www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15526719
I admit, I didnt see that coming.
Sure, its a publicity stunt for Papandreou, but he also knows the result already, I think public support is pretty well set and when that result is in, its going to really rather annoy the Euro supporters.
Somebody is either walking away from the Euro or is looking for a bigger stick with which to hit the germans, which I dont think for one minute they will tolerate at this stage.
It just gets more and more interesting.
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Sabre rattling - I doubt it (the referendum) will happen.
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MMM! Looks as though it might, against all the odds and common sense. They are being offered a squillion Euros AND half their debt written off and they think that needs a referendum!
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From the average Greek worker's point of view they are signing up to years of austerity because Germany demands it
They will vote no.
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Love it, what a shambles.
50% write off of debts, nice if you can get it...didn't we do a bit of that a few years ago IIRC, that was third world debt too i recall.
Not to worry chaps, the hard working taxpayers of europe have still got some pocket money left, we can't be taking enough from them, they'll pay the shortfall...again, and they'll be doing it again soon for Spain or Ireland.
Another couple of years the various differing governments will have elections and the new lot will blame the last lot as always, and the EU unelected state will be stronger and larger and still soaking up ever more borrowed money to feed it's desire for power.
It's a merry go round and you can't get off cos you're leaders are addicted and hoping for their place at the unelected table of plenty in time.
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Part of the problem is the Greek national sport of tax evasion. If they could collect what they are owed and some arrears things would be a lot better. I have heard it rumoured that they are still suffering from their cost of laying on the Olympic Games - a warning shot across the bows for London I think!
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You're right about tax avoidance. The austerity plans kept talking of cuts but the ECB wanting evidence they were going to bring in the taxes. Without the money coming in they will never pay off the debt. Well they might not anyway.
They should probably introduce a PAYE system which would get rid of some of the avoidance. But if the rich don't pay taxes you can see why everyone else will avoid paying too. There are some that say the very rich have all been leaving recently (e.g. to London) because they know they can't continue avoiding paying taxes.
In response to: "From the average Greek worker's point of view they are signing up to years of austerity because Germany demands it". You can't go blaming Germany for demanding austerity measures in return. It's Greece's fault they are in this mess.
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I think they SHOULD vote against it.
Why?
Because it gives the EC an excuse not to bail them out.
Sure all the Greek banks will go bust. And a few French ones.
Then the Greeks will discover with an 8.7^ budget deficit - less any interest and debt repayments ,,, they need to have an austerity program anyway.
And of course no-one in their right minds will lend them any more money.
And if they leave the Euro, the new Drachma will probably collapse like a stone..(great for exports.. bad for their imports..Rebalance the economy)
Could be very interesting...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 16:26
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>>"From the average Greek worker's point of view they are signing up to years of austerity because Germany demands it". You can't go blaming Germany for demanding austerity measures in return. It's Greece's fault they are in this mess.<<
Well, in fairness you cant, but in reality the Greek people already are, they suffer from that socialist ideology that money appears out of thin air at will and that their only game in life is to spend, not generate wealth.
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they suffer from that socialist ideology that money appears out of thin air at will and that
>> their only game in life is to spend, not generate wealth.
>>
Precisely, bribing voters with money borrowed in their names for their children to pay back.
Much better to promise the earth for free, then deliver it whilst creaming off the top yerself, and then get someone else's children to pay it back.
That's the true result of modern socialism.
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"Much better to promise the earth for free, then deliver it whilst creaming off the top yerself, and then get someone else's children to pay it back."
That to many would seem to be the definition of capitalism as it has been played out over the past couple of decades
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Capitalists and socialists are cut from the same cloth, its just the socialists pretend they arent that which they obviously are. The one is brazen, one is deceitful, neither especially attractive.
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I wasn't blaming Germany but from what I hear a lot Greeks are. Asking the Greeks to vote for years of austerity is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. They will vote no and hope something better will turn up.
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I guess, for a country like Greece, better to burn the house down on their own terms than starve under 'German' rule, I think that may be the feeling, right of wrong. I think they have more of an emotional connection to who rules them and Germany is a pill they arent willing to swallow.
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A fairly accurate assessment I think FoR
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>> A fairly accurate assessment I think FoR
Quite. It's interesting how the Germans have finally got back what they lost in 1944.
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I dont think Hilter intended the Reichsbank to be in hock to the Bank of Athens
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To be fair to the greeks, if it was our public sector, under the Euro, taking cuts administered from Germany, Im quite sure anti-german sentiment would soon rise up, even though most germans today abhor Nazism and have no time for events that happened before most of them were born.
