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Sad to hear of his death - an eccentric, of that there is no doubt, certainly an influence on my generation - ToTP, Jim'll Fix it etc. Not my type of entertainer in reality, but certainly a one off and the country is a poorer place for his passing. I certainly enjoyed Jim'll Fix It as a kid.
Some friends of mine met him on a cruise (he was off duty !) and recalled he was a nice bloke with little or no of the luvviness that pervades the industry these days. He spotted them in a crowd years later in somewhere exotic and remembered them, and also followed up on a promise to visit them at the cafe they owned.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 9 Oct 12 at 10:24
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Never really liked him i`m afraid, couldn`t understanbd why (as somebody who self-confessed to hating kids) did so many kids programmes!!
Anyway, no ill-will Jim R.I.P
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Very sad news, had pneumonia recently, Sir Jimmy Savile btw.
Watchdog!
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I grew up with Jimmy 'fixing' things, part of my childhood TV viewing.
Sad news, although he had a good innings by all accounts.
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Bit of a sportsman too, he rode the Tour of Britain cycle race in the 50's and then became a professional wrestler.
Cycling Weekly interviewed him at my suggestion about three years ago after they asked on their forum for ideas on cycling personalities to feature.
I wonder if AC will contribute to this thread? ;-)
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One of those people I thought would go on for ever.
Watched a Louis Theroux (sp?) programme with him once - quite an odd bloke it appears, but one who holds many fond childhood memories for me.
I always smile when I look back at him sparking up a cuban with some poor kid sat on his lap dissapearing in a haze of smoke
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>> Sir Jimmy Savile btw.
Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile, OBE, KCSG actually.
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My father knew him in his cycling days, and was pretty scathing about the public persona. But he did a very great deal of good, and not just money, as I am reminded when I visit the local hospital at Stoke Mandeville.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8M7yTSZpZg
Wouldn't be allowed on a number of fronts these days !
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Legend has it that he invented the use of two turntables for DJing when he used to work at the Ritz in Manchester before he became manager there. but I think that is just legend, according to wiki it was a completely different club in Manchester he managed.
He did a lot of good for charity and I think that is what he would want to be remembered for.
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40m quid for Stoke Mandaville alone - the man deserves to be remembered well.
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I remember when we were kids laughing at the antics on Jim'll fix it!
Did loads of good as well.
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i loved the guy, he broke his back diggin coal during the war.....legend
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Part of my childhood as well, with Jim'll Fix It and TOTP. Then when I moved to Bracknell in the 80s, he was doing some (unpaid) work at nearby Broadmoor and I ran against him in a few local half-marathons. There are probably more glamorous ways to raise money than plodding round Bracknell housing estates.
Definitely eccentric/odd, but the world needs a few people like that.
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I couldn't bear Jimmy Savile, but I wasn't really his target audience. I always thought his public appearances, and almost everything he said, utterly detestable and false. His function in the media was to spread air-headed, reactionary behaviour and attitudes among the uncritical young, and he seems to have had some success at doing that.
But although I speak ill of the dead I don't dance on the graves of people who weren't monsters of cruelty and depravity. The ghastly Savile seems harmless now he's dead. I don't suppose he made the world any worse than it would have been anyway. And as many have pointed out he did some positive charity stuff, or lent himself to it. Not many people are all bad.
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Armel, maybe if he has floor mounted disco lights fitted to his grave you may want to dance to him?
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Npt even then zookeeper. Especially not to the sort of worthless bubblegum music the old villain pumped out so remorselessly.
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>> Npt even then zookeeper. Especially not to the sort of worthless bubblegum music the old
>> villain pumped out so remorselessly.
>>
Good point, Armel. Expect more TOTP reruns soon - I particularly want to see the bit where he had to announce "And at number 25, a song by the Dead Kennedies..."!
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Wasn't "too drunk to ****" was it? I would have to have seen that being bleeped out by the old beep.
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Armel, the guys still warm... a bit of respect then?
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A bit of respect for whom, zookeeper - Jimmy Savile or his elderly groupies and admirers? A public persona annoying, vacuous and slightly sinister, a crucial asset of the depraved recording industry, cynically foisted on silly teenagers by media bosses as a leading-edge DJ when he was already twice their age and an utter musical philistine and political reactionary... nothing much to respect there. Although I think even worse of the said teenagers for swallowing such poo.
