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twmercer tweets about iceland.......: Honestly. If you can't look after your volcano you shouldn't be allowed to keep one.
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Sobering post on the excellent pprune.org forum - the last time this particular volcano went off, well before the age of powered flight, it kept going for two years.
That could give BA more of a problem that a few unruly cabin crew.
goo.gl/sTAY
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Its really strange, Just driven North west to south east along the major routes of england.
To see the motorway signs saying
East midlands Aiport - Closed
then Stanstead Airport -closed
Heathrow airport - closed
Gatwick Closed.
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It's OK; the Icelanders have got it sussed...
...they're going to chuck Susan Boyle into it.
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That is soooooooooo cruel...
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>> Heathrow airport - closed
...which is where we should have been flying to today after 2 weeks in the States! Could you let us know when it reopens? :-)
F
(currently stuck in San Francisco)
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NATS state it wont be open untill at least 06:00 tomorrow, when further met office reviews and forcasts will be considered.
manchester was open briefly, as was glasgow, but then shut.
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I wonder if a certain mod of this parish is getting an extended honeymoon?
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I have to go to Italy next week. Already booked a "Murphy" airlines ticket but might have to drive. Getting too old for that malarky but if needs must.......
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A long drive - but at least the miles won't be on your car.
I would think/hope it opens at the weekend. The last time this volcano erupted it did not disrupt things as much - but that was in 1821. It continued for about 2 weeks - I hope not. We fly out of Manchester in two weeks.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 16 Apr 10 at 17:40
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>> I would think/hope it opens at the weekend. The last time this volcano erupted it
>> did not disrupt things as much - but that was in 1821. It continued for
>> about 2 weeks - I hope not. We fly out of Manchester in two weeks.
2 years - goo.gl/qhKS
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You will be ok if they pay up the ransom demand.
www.npoc.co.uk/forum/big-cloud-alert_topic38727_page3.htm
Happy Motoring Phil I
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>> 2 years...
Wishful thinking on my part or misreading then. Lets hope it does not cause problems for 2 years!
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>>2 years - goo.gl/qhKS
>>
The report I read said the volcano was active on and off for 14 months
IIRC started Dec and ended in Jan thus reported as two years.
Still not good news.
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Yes an extended honeymoon it is - just extended my hire of
the Mustang and eaten rather well courtesy of Mr Branson.
Virgin have been excellent including a free entry day at Busch
Gardens 150 dollars !
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Lucky old you!
One of the company's of him with the toothy grin is causing me no end of trouble. It looks like the next stop's with the relevant ombudsman.
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Focus, sorry to hear that but there's worse places to be stuck. Is Crazy Shirts still in existence? Great T shirts.
JH
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Focus, you had any news on when you might be able to get back? I've finally spoken to my airline (AF) and they have me booked for Weds afternoon, although they are stressing that they have no idea if they will be able to fly by then.
Shame you're on the other side of the country, I'm in NY, we could have had a beer.
SO
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Thanks for the sympathy - it's hell out here in the sunshine sitting by the pool :-)
Virgin Holidays have booked us in for another 2 nights at the hotel (Holiday Inn Fisherman's Wharf), although no news on when we'll be leaving. I spoke to a chap with another holiday company who should have flown back yesterday, and he's been told he'll be flying back on Tuesday...
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Going to the LA in April Focusless - we find ourselves booked into the Fisherman's Wharf Hilton for a couple of nights - any tips ?
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>> Going to the LA in April Focusless - we find ourselves booked into the Fisherman's
>> Wharf Hilton for a couple of nights - any tips ?
>>
Car parking can be expensive.
It may be cheaper (if the Dollar all-inclusive one-day one-way rates still apply) to pick up the car at the airport and drop it off at Fisherman's Wharf.
Do the same for the return journey.
Sausalito and Tiburon are worth a visit on the ferry if no car is at hand.
Last edited by: John H on Tue 8 Jan 13 at 19:32
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We're not driving this time - basically we've taken a package that flies us to LA - then flies us on between Las Vagas and other places by small aircraft etc. Used Dollar in the past and thanks to a tip on here got their priority card which saves a lot of trouble.
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That's going some.
Reviving a thread that was started only two months after C4P started.
I see the OP was bell boy.
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Looks like Dollar no longer offer the fuel-inclusive Gold option for hires of less than 4 days.
Anyhow, for 2 days/nights in Fisherman's Wharf the cost of parking at Hilton isn't too much considering the car will allow you the freedom to travel at your convenience.
Whoever you book thorugh (UScarhire, flightbookers, holidayautos, etc.), note that Alamo and National give the option to return the car with a full tank, whereas Dollar cahrge for the full tank upfront and do not give any refund for unused fuel.
A day trip in the car following the trip North over the Golden Gate Bridge as shown in the third cycling route in the link below should be rewarding.
inl.org/cycling/rides/the-tiburon-loop/
detailed map
www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/87447011
That tour includes www.nps.gov/goga/index.htm
"Golden Gate National Recreation Area contains an amazing collection of seacoast fortifications that offers examples of nearly every important development in military fortification from the Civil War to the Cold War. No matter how they were constructed, all the fortifications were all built with one purpose - to protect San Francisco Bay from enemy attack. The batteries of Golden Gate National Recreation Area provide physical examples of the nation's changing history and examples of the military's need to constantly modify and update its own technology."
