What impact will tomorrow's public sector strike have on you, if any?
I don't anticipate any, mostly because I'm off work.
But there might consequences I can't foresee.
The work not done tomorrow will have to be done sometime.
It may be the real impact will be service delays in the coming weeks as the backlog of public administration is cleared.
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Our local library for instance is probably closed. Not that effects me. Schools also closed (also not an effect on me).
Hmm does this mean M6 will be quieter tomorrow :-) I missed the worst of the weather today too... Liverpool before the bad weather. Return home after a meal after it had all finished.
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Market day tomorrow, we have a pub lunch. I guess it will be full of school kids (SWMBO's an ex teacher and claims to be allergic to them).
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>> Market day tomorrow, we have a pub lunch. I guess it will be full of
>> school kids
Reminds me of the time I bunked off school, me and a mate were in the Public Bar of the carpenters arms, throwing some arrows and downing some pints. The public bar and the snug shared the same physical bar as they did in those days, and who should we be spied by in the private bar, but the social sciences teacher, a card carrying left of left welsh bloke.
< imagine best valleys accent >
Well ello then Boyo, looks like we both sing from the same hymsheet then isnt it!
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I guess it will be full of
>> school kids (SWMBO's an ex teacher and claims to be allergic to them).
>>
You don't have to possess a teaching qualification to suffer that. Mrs. HM drives a school bus and suffers likewise!
Me, I'm going to enjoy a traffic-free M4 tomorrow; or am I being a wee bit cynical to think that, with Christmas so close, the area around the Bridgend Designer Shopping Outlet might be a wee bit busy with people who just "happen" to have the day off?
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Public sector gits. We are all in the same (sinking) boat together. History is for learning from, not for re-visiting. My pensions are down the pan too, poss' much worse. These folk have a job. get on and do it. Striking is like riding a rocking horse, it'll give them something to do, but it won't get them anywhere! Sack the ruddy lot of them.
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All three children off school tomorrow.
One has had a non-urgent clinic appointment deferred until next week.
Not sure if the binmen will turn up, the council website says to put the bins out and take them back in if no-one's been by 6pm.
I hadn't thought of the roads being a bit quieter, that's a plus point.
>> My pensions are down the pan too, poss' much worse. These folk have a job
I've never even had a pension, nor am I likely to. I agree that the public sector workers should put up, shut up and be grateful they have a pension (and a job, for that matter) at all. We're all up against it, we've all had to tighten our belts and they're no exception.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 29 Nov 11 at 21:01
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I know of one (well paid) public servant who is having a day out in the shops tomorrow !
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Anthony Hilton writes in tonight's Standard on affordability of public sector pensions.
tinyurl.com/7lojvuc
Not what I expected to read.
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I am hoping for a busy day tomorrow, when all the people off work decide they have problems with their computers.... Strike days go either way.
I suspect retailers could benefit due to Christmas shoppers having the day off.
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>> Not what I expected to read.
>>
Yes, B. Good article. Dispels some of the myths from the right-wing press.
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Will enable them to save on their "Christmas Shopping" allowance.
Don't laugh at the back; within the last 5 years I have visted a Govt Dept that still allowed (albeit on a "informal basis") their staff, half a day off for this purpose.
As always
Mark
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Oh, and it appears PCSOs are striking as well. Good day for shoplifters and burglars then.
I wonder if traffic wardens will be working? ;)
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>> I wonder if traffic wardens will be working? ;)
Most wardens have been privatised...
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Good grief. How appalling. Al that the private sector can afford is bonuses. Quite minor by comparison with half a days leave to the clerical staff?
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In my unit of seven staff it looks as though two, including me, are on strike. Two more on leave either pre planned or because of schools being closed.
From a workflow point of view it's a pain but no more so than coping with a snow day or sickness while other folks are on planned absence. Junior staff lacking normal supervision have a list of stuff to get on with, scripts to cover inquiries that would normally go to absent policy leads and a striker's number to call if they're flummoxed.
No illusions about what we can achieve by action. We're all living longer etc and schemes need to change. Tomorrow is a day of action to demonstrate strength of feeling about govt's handling of negotiations.
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Whilst I agree there is some belt tightening to be done. I ask myself should I work longer for less pension to fund those scroungers that sit at home and won't work who will see no reduction in their entitlements. (And I don't include those that genuinly can't work or are actively seeking work). There is an element of this thinking behind some of the strikers.
'We're all in this together". Oh no we're not!
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 29 Nov 11 at 21:47
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>> Whilst I agree there is some belt tightening to be done. I ask myself should
>> I work longer for less pension to fund those scroungers that sit at home and
>> won't work who will see no reduction in their entitlements. (And I don't include those
>> that genuinly can't work or are actively seeking work). There is an element of this
>> thinking behind some of the strikers.
>>
>> 'We're all in this together". Oh no we're not!
The same thing applies to the private sector, who have had their pensions reduced, savagely so.
No reason why that pain cant be shared with he public sector.
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Maybe the pension reductions have occurred due due to swingeing fees charged by incompetent fund/bank managers?
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>>No illusions about what we can achieve by action.
No PM, especially not the current weasel, wants to be the guy who made GPs go private.
The BMA are starting to talk about balloting industrial action.
