommended it, not that he invented it. And the Muslims in eighth century Spain didn't invent it either. It's obvious as a technique to small children, as observation of their social relationships will quickly tell you.
Nor did I say that only white imperialists had used it. But the briefest of glances at the political map of Africa and the ethnic map will show that almost the entire continent, with the exception of Somalia oddly enough, is set up (not deliberately probably, but anyway) to ensure divisions and rivalries between large groups in all the 'countries' designated on the map.
Diane Abbott was a bit slapdash. I have a feeling all tweeters are, except the Queen of course. But what she said wasn't insulting or racist or even worth paying any attention to. There's something distasteful about the overreaction to it.
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Diane Abbott was a bit slapdash. I have a feeling all tweeters are, except the Queen of course. But what she said wasn't insulting or racist or even worth paying any attention to. There's something distasteful about the overreaction to it.
She's a Professional politician. She's been one for at least 15 years. She is neither young nor naive. So she must - repeat MUST - know the need for care on what you say and write.
Period.
She refused to apologise for it.
So she obviously deliberately said what she did and thought no more of it. Despite it being obvious if roles were reversed she , herself, would have been grossly offended.
Apologists should give up now. .She really has done her best to mishandle it at all levels. A sensible politician making that mistake would have unreservedly apologised.
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You said "Generally put to work by white people" which is as you may well know, is palpably untrue. If you had said "put to work by white people when they were in an THEIR empire building stage" it would be more historically correct. An even more pertinent qualification would be that all military and other power seekers are likely to use such methods. DA was more than slapdash - she is perpetuating a myth that only white people are devious enough to set out to maintain power in this way.
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>> >> I'm ashamed of you.
>>
>> Let me expand on that.
>>
>> 'stupid tart'
>
One of Her primary goal, and roles in her current job is sound bites. You may not like it, or approve of it, but its what colours public opinion and subsequently gets one elected or sustains position. One needs to be ultra media aware and savvy
She has spectacularly failed, and in an area in which she has made her mark, name and ticket, - Race.
Now OK you could say - Oppsss Mistake Never mind she will learn.
Except its her THIRD serious gobbing off. Now in my book once is an accident, twice raises questions, three times equals stupid tart.
>> Honestly chaps. Go home and sober up. And apologise as Diane Abbott had to. Or
>> admit you're nasty idiots doing a lynching.
Apologise for what? For expressing an opinion about someones ability to do a job? When they have proven inept at it?
Really AC, you live in a twilight world, where you have never had to do any real work, or consistently perform at a high level, please do come and join us in the 21st century old boy, before the living world passes you by.
>>
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>> Now in my book once is an accident, twice raises questions, three times equals stupid tart.
As I said, she's a bit clumsy sometimes. She's not my hero. But what she said, in less than 48 words', was unexceptionable, wasn't racist and wasn't in my opinion worth commenting on.
The response, here and elsewhere, does seem to me to be worth commenting on. The burden of everyone's, or almost everyone's, message is that this stupid jumped up uppity black tart has ruffled our dignity as white people. Some including you have suggested that it is liable to drive people into the arms of the racist extreme right 'parties' in all their menacing might.
Some of you talk as if you were in their arms already.
>> you live in a twilight world, where you have never had to do any real work, or consistently perform at a high level, please do come and join us in the 21st century old boy, before the living world passes you by.
You forgot to call me a Guardianista Zeddo. Never mind, your best mate Iffy did it for you.
Enormous, juicy raspberry.
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>> As I said, she's a bit clumsy sometimes. She's not my hero. But what she
>> said, in less than 48 words', was unexceptionable, wasn't racist and wasn't in my opinion
>> worth commenting on.
AC,
If I stated publicly that "all black people are....(insert something negative)....", then i'd be racist...for lumping all people together just because of their skin colour. That would be wrong, wouldn't it? ... because all people are not the same just because of their skin colour.
So why is it any different when a black lady says it of white people?
What's worse for me, is she's an MP and senior politician. As I understand it, when she gets elected to a constituency, she's supposed to represent all of them, not disrespect a great chunk of them, lump them altogether in a great big sweeping statement that is inaccurate... and feel that she is empowered to do so. Wrong, wrong, wrong on all fronts.
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>> So why is it any different when a black lady says it of white people?