But as I admitted, he did charity stuff and can't have been all bad. I would call that showing due respect.
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The beauty of a free society is that you can say if you don't like someone, death has nothing to do with it.
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Courtesy of Wiki
"He also sponsored medical students at the University of Leeds to perform undergraduate research in the LURE, donating over £60,000 every year. In 2010 the scheme was extended with a commitment of £500,000 over the following five years.
Savile was also well known for running marathons (many of them again for Phab, including their annual half marathon around Hyde Park). He completed the London Marathon in 2005, at the age of 79."
Puts my money raising efforts and physical state to shame! RIP a fine eccentric gentleman
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I will always remember him for his tireless fundraising efforts in the early 80's for the then, local-ish to me Stoke Mandeville Hospital. As well as working there as a volunteer porter for years, he raised £20m after storms damaged some of the buildings housing spinal injury patients.
His TV persona could be a bit irritating, but he was a man who did so much good, and more importantly, never seemed to seek the limelight or credit for doing so. A lesson many so-called "celebrities" today could learn from.
And Jim 'll Fix It was an iconic programme for kids of my generation.
From everything I've heard or read, Sir Jimmy was an all round good guy. Very sad news. RIP.
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I briefly interviewed Savile prior to a fund raising run.
Not the most pleasant and co-operative of people.
The other hacks present - who had done him more times than me - said it was his usual attitude.
They reckoned he meant no harm, just his way, and I'm sure that's right.
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"And now Showaddywaddy"
Go on you know you want to do a Jimmy Saville impersonation :-)
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First item on the BBC1 evening news.
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Very sadly, I think he was probably a very lonely chap who needed his public. Not very different to Benny Hill - who also seemed to need his mum a lot.
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He did more good then I will ever be able to so gets my vote.
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I don't know if he was lonely or just kept his private life private.
The Telegraph described him as 'a lifelong bachelor' which I understand to be a euphemism.
I don't recall any nasty stories.
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>>>The Telegraph described him as 'a lifelong bachelor' which I understand to be a euphemism.
>>>I don't recall any nasty stories.
The sign of a gentleman!?
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>> I don't know if he was lonely or just kept his private life private.
>>
>> The Telegraph described him as 'a lifelong bachelor' which I understand to be a euphemism.
The euphemism was 'confirmed bachelor' but I don't think it always stands. Mrs B and came have a long held theory that some folks are asexual; their response to the facts of life was 'yeuch'.
JS and Benny Hill might have been cases in point and I can think of a few guys I've worked with over the last 35 years who might fit the bill too.
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Ted Heath ? He was a "confirmed bachelor". I hate this innuendo thing. If he was gay well so what ?
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>> Ted Heath ? He was a "confirmed bachelor". I hate this innuendo thing. If he
>> was gay well so what ?
That's my point Rob; if he was gay so what? But equally the whole sex thing, which ever end he might potentially have batted from, might have been a closed book.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 29 Oct 11 at 20:50
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Trouble is some people see it as a threat. God knows why,
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But we are now living in a more tolerant, diverse and enlightened age than say 20 to 30 years ago.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 29 Oct 11 at 22:40
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>> But we are now living in a more tolerant, diverse and enlightened age than say
>> 20 to 30 years ago.
We like to think. Chances of an openly gay PM? Zilch, the tolerant, diverse and enlightened electorate would never vote for him. Or her.
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>>some folks are asexual; their response to the facts of life was 'yeuch'.
JS and Benny Hill might have been cases in point<<
Benny Hill certainly wasn't asexual, just unlucky where love was concerned ~
www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/apr/21/biography.features
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I didn't know about this, it's just shocked me.
I thought that these days there was an injection which prevented pneumonia for life, so why do we still hear of celebrities dying from it?
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he was 85 years old, there is no injection against that.
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That is a scary and sobering thought Zero.
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Scary? no. people are tending to forget we have a finite time on this earth, sure its getting a longer time, but 85 is still a good long one, (for a UK male). I would be happy to make that with some quality of life to near the end.