For your second day, consider a day trip to Pebble Beach, Carmel, and Monterey.
Last edited by: John H on Wed 9 Jan 13 at 00:17
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You dont need a hire car in SF. Its 20 bucks from the Airport to Fishermans Wharf in a taxi, and there is a shuttle bus back to the airport from your hotel (does all the wharf hotels).
Once there you can walk to the cable car stop that will take you to all places of note in the city. Book yourself on the evening tour of Alcatraz (book it online here) take the ferry over to Sausalito (sitting on the dock of the bay). Have a meal in chinatown.
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>> Its 20 bucks from the Airport to Fishermans Wharf in a taxi,
>>
www.taxifarefinder.com/
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>>You dont need a hire car in SF
I'd go further and say that it'd be a real pain and best not done.
However, it is worth renting a car for a day or two to get outside San Fran, there's loads of good stuff to see.
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If you had a car in SF itself (i.e. for the central bit not suburbs etc) then I'd say pointless too. And to fill it up with petrol you'll have to drive out of the centre because there are no filling stations in central SF due to fire risk. At least that used to be the case.
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>>because there are no filling stations in central SF
Not sure about that; there are many. And have been for loads of years.
Ignoring the quite reasonable possibility that I'm delusional.
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>> If you had a car in SF itself (i.e. for the central bit not suburbs
>> etc) then I'd say pointless too.
>>
Isn't that stating the obvious?
I should think that goes without saying that it is pointless to have a car in most city centres in the world, that are served by decent local transport, if the city centre is all you want to visit.
>> And to fill it up with petrol you'll have
>> to drive out of the centre because there are no filling stations in central SF
>> due to fire risk. At least that used to be the case.
>>
I suppose these must be in a parallel Universe:
goo.gl/maps/qJlaf
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>> Isn't that stating the obvious?
Yes it is. SF isn't that big so a car is not much use IMO.
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>> However, it is worth renting a car for a day or two to get outside
>> San Fran, there's loads of good stuff to see.
>>
reinforces what I said.
The cost of daily rental (all inclusive bar fuel) from Alamo/National via ebookers is less than £25 a day in April for a mid-size car. Add the $38 per night for parking at the Hilton, and a few $ for fuel for two days use to do the trips I suggested, and overall the cost comes to around £120.
For that you get to drive over the Golden Gate Bridge, tour the areas around San Fran, and get to drive to/from the airport - all at your convenience.
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Have you been to San Francisco John?
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>> Have you been to San Francisco John?
>>
>>
Many many times, and hired a car on every occasion.
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"We're not driving this time"
Thanks for the info guys - no need to argue. I'll check out the stuff when we get there.
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I know you said you're not getting a car above ;-) Thought I'd chip in why I also didn't think so for those that stumble on the thread later.
I've not been to SF in a long while - prefer to travel where I want to. Means I haven't visited my brother in California in a while too! :-) See him when he comes to the UK.
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"Looks like Dollar no longer offer the fuel-inclusive Gold option for hires of less than 4 days."
Shame, I have been using that for a few years now - hiring in Key West to get back to Orlando - inclusive hire was about £30 whereas petrol alone would probably be £40.
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R.P.
Enjoy SF...if you have a car, drive over GG bridge to Sausalito and maybe take a scenic helicopter tour from there. My Tahoe friends did it recently for a Xmas present and you fly under the bridge! I have a CD they made of the flight...all still photos put to music. Continue the short distance up Hway1 to Point Reyes National Seashore. Park by the YH and walk (no unauthorised traffic) to Drakes Bay.
Buy a Muni 3 day $21 pass. I did last month when I was in Sf...you get unlimited travel on ALL cable cars, trams and Muni buses.
We stayed at the Sheraton in F Wharf, and the Hyatt last July (thank you Priceline...another winner) so you are close to both the Powell Hyde & Powell Mason cable car lines. I recommend bfast, assuming you are R/O at the Beach Street Grill, although out of season they are only open Monday thru Friday.
Take a trip around the USS Pampanito on Pier 45, a WW2 sub, then stroll up to Coit Tower, see the murals, take in the 360 view from the top, stroll down Telegraph Hill (next door) on the steep woodem walkways and see the flocks of wild parrots.At the bottom, lunch at Grumpys Bar, 125 Vallejo St, only minutes from the Embarcadero. Closed Sat & Sunday (private parties only) but buzzing with local workers during the week. Good food & beer.
The Giants season starts early April. Try to get tickets for a daytime ball game at AT & T Park, or if not have a tour of the ground. Towards the S end of the Embarcadero, past the Ferry Building and the Bay Bridge (not the GG bridge!) is the HiDive bar/restaurant at Pier 38. I recommend Fat Tire beer and an F line, or venison burger, served outside on the terrace. The best time to go is match days...a sea of orange clad Giants fans eating & drinking...the normal 12:45 staret game finishes around 4pm, then its back to the HiDive for me!