In a perfect world, Westpig, it wouldn't be any different. But the world and the country we live in are imperfect. I think it is incumbent on the native British to try to understand how privileged they are, and how unexpectedly harsh this country can seem to people not born here. They often need a helping hand, even the silly immoral individuals who try to exploit this sort of thing to their own advantage. As with drink driving for example, or exceeding speed limits, one size doesn't fit all.
As we all know, a lot of native British feel and are very underprivileged. They are not the victims of foreign immigrants though but of the country's class system. So of course are exploited and underprivileged immigrants and their children. But in their case there is the added dimension of 'perceived racial status'. This is far more unpleasant for them, the constant drip drip of it, than most of us can easily appreciate.
Perhaps I am not being all that clear. But I think that is why there's a difference between Diane Abbot saying what she said and one of us making a similar clumsy generalisation. I know, I know, Ms Abbott is privileged herself and quite rich. But to give the devil her due she tries to represent what she sees as her emotional constituency. And I'm sure as an MP she doesn't wholly neglect her other constituents. She didn't mean all this to happen. I feel a bit sorry for her although she has to be a pretty tough cookie.
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But in their case there
>> is the added dimension of 'perceived racial status'. This is far more unpleasant for them,
>> the constant drip drip of it, than most of us can easily appreciate.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, i've discussed that previously with people who'd know... ...but.... I think that sort of thing is perpetuated i.e. people do feel second class citizens, if some of their number act like clown's and go out of their way to annoy everyone else.. or get away with things because they can..or do whatever they like thinking they've got a 'get out of jail free card'. How sad for those that don't act like that, yet get lumped together by society.
Black kids walk down the street calling each other the 'n' word. White kids aren't allowed to. How about no one should do it. If it's an offensive word, then it's an offensive word, full stop?
>>
>> Perhaps I am not being all that clear. But I think that is why there's
>> a difference between Diane Abbot saying what she said and one of us making a
>> similar clumsy generalisation.
I see no difference whatosever. There should be none. She should have enough sense to realise this and try her best to integrate all and improve the lot of those truly trodden on, not wind up a generally peaceful majority, that might tip some into thinking 'they're all the same'.... in the same fashion she did.
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>> except Manatee.
And Bromptonaut.
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>>But they sound to me like racist attacks on a black woman who is a Labour Minister.
Go on, AC, I double-dare you to find any racism in what I said.
It was puerile humour, yes, but making a point about someone's ability (or lack thereof) to make a calculated remark on a universal forum.
(It's actually a paraphrase of John Lennon after being asked if Ringo Starr was the best drummer in the world.... "Ringo's not even the best drummer in the Beatles")
She is also not a Labour Minister - Labour aren't currently in power last time I looked.
Divide and rule has hee-haw to do with 'Whitey' in power - have a look at every country in the world with a "ruling elite".
Let's start with Africa or the Middle East or Asia for example.
Idiot indeed.
Takes one to know one, nyah nyah na nya nyah.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 00:27
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>> Divide and rule has hee-haw to do with 'Whitey' in power
any politics at all, I said. I think that covers it more or less.
None of the phrases I quoted was specifically racist. But in the context, their extreme rudeness had a racist and in fact sexist implication in my opinion. Darcus Howe is also much disliked and subjected to similar accusations of hypocrisy, crap-stirring and so on. For much the same reason I think that people seem to dislike Diane Abbott. They are what US racists call 'uppity'. Some of my best friends are and were uppity blacks. I quite like them like that. They can be a bit tiring, but at least they try.
As I said at the top here, this is a storm in a teacup that has overflowed, in an exact parallel, more or less, to the Clarkson lynching. Hostility to Clarkson though was because he is considered right-wing and boorish, rather than black, left-of-centre and boorish.
I suppose it can be said in everyone's favour that this lashing out in both directions means we British are more or less in the centre, and don't go for the extremes. Apart of course from threatening to rally massively to fascism when a black woman makes a perfectly harmless remark, as some here seem to think we do.
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"White people love playing divide and rule."
Just look at the statement, and the context it is played out in.
"Ethnic communities that show more public solidarity & unity than black people do much better"
From further down the exchange.
Them'n'us mentality to the max.
White vs black vs (other ethnic groups)
Couldn't be more covertly racist if she tried.
Switch white for black and it looks like a BNP utterance.
Intelligence and idiocy are not mutually exclusive as La Abbott demonstrates nicely.