Sobering? not really either, not if you are aware of what a good innings is.
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When your father is 81, believe me that is a scary and sobering thought. He is fitter and healthier than i will ever be.
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The average life expectancy for a male in the Uk is 79, female 81.
Your father has had a good innings, but you need to face up to the fact that everything from here on is a bonus.
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That is not something which i wish to dwell on. He will outlive all his kids, I won't accept that he's on borrowed time now. Sorry if i'm stroppy about this, very tired as i said, but also that is one thing i cannot and will not contemplate.
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>> I thought that these days there was an injection which prevented pneumonia for life, so why
>> do we still hear of celebrities dying from it?
Not only celebrities die from pneumonia. The flu vaccine can help. There's not as far I am aware a vaccine that stops this for life though. Do tell more.
Sadly many around the world (including here) succumb to pneumonia. I wouldn't want to be in Libya before they rebuild their health service. At least they have the oil money which will be available again within the next 12 months if not sooner.
I for one think we are all on borrowed time... nobody knows when a tragic accident could end any of our lives. Which is why I plan for something other than this country before I am old. Mortgage went when I was 39. Saving now for a better life. This house can be sold when appropriate or will provide rental income for a bit.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 00:24
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I think when people get very old (e.g past 85) then it doesn't matter what medicines they are it gets hard to treat. My grandpa is constantly being treated for his chest infections and breathing problems (he went blue the other day) but the doctors say eventually his body won't respond to the treatment.
I am only 29 but I am well aware I could drop down dead at any minute, so I enjoy myself, at the same time I need to be sensible and make sure I don't retire in poverty in case I don't drop dead at 40.
That said I am still going to see as much as possible, just on a budget.
My mum told me yesterday they will sell the house before they get old and give me and my sister half the money so we can buy our own places. I pointed out with the changes of the welfare system by the time they get old (e.g 20+ years time) they will need every penny they can get if they want any sort of treatment.
My parents have been poor as much as I can remember, partly due to bad luck and poor financial planning (e.g buying Ladas!) but if they could sell this place and buy a much cheaper retirement flat, they could then enjoy their retirement, instead my dad is approaching 60 and is once again desperate for work.
However this is why I plan to try and get my own place within the next few years, and will encourage my sister do the same, that way my parents might be more inclined to sell up and enjoy their money.
The difference is my sister will probably get an M20 postcode I I will be lucky to get an M6.
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Pneumonia is often called the "old man's friend" because, left untreated, the sufferer often lapses into a state of reduced consciousness, slipping peacefully away in their sleep, giving a dignified end to a period of often considerable suffering. Many death certificates show pneumonia as the cause of death but there is often a more serious and untreatable underlying condition
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Nicely put CG - death becomes a release in the end.
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Not so sure, my grandpa smoked and drank all his life, ok he is very ill now but he is still alive and 91, and 92 in just a few months time.
However my granddad who I was very close to died at 79, a few weeks before he died he was place bets on his nearly learnt internet skills (this was 2005), booking hotels and doing all sorts of the net (he had never used a computer before this) and driving all across Wales. Two weeks later he was dead.
Ok in his case it was cancer, and the operation went wrong but he still died a few years too soon. He learnt to drive when he was 58, learnt how to use the internet well when he was 78, and no doubt if he was around now at 85 he would be on Facebook all day long and popping down to Microdirect to buy some RAM.
My uncle died at 55 of a heart attack and that as a massive shock for us all.
My experience is once you get older, you can sadly go very quickly without warning. Earlier this year my 91 year grandpa was telling me he is going to live to 100 and he was 100% positive about that, now it is looking very unlikely to make it past the year.
So make the most of your friends and relatives, because they can be gone much sooner than you expect.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 03:50
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Of course none of us want to contemplate the death of a parent but, looking at it from their point of view, I can't imagine anything sadder than outliving your children...
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>> That is not something which i wish to dwell on. He will outlive all his
>> kids, I won't accept that he's on borrowed time now.
And there lies the path to much pain and anguish at some time in the future.
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On the day you're born your death starts walking towards you. There are no exits from the road you're on and you can't turn back, you can only hope he is taking a leisurely stroll and not running.