The government appear to be trying to spin an "Us vs. the Unions" - they appear not to notice the unions are saying very little - it is the govt vs the (soon to be shrunk by over 700,000) public servants.
Either some sensible negotiations are going to happen, or a very real possibilty of social catastrophe is around the corner.
Public sector pensions are generally in a good state, especially the NHS one, despite the spin.
This is largely a tax-raising process to cover other deficits (eg. the losses incurred bailing out N.Rock), and also a way for the govt to test public opinion for bringing in privatisation as a block on public service striking.
If you think you'll get to see a private GP for a £10 consultation guess again ;-)
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>
>> Public sector pensions are generally in a good state, especially the NHS one, despite the
>> spin.
Err yes, because they are funded by the tax payer.
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Dear Govt
Zero says you are funding my pensions.
Cool - maybe I can get all my superannuation payments back then?
Yours sincerely
A Taxpayer.
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Oh haha, Your pension would be pathetic if it relied on the payments YOU make, where do you think the other contribution comes from? thin air?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 01:05
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>> Oh haha, Your pension would be pathetic if it relied on the payments YOU make,
>> where do you think the other contribution comes from? thin air?
We were offered contracts combining a salary paid now and a deferred element payable after retirement.
Nobody gave us the choice of a funded scheme, still less a funded scheme where the investment decisions and employer contribution holidays were influenced by the punters who might eventually get the pension.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 01:05
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>> We were offered contracts combining a salary paid now and a deferred element payable after retirement.
>>
Welcome to the real world.
Contracts for life for jobs for life have gone out of fashion even in Japan.
Most employment contracts can be ended at one to three months notice.
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I pay just under 2000/month superannuation.
Assuming I worked as a GP from 28 to 60 paying that level I would currently expect a pension of around 44,000/yr plus a lump sum of 132,000.
Using an online pension calculator (www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/yourmoney/interactive/pension_calculator.aspx) with the same contributions, over the same time frame it guesses I would get a pension of 38,160/yr plus a lump sum of 417,000 (25% of the pot is most that can be taken).
As we have all seen, private pensions have underperformed over the last 3-4 yrs very badly - I think I'll stick with the devil I know (and miss out on the extra 285 grand tax-free lump sum).
ps. I'm also a taxpayer.
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>>
Using an online pension calculator (www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/yourmoney/interactive/pension_calculator.aspx ) with the same contributions, over the same time frame it guesses I would get a pension of 38,160/yr plus a lump sum of 417,000 (25% of the pot is most that can be taken).
>>
Can you tell us what assumptions are built in to that model?
IIRC, these type of calculation use FSA specified but long outdated growth assumptions.
I think nowadays to get that kind of growth for your money you would need to to buy bonds sold by the Italian government.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 10:16
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>>I think nowadays to get that kind of growth for your money you would need to to buy bonds sold by the Italian government.
Would be funny if it wasn't true.
I am very concerned that over the next 20-30yrs the reliance on market-fed pots for pensions will lead to an even bigger crisis as more people start taking out of the pot than those contributing.
Money looks great while it's digital, but when people physically start removing it the usual outcome is a market fall.
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>>
>> No illusions about what we can achieve by action. We're all living longer etc and
>> schemes need to change. Tomorrow is a day of action to demonstrate strength of feeling
>> about govt's handling of negotiations.
>>
Whilst I appreciate your candour about the realistic outcome, I disagree with your explanation of the reasons for the strike.
My take on it is that the unions are prepared to negotiate this so long as they get exactly what they want. No change there.
I suspect that this one may be to the current government what the miners' strike was to Thatcher's. The unions know deep down that the private sector working public aren't all that sympathetic, Labour will quietly heave a collective sigh of relief when the unions finally bow to the inevitable, knowing full well that the Coalition has achieved something that they could not hope to deliver, whilst giving them the sympathy vote they'll need to creep back into power again in a few years time.
The thing that sticks in my craw is not so much the union leaders' posturing, but the rank hypocrisy of the Labour leadership for blaming the current government for the mess which they inherited. No change there either.
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>> My take on it is that the unions are prepared to negotiate this so long
>> as they get exactly what they want. No change there.
TBH you'd expect the union's position to be 'no surrender'. And as ever the govt is sometimes their recruiting sergeant.
Danny Alexander's comments along the lines of 'take it or leave it' at the time of the ballots did the unions a massive favour. And Gove's comments in the last 48 hours about militants do his case no favours either.
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>> And Gove's comments in the last
>> 48 hours about militants do his case no favours either.
>>
Disagree, there are many strikers teatering, realising that therre is a hidden agenda could swing them to break the strike.
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It won't affect me unless I'm called upon to use the tram/train perhaps. The wheely bins are at the kerb ( optimistically )
I'm currently fitting a kitchen at daughter's so I'm off to Stockport...I guess the traffic may be a little easier. Was going to bring a few sacks of rubble home and call at the tip on the way but I'll leave that 'til next visit.
Ted
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Just dump the litter outside the town hall, there will be staff around to catch/fine you :D
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Naughty Rats....can I borrow your car later in the week ?
Ted
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Perhaps ther will be a picket line at the Polyversity in the morning. Or perhaps, if I dawdle a bit, they'll be off marching their flags around the town hall square, and I'll sneak in quietly, and get my work done.