Her subsequent 'apology' is for 'any offence caused', not her stupid statement.
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The pro-black Guardianistas need to be wary of a backlash.
In general, the white community in this country has taken being labelled time and time again as racists very well.
But some - me, for example - are getting fed up of attempts by the likes of Abbott to realign my moral compass.
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>> The pro-black Guardianistas need to be wary of a backlash.
>>
>> In general, the white community in this country has taken being labelled time and time
>> again as racists very well.
>>
>> But some - me, for example - are getting fed up of attempts by the
>> likes of Abbott to realign my moral compass.
>>
+1
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>> The pro-black Guardianistas need to be wary of a backlash.
I've nor bothered to 'gong' it but the term 'pro-black Guardianistas' verges on the offensive.
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>> >> Hostility to
>> Clarkson though was because he is considered right-wing and boorish, rather than black, left-of-centre and
>> boorish.
>>
But also, sometimes, quite funny. Do you chuckle, furtively, at DA's outbursts, and then feel abashed because you remember you are not meant to like non-PC stuff like that?
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Context, as Iffy in particular should know, is everything. Here's an account from her fellow tweeter of how it came about; a discussion between two black people with different takes on the term 'black community'.
www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/05/diane-abbott-twitter-row-racism
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 09:36
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>> Context, as Iffy in particular should know, is everything. Here's an account from her fellow
>> tweeter of how it came about; a discussion between two black people with different takes
>> on the term 'black community'.
>>
>> www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/05/diane-abbott-twitter-row-racism
Too late to edit but I see John H has already posted the Guardian link.
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I think what has angered me the more I thought about it is this woman making any presumption on the basis of my skin colour, something that she says she is against.
She is as narrow minded as any BNP member. Why? Because everytime she jets off to Jamaica to get in touch with her roots ( she mentioned this many times on This Week ), those ancestors who were so oppressed, those in slavery, well they were mine too Diane dearest.
I bet she doesnt look at me with my 'white' skin and think we have shared roots, but we do.
My grandmother was a mixed race Jewish woman who when she died owned shops and properties in both Londan and Kingston, Jamaica ( hows that for upward social mobility ). Her mother was a freed slave who married a Sephardic Jew ( who had their own problems ) - I know where she is buried and I even have a picture of her gravestone and I am in contact with my Jamaican descendants from Australia to South America.
So when she looks at me and sees a white man, she is making the same bigoted assumptions about where I come from as Nick Griffin does. Factor in the Irish, Scottish, German and Romany and im rather struggling to be English at all, but then I am because being such a heady mix of all these things is the very essence of a country that was multicultural long before she graced us with her 'ideas'.
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>> I'm ashamed of you.
Let me expand on that.
'stupid tart'
'big gob'
'in the toilet taking a dump'
In the heat of the moment it may be thought that these hostile and disrespectful phrases are directed against a politician, and justified on that basis.
But they sound to me like racist attacks on a black woman who is a Labour Minister.
And the above sums up one of the biggest issues here - there is nothing whatsoever race related in those quotes above but because the lady is black, it has been assumed that race must come into it? Absolutely codswollop.
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I go back to what I said in the Sepp Blatter thread, racism to me is discriminating because of the colour of the skin ie you are not getting the job because you are black.
If you work in a (football) environment where on the field of play your opponent can
elbow you
kick you
try and cheat you and get you booked / sent off
can call you fat / tall / ginger
can say that your partner / wife / mother will take it up the whatever
and you accept this is just part and parcel of the game then if you are also called a black / fat / etc then it is not racism, it is just another slagging / wind up.
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>>and you accept this is just part and parcel of the game then if you are also called a black / fat / etc then it is not racism, it is just another slagging / wind up.
I see where you are coming from Bobby, but I don't think it's that simple - setting aside the fact that any of the behaviours you liken it to should get you sent off anyway.
There's a lot of PC rot talked about racism of course, but there were some very good reasons for the introduction of the race relations legislation. There was (and is) a lot of proper, nasty race hate and race-related injustice out there. It needs no reinforcement from people who are, whether they like it or not, role models for a lot of impressionable, under educated people who may already have unpleasant attitudes that don't need further cultivating.