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Indeed live life to the full and never leave your loved ones without telling them you love them, or on bad terms, you never know what may happen and todays goodbye could be the last you ever utter.
SWM went to visit a young friend with a very new baby in the week, 48 hours later her partner whom she was very happy with and the father of the baby, died suddenly and without warning.
Make sure you have left some provision for your dependents too, their lives have changed forever if you die.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 10:40
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......and make a will - the most important document for a relative in the event of death.
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...and make a will - the most important document for a relative in the event of death...
Unless you want your next of kin to inherit the lot, in which case there's no need to bother.
www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_family/family/who_can_inherit_if_there_is_no_will___the_rules_of_intestacy.htm
One benefit is the rules of intestacy are strict and cannot be successfully challenged.
No good if you want to divide it in various proportions among a surviving partner and children, or if you want to leave fifty quid to the cats' home.
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Have you ever dealt with the estate of someone who died intestate ? I speak from bitter experience. Even in a straightforward case and a person used to navigating the system can find it difficult especially with the internal rules of certain financial institutions.
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>> Have you ever dealt with the estate of someone who died intestate ?
Agree with Rob. Even if you want your assets to pass in intestate proportions a will gives you the chance to appoint someone you trust to adminster the estate.
One of my Uncles died intestate. His son had predeceased him (in tragic circumstances). He probably assumed his wife would get everything. Under the intestacy rules then in force the amount going to the widow was limited, with the excess going to his sister, my mother, who had far less need for it then the widow.
IIRC they were able to execute some sort of deed to 're-write' the intestacy in terms of the will the silly sod would have made had he'd got round to it. It took a long time to do, cost quite a bit and involved much chasing of the useless solicitor in who's hands the widow, with the best intentions, put the adminstration.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 13:23
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I would make a will but no point at the moment. The car isn't mine (FIAT still owns it), but I but my PCs are probably worth around £800, my business may have a small value (e.g the phone number) that might be worth a £2000, my tools are worth around £300 and my HIFI £600.
Not worth writing a will for is it. My sister will get the HIFI though, as I know she will appreciate it, I want all my hard drives destroying, I wouldn't want my parents reading stuff I have posted on here or facebook etc.
And I assume the car would have to be handed back to FIAT.
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>> I would make a will but no point at the moment.
There's no time too soon Rattie, and it doesn't need to cost a fortune by keeping Brief's in BMW's ;;-)
W H Smiths used to sell a DIY will pack, no doubt there are other cheaper methods which someone will hopefully point out, duly signed and witnessed it is an important document should the unthinkable happen, it's certainly better than nothing.
Most important thing is that all members of your family know your wishes at a time when they would be in turmoil.
edit, should be cheap for you to get some form of life insurance at your age, combined in pension maybe...if it pays out £10k in the event then that will bury you and sort your affairs out without causing your family hardship.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 13:38
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>>Not worth writing a will for is it. My sister will get the HIFI though,<<
Can you put me down for the Grado's when you go Rattle :)
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The Grado's sadly have a fault, they need rewiring and I can't get the cups off to rewire the cable.
Using a pair of Goldring DR150's now which will do until I get round to fixing the Grados.
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The Goldring NS1000's check out well for around £60
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I asked a solicitor about making a will.
The person I consulted specialises in wills.
Just as importantly, I know from recommendations of other lawyers that he's good at it.
When he heard of my wishes, he advised me against making a will, even though I was there to pay him to do it.
So at present I shall die intestate.
What I have done is told a couple of family members of the position, so they don't waste time looking for a will.
It's a matter for the individual, of course, and I don't rule out making a will in future, should my wishes change.
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Whatever's right for you - it's a process, there are costs and inconveniences involved, I nearly wrote one life policy off under these circumstances - they relented in the end but it could have been easier. I went out and bought a bike with the proceeds. I personally would never recommend it - especially in particular circumstances - as I say life lesson learnt.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 14:00
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>> The average life expectancy for a male in the Uk is 79, female 81.
>>
>>
That's expectancy at birth, isn't it?
It gets higher as you get older. Not many people are too bothered about their life expectancy at 0, 20, or perhaps even 30, 40, ?