Interestingly, most of my immediate colleagues, even the union members, say they're going in tomorrow, so, support even in the Guardian reading stronghold that is the Polyversity isn't all that strong.
In this case, my sympathy for the students far outweighs any latent sympthy I have for those whose pensions are far far better than those avalable elsewhere (or available to me!)
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Probably because the Grauniad got the date wrong !
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This is one blogger's view. Devil's Kitchen - Google the name and you will find the original.
I take no position on the strike myself, as it will not affect me one iota
.
Here's the quote:-
".*********
The main driver for this "super-strike" is that the government has pointed out that the gold-plated, defined-benefit, public sector pensions are utterly unaffordable and intends to change the terms of the deal. Finally.
Not that they are intending to switch away from defined-benefit pensions—oh no! What they are proposing is that public sector workers pay in an extra 3% of their salary towards their absurdly generous retirement salaries. And this is, apparently, a problem.
One thing to note is that the private sector, both employers and employees, are being forced to contribute an extra 8% minimum towards their derisory state pension schemes—making the public sector's 3% increase for their defined-beneft schemes look, frankly, pathetically paltry.
But listen to any public sector worker whinge and you'd think that every third one of them was being sent to a gulag, not being asked to pay a fraction closer to what they should be. You can see these parasitical fools commenting on blogs (as well as hear them in person), saying things like this...
"But we already pay, like, 9% of our salaries towards our pension. We're just asking to get what we've paid for."
Really? OK, let's have a look at some facts, shall we?
A nurse retiring on a salary of £34,200 after 40 years would receive a pension of £22,800. To obtain that level of income from a private sector pension at current annuity rates, a worker would need to amass a pension pot of £600,000, the Treasury said.
According to pensions experts at Hargreaves Lansdown, a private sector worker on the same income who saved the average of 9 per cent of salary into a pension over a career might build a pension pot of £258,000.
They estimated that to save £500,000 into a private pension, a worker would need to start by setting aside £600 a month from the age of 23. Someone who earns £40,000 and puts aside 9 per cent into a workplace pension is only saving £300 a month.
So, here's a message to public sector workers—I am happy for you to receive what you have paid for. And that is a pension pot of rather less than £250,000. And when you retire, you can take that pension pot and invest it in an annuity pension, as the rest of us are forced to do (by law).
And the earlier you retire—and we all know that public sector workers have a tendency to retire rather earlier than everyone else. Presumably because of the stress associated with filing forms in triplicate—the less your pension income will be.
That is what the rest of us have to do. And, as you say, you only want what you've paid for.
Oh, wait—you don't want that?
Oh right! You don't actually want what you paid for? Oh yes, you want what you were promised—even though it was patently unaffordable?
Tough.
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Many of my wife's NHS colleagues are striking but going shopping in Cardiff for the day, which tells me really all I need to know! And some of them don't even know why they're striking, tells me some more!
My view? They should try a stint in the private sector to see what the real world is like.
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I agree totally with the sentiments of the blogger quoted in Roger's post above though not with Roger's assertion that it will not affect him one iota, it will affect all of us.
The strike will cost the economy hundreds of millions when it can ill afford it and the prospect of the government not achieving a settlement on behalf of the tax payer would cost us for generations.
While teachers. health workers etc do a fantastic job I truly belive that many public sector works dont realise that the rest of us pay for their salary and hence their income tax, NI and pension contributions. In this regard it can be argued that anyone in the public sector should simply be paid net.
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Let them strike. Let them continue to do so, repeatedly. Each strike turns more of the public against them because real people, on real wages will never have it that good.
At a time with high unemployment, huge sqeezes on living costs and no end in sight, the spectacle of striking to fight over pensions far more generous than most private sector workers can expect is grotesque.
Five years ago, yes by all means, but in the backdrop of such difficult global economic times it smacks of a poor grip on reality.
My wife works now 45 hours a week. Her pension is a 3% contribution with 6% from her employers. It aint gonna work out at much after 30+ years but its whats on offer so she took it. She gets £6.25 an hour.
But she isnt stiking or complaining, she is GRATEFUL she has a job, GRATEFUL she has a pension and just happy she can pay the bills unlike 2.5 million ( and rising ) people in this country.
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Roads were quiet this morning!
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>> Many of my wife's NHS colleagues are striking but going shopping in Cardiff for the
>> day, which tells me really all I need to know! And some of them don't
>> even know why they're striking, tells me some more!
The purpose of a strike is to inconvenience the employer by withdrawing your labour. They don't want everybody on the picket line, legal guidance is max 6. Those who want to march round town with banners can. For the rest it's a duvet day or whatever. Bit of a novelty for most of them too.
And I seriously doubt any of them don't know why they're striking. Might not know the minutiae of the negotiations but the basic message is universaly understood.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 09:23
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Morning Bromp,
Suppose you'll get the chance to sweep up a few leaves in the garden today. :)
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This is in reply to 'the bloggers view' from Roge, from my missus:
Good write up – but as we know it’s a case of – we are all in this together, as long as it doesn’t affect me. The Tax Office in ******* has their picket line out there this morning – and all I can hope for is that it pours with rain on them. No one I know (all private sectors workers most of whom didn’t get a rise for over 3 years and who have no chance of a pension like the public sector get) has any sympathy for them. They are like the eurocrats have rode the gravy train for so long they can’t/won’t accept it’s unaffordable. Also all this rubbish about them taking their jobs to help their community is a load of hogwash – they took them because it was a job and they wouldn’t have cared whether it was a private sector or a public sector employer. Aagh –they drive me mad – selfish lot who are happy to see us (private sector) get nothing because we have to keep contributing more and more money to their pensions.