The 'Exploratorium' opens mid April, relocating to a pier on the Embarcado from the old Palace of Fine Arts. An interesting hands on experience to kill a few hours if its raining.
Lots of Italian restaurants in North Beach close to FW..my favourite for Mexican in that part of the worlkd is Don Pisto's, 510 Union. No sign outside when I was last there. Good food, bottomless pitchers of margeritas for $17, or 5 beers for $20. (I like my drink)
And when you get to Vegas, try to visit Fremont St at night (again, get a bus pass) and for decent food I eat at Strip Burger opposite the Wynn, sitting outside under a curtain of chilled water vapour.
If you want any more info, email me care of the mods.
Enjoy.
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>> twmercer tweets about iceland.......: Honestly. If you can't look after your volcano you shouldn't be
>> allowed to keep one.
>>
I don't know, first they take our money, then refuse to pay it back AND blow smoke in our faces... :->
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> >>
>>
>> I don't know first they take our money then refuse to pay it back AND
>> blow smoke in our faces... :->
>>
LOL ( through gritted teeth); I'm a distinctly unhappy camper at the moment, I'm supposed to be starting a new job in Stockholm on Monday, so I was going to fly out of Heathrow tomorrow morning. I'm not now:-((( Not sure if it's even worth booking an eye wateringly expensive midweek flight, as there is no predictable end to this bloomin ash.
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Stockholm?
Drive, if you set off sunday morning you will be there by Monday morning.
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>> Stockholm?
>>
>> Drive if you set off sunday morning you will be there by Monday morning.
>>
It might come to that yet, mind you I'd have to find a ferry / tunnel route that isn't fully booked. A coach to Brussels then trains to stockholm is also under consideration at the moment.
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Its causing chaos in Europe as well. Apparently there are no cars to be hired in Paris.
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Why travel? Stay at home in the Spring. New Lambs in the fields here. Ravens and Buzzards Wheeling overhead, Pheasants and all manner of wildlife trying to eat each other. No traffic etc.
Bliss, just bliss...........................M
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'cos I need to earn money and it seems the only job in Europe that 100% matches my CV is in bloomin' Stockholm ( OK there are far worse places to work..)
Took a trip on the West Somerset Railway earlier in the week, there were plenty of ickle lambs boinging about, buzzards overhead etc. Very nice. Minehead was like ice station zebra mind you.
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>> New Lambs in the fields here.
Just been down to watch the sea lions off Pier 39 - surprisingly warm here in SF for this time of year apparently.
Of course it's not ideal despite the sunshine - stepsons were kind enough to house and dog sit for the 2 weeks we've been away, and I think the novelty will have worn off by now. The car will be pining for us in the car park (I've let them know we've been delayed). We're also in the process of moving house. And checking my work email I discovered I'm expected to fix a fairly significant customer issue on Monday - I've let the boss know I've got my work laptop with me, although I can only get a strong enough Wifi signal to get VPN working when I sit in the hotel lobby...
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...- I've let the boss know I've got my work laptop with me...
Focus,
You originally booked to come back on Friday, giving yourself a couple of days for delays and to get over the journey.
This shows a responsible attitude to the day job - some people would have aimed to return on Sunday.
You have also been in touch with the boss and seem to accept that on Monday your time is theirs, even though you are a few thousand miles away.
Were I in charge, I'd be thinking that Focus fellow couldn't have done a lot more.
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>> Monday your time is theirs even though you are a few thousand miles away.
Its a global wired economy, does not matter where you are these days, work is work.
>> Were I in charge I'd be thinking that Focus fellow couldn't have done a lot
>> more.
Were I in charge i would be thinking about contigency plans, and how I could mitigate this for the next two weeks, and what to do in the future.
What if the focus fellows plane crashed on the way home? How would my company cope.
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Try dfds tor lines - freight ferry from Immingham or Tilbury to Gothenberg, then train journey for a few hours across Sweden.
Passengers (with or without cars) allowed assuming there is cabin space once the truckers are loaded.
Alternative ferries from Harwich to Esbjerg and then trains, or (when it's not full) Eurostar to Brussels, THALYS to Cologne, sleeper to Copenhagen and then train to Stockholm.
>> It might come to that yet mind you I'd have to find a ferry /
>> tunnel route that isn't fully booked. A coach to Brussels then trains to stockholm is
>> also under consideration at the moment.
>>
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Thanks for that, many moons ago I used the ferry from Felixstowe to Gothenburg, that would've been a relatively easy trip, with the reasonably quick and fairly cheap train to Stockholm. Of course that ferry service is long gone, I'll check out those freight ferries.
Not the ideal way to start a new job!
The DB rail travel planner is pretty good for these complex journeys, covers pretty much the whole of Europe:-
reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?newrequest=yes&protocol=http:&
That one will be going in my Bookmarks folder :-/
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>> Try dfds tor lines - freight ferry from Immingham or Tilbury to Gothenberg then train
>> journey for a few hours across Sweden.
hjd, are you aware of any freight ferries from the south of England to Hamburg or Cuxhaven?
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Not unless you think Immingham is in the South... DFDS Tor Lines again Immingham to Cuxhaven.