But what's your life expectancy at 60, or 80?
I had a cousin who reached 99, his mother lived to 102. By that age his chance of reaching 100 was pretty high, but he didn't quite make it.
Another cousin is 94, still living independently and driving. If she doesn't reach 100 she will have died young. It's all relative.
I always smiled at the infantile joke of calling him Jimmy So-vile. No hard feelings though - eccentrics always earn their place on Earth, and he seems to have had a fair balance of good points.
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>> >> The average life expectancy for a male in the Uk is 79, female 81.
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> That's expectancy at birth, isn't it?
No that was the average age of death last year.
>> It gets higher as you get older.
Not faster than you age it doesn't
>>
>> But what's your life expectancy at 60,
Still 79
>>or 80?
you are in borrowed time.
>> I had a cousin who reached 99, his mother lived to 102. By that age
>> his chance of reaching 100 was pretty high
Nope - the older you get the less chance you have of making the next year,
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Your life expectancy increases as you get older - the more years you have survived the older you are likely to reach. One of the hazardous times is just after birth so the your life expectancy is consideralbly higher at 6 months old than it is at birth.
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I want to die young.
But not until I'm too old to care.
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>> Your life expectancy increases as you get older - the more years you have survived
>> the older you are likely to reach.
Simply not true, Age is not a statistical thing, age is a physical thing. The older you get the more chance you likely to meet a disease or ailment of the elderly.
One of the hazardous times is just after
>> birth so the your life expectancy is consideralbly higher at 6 months old than it
>> is at birth.
No the hazardous times are the first 48 hours. As such they are stripped from the average.
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Zero is just being mischievously literal, as he does.
Your life expectancy. in terms of years you have to go, decreases with age. The age at which you can expect to die increases.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 30 Oct 11 at 14:43
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>>Zero is just being mischievously literal
...or perhaps he isn't...
A man's life expectancy at 60 is most definitely not 79, other things being equal. He has avoided dying in his first 60 years so those risks are no longer there - increasing his total life expectancy.
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>> >>Zero is just being mischievously literal
>>
>> ...or perhaps he isn't...
>>
>> A man's life expectancy at 60 is most definitely not 79, other things being equal.
They are not equal tho. The chances of getting one of the getting old fatal diseases and problems increases the older you get. Its called increasing risk.
Can you not see that?
>> He has avoided dying in his first 60 years so those risks are no longer
>> there - increasing his total life expectancy.
>
The risks pre 60 are at their lowest, The risk increases the older you get. Dont argue with me, argue with the insurance companies who charge you more for life assurance when you get older. Why do they do that?
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>>Dont argue with me, argue with the insurance companies who charge you more for life assurance when you get older.
>> Why do they do that?
They also hit hard , very hard re travel insurance. Why do they do that ?
I just pay up and grimace.
Zero get your foreign travel in quick cos they will soon taget you if want to be insured.
Must go. It SWMBOs aunts funeral in the morn. Her aunt had an inings of 93 but her sister made 99.
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>>Dont argue with me, argue with the insurance companies who charge you more for life assurance when you get older. Why do they do that?
Because older people have less time to live than younger people, on average.
But I can assure you, as you must know intuitively, a 78 year old man is unlikely to die at 79.
His total life expectancy is considerably greater than 79. Because he no longer has all those opportunities to die at 1,2,3,4... etc. that contribute to the average of 79.
The life expectancy of a 75 year old man is about 86.
Talk to an actuary. I did, about a month ago.
www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-age
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>>The life expectancy of a 75 year old man is about 86.
>>Talk to an actuary. I did, about a month ago.
>>www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-age
I had better start pacing myself.
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>> >>Dont argue with me, argue with the insurance companies who charge you more for life
>> assurance when you get older. Why do they do that?
>>
>> Because older people have less time to live than younger people, on average.
>>
>> But I can assure you, as you must know intuitively, a 78 year old man
>> is unlikely to die at 79.
He is because he is already suffering the effects of disease and age related problems. not everyone suddenly drops dead at 79
>> His total life expectancy is considerably greater than 79. Because he no longer has all
>> those opportunities to die at 1,2,3,4... etc. that contribute to the average of 79.