On a different subject I saw the Serco dustman doing their rounds – that says something for privatising local services!!!!
A good rant – feel a lot better now!!!!!!
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The purpose of a strike is to inconvenience the employer by withdrawing your labour.
No it isn't, it's to inconvenience the public and hope that public pressure will force your employer (the government) to change their mind.
In my view you union has mad a a serious miscalculation of the public mood. Those not in public employment including pensioners are more worried about their own prospects than supporting a group that they perceive to have better security and benefits than they do.
Those in public employment for the most part might not be happy but at the end of the day are resigned to accepting that some change is inevitable and will not be happy to lose pay over this issue.
By and large employee under the age of forty are not overly concerned about pensions anyway.
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There is a lot of talk about the "cost" of a lost day. But I can't see that it is really lost, just postponed by a day.
National life is infinite, nothing is lost by waiting a day for whatever isn't done today to be done tomorrow. Rome didn't fall because the streetsweepers missed a day's work.
A real strike would be if they stayed out indefinitely until the government fell or they crawled back to work.
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A finance manager at a LA said, privately
"The strike will save me just about 0.3 -0.4% of my wages bill for the year"
It's an ill wind ............ as the saying goes.
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..."The strike will save me just about 0.3 -0.4% of my wages bill for the year"...
A quid pro quo is what's needed.
Dock each striker a week's money for each strike day.
Thus they will learn they can have the feather-bedding of a public sector job, but only if they turn up to do it.
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>> Those in public employment for the most part might not be happy but at the
>> end of the day are resigned to accepting that some change is inevitable and will
>> not be happy to lose pay over this issue.
Recent surveys suggest a surprising level of public support.
As to the bit snipped above I think you're partly right. There's no appetite for a fight to the last man/bullet but there is a real sense of injustice over government's handling. Today is a day of action to influence negotiations that will probably (though yesterday's Autumn statement won't help) reach some sot of agreement by Xmas.
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There's some points being missed here.
Public sector workers, in this climate, should be grateful for what they've got (i.e. degree of job security*, good pension, etc) and tell the unions to 'sod off' as they are being dinosaurs...as usual.
* there are quite a few redundancies going on
However. In the big scheme of things, a final salary pension ought to be a goal for all. The fact that the private sector has being dumping them urgently and there's an 'us and them' agenda come to the forefront, between public sector workers and private sector ones...,that doesn't negate the fact that with an ageing population everyone ought to try to achieve a reasonable pension...and the State should be trying to help them achieve that, otherwise the State is likely to have to assist them later in life.
Why were the tax breaks for pension savers seriously tweaked to the detriment of the saver?
When we are out of a recession and the good times roll again, how many major companies will re-instate final salary pensions?
Why isn't there a law preventing the Robert Maxwell's of this land from using their companies to raid pension funds, thus leaving people seriously in the lurch, despite having had the forethought to save for years for their retirement?
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I think the strikes are a good thing and G Osborne is no doubt grateful they will continue until 2012..
As economic conditions are likely to deteriorate very rapidly if things go mammaries up in Euroland, then he can withdraw all offers and get down to a serious offer on pensions.. saving serious amounts of money.
If I were an intelligent and far sighted union leader , I might realise a settlement today is better than one if in a serious recession...
Last edited by: madf on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 10:27
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I haven't seen figures or done any calculations my self but the broad principle of contributing a bit more and working a bit longer to get a decent pension for (probably) a lot longer seems pretty fair. At least a Government pension isn't subject to the vagaries of the stock market and bank shares - the same amount of money comes in every month, regardless. Interesting that Unite have allegedly imposed the same sort of T&Cs on their staff as they are striking about in the world outside!
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Anyone who thinks that changes to pension retirement ages, national Insurance contributions, etc etc will not be 'adjusted' again in the next few years is being a tad naive.
As well as nipping the pensions now, why don't they cut a bit from the guys who have benefited from years of the same: today's pensioners.
Imagine the savings available cutting all publically paid pensions including the BSP by 10% or so.
Effective immediately.
See "Greek austerity measures" for mor info...
About time the non-contributory pension for armed forces was changed to a more modern contributory one.
And getting a pension atfer 22 years? Come off it.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 10:49
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"Public sector workers, in this climate, should be grateful for what they've got (i.e. degree of job security*, good pension, etc) and tell the unions to 'sod off' as they are being dinosaurs...as usual."
I'm surprised at you WP. Now you've "jumped" ship, you've taken what you signed up for so sod the others. Not very team spirited?
My suggestion is that those that were compulsorily made to sign up for final salary pensions have them honoured as agreed. Anyone joining a public service occupation from next April signs a different deal as per the governments instructions.
The caveate for those drawing their PS pensions forfeit the state pension instead, or that is means tested for the lower part time pensioners. This would appease the tax payers and private workers who have no pension provisions and who could possibly enjoy a bigger state pension if the treasury were to make savings at the expense of the public sector.