Ive often thought anti-german feeling is more a jelousy about how the german people of today have come back to a position of power through prudent behaviour and restraint, essentially by 'being german'.
Its much like my brother-in-law who spends money like theres no tomorrow, cant get credit and is always getting himself in difficulty. He looks at my his sister who has a nice car, that she can afford, its manageable to run, she has money in the bank and nobody banging on the door asking for money. He earns about 30% more than her, but it is he who is jelous of her. Im sure he must have greek blood...
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>> Ive often thought anti-german feeling is more a jelousy about how the german people of
>> today have come back to a position of power through prudent behaviour and restraint,
>> essentially by 'being german'.
There were many who believed the cost of German re-unification would be too costly for Germany. They are stronger than ever again financially. So if Germany could manage that then there are few excuses for other nations.
A lot of the problems for Greece stems from their culture and laid back attitude. Something I like. They should just never have joined the Euro! It must be hard to have cuts imposed by the ECB etc.
What I find surprising is the words being used about the collapse of the Euro as a project. The rules say you can never leave once you join. Now that was stupid. There should have always been a planned exit strategy. And Greece should have been following it already.
Of course there are some who say the country that should leave the Euro is Germany because they are such an economic powerhouse.
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Examples of why it's more than the Greek elite avoiding tax paying is to blame:
- Greek civil servants could retire on a pension in their fifties... how is that sustainable?
- Taxes on new build housing is often avoided because the tax is payable when the house is complete. And they deliberately never complete them. Anyone else notice the number of Greek properties with the metal from the reinforced concrete sticking out?
- There are more Porsches in Greece than taxpayers declaring 50,000 euro incomes. And the city of Larisa, capital of the agricultural region of Thessaly with 250,000 inhabitants, has more Porsches per head of the population than New York or London.
Lets hope it all works out okay for everyone.
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What's a Grecian Urn?
(somebody had to...)
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>> What's a Grecian Urn?
>> (somebody had to...)
Beware of Greeks bearing requests for credit...
(Someone else had to)
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The EU subsidises tobacco production. In particular Greece gets money for such low quality tobacco that it has to be sent to Africa to entrap new smokers into the habit. Thus Europe is spending money trying to stop people people smoking and paying money to get people outside Europe to take it up!
"For many years tobacco was the most heavily subsidised crop per hectare. In 2007, tobacco growers in the EU, based mainly in Italy and Greece, received a subsidy of €335.5 million.
I wonder where all that went?
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>> I wonder where all that went?
BMW/MB/Audi showrooms?
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In the course of my research I found that it is actually Porsche, another nice shiny German trophy car!
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>> In the course of my research I found that it is actually Porsche, another nice
>> shiny German trophy car!
>>
Well done M, i quite forgot about those, hardly the usual towing vehicle for a cart full of olives, or tobacco leaves..;)
Who needs fiction when the reality of EU lunacy is comedy in waves.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 17:55
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Further wide ranging research and 2 G+ts produced this
www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/49503
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See my post above about Porsches :-)
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Sorry! I can't even see my G+T never mind a post!
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"Quite. It's interesting how the Germans have finally got back what they lost in 1944"
Well they haven't and don't want it back. It's just that popular opinion in Greece will twist the facts and blame the Germans rather than accepting that they the Greeks are in any way to blame for their own misfortune
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>> "Quite. It's interesting how the Germans have finally got back what they lost in 1944"
>>
>> Well they haven't and don't want it back. It's just that popular opinion in Greece
>> will twist the facts and blame the Germans rather than accepting that they the Greeks
>> are in any way to blame for their own misfortune
Nothing to do with blaming the Germans! The moment fiscal unity comes (and it will) then Greek spending will only be done with the permission of the Germans. No taxation without representation, didn't they say?
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I wouldn't gloat to much about the Greek situation .Remember when the IMF has to bail us out under Norman Lemont.
Our cuts are going far to quick and this government is obsessed with proving a point.
Germany has done well out of the Euro.The Greeks have to learn to live within their means,like all of us.
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IMF bailed out the UK 1976 - Desmond Healey (Labour) Shock Horror Labour Bankrupts Country !
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Desmond?
He ran a shabeen behind a barbers in Brixton as well?
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Was he related to Denis then :-) A bit like that character having close relationship with Liam Fox.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 18:39
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Desmond I actually typed Desmond ! The shame of it....hangs eyebrows in shame !
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Have you seen the dementia thread? Sorry that's not really funny is it.... who knows what the future has for us.
I'd hoped to go somewhere like Greece. Lets hope they sort themselves out. Go bankrupt/default or not. Seems this is dragging on.