Apparently there was a Harwich to Cuxhaven ferry which no longer runs.
I am not in any way an expert on ferries, but have a daughter studying Swedish and Finnish who will be off for her year abroad soon - and she won't fly, so the alternatives are all being explored!
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>>
LOL ( through gritted teeth)
Should that be 'gritty teeth'?
OK. I'm going.
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LHR & LGW closed until 1900 on Saturday.
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>> >>
>> LOL ( through gritted teeth)
>>
>> Should that be 'gritty teeth'?
>>
>> OK. I'm going.
>>
I blow a raspberry in your general direction ;-)
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The BA web site isn't terribly helpful at the moment, on the front page it's clear that no one is going anywhere, yet the online check-in still sort of works, to the extent that it won't let me change my flight or get a refund because it thinks I'm flying out today. If you phone the support line it basically says go look at the web site. Time to swot up on those ferries.
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Just what is and isn't flying? I heard hot-air balloons are grounded, but on a walk to the shops two light aircraft and a helicopter went over.
Would piston engined aircraft be affected? Do they use air filters that could clog or what would happen if their engines injested the ash?
There's another just gone over!
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A light dusting on my lovely Vectra here in very sunny Christchurch, but I reckon it's the usual tree pollen rather than that chuffing volcano.
Still, spring is here and it looks like a blue twit might finally settle in the bird box my youngest daughter made in woodwork* 3 years ago :-)
tinypic.com/r/14mf69t/5
* they give it some fancy name but it amounts to woodwork
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At least someone has come to their senses and realized that's it's perfect flying weather. In most areas; light planes and even balloons can fly without NATS blessing using VFR.
Piston engines don't like dust either - but as there isn't any, the problem doesn't arise.
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It's very strange looking up at the clear blue sky and not seeing any jet trails...
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As much as I feel sorry for people stuck all over the place, don't confuse NATS (and EUROCONTROL) with the usual politically correct namby pamby government quangos. Believe me, the amount of money this will cost the airlines is huge, and if they could be flying they would. Safety Ãs safety and airlines are risk averse.
As for clear blue sky, just because you can't see it does not mean its not there. Most of its up high (aircraft cruising altitude) so you wouldn't see it. I also understand that it is not only abrasive (like sand) but has a habit of melting inside gas turbines and stopping them working. Aircraft don't like sand much, and they fly out of it as quickly as possible (usually over it). Flying over it is not an option in this case.
Unfortunately, unless it is a military aircraft (or light aircraft), flying below the ash cloud is not an option. 1) it burns more fuel, and 2) it overloads the wing spars and significantly shortens the wings life (aircraft are disigned to operate at a certain air density). Even the military are limited to 3000ft at the moment.
I also have a couple of trips planned in the comming weeks, so I am also hoping that things get back to normal soon. Good luck to all those of you are stuck, at least some of you are in sunny places!
Joe
(Sorry for the long first post, but I have only just found this version of the old place)
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Joe
You are quite correct; aircraft cannot cruise normally at low altitude - the air-drag from the denser air is immensely greater and would indeed stress the airframe.
However; they can - and do - operate perfectly well at low altitude - at reduced speed. I don't think fuel cost is going to be a factor anymore; competitive forces may be taking a back seat for a while....
The risk of engine failure from glass forming in the combustion chambers has only been seen when planes have inadvertently strayed into ash clouds where the visibility - in daylight - would have been measured not in miles, but in yards. The rock to gas ratio in there isn't measured in PPM, but percentages - and the gas bit is likely SO2.
When it comes to ash in the atmosphere; if you can't even see it through miles of clean air, then a jet turbine can eat it OK - they may prefer not to and it will increase wear and tear on the compressor blades slightly, depending on density, but otherwise they will shrug it off - as they demonstrably do every day in all other harsh operating conditions worldwide.
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Guys, this is primarily a European issue with significant relevance to The British Isles where most of us speak the Queen's English - for the moment let's ignore those pesky outlying areas to the north and west where they use other strange tongues.
It's an aeroplane problem and anyone telling me to go to a train station instead will be severely dealt with with !
By the way, this site let's you know at what heights the evil dust is lurking:
metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271417376.png
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Any chance of a mod merging all three threads on this topic?
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That's a nuisance - just checked and it's gone. It was map giving tech aviation advice. In essence it showed the stuff typically ranging between 20,000 ft and 35,000 ft.
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Quick, check out National Geographic right now, they're doing the Aircrash Investigation with the 747 that lost all engines in the ash cloud in 1982, repeated on NatGeo+1.
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am i the only one then?
i can see the moon
i can see stars
a plane with engines and sticky out things is flying through this mift
are we all missing something before i get a knock on the door and get carted off to the goolag
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"Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Friday April 16, 2045
The volcanic ash cloud continues to affect UK airspace. Following the latest update from the Met Office, NATS advises that the restrictions currently in place across UK controlled airspace will remain in place until at least 1300 (UK time) on Saturday April 17.