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Impact on me? Raised Blood Pressure and yet again a day when my plans go awry!
Hampshire has a tertiary system of education, so you leave school at 16 and then go on 'college' - which includes those in Special Education unless they are 'profoundly' disabled. For my son, this means a three day week - Monday, Wednesday and Friday - and considerably shorter terms than both the schools and the rest of the college. Five years ago this was a five day a week course!
So far this term there have been three open days or parents evenings which, for some reason, require the special needs department to close. These are always on a Wednesday.
And then there is today.
One of the annoyances is that those from Dorset, Southampton or Bournemouth will have five full days a week in their Special School, until they are 19. They then join the Hampshire 16 year olds on their course - meaning they get a full three years more education - and are several steps closer to some form of independent living!
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I suspect the strike is going to do more to hurt the workers than help. Thanks to privatisation bins are still emptied here; post is delivered; and hospitals still cleaned. Were it not for schools things would more or less be normal. Look at the airports - none of the forecast chaos.
Given that two million people aren't working today and we haven't noticed, one does wonder whether the bulk* of them actually do sod all every day.
* Hospital workers etc exempted.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 12:04
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"Given that two million people aren't working today and we haven't noticed, one does wonder whether the bulk* of them actually do sod all every day.
* Hospital workers etc exempted. "
+1
Last edited by: Skip on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 13:02
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I notice the BBC (a publicly funded body) are trying to make out the strike is an event as important as the Second Coming. Trains are running down here along with the buses and there are plenty of council vehicles on the road.
As both my Bil and Sil retired at 55 under the 85 year rule (she a teacher, he something in a council office) on extremely favourable terms I can fully understand why the conditions need to be altered, and PDQ.
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Nicole is a public employee, a paediatric community support nurse for an NHS trust,
She is not on strike, nor are any of her colleagues. She gets paid well now (never used to be the case) and will get a below average pension, to her, supporting her customer base comes first.
Those on strike, we can do without. make them redundant.
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>> Given that two million people aren't working today and we haven't noticed, one does wonder whether
>> the bulk* of them actually do sod all every day.
Impact of the strike? I had a nice easy run down to SE London then Brighton and back up to the Midlands today, not much traffic around at all. Specifically I stayed in top gear through the foot of the M11 at 8.30am, the western half of the M25 at 3pm and the M1 roadworks at 4pm.
There were several groups picketing outside various offices around London today, I ignored them as did most other motorists. Not much evidence of the general public supporting the strikers this time - compared to the last time the Royal Mail went out, when almost every passing vehicle would sound its horn.
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>> Given that two million people aren't working today and we haven't noticed
I certainly noticed. Children all over the place, rattling the bathroom doorhandle when a chap is trying to concentrate, thundering around like a herd of tittering buffalo, leaving the front door open, coming in every five minutes when one is trying to work... They should have been in school. But their jailers were out on strike.
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The BBC figures show something different. It isn't as clear cut:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15925017
I also don't see why public sector pensions should be ravaged and screwed up like private sector ones were. Private sector ones need to be on the same footing. Gordon Brown started the mess by taxing pensions funds and causing them to collapse. The better off should contribute more so that the less well off who cannot afford to contribute massive amounts have a basic reasonable standard of living in return for working for 40 odd years.
Public sector workers have traditionally been paid less and in return they get better pensions. If they are no longer going to have that benefit then why should they defer better wages? The average public sector wage has also risen as the low paid jobs have been farmed out to the likes of serco. If you read how much the boss of Serco gets paid you'd be physically sick.
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Rog,
I know who writes that Anna Raccoon stuff. She's articulate and clever but has, shall we say, her own view of the world.
The spread of defibrilators and their use by trained staff is widespread in public buildings. They're in railway stations. shopping malls, leisure centres etc etc. Rapid use of a defibrilator saves lives*. Technology means that something that once required a doctor or nurse can be used by nearly anybody - connect it up and do what its voice prompts tell you. Last time I phoned the London Ambulance Service it took two minutes to get through and three more to get the operator to understand the name of the major London thoroughfare where the casualty was located. A cardiac patient can die in that time.
*It may of course be that a clever sales/publicity pitch has lodged this idea in the public mind and that the truth is more opaque. But the public and the coronial service have taken it on board.
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I wonder if those on strike for their pensions realise they'll lose one days entitlement to their pension for each day they're on strike?
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Can't begin to explain why but all of this just makes me think of this guy....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HVACPv_KFw&feature=related
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>>>Rapid use of a defibrilator saves lives*. Technology means that something that once required a doctor or nurse can be used by nearly anybody - connect it up and do what its voice prompts tell you. Last time I phoned the London Ambulance Service it took two minutes to get through and three more to get the operator to understand the name of the major London thoroughfare where the casualty was located. A cardiac patient can die in that time.
"Time is myocardium (heart muscle)" ~ medical quote.
As a rough guide, every minute between someone's heart stopping pumping blood and the application of the paddles means a 10% lower chance of resuscitating them successfully.
In the old days of ambulances racing collapsed patients straight to hospital without using defibrillation, the success rate of resuscitation in A&E was...... virtually nil.
Basically if the ambulance crew, or passers-by with the mall/sports centre defib haven't got the patient's heart started then there is little (but not zero) chance of a hospital helping.