Surely the world won't end if this happens. More of a blip when Italy default though.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 18:55
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Default and leave the Euro looks like the least bad option
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But how bad will that be for (a) Greece, (b) the Euro and (c) Britain? And what about the impact on say Italy and therefore (b) and (c) again.
Come on and sort it out. I want to book a Greek holiday! Selfish people wanting a referendum. Tch. If they go bust now I might still be able to go.
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>> I wouldn't gloat to much about the Greek situation .Remember when the IMF has to
>> bail us out under Norman Lemont.
No, tell us about it? I don't believe it ever happened.
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Mapmaker , you seem to have an inability to read my posts. I never said that the its nothing to do with blaming the Germans, indeed I said the exact opposite. That's exactly what the Greeks will do, albeit wrongly.
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>> Mapmaker , you seem to have an inability to read my posts.
Have I done it elsewhere? Bemused...
>> I never said
>> that the its nothing to do with blaming the Germans, indeed I said the exact
>> opposite. That's exactly what the Greeks will do, albeit wrongly.
I accept I cannot be certain what you mean here, though I think I agree.
Anyway, Greece cannot solve its problems by leaving the Euro BECAUSE it's debts are denominated in Euros. It will still owe Euros, and they will be even more expensive Euros as the Drachma tanks. The problem can only be solved by all the other countries leaving the Euro and leaving just the Greeks (and Italians, Irish, Portuguese, Spaniards, French (?))with it. Alternatively, default...
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And if they could leave the Euro... with their debt they cannot afford to pay the civil servants. So it all goes from bad to worse anyway.
Damned either way. Their own doing. I am only annoyed because I wanted to go to Greece in May and at the moment won't risk booking!
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Didn't the bankers cause these problems in the first place in the States.
Everybody seem to hate Gordon Brown but his quick action stopped the banks collapsing in the UK.
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He also said no more boom and bust, so didnt plan for the bust, hence we are in the position we are in.
It was also his government that failed to regulate the banks in the first place.
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AFTER he had sold half our gold reserves @ $35 a ounce! Prudence My sit upon No wonder he isn't seen in the House much these days
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>> AFTER he had sold half our gold reserves @ $35 a ounce! Prudence My sit
>> upon No wonder he isn't seen in the House much these days
He sold it at pretty much the rate it had been bumping along at for a decade or more. It took off after 09/11 - if he'd seen that coming events might have been different.
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>> He sold it at pretty much the rate it had been bumping along at for
>> a decade or more. It took off after 09/11 - if he'd seen that coming
>> events might have been different.
>>
He sold it at virtually $250/oz.. the lowest price for two decades...Not helped by announcing it first...
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And where is Cameron and Osborne travelling the globe looking inportant.{sorry there in the UK for now.}
Have you noticed Cameron can't say a word withour a piece of paper in his hand.All that Eton education and can't remember a sentence.>:)
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>> AFTER he had sold half our gold reserves @ $35 a ounce! Prudence My sit
>> upon No wonder he isn't seen in the House much these days
Gold is long term, governments are short term - Brown wouldn't have had the time to watch it rise in value, but you'd think he could have left it in the vaults, as he was always harping on about he cared about the future of our country.
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what good does it do in the vaults? you can only profit from it when you sell it.
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>> what good does it do in the vaults? you can only profit from it when
>> you sell it.
Far better to have it remain in the vaults valued at $1800 an ounce. Or am I missing something?
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Yeah, cos in 15 years time it could be worth 35 dollars an once again. And anyway, until you sell it, its got no value, its just taking up space.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 1 Nov 11 at 22:54
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>>
>> And anyway, until you sell it, its got no value, its just taking up space.
>>
>>
The point of a gold reserve is that you don't sell it, or only a little bit sometimes and buy it back again.
It gives value, in terms of imparting stability, precisely because it does just sit taking up space.
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The reliance on gold in the vaults is a very old and outdated method of financial stability. It went out the window as soon as we printed more notes than gold to back it up, and that was a large number of years ago.
It may have had stability value 150 years ago, but no longer. The net worth of a country far exceeds the value of any gold anyone can hold.
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>> The reliance on gold in the vaults is a very old and outdated method of
>> financial stability. It went out the window as soon as we printed more notes than
>> gold to back it up, and that was a large number of years ago.
It is precisely because it is old that it still works. It can't be printed or destroyed and there is only a finite amount of it, therefore it keeps it's value in times of instability.
>> It may have had stability value 150 years ago, but no longer. The net worth
>> of a country far exceeds the value of any gold anyone can hold.