About 30 years ago I worked out of an office somewhere in Yorkshire. There was a vacancy for a clerk, and the office manager interviewed 3 young females for the job. It was obvious to others who were introduced to them which was head and shoulders above the other two. She didn't get the job. The office manager wrote on her application "unsuitable - coloured". She was quite obviously of black Carribean parentage. Taken to task, he was unrepentant - as far as he was concerned, "they" were all lazy, had some very strange habits, were likely to bring smelly food in the office and fall asleep during Ramadan. Up to this point he had always seemed a perfectly nice chap.
Of course compared to David Norris and Gary Horton, he was a nice chap. But if there hadn't been so many people with his type of blind and vicious prejudice around when they were growing up, perhaps the Norrises and Hortons would have turned out differently.
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>> Factor in the Irish, Scottish, German and Romany and im rather struggling to be English at all, but then I am because being such a heady mix of all these things is the very essence of a country that was multicultural long before she graced us with her 'ideas'.
Your take on this is a lot more interesting than most people's, Stu. For what it's worth it seems to me less deplorable too.
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I think while her public persona is very affable, I think she still harbours an instinctual suspicion about 'white' people, which occasionally breaks loose when she isnt thinking, which is probobly a sign of her generation, whereas my generation, by and large, dont really 'see' skin colour. Shes a bit of a relic and relics get put in museums, not positions of influence.
I dont like the terms 'white/black', I think they are way too simplistic and dont in anyway represent the diversity of ethnicity that skin colour alone cannot represent. This kind of blanket grouping of people by skin colour is just pathetic in 2012, we know better and Diane Abbott should too.
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@ BobbyG
>>and you accept this is just part and parcel of the game then if you are also called a black / fat / etc then it is not racism, it is just another slagging / wind up. >>
No it is not. The big difference is that as soon as you start using verbal abuse based on race (and other proscribed categories), you are breaking the LAW.
@ FoR
>> I dont like the terms 'white/black', I think they are way too simplistic and dont in anyway represent the diversity of ethnicity that skin colour alone cannot represent. This kind of blanket grouping of people by skin colour is just pathetic in 2012, we know better and Diane Abbott should too. >>
So far I had avoided commenting so as not to be snared by your bait and hook used in starting this thread. Diane Abbot reacted to a (Nigerian?) woman who seemed to object to being lumped in with the term "black community", presumable because she wanted to be identified by her particular black group (Nigerian?). Diane Abbot responded to her that by sub-dividing the "black community" in that way would be to divide and rule. Her mistake was to imply that this divide and rule tactic was one used by ALL white people, but if she had substituted the words "some people" in place of "white" in her tweet, there would have been no furore.
Such generalisations are often used by journalists. Search the internet for "young white girls exploited by Asian men for sex" and you will see what I mean.
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>>So far I had avoided commenting so as not to be snared by your bait and hook used in starting this thread<<
I wasnt fishing, dont be so cynical - ive said before now that I had a soft spot for Abbott, I was initially more interested in the Ed Milliband angle given his troubles, but I suppose it would only go one way.
>>Such generalisations are often used by journalists<<
I agree with Bim on her point. Diane Abbott is not a journo either.
I also strongly disagree that there is much in the way of divide&rule going on for the purpose of weakening any one ethnic group in society, ive heard Nick Griffin say something similar about Islamists. Its paranoid nonsense from both of them.
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D Abbott is worth her weight in gold.
to the Tories.
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The tone of this thread has once or twice verged on the disagreeable, as playground scraps can. Fortunately no weak sister has retired bruised and wailing. But I must I suppose accept a measure of responsibility for some of the grittiness.
Once again the terrorflag, the Guardianistas' standby, has two comments worth seeing. The best one is from the wonderful Matt on the front page, straight to the point as nearly always. Please please, Zeddo or someone, post the link for those who don't read it. I am too old and stupid to know how.
The other is the comment piece by Fraser Nelson (who he?) on p. 22, saying poverty not race is 'the real dividing line in modern Britain'. He's a bit over-smug about the decline of overt racism here, but his main point is very sound.
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Thanks Zero. You're a Mensch.
Not keen on the Garry Baker though. I don't think Diane Abbott deserves the implicit accusation that she is jumping on the Stephen Lawrence bandwagon and attracting the limelight to herself. I don't believe she expected the reaction the tweet got.
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Nelson sounds as smug as young Conservative can muster, but he usually makes well-reasoned points.
I often think he was separated at birth from Douglas Murray.