Hypothermic patients have longer before the brain/heart are irrevocably ruined so sometimes they do better.
"You're not dead until you are warm and dead" ~ medical quote no. 2.
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Thanks Lygonos. So the need for these things is very real indeed. I just a had a slight doubt about whether commercial/charitable pressure had 'upped the ante'.
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2 drugs are known to improve survival during resuscitation - oxygen and electricity.
Oxygen stops the brain and heart dying, electricity kicks the heart out of a fatal rhythm.
Everything else, except in a few circumstances, is fairly unhelpful.
I've seen guys talking one minute and suddenly roll their eyes back, with their ECG traces showing fatal heart rhythms - almost 100% of the time they pop back to life with 200 joules across the heart if they are kind enough to do it on the ward.
Equally I've seen plenty of folk fail to respond to extended resuscitation efforts where the same event happened but it took 10+ minutes to get them to A&E.
Defibrillation is very rarely needed but when it can be applied fast it is spectacular.
I'm generally a big cynic of charities but the BHF spend a lot of their money promoting defibrillation and educating GPs/health professionals/anyone who wants to learn for this very reason.
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..."You're not dead until you are warm and dead" ~ medical quote no. 2...
Ah, that helps explain a conversation I had with the cox of a lifeboat - I didn't grasp his point at the time.
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The Government has determined that the amount needed to live is £137.75 for a single person and £209.70 for a couple and anybody whose State Retirement Pension does not reach those amounts may, in the absence of any other income, claim Tax Credits. I do not think the rich should subsidise the poorer as they are already paying large amounts of Income Tax and NI into the pot of money the Government has. I worked for 53 years and have an adequate pension which I have earned and don't plan to share around. I do donate to charities at this time of year but that isn't the same thing I know
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You try living on £137 a week. I am single living at home and even if I cut out the few luxuries I do have I would struggle. With the average rent at least £400 a month where the hell do the government get these figures from?
My sister lives in a rent flat, it is one bedroom and is on £30k a year, she struggles although I suspect that is because she still spends quite a bit on socialising.
If I had to live of that I would just have done with and live in the back of a Transit van.
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Dont get yourself in a lather Rattle, there are additional benefits that the elderly can claim to boost their income, that is only the basic figure that everyone gets - millionaires included - so the figure needs to be kept down and its universally claimed, they then top it up on means tested extras.
Pension credits and social housing can help the worst off although im sure the housing issue is affected by local situations.
The bigger scandal isnt the amount a basic pensioner has to live on but that many of them arent made aware of what they are entitled to claim so they can be more comfortable - one suspects the government would rather the elderly freeze to death than claim the money thats there for them.
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Stu,
The basic figure for everyone including millionaires is, I think, a bit lower - £102.15. Those without other income are topped up to the Pension Credit levels you mention.
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Does that include an adjustment for social housing rents, council tax reductions etc?
Its actually far more complex than it first appears.
There is a website, one that calculates benefits across the board, which may give a clearer indiction of the range of things available to someone with just the state pension income, might be worth posing as a poor pensioner, see what it says you could actually get.
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>>
>> The bigger scandal isnt the amount a basic pensioner has to live on but that
>> many of them arent made aware of what they are entitled to claim so they
>> can be more comfortable - one suspects the government would rather the elderly freeze to
>> death than claim the money thats there for them.
>>
Up to a point; there is still a substantial number of pensioners who think it demeaning to claim benefits and for that reason, don't bother even though they may be fully aware of their entitlement.
Unfortunately the benefit gained by the government is taken up by the workshy crooks who screw the system for what they can get. However much we may deplore means testing it's really the only surefire way to help everyone get what they're entitled to, and prevent the scroungers from getting more than.
Back to the impact.... I have discovered today that all the mimsing drivers on the Swansea-Port Talbot section of the M4 are in fact public employees. A blissfully peaceful cruise on the limiter all the way through that district this morning, refreshing change from the usual carp.
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>> You try living on £137 a week
Better than JSA, which is (I think) £67.50.
As Stu says, there are many other top-up benefits available - housing, council tax, tax credits etc. No-one should be going cold or hungry, even if there isn't any left over for updating wardrobes or appliances, or going out.
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But that depends how they list their priorities in order of importance. Going out is the first priority for some.
There was a feature on The One Show where Edwina Curry had ruffled a few feathers by suggesting that no one should be starving in this country. She was invited to a single mothers home who had intimated that her family were on the bread line. Bounding around the kitchen was a large dog and affixed to the chimney breast was a large flat screen tv. Edwina stated that the visit only corroborated her earlier statement.
The lady was invited to the studio where she stated that she was appalled by Edwina's comments but then went on to say that she wouldn't do a job she didn't want to do.
And there in lies the crux of the matter. The welfare system allows its beneficiaries to pick and choose. I was under the misapprehension that you would do anything to put bread on the table until something better came along.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 20:27
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Impact of the strike?
Well now the day is done, no impact.
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Impact of any of us ever having existed a few years after we're dead - not much.
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...Impact of any of us ever having existed a few years after we're dead - not much...
Impact of any of us existing while we are alive - not much.