>>
>> The life expectancy of a 75 year old man is about 86.
If he is in excellent health at 75. The risk of dying t 1,2,3,4,5,6, etc is considerably less. Mostly of an insignificant level.
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>>If he is in excellent health at 75.
No. It's an average for 75 year olds. The really healthy ones could expect to live longer, the sickly ones less.
Really. Honest. Look at the table I linked to.
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>> >>If he is in excellent health at 75.
>>
>> No. It's an average for 75 year olds. The really healthy ones could expect to
>> live longer, the sickly ones less.
>>
>> Really. Honest. Look at the table I linked to.
I have, it says I will die at 79.
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Zero is I suspect deliberately mixing up life expectancy with average age at death.
The latter is simply the average age at which people are dying, this year. That is a verifiable fact.
But life expectancy is a projection into the future.
I don't know whether Zero meant 75 was the strictly life expectancy, or whether he meant average age. But there is no such thing as simply "life expectancy of a man today" unless it is related to his current age.
Imagine a very extreme example. 50% of all babies die within their first year, but every one that survives that year lives to 80.
The average life expectancy at birth would be 40, the average age at death would be 80.
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>> Zero is I suspect deliberately mixing up life expectancy with average age at death.
>>
>> The latter is simply the average age at which people are dying, this year. That
>> is a verifiable fact.
And you lot are deliberately mired in pedantry. It doesn't alter the fact that I am likely to die at 79.
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I think it's an interesting table Manatee - thanks.
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Keep a check on those passing seconds Zero
www.deathclock.com/
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Your Personal Day of Death is...
Friday, July 7, 2028
Wow, it gets worse I will be 74
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>>www.deathclock.com<<
There must be life after death then. I can input the same data into it and die anything up to 8 years later. The implication is that I survive the first few deaths
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>> >> It doesn't alter the fact that I
>> am likely to die at 79.
>>
From Manatee's table that means you are currently 30. Assuming male, and UK.
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My father is that same age as Jimmy.
My mother would have been. (she passed over 10 years ago)
I was given 24 hours, over 25 years ago.
I have lost many family members and friends over the years, many far too young.
It is no good dwelling on it, it is a fact of life - we are born, then we die.
Live every day as best you can, doesn't mean you have to enjoy every day, I know I dont.
BUT I go to bed, thinking that's one more than I should have had.
I have, by surviving, left a legacy - 3 fine children, and (so far) one grandson.
THAT is what life's about.
A poem, that my mother liked. (By Mary Frye)
Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am in a thousand winds that blow,
I am the softly falling snow.
I am the gentle showers of rain,
I am the fields of ripening grain.
I am in the morning hush,
I am in the graceful rush
Of beautiful birds in circling flight,
I am the starshine of the night.
I am in the flowers that bloom,
I am in a quiet room.
I am in the birds that sing,
I am in each lovely thing.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there. I do not die.
(one of many versions)
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I always remember the day he had to tell my grandpa her son had died, to this day that is the single worst day of my life.
I think his death has had an effect on my life, before that I used to plan everything and had great ambitions, his death changed that and for many years I really didn't give a stuff. There needs to be a balance though.
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Hmm - I've only got 4 years left then!
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My ole Fella is 76, which for our family line is Ancient! - apart from my gran who lived to 93, the rest of us have all gone before 70.
As long as I can remember, my Dad has had an overwhelming fear of dying, so much so that if he dwells on it too long he goes into "dark-periods" and almost has a breakdown! It very nearly "did for him" when Mam died aged 56.
Luckily, (and i use this in genuine tone) he started with Dementia when he was 68, which has now progressed to the state that he is in his own "cloud-cuckoo" land of 50 years ago.
I know alot of folk class Dementia as a horrible thing, and usually it is, but in my dads case it has allowed him to live-out the last few remaining years of his life in complete calm. He no longer fears death, because he doesn`t realise it exists.
Mercy comes in strange `guises!
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It's quite focussing when you subtract your current age from the average life expectancy and then say to yourself that by the law of averages, that's how much time I have left available to do all the things I still want to do....
Not many folk'd watch rubbish TV for hours on end if they pondered that one for long would they? Or indeed spend much time faffing about on the internet either come to that !...