The most interesting bit of comment I read was from Bim herself, in the Guardian I believe.
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I really can't be bothered with all this. I always worked in an environment which is utterly multi-cultural, multi-racial and with individuals of all sexual persuasions and reproductive plumbing arrangements.
Ultimately, there are good people and bad people at each end of the scale with most fitting in somewhere in between.
"Isms" and "ists" don't really come into it.
Except bad shoe wearers of course.
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>>Except bad shoe wearers of course.
Humph, I bought new shoes yesterday! In Clarkes sale. Not as comfy as my Hush Puppies, don't think I will get 3 years out of this pair....
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...Context, as Iffy in particular should know...
Abbott's context defence is weak to the point of irrelevant.
It matters not to whom she was speaking, and the remark stands on its own as a comment on white people.
The content of the comment doesn't bother me, although I think it's stupid.
It tells us a great deal about Ms Abbott, but very little about white people.
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>> Abbott's context defence is weak to the point of irrelevant.
>> It matters not to whom she was speaking, and the remark stands on its own as a comment on white people.
>> The content of the comment doesn't bother me, although I think it's stupid.
>> It tells us a great deal about Ms Abbott, but very little about white people.
Four lines of total crap Iffy. Three of the statements are wrong or untrue, the other is vacuous. Shape up man. I blame too many pies.
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...Four lines of total crap Iffy...
Just your opinion, of which we've seen many more than four lines in this thread.
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It is my opinion that the mass immigration of people from the West Indies, Africa and the Indian Sub-Continent has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster for Great Britain.
It has brought disharmony, alien cultures with vastly differing values, and made huge areas of our towns an cities "no-go" areas for the native population.
I can think of no positive benefits whatsoever.
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its brought 60 years of unprecedented growth, prosperity and an increase in YOUR standard of living.
Funny how the Spanish let you live there wasnt it.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 18:55
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...its brought 60 years of unprecedented growth, prosperity...
It's not possible to put '60 years of unprecedented growth, prosperity' down to any one factor.
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indeed, you cant disprove it hasn't been a factor either. All you can go by is what has happened, and rational people will take into account immigration must have been a factor rather than a hindrance.
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Rational people can also take into account that it has been a disaster.
You only have one definition of rational - that which agrees with you.
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Except it hasnt
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Jan 12 at 19:07
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Because as I said, we have enjoyed an unprecedented economic boom. How is that a disaster?
Your living standards are unrecognisable to those of yours who came before.
How is that a disaster?
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..............which has nothing to do with untrammelled immigration by alien cultures.
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Has the space ship arrived? Has Will Smith saved the day yet? :-p
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>> ..............which has nothing to do with untrammelled immigration by alien cultures.
Which of the numerous cultures in my office are alien? They watch the same TV as I do and have kids at the same key stages in their lives as mine. Their accounts suggest girls from Caribbean & African backgrounds seem to work of their own accord while boys need their noses pressing to the grindstone.
Whereas in the 'indigenous culture.............
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...and of course, the true answer will be that there will have been pluses and minuses
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No, what it actually brought was a flow of cheap labour which prevented a proper wage being paid to the existing inhabitants.
The Spanish had no choice - the EU & all that. Besides we, as retired expats, took no jobs from the Spanish and our pensions were inflows into the Spanish economy.
I can tell you there are no more racist people than the Spanish, having heard their comments each time a boatload of Sub-Saharan illegals foundered, depositing corpses on the Spanish beaches.
Now that the cash cow of Northern European expat money has all but stopped I can testify that anti foreigner sentiment is increasing.
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>> No, what it actually brought was a flow of cheap labour which prevented a proper
>> wage being paid to the existing inhabitants.
You are wrong. There has been a massive increase in wages at all levels, in those years you cant deny it. They only took jobs that lazy home grown gits would not do.
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>> There has been a massive increase in wages at all levels, in
>> those years you cant deny it. >>
There's no point having wages too high...products become too expensive and we can't sell them abroad to balance the books
>> They only took jobs that lazy home grown gits would not do.
Like now, with most of Eastern Europe doing our tradesmen's jobs...whilst vast armies of our own homegrown 'talent' wallow on the dole.
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>> Like now, with most of Eastern Europe doing our tradesmen's jobs...whilst vast armies of our
>> own homegrown 'talent' wallow on the dole.
You tried getting a builder? A plumber?