So why are countries like China buying it, even at current prices?
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>> So why are countries like China buying it, even at current prices?
Not to stash in vaults. It has many desirable electronic and engineering (ie defence) properties.
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People want jobs decent homes and healthcare in the long term we are all dead.
We can blame all our problems on Gordon Brown but do you really trust this lot?
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>> We can blame all our problems on Gordon Brown but do you really trust this
>> lot?
I don't trust any politician, and the older you get the more cynical you become. Pretty soon I'll be as bad as some of the miserable old gits on here.
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"AFTER he had sold half our gold reserves @ $35 a ounce! Prudence My sit upon No wonder he isn't seen in the House much these days"
Actually a quick google reveals that it was was sold for between $256 and $296 an ounce.
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You are correct and I am wrong. Even at those prices it doesn't look like an inspired move!
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Didn't prove to be but has been pointed out the gold price was actually fairly static for 22 years between 1982 and 2004 at around $350 to $400 per ounce it wasn't as outlandish a decision as often portrayed.
In fact investing such a large amount of the country's wealth in a non interest bearing asset for over 2 decades might well be open to criticism if it wasn't for recent history.
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>> Didn't the bankers cause these problems in the first place in the States.
>>
>> Everybody seem to hate Gordon Brown but his quick action stopped the banks collapsing in
>> the UK.
Should have let the banks go to the wall like Iceland, who are now rising from the ashes (or should that be steam?). And blow Fred Goodwin's greedy head off. A bit harsh? No.
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>> Should have let the banks go to the wall like Iceland, who are now rising
>> from the ashes
Are they? Not paid thier debts yet, they are rising nowhere.
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>> Are they? Not paid thier debts yet, they are rising nowhere.
Compared to Ireland anyway
www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/icelands-economic-thaw-51518
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Leaving the banks go to the wall would have meant the Greek crisis looking like the teddy bears' picnic that it is not.
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>> Leaving the banks go to the wall would have meant the Greek crisis looking like
>> the teddy bears' picnic that it is not.
So be it. This whole thing stemmed from banks giving money to people to buy things they couldn't really afford.
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When you think of what the potential negatives of the Euro were... if you were at all risk adverse it was a non-starter. If they'd stuck by the rules for admission it would work. They cheated and let Greece cheat too.
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I can't believe Europe is going now with a begging bowl to China.The Chinese are not stupid they want payback time in the future.
Forget about persecution of the Monks in Tibet which should be a independent country.There is no free internet in China.The cheats are the people running the show.
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Dutchie,
Im suprised that you are suprised, the rise of China is hardly undocumented and no suprise given they ( rightly or wrongly ) dont weigh themselves down with legislation and irritating things like human rights.
As and when my son starts learning languages at school, id be encouraging him to learn chinese, forget the 'holiday' languages.
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Another corker from Matt in the Telegraph*
goo.gl/BKXzx
*(which should really be renamed the Middletongraph, I've lost count of the pictures recently of the Duchess of Cambridge and her sister).
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It looks as though the French dwarf and the German hausfrau have successfully crushed the Greeks underfoot.
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It's their own fault and no-one else's. Twenty years of national vanity on a cataclysmic scale. BBC were reporting that ministers and their supporters in Greece were being given Army appointments, I think we may see the Generals back.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 3 Nov 11 at 19:52
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Not really -it was the EUSSR which fudged the entry qualifications to allow Greece in the "club".
The Greeks saw someone bearing gifts and reacted accordingly!
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Greed and vanity. The UK could have gone in on the same basis, but it chose not to.
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>> Twenty years of national vanity on a cataclysmic scale.
Sounds a bit like us. Except in our case it would be more like 200 years. Or even more actually.
I can sort of hear us telling the Greeks that 'we are considerably richer than YOW'. But there are more and more nations we can't say it to...
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We've had more practice at being bankrupt. :-)
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I too am fed up with 1/5th of the front page being taken up with irrelevant pictures of assorted females In the last few weeks we have had Zara Philips and a horse, because her husband was groping an ex girl friend in NZ; a picture of an Italian waitress who had not been left a tip by D Cameron, a number of off topic pictures of the pleasant Duchess of Cambridge and so it goes on. It is getting off message and a waste of space that should be used for news!
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>> space that should be
>> used for news!
>>
Like more from the Greek front.
He's called off the referendum - at least that's today's late news. It's hard to take them seriously. Imagine if Dave had conceded our referendum on EU membership, then the next day changed his mind and cancelled it.
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Don't be surprised For they are rightly don't weigh themselves with human rights.Shame for China.