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I was in the next County's County Town today - there was a distinct lack of people wandering around in their Council issue fleeces, certainly no queues at the usual sandwich shop, I imagine the impact on the town's shops (who earn a meagre crust I would expect) might have been pretty bad.
There was an interview on the local news with some woman who runs a health board in the South of the country who seemed to agree with the striker's cause and thanked the union for their co-operation. Seems the only people that suffered in her little world were people who were unable to have their routine operations and hospital appointments cancelled, being the public no doubt mattered very little to her, and the trust probably saved a few grand in wages for the day.
My God-daughter turned up for work at her local school, the caretaker was still in bed snoring his fat head off, so she had to hang around to wait for him to wake up. She's not in an union.
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 20:54
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Best not to dwell too long on the futility of the human condition. Hard place to get back from if you allow yourself to go through that door.
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I know, s'pose I've done enough of that.
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You surprise me Rats. Not enough to struggle to pay for all those concerts you've attended then.
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Quite amazed this morning at about 0730 when the binmen turned up. They do the general waste and another 2 trucks arrive during the day to do green and bottles.......neither of them arrived.
Traffic seemed pretty bad today, one road I use most mornings was very busy and slow....crept the full length at about 15 mph in a long line of traffic. It could have been a funeral ahead, though.....if the cemeteries were open for business !
Ted
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I am glad our waste gets collected on Tuesdays! The black bin only gets collected every two weeks and was nearly full. The larger green bin (garden and food waste) being bigger could have last a lot lot longer (apart from there being food in it of course).
I'm still in partial agreement with Clarkson.
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>> www.digitalspy.co.uk/showbiz/news/a353774/jeremy-clarkson-public-sector-strikers-should-be-shot.html
Yeah, I was watching that. Quite funny, although after the suicide comments I guessed an apology might be on the cards - not from Clarkson though :)
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If anyone here is unhappy with their public sector pension, um, er, could I have it please if you don't want it?
Just asking like...
:-)
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I think the Piers Moron one was a bit OTT as well, I think the presenter, Matt Beige (??) might be in the pooh over that as well. I don't normally watch that programme but when I saw JC's boat race I couldn't resist it. Hang on though, isn't the Beeb a public body and Clarkson works for them.....?
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Ok, a different viewpoint and , as usual from me when it comes to politics, very simplistic.
In your household income, when things get tight you do away with the luxuries, then you might check what are necessities, you might see if you can get things cheaper and eventually you realise you need to count every penny.
I have no "side" either way with the strike but what I see is a country that is falling apart due to the actions of banking and financial "industry", endless billions being wasted on foreign aid, EU grants, farming subsidies, immigrant benefits, Human Rights Laws etc etc - the list is endless.
Once the govt have tackled all these, then by all means start cracking down on the public service costs but I think there has been some tremedous spin put out by this current govt about why we all need to solve the country's crisis "together". But bear in mind that making folk put more into pensions means less is being spent on the high st trying to revive our economy.
Once I see a politician, especially a member of the cabinet, be in the slightest tiniest teensiest way inconvenienced and suffering due to Govt actions, then I will sit up and take notice.
In any workplaces, a good boss is someone who won't ask his staff to do something he won't do himself so what measures are they going to introduce that will affect them in their pocket, their families and their monthly income? What will they do to prevent the rich people who can afford to pay their accountants enough to avoid them paying tax?
I cannot sit and listen to govt ministers talking about the affects on households when they wouldn't know the price of a loaf of bread, never had to bother sitting comparing privatised utility tarrifs to see whats cheapest and never had to wonder how their next paypacket is going to last.
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When it comes to final salary pensions for public sector workers (which are not really fully financed by the workers) I can see how the current pensions cannot be sustained. I'll leave it at that.
In the private sector, we already have to work longer and some of us have had final salary pension schemes closed.
A lot of people wouldn't know the price of a load of bread at the moment or the cost of a litre of semi skimmed goats milk.... I for example do the bulk of shopping so my other half wouldn't know the actual costs.
Knowing the poo might hit the fan in the near future.... (and other reasons) we downsized house to a 3 bed in 2009. Well we actually bought this one in 2010. But being debt free is a nice feeling at the moment.
In an attempt to help other nations, we have two holidays booked for next year already. Greece.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 23:36
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>> In any workplaces, a good boss is someone who won't ask his staff to do something he
>> won't do himself so what measures are they going to introduce that will affect them in their
>> pocket, their families and their monthly income?
Don't forget Cameron was a millionaire before becoming leader of the conservatives. I believe Nick Clegg is from a more privileged background and richer still.
The problems have been brewing for years - before the current government took office for sure. And someone will then say how its the banking sector to blame... probably. But when times were good they generate billions of tax. Damned either way.
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Thinking about this pension problem for public sector workers, the better approach would have been consolation and then ask them what they wanted (majority vote):
- Work longer, pay a bit more, get a bigger pension
- Work longer, pay the same, get the same pension (ish) - note I said work longer
- Work the same length of time, pay more and get the same/equivalent pension
- Work the same length of time, pay the same and get a smaller pension
Remember on average we are living longer.
Personally I don't want to pay my taxes for a public sector worker to retire early on full pension! Some like BobbyG might? Greece had that as an option and look where they are. But these pension schemes do not have a pension fund that pays for them. It's paid for by current tax and NI contributions. I suppose it's not all risked and invested on the volatile markets.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 30 Nov 11 at 23:50
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Not sure of the legality of this but this basically happened to many in the private sector... have the unions shot themselves in the foot. Only just thought of this...