There are currently no airspace restrictions in Scotland, Northern Ireland and in an area over the North Sea that includes the Shetlands and Orkney Isles. Manchester, Liverpool and all airports North of those may be available from 0400 (UK time) – 1000 (UK time) for departures to and arrivals from the North and West subject to individual co-ordination. However, please be advised that the situation is continuously changing. Forecasts indicate that the ash cloud is expected to return over Northern England at 1000 (UK time) and it is likely that restrictions will be reintroduced.
Please note these arrangements do not mean that all flights will operate. Anyone hoping to travel today or tomorrow should contact their airline before going to the airport.
We are looking for opportunities when the ash cloud moves sufficiently for us to enable some flights to operate under individual coordination with ATC.
We will review further Met Office information and at 0900 (UK time) on Saturday we will advise further arrangements.
We continue to work closely with airports, airlines, and the rest of Europe to understand and mitigate the implications of the volcanic eruption. "
goo.gl/RP7F
Goolag for you.
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And be it moon, or sun, or what you please:
And if you please to call it a rush-candle,
Henceforth I vow it shall be so for me.
- Katharine to Petruchio
Whatever you say BB :)
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I was talking to a friend in Vancouver this afternoon and, based on media reports and his Mt St Helens experience, he thought that the sky would be black and everyone would be driving with their headlights on, peering though the murk.
When I told him it was crystal clear andf a nice sunny day; he also couldn't see why nothing was flying.
Since when is it NATS job to decide if conditions are safe to operate - isn't that the CAA's province?
At how many parts per million of dust does a jet engine start to have problems and where is the nearest example of those conditions?
Just what is going on here and what aren't we being told?
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Yeah Screwloose, but it's the WRONG KIND of ash... :)
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Fri 16 Apr 10 at 23:58
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Maybe you saw this one BB...
goo.gl/Uywh
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I would suggest the conspiracy theorists read the pdf files in this link:
www.ericmoody.com/
I'm due to fly soon and am quite happy to forgo the pleasures rather than take the risk, particularly of a night flight.
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you will be telling me men landed on the moon next
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I've always been fairly well acquainted with the circumstances surrounding that incident; but that was as far from the conditions here as a tornado is to a light breeze.
That aircraft flew into what must have been almost a solid wall of hot ash and rock dust. There was likely very little oxygen remaining in it as well. In daylight the pilot wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. It's not at all surprising that the engines sustained the damage that they did.
Here, in the SE, there isn't even the slightest smell of sulphur, or even a trace of ash in the air. Are NATS really saying that there is the slightest risk in operating even a helicopter through perfectly clean air?
Flying is dangerous; but a bit of talcum-powder causing haziness at certain flight levels doesn't begin to compare to thunderstorms and icing cloud. Airborne dust levels are far worse in Africa and the Far/Middle East.
This is just another "avoidance of responsible decision-making" incident of the type that plagues this country. It's about time that someone grew a pair and used their common sense.
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Common sense can be a false friend in uncommon circumstances. If I was booked to fly at the moment, I'd be happy not to - and I'm not by any means a nervous flyer.
I suspect if this goes on much longer we will see a re-introduction of flights, but by then with more knowledge of likely consequences not just for safety but also possible engine damage.
Full credit to NATS for at least being decisive - at least it removes commercial competitive pressures from the equation.
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Volcanos are not uncommon circumstances - there are around a couple of hundred active at any one time. Planes simply avoid them. Iceland's airspace is still open - they're used to volcanos.
Volcanic ash girdles the globe - once in the stratosphere it's so fine it stays there. Sand, dust, soot - all sorts are found in the air in many countries and the engines cope. Can you imagine the laughter in drought-stricken Alice Springs about near-invisible dust over Europe stopping flights?
Running away from a decision isn't being decisive - there is no perfect safety, it's all a matter of how much you can afford. NATS should map the ash and leave the decision on where, when and what to fly to the CAA and the engine makers.
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Recently released pictures of Finnish Air force engine damage caused by volcanic dust just before the ban imposed.
www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html
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I don't see why Australians should be cackling any more than usual or why we should be concerned if they are.
Regardless of whether the CAA permits flying, and what the engine makers say, the airlines will balance the astronomical costs of not flying against the possibly catastrophic consequences (even if the chances of actual in flight engine failure are discounted) of having half their fleets grounded for engine rebuilds for which there is no capacity on this scale.
I doubt that the UK airlines are currently supine - together 7 of them are the biggest shareholder in NATS apart from the government, and I suspect what we see here is at least partly a collective decision by the airlines themselves.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a resumption of flights this week even if conditions don't change materially, but at that point it will be a decision supported by data rather than "common sense", which I doubt would be an effective defence against multi-billion pound claims.
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Why should there be any engine degradation? Why on earth would they want to fly through the affected levels?
All the time that there are clear corridors in and out of the UK there should be planes flying down them - even if it's at 3,000ft - charge a fuel premium. Nobody is suggesting that there is a UK-wide blanket of ash from deck to ceiling, so there is no justifaction for a blanket ban; when that Dornier discovered ash at certain levels, then by definition, the other levels were clear, or at least undetectable.
NATS' union is effectively taking industrial action to protect its members from any possible chance of legal action. Its rulebook says that they won't provide ATC for any airspace "affected" by volcanic ejectate.