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You cant blame the immigrants, this is the land of gold. and jewels, look at some of the places they are coming from.
Blame the people who manage the numbers and the services.
My sister is white, British and has money, yet she had to jump through numerous hoops just to be allowed into what used to be our prison colony.
Shes still not a citizen and the aussies have no issue telling her she has a funny accent ( she does, its sort of southern england with an aussie finish ). She isnt offended though and she is embracing aussie culture, so far as culture goes in australia ( not very far tbh ).
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>> I can testify that anti foreigner sentiment is increasing.
Yes, the Spanish have quite a democratic side. One can quite see that having 'no choice - the EU and all that' wouldn't really appeal to them. Imagine the sort of foreigners they have to put up with!
Come to think of it, you don't have to imagine. When you have been there long enough they will be praying for a few boatloads of 'sub-Saharan illegals' to make the place too uncomfortable for smug English ponces. I would if I were them.
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>> It is my opinion that the mass immigration of people from the West Indies, Africa
>> and the Indian Sub-Continent has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster for Great Britain.
>> It has brought disharmony, alien cultures with vastly differing values, and made huge areas of
>> our towns an cities "no-go" areas for the native population.
>> I can think of no positive benefits whatsoever.
This thread has taken a deeply distasteful turn, so I shall no longer be engaged in it.
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www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24025904-cabbies-slam-abbott-for-claiming-they-drive-past-black-customers.do
Umm, seriously? Ive no idea if London cabbies do this, but seems a bit soon for another dubious sweeping generalisation.
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>> www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24025904-cabbies-slam-abbott-for-claiming-they-drive-past-black-customers.do
>>
>> Umm, seriously? Ive no idea if London cabbies do this, but seems a bit soon
>> for another dubious sweeping generalisation.
I'm assuming this is the same article I read on the way home.
Anecdotal accounts from colleagues suggest I might find a cab easier than a black bloke. But maybe it' just that he wants to so S of the river.
As for the LTDA guy's assertion that cabbies reflect London's racial mix he's having a g-raffe. I'm eyeball > eyeball with London cabbies whenever I ride in London. Next to no blacks and very very few women
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...As for the LTDA guy's assertion...
I like his quote: "I had Ms Abbott in the back of the cab once."
Classic London cabbie.
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I've no time for Diane Abbot, but to quote from the article, "Scotland Yard are looking into allegations of racism following her tweet".
For God's sake, isn't there enough real crime out there that they shouldn't waste resourses on a nothing remark that will be fogotten this time next week? No one was harmed, no one really gives a flying whatsit, GET A LIFE.
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>> I've no time for Diane Abbot, but to quote from the article, "Scotland Yard are
>> looking into allegations of racism following her tweet".
>>
>> For God's sake, isn't there enough real crime out there that they shouldn't waste resourses
>> on a nothing remark that will be fogotten this time next week? No one was
>> harmed, no one really gives a flying whatsit, GET A LIFE.
We have, quite rightly, laws proscribing racism. Opportunists will try and exploit them for their own ends. Cases that are at best marginal also get reported.
I don't think many minutes will be devoted to chicking them out. Just tick the boxes.
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Has the CRE said something ? They've usually got something to say in circumstances like this...
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It occurs to me, maybe its a wild idea, but is this the 2012 taint Labour campaign so a new leader can rise like a pheonix and sweep out the deadwood, a sort of rebirth - maybe Diane wants to return to the backbenches and shes daring Ed to pull the trigger, causing a storm on the way out. Sacking her would look bad for Ed no matter how it happens or why.
I ask because Glasman and Murphy have also taken shots at Ed in the last few days and theres a nag in the back of my mind which wonders why all at once, timing is crucial in politics.
Might be wrong but it feels like it?
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I don't quite get the furore over this, its become established practice for those of a leftist persuasion to be allowed to say anything they like so long as they are reading from the correct hymn sheet, doesn't matter if they can afford to bath in champers, they still fall under the downtrodden underprivelidged umbrella.
The liberal lefties are now the playground bullies they claim to despise, they can hurl insults and pinch the victim, but wo betide the victim should it retaliate..the cry can be heard throughout the country, '...ist'....could be race, or sex or homophobia or any other mantra so long as that drum is beat...its all getting a bit old hat now, even those who have made careers from it must be able to see that few are now able to stifle the sniggers as they fire up the cliche machine.