Many private pensions with final salary schemes shut. Ours has shut for future accrual or whatever it's called. We had to either agree to switch to a deferred benefit pension or basically agree we resigned.
So could HMG do a similar thing? Change contractual agreement for pensions with a notice period. Private firms have done this legally.
I suppose the Union members might try to call their bluff. But in this economic environment would you risk resigning automatically if you disagreed? I might email Cameron with my idea.
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Sorry this is me thinking out loud in the forum....
If the government want to change pensions (and other conditions) can they not change contracts for new employees? So if you put people on notice for change of conditions (or whatever it is called) to change pensions, what option do you have really?
For those in the private sector you can take off and work for somewhere else.
If you are a nurse, teacher, etc.... if they force you to resign or accept the new conditions/pension... what can you really do? Resign. And then get a job as a nurse elsewhere on the new contractual terms.
I am starting to think the government are going to call the bluff of all of these. Especially as few can afford to resign. If you are told accept this or leave... how would you pay the mortgage?
I am obviously thinking about this a lot - I did when our final salary pension was changed to my detriment. I had two options. Accept or resign. So only really one option in this climate.
I wonder if the summer holidays are near and something happens to all contracts? 90 days notice etc.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 00:16
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On this train of thought we could change GP contracts. They cannot hold the country to ransom again. Maybe it will happen. One can only hope.
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Don't remember breaking out the Dick Turpin mask for a few years!
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You'll find this most apparent at the lower end of the earnings scale.
And it's not going to change as the government continues to suggest small pay rises to those earning under 21 grand while the rest are frozen.
In reality I imagine this is largely balanced by the very lowest earners simply having the government making up their pay with benefits/tax credits.
Higher up the scale I think you'll find lawyers, accountants, doctors earning a bit less than those who are self-employed privately.
Anyone know what is in line for MP pensions over the next few years - aren't they entitled to receive one after 8 years or so if they are subsequently ejected?
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>>Anyone know what is in line for MP pensions over the next few years - aren't they entitled to receive one after 8 years or so if they are subsequently ejected?
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/29/mps-pensions-reform-cuts
one opinion on it
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Quote from the Mail article linked by Iffy:
Mr Osborne also called for local pay deals which would mean state workers receiving different salaries in different parts of the country
Perhaps somebody needs to tell him that's already happened.
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Lots of strike stories doing the rounds of the offices today, Bromp?
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>> Perhaps somebody needs to tell him that's already happened. >>
Really? Perhaps you need to tell the unions not to oppose it then.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8924415/National-pay-deals-could-be-axed-Chancellor-warns.html
"However, unions claimed the proposal represented a move towards regional pay rates which would cut wages for many workers, a policy which they are certain to oppose."
"Brendan Barber, general secretary of the Trades Union Congress, accused Mr Osborne of escalating his “attack on public sector staff” with the pay cap and the plan for local variation in wages."
"Paul Kenny, leader of the GMB union, agreed: “The continuing squeeze on public sector pay will deepen the deflationary pressures. Proposals to cut public sector pay in already depressed regions will cut demand even further."
Last edited by: John H on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 10:40
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>> Really? Perhaps you need to tell the unions not to oppose it then.
Regional pay has been around for several years with odd results such as staff in Leeds being paid more than in Bradford.
This plan seems to be based on further salami slicing of the basic rate.
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Dear Mr. Cameron,
Please find below our suggestion for fixing the UK 's economy.
Instead of giving billions of pounds to banks that will squander the money on lavish parties and unearned bonuses, use the following plan.
You can call it the Patriotic Retirement Plan:
There are about 10 million people over 50 in the work force.
Pay them £1 million each severance for early retirement with the following stipulations:
1) They MUST retire.
Ten million job openings - unemployment fixed
2) They MUST buy a new British car.
Ten million cars ordered - Car Industry fixed
3) They MUST either buy a house or pay off their mortgage -
Housing Crisis fixed
4) They MUST send their kids to school/college/university -
Crime rate fixed
5) They MUST buy £100 WORTH of alcohol/tobacco a week .....
And there's your money back in duty/tax etc
It can't get any easier than that!
P.S. If more money is needed, have all members of parliament pay back their falsely claimed expenses and second home allowances
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Not my work but it made me smile....
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So Unison are thinking of suing Clarkson ...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15977813
... his comments may be in bad taste though clearly they need to be seen as a humerous way of expressing an opinion rather than something he would genuinely advocate.
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...So Unison are thinking of suing Clarkson...
Reminds me of the MP who wanted to ban Tom and Jerry because it was too violent.
Clarkson is a caricature of himself, I expect he finds it tiring - but lucrative - living up to the image.
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Ref the Patriotic Retirement Plan:
It ranks with John Timpson's more modest solution in his DT column:
Simply pay £400 per month to every single adult citizen. No means test, no tax, no requirement to seek work.
Then abolish all other state benefits and pensions, and close down the relevant ministries.
The PRP is really only a human scrappage scheme - that worked, didn't it?
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 13:01
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Impact of the public sector strike - rtj70