Iceland's airspace is very definitely affected - but they take the "common sense" approach and use the bits that aren't. So should we.
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See the other thread. Civil airliners cannot operate for long periods at low altitude, it over stresses the wing. As for Iceland, they are probably operating smaller aircraft designed for low altitude operation. The country is tiny.
Please remember the airline industry is risk averse, if you loose both engines and cannot restart them you are looking at 100+ deaths. I do not think they are worried about legal action, and the rules were set in the 80's and 90's.
Joe
(I am not connected to NATS, just worked for the industry a while)
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Joe
Reply on your other post.
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>> Iceland's airspace is very definitely affected - but they take the "common sense" approach and
>> use the bits that aren't. So should we.
Not sure how affected it actually is, because of the way the wind is blowing. Here is a map from Wikipedia that seems to show it is hardly affected at all.
tinyurl.com/y67xoj6
By the same measure, map seems to show Scotland and Ireland as unaffected, which is perhaps why there is some talk resuming flights there.
Of the countries that the ash is heavily covering, the UK does not seem to be alone in restricting air travel.
tinyurl.com/y2g9erq
It could be just a way for the union workers to take some time off, or it could be that there is actually a serious perceived risk here. Personally I think that the latter is more likely.
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For an informed non-conspiratorial view see:
glidemet.co.uk/
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On the other hand:
The real reason why planes are grounded is that ash demons ejected from the center of the earth crawl into the jet engines and munch on the blades.
They have also been known to conduct themselves through the electrical wiring into the cabin.
They slide into your brain through your nose and take possession.
A very nasty business that the authorites would just as soon you not know about.
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CGN
I see you've been reading David Icke again.....
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>> On the other hand:
>>
>>
>> The real reason why planes are grounded is that ash demons ejected from the center
>> of the earth crawl into the jet engines and munch on the blades.
>> They have also been known to conduct themselves through the electrical wiring into the cabin.
>> They slide into your brain through your nose and take possession.
>> A very nasty business that the authorites would just as soon you not know about.
They are called gremlins. They exist. Filmed here.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrNsLMEYSFY
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Radar picture of the crater reveals the alien power behind the eruption.
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2494181/posts
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> Iceland's airspace is still open
Of course it is, its blowing south off the island. They are not flying south though are they.
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Well we've had one or two helicopters go over and I've heard one aeroplane and seen another. The one I saw had propellors and sounded like a piston engined job. Less susceptible I guess. But the steady stream of Easyjets into Liverpool and all the rest into Manchester have stopped.
JH
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Any chance of a mod merging all three threads on this topic?
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Merging - Two out of three ain't bad...
I have to ask Screwloose, you seem to be blaming NATS but how can that be when it a lot of Europe is in the same state?
That's the same as blaming Labour for the banking crisis, which was worldwide.
Do you read the Mail? :-)
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 17 Apr 10 at 20:36
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The Mail? That left-wing rag...? I read the Guardian!
NATS is just typical of the "can't do" attitude that didn't make Britain what it once was. Europe can do what it likes.
Did NZ's Edmund Hillary get to the base of Everest and go: "Ooh, er; that does look a bit high, y'know..." Instead of working out what can be flown where, they go and tremble in the cupboard in case one of those nasty ash-monsters, that CGN believes in, might be somewhere about.
When I go outside, I can see from Mill Hill behind Brighton to the hills west of Worthing - a view 20 miles deep and 25 miles wide. Looking north; I can, normally, see the planes taking off west from Gatwick and the line of them from Brest descending over the Isle of Wight towards the turn over Mayfield beacon to pick up the ILS.
Today has been a beautiful Spring day - clear as a bell. There is no ash in the air across that expansive view at all. Its particulate size may be too small to see with the naked eye - but so are smoke particles and you can see a few million of them clearly enough.
There have been quite a few light planes buzzing around - even a microlight - and none have been seen heading for the deck in rank disorder. [Apart from the one at Andover and that was likely something else.]
So what's stopping a low-level shuttle service from Gatwick and Heathrow to Points Outside the dust-zone? The usual Schipol-Heathrow bus-run usually comes over every hour, never higher than 5,000 feet and well throttled back to eke out the last drop of fuel. Flying through spotless air, what on earth was supposed to happen to it?
I don't blame Labour for the banking crisis - they were only following the Squid's orders. But the fiscal state of this country is on a knife-edge and the horrendous loss of business that being completely cut off will cause, could easily cause a loss of creditor confidence and tip us over the edge - one failed Gilt auction and we'd have a full-blown Sterling crisis on our hands by the following afternoon.
The one thing that is definitely still flying is this Black Swan.
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I bet the car rental, ferry, and train companies are rubbing their hands with glee this weekend!
Will this experience be another nail in BA's financial coffin?
By my rough calculations, 20,000 flights cancelled in Europe on Saturday, with approximately 100 passengers per flight = 2 million people! It'll take weeks for the airlines to clear the backlog! Even if half of the journeys are cancelled, (business trips, holidays, etc.) that still leaves a million!
Will the airlines be clever enough to repatriate people on return legs before re-booking the planes with people who are starting their journeys and could go and stay at home instead?