DA is past it, she's living 10 years ago and the world has moved on, no one should take anything she says seriously, she's elected because of who she is, not because the electorate in her constituency have thought seriously about their representative.
She's an anti hero, by constantly referring to white versus black she's effectively saying that ethnic minorities can't make it unless this or that is or isn't done for them, i'm only surprised that her supporters still fall for it, unless she has a strong band of apparatchiks making sure of their positions, which means keeping the figurehead in place and the lucrative salaries rolling in.
If i was a hard working black person living in her constituency i'd be damned if i'd want her representing me, taking away my pride in my achievements due to my own hard graft, somehow diminishing it by her ill thought out remarks.
As for divide and rule, its what clever leaders do in every country, indeed in every sphere of life, you give some of your enemies (the proletariat) unfair advantage or privelidges, few humans can resist taking and the ones who don't get it then hate those who have, and on it goes, there are many variations to the theme.
By the way, some of you seem to know BNP or NF members quite intimitely judging by the frequent referrals, must be some interesting discussions round the dinner table at your gaffs.
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+1
The most erudite post in this whole sorry thread.
GB - You are a Gentleman and a scholar.
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I can't inmagine you dislike people because of their colour Roger.
But you are entitled to your opinion.
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Good God, you go away for dinner and the carphounds have swarmed out of the woodwork and are yawping away as if you had never existed, putting the world to rights with crude generalizations like smartypants thirteen-year-olds. Telling us that Labour front bench spokesfolk haven't a clue about the modern world and don't know what they're talking about on 'race' or anything else. Whining that they feel bullied by left liberals. Well, if they weren't so damn wet they wouldn't feel bullied. They would be able to say things clearly without whinging.
Seems to me that few here have the slightest idea what a 'leftist' really is. If they met a real one they would be mincemeat in seconds and creep away licking their wounds. Because serious left-wing people are just that, serious. They actually know things and can argue properly.
They don't fantasize their imagined adversaries as soppy privileged Guardian-reading liberals, or soppy crooked bankers. They don't sound off about stuff they can't really grasp. They have clear ideas about what they are aiming for and those ideas are based on actual knowledge and understanding.
I'm not a leftist and neither is Diane Abbott. But I certainly know what the term means and I'd bet plenty that she does too. Many people here are simply childish - some cleverer or nicer than others, but really just children.
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>> I can't inmagine you dislike people because of their colour Roger.
Why not Dutchie? He's made it crystal clear that he does.
What you mean is that you don't understand it. That's because you're decent and humane and have been around, up, down and sideways, and come to the right conclusions about humans and their variety. Life has knocked the corners off you and you haven't been afraid to change your views and become mature.
Alas, not everyone is like that.
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Alas also that when I originally posted about it, I sought to examine the issues for Ed Milliband from a political standpoint, it interested me - I dont think a single person made comment on it and while predictable that some people, who's views are hardly unknown on such things went down the race issue route, even those who stand aghast on such issues only wanted the thread to go one direction. More similar than you know.
I find Ed's leadership a very interesting story, maybe he hasnt inspired the same interest in other people!
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...I find Ed's leadership a very interesting story, maybe he hasnt inspired the same interest in other people!...
You could start a dedicated thread and await the avalanche of replies.
There's rarely much interest in the leader of a party which is not in power.
Having said that, there's always some interest in the Labour leadership in the North East because it's such a staunch Labour area.
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I kinda did, we are on it. Problem is, Diane Abbott making a gaffe has far more easy pickings I guess, but it was an excellent context in which to look at Labour's 2012 start, which reflects on Ed as leader - it aint going well and the tricky situation with Diane would be an unusual test for any left-wing leader.
I actually think he has struck the right note on it. What he does about the taxi driver story, not sure, but I expect he will do something because anything which alienates those kind of core Labour working class voters aint good press.
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We can deduce that Diane's slip rattled Ed from his tweet on Bob Holness -
""Sad to hear that Bob Holness has died. A generation will remember him fondly from Blackbusters."
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>> We can deduce that Diane's slip rattled Ed from his tweet on Bob Holness -
>>
>>
>> ""Sad to hear that Bob Holness has died. A generation will remember him fondly from
>> Blackbusters."
The name’s Bond, Ed Milibond.
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An Abbott a day keeps Labour away? - Zero