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Much like the US then
;-)
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>> Shame for China.
I too hope European finances implode. And if China could have helped us short term - who cares? Maybe those with mortgages?
I assume Dutchie is debt free? This could all go very sour and make life for many difficult if not impossible.
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I too hope European finances implode.
Believe me you won't. The knock on effect for the UK would be pretty grim.
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People are worrying about the wrong things.
If greece defaults (and they probably will) the world finances can cope, quite easily. Lets be honest the creditors wont see money back in this lifetime even if they dont.
Kick them out of the Euro? not a problem, they have defaulted on their Euro debts anyway, so they can go back to the drachma. Kick them out of the EU? yes why not it would not effect the workings of the EU one jot.
So what would happen. Civil unrest, Terrorism, possible war with Turkey, lots of very unpleasant and unsettling things. You have to remember, the EU is as much about preventing wars as it is about joint economic pain.
What we really need is for Greece to default, be thrown out of the Euro, ejected from the EU and a Military Coup (with tacit secret nato approval) and a harsh military crackdown on the population.
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If you could limit the problem to Greece then not to much to worry about but it won't stop there. Italy and Spain could well end up defaulting too follow and a massive banking collapse would follow which could well include major UK banks. Massive rise in the cost of borrowing and a recession that will last for years. even a complete economic depression.
Such a level of economic disaster could well lead to political turmoil throughout Europe
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 4 Nov 11 at 08:53
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Im not convinced Merkel will start rolling tanks into Poland is they leave the EU, same goes for any member state.
Being part of an organisation doesnt stop wars, its folly to make such an assumption. People choose to start wars and these days most european countries are run by fairly mild mannered folk.
What we have these days are wars by the big club on individual nations to direct traffic the way they wish it to go. And we the peaceful EU bunch arent backwards about sending tanks in when we see fit.
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Nobody is going to start sending in tanks, least of all the Germans but I wouldn't bank on Europeans continuing to be mild mannered when they see their income and living standards slashed with little hope of recovery in the foreseeable future.
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Doesnt matter if people do take to the streets, one thing about the political elite these days is they couldnt care less what real people think as they sit on their guilded thrones of power.
Only when elections loom do they try and get 'in touch' with the little people.
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I think you probably have it the wrong way round. Democracies have a problem with handling economies when in decline. Effectively US and European economies have been in decline for the past 20 years but it is very difficult for democracies to reduce incomes and spending both individually and state. If they try to do so the government loses the next election. So they borrow - and borrow - and borrow. We now see the results and a major correction which is well overdue.
Non democratic countries like China don't have to worry unduly about the peoples expectations as long as they have the power to keep them in check.
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Democracy - morally right, economically iffy then? Theres always something :-)
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>> Democracy - morally right, economically iffy then? Theres always something :-)
Getting any sort of unpopular reform, even if necessary, passed and implemented is a problem for democracies. The coalition is trying to get the difficult stuff out of the way now and there's a fair chance that most of it will be implemented by the next elections. The voters minds will have moved on.
Economic change of the sort that will be required if western economies don't keep growing might take decades.
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Democracy - morally right, economically iffy then? Theres always something :-)
That's about the long and short of it.
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>> Non democratic countries like China don't have to worry unduly about the peoples expectations as
>> long as they have the power to keep them in check.
>>
The Chinese would have a MAJOR problem in a recession... Political unrest is bad enough when times are good. When they are bad...
Read:
ftalphaville.ft.com/
Five steps to financial crisis
Posted by Neil Hume on Nov 04 11:01. 7 comments | Share
The farce of the eurozone’s debt crisis is understandably captivating, but is an even bigger situation developing in China? Credit-fuelled gullibility lies at the heart of most bubbles, but such gullibility provides quality fodder for fraudulent schemes too. More…
The farce of the eurozone’s debt crisis is understandably captivating, but is an even bigger situation developing in China? ........ In this context, China’s newsflow is worrying indeed
continues on.
Very interesting..
Recession next year in Europe = possible trouble in China..
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Political unrest is bad enough when times are good. When they are bad...
you send in the tanks
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>> Only when elections loom do they try and get 'in touch' with the little people.
>>
Elections which can always be postponed due to a "National Emergency".
Cynical? Me? Whatever gives you that idea?
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"As I understand it, we will borrow money from a bank, to give to the IMF, who will give it to Greece, who will give it back to the same bank.
So the bank will keep it’s money, but we will owe it more.
Isn’t it great?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
(Not original by me.)
(Quote from a contributor to order-order com., to whom a hat-tip is due.)
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Greek Crisis - Zero