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Some interesting chat here by professional pilots.
tinyurl.com/y5ytd77
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But does Tony Woodley thinks it's divine intervention?
Pat
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> Will the airlines be clever enough to repatriate people on return legs before re-booking >the planes with people who are starting their journeys and could go and stay at home >instead?
The airline booking system, well the BA one in any case, does seem to be clever enough to
do this. I had a long conversation with a really very helpful lady at BA this morning whilst trying to find a flight home for my wife who is currently stuck in Hong Kong. Their system does not register how long someone has been waiting for a flight and they are operating a 1st come 1st served system for rebooking. I was told that the flights from HK to UK were very fully booked before the incident so slotting so many people into the few spare seats was going to be tough.
My wife was told on arrival in HK from Saigon that she & her mum would be put on the 1st available flight to LHR (long story as to why) so we naively assumed that she was. Turns out not to be the case and that she needed to rebook herself. No one answering phones in HK, no one at the BA desk at the airport and BA would not let me do the rebooking. Excellent. Eventually I spoke to a fantastic person today who after grilling me about the details of the booking decided I was genuine and let me rebook. They have seats for the 8th of May; we got the last 2 on that day. BA staff have discretion it appears to book people in any class but there was nothing in any class until then.
We are hoping that when planes start flying again that there will be lots of cancellations (missed meetings, holidays etc) so she might get home earlier.
She is currently in a swanky hotel with 3 meals a day provided by BA - I cannot imaagine that will go on for 3 weeks though!
I wonder what employers' attitudes will be to these long absences - there must be thousands of people in the same boat.
Ah well, we live in intersting times.
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Some interesting views here.
www.radarvirtuel.com/
Best using Google Chrome
Click layers to remove the 'volcano ash' layer.
How is it Transavia can fly when the others are grounded?
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Well, conspiracy of not, it looks like the airlines are starting to question the decision too
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8628323.stm
It seems that the airlines are starting to get some actual data, so perhaps things will start moving.
Still, woe betide anybody who gives the green light if there does end up being a crash.
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I don't get paid until we're flying again, so the sooner the better IMHO!
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>> I don't get paid until we're flying again so the sooner the better IMHO!
>>
Likewise.
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And I don't get paid 'til I turn up in Stockholm!
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>> And I don't get paid 'til I turn up in Stockholm!
>>
thought you left to get the morning ferry? could be half way there by now
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 18 Apr 10 at 19:51
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Couldn't get through to DFDS Tilbury yesterday, but it's still plan B if LHR doesn't start flying Tuesday.
Better stuck here than trying to get home I suppose.
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my thread has been watered down but now at least men in suits with a brain are finally thinking i may be right
thanks too to screwloose another founding member of the theory that no fly is stupid
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>> thanks too to screwloose another founding member of the theory that no fly is stupid
Except for the Dung Midge of course, the stupidest of all the midges...
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>> >> thanks too to screwloose another founding member of the theory that no fly is
>> stupid
>>
>> Except for the Dung Midge of course the stupidest of all the midges...
Not so stupid, its warm and happy in its pile of.......
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I'm due to fly soon.
If you hear about a 'plane crash, but notice I'm missing from here...............
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Spamcan- have you tried the DFDS ferry route Harwich to Ejsberg in Denmark, train / coach or car across Denmark to Friedeikshaven and take the ferry from there to Gothenburg and then train / coach / car to Stockholm?
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>> Spamcan- have you tried the DFDS ferry route Harwich to Ejsberg in Denmark train /
>> coach or car across Denmark to Friedeikshaven and take the ferry from there to Gothenburg
>> and then train / coach / car to Stockholm?
>>
Not yet thanks, but who knows... Looks like there is a slim chance my flight might escape LHR tomorrow, in theory I'm on the 20:15 flight, there seems a vague chance LHR will be open by then. If that doesn't fly then it's down to a long ferry / train journey one way or another - say 36 hours or so - or gamble on LHR flights on Saturday, which are rapidly filling up of course. decisions decisions!
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This is for all the peeps stuck overseas due to a bit of dust in the air.
It won't hasten your return but it'll certainly be enjoyed by all.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEllLECo4OM
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You can get trains from Esbjerg to Stockholm. Alternative is Eurostar then various trains.
Full details here www.seat61.com/Sweden.htm
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Thanks for the various travel options! Plan B went pear shaped as BA dropped plans for short haul flights today, so it looks like overland / water options now as it seems wildly optimistic to try and book any air travel now. :-/
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Well looks like the earliest foot passenger availability on the DFDS ferries is next Tuesday. Looks like E* + ICE + various other trains is the front runner now.
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I'm stuck here at home. Marston's Pedigree in hand (and glass) and all is just fine thank you.
Despite that though I do feel sorry for the folk 'out there' abroad who are probably ill equipped either financially or mentally (or both) to cope with the situation. If you ain't ever been in 'it' etc.
MD
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Finally some sense - despite "more ash on the way" all UK airports to open at 2200.
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>>> I'm stuck here at home. Marston's Pedigree in hand (and glass) and all is just fine thank you. <<<
I said to er indoors "Martin's on the beer again" she replied "well, at least he likes decent beer"
- - - See, she knows ya know :)
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Martin's on the Roger and Out now, he might not be back until tomorrow.
goo.gl/mBpo
Last heard of at the Frog and Parrot in Sheffield.
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Just heard tonight - Pugugly is alive and well and being looked after well by Virgin in Florida.
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I am glad to hear he's okay - but he's able to look after himself no doubt ;-)
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he found a virgin in Florida?
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Holy Volcano smoke!
Some people in Florida have been told they wont be home till 4th May!
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Z, I saw a family interviewed on TV at Dover the other day who had been in Orlando. They had flown to Detroit, then Montreal, then Nice in the south of France and hired a car, which they then drove to Calais and got home that way.
Very enterprising, showing that where there's a will, there's a way. Four very young children, I can't imagine doing that with my two though. They must be very travel-tolerant children, I get the heebiejeebies thinking about taking my two to the county line.
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>> Holy Volcano smoke!
>>
>> Some people in Florida have been told they wont be home till 4th May!
>>
And some are not only paying lots of $$$ to stay but their health insurance may / has run out.
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I believe insurance is automatically extended in these circumstances.
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I've seen one! An aeroplane that is. I was expecting the air to be thick with them as they caught up but so far - just the one.
JH
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Hopefully it will get back to normal soon. I thought there was over reaction to the problem but I asked someone who used to work for Rolls Royce and he said he wouldn't fly on a jet through volcanic ash. I trust his opinion.
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I was similarly twitchy until last night I spoke to a friend who has been intimately involved in the science of this decision.
The delay has apparently had two components.
1. Proving that they can measure, model and forecast accurately where and how thick the ash is going to be.
2. Testing the effects of the ash on engines with test flights.
They are happy that they can fly through layers of thin ash without damage. Flying along those layers would down the plane, but if they know where the ash is reliably, they can pass through it quickly and without risk. So now they are happy that they can fly safely around it, it's all good.
On that basis, I intend to catch my flight home later today, assuming that remains possible as we approach the departure time.
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Well I spotted an Easyjet heading into Gatwick which is about 10 minutes drive away at lunchtime and a couple of vapour trails in the distance but its still eerily quiet .....
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Having done some back of the envelope calculations from various internet sources, I came up with the figure that the amount of CO2 "saved" by all the lost flights across Europe is about the same as all the CO2 pumped out by Britain's entire road transport network for three or four days, and that does include the CO2 from the volcano.
Terribly rough but gives an idea. And don't ask me to show my workings cos I've forgotten half the sites I used now.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 21 Apr 10 at 15:43
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My sister arrived from Dubai with Emirites ( start point being Sydney OZ ) at lunchtime. When she left OZ they said she could only go on to NYC, then they offered her Nice, France. By the time she got to Dubai, they had a note uner the door of the overnight hotel room saying she could go to Birmingham ( her original destination ) if she was checked in within the hour, which they managed.
She is very relieved to be back in the uk for a holiday, she didnt think she would ever get here!
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The software used to predict the ash clouds created by the met office is apparently showing the cloud somewhere other than it is (using satellite images). So I can see how not knowing where the ash is/was had to be a problem.
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Well after 1 coach & 4 trains ( including one which went on a ferry w00t ) I've got as far as Copenhagen central station; 29 hours on the road / rail so far. Overnight coach to Stockholm hopefully and then a rest / wash at the B&B !
At least I've seen parts of Europe I'd never see by air, although I can't recommend a midnight wait at Cologne central station (OK Hbf) to anyone.
The Eurostar trains have to be the most underwhelming experience I've had since visitng Stonehenge; getting tatty / grubby inside and inferior in pretty much all respects other than outright speed to the German ICE train I caught from Brussels to Cologne.
P.S. trying to type on a Dansk keyboard layout where the @ symbol is ALT GR 2 is doing my head in.
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Did I just hear something on the news about Shetland and Scottish airports being closed due to ash? I can't find any reference elsewhere.
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Well I'm now in the central bus terminal in very sunny Stockholm, a nice round 48 hours since leaving home. Certainly a much more interesting experience than sitting on an airplane, but I think doing it once is enough. Could easily knock 12 hours out of the schedule if in a (relative) hurry.
Stockholm Arlanda airport is still a bit unpredictable ash wise at the moment, like those Highland ones.
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Sat 24 Apr 10 at 06:20
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while you are there, watch the "girl with a dragon tattoo" Its on at the local flicks, but without subtitles. Let us know if you know whats going on.
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I had a car in San Francisco. Even the main downtown streets seem to consist largely of ramps. It's a bit like driving through a succession of cross-channel ferries. And parking is very tight in e.g. Chinatown although there are (or were in 1973) lots of parkers in residential quiet areas. You are (or were) legally required on those hilly streets to park with yr front wheels turned in sharply to the kerb.
But I don't think I ever spent a night there. I was staying in Berkeley across the bay. Damn good steak sandwiches in a diner in Oakland much favoured by armed-to-the-teeth local cops. Golden Gate and Bay bridges, the latter I think surfaced with steel mesh making yr tyres hum... You may not need a motor in SF itself but you damn well do in most of California.
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airplane updates - Manatee