:-)
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That's a beautiful poem and one I have always loved.
If I can achieve that in death then I will be happy.
It may be difficult though....
My old Boss reckons when I die he's going to have me stuffed and mounted on the office roof, along with my broomstick.
I still don't know if that is a compliment or not:)
Pat
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Well at least your not going to be a Radiator mascot!! ;-)
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True:)
It's an ill wind...which works for your old Dad.
Pat
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Sir Jimmy Savile: 'I've always been a bit odd'
2006 - 6+ mins interview with him.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-15510190
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The life expectancy of a 100-year-old is under a year, in my experience.
Seems to me they see it as a target - telegram from the Queen, picture in the local paper - but after that they lose the will to carry on.
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I'm not sure how well I'll cope with old age if I get the chance to find out. More or less everthing I enjoy doing is reliant upon good mobility. I hate being in the same place for too long and thrive on physical exertion rather than rest and relaxation. I'm not keen on television and prefer being outdoors to in. Not sure what I'd do if I couldn't physically cope with much.
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Best start researching off road mobility scooters then.
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>> I hate being in the same place for too long and thrive on physical exertion
>>
Get some practice in this winter pushing the Benz on it's summer slicks..
-:))
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Yeah yeah yeah...anyway, what good is two day's excercise per winter?
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 31 Oct 11 at 12:54
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I should have been born a sloth!
I hate exercise, physical work of any kind and really look forward to my afternoon siestas.
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save half a day of agro, stay in bed.
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I tried to copy and paste the poem but i failed, no idea why. But it's beautiful and i want it on my computer
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I'll e-mail it to you HF.
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A new arrival goes up to the Pearly Gates.
He rings the bell and say's to St Peter ''did you know you have a broken hinge?''
St Peter replies
''Don't worry, Jim'll fix it''
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Poetry seems to have the power to soothe grief, and mindful of the risk of having too much of a good thing, I proffer the following:
Remember me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you planned:
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad.
Christina Rosetti
When I am dead, my dearest,
Sing no sad songs for me;
Plant thou no roses at my head,
Nor shady cypress tree:
Be the green grass above me
With showers and dewdrops wet;
And if thou wilt, remember,
And if thou wilt, forget.
I shall not see the shadows,
I shall not feel the rain;
I shall not hear the nightingale
Sing on as if in pain:
And dreaming through the twilight
That doth not rise nor set,
Haply I may remember,
And haply may forget.
Christina Rosetti
Death is nothing at all,
I have only slipped into the next room
I am I and you are you
Whatever we were to each other, that we are still.
Call me by my old familiar name,
Speak to me in the easy way which you always used
Put no difference in your tone,
Wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow
Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together.
Play, smile, think of me, pray for me.
Let my name be ever the household word that it always was,
Let it be spoken without effect, without the trace of shadow on it.
Life means all that it ever meant.
It it the same as it ever was, there is unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of mind because I am out of sight?
I am waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near,
Just around the corner.
All is well.
Henry Scott Holland
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Jimmy Savile's coffin was on view in a Leeds hotel earlier this week.
I noticed that among the many people queueing to see the coffin very few were wearing poppies.
Don't Northerners wear poppies?
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Since its neither Remembrance day nor Remembrance Sunday why should they and indeed what business is it of anybody other than the individual whether they others wear a poppy or not?
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Absolutely CG, you've hit the nail on the head for me too.
I've got a poppy, it's stuck in a mirror in my kitchen, no doubt I shall forget to wear it if I go out tomorrow but it in no way means I'm disrespectful, or have forgotten.
Why should I feel guilty? But I do if I forget.
The Poppy campaign is a wonderful thing but it is fast becoming a symbol to judge people by and it was never, ever meant to be that.
Pat
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Now then, now then, now then! Jingle jangle, jewellery, jewellery!
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Buried at a 45 degree angle apparently! - Do you need any special permissions? or can you be buried "all ends up" at your own request?
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>>
>> Don't Northerners wear poppies?
>>
We tend to find they last far longer if only worn for one day a year ;-)
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...................and then you have the BBC/ITVwhere every luvvie who appears in front of the camera has a poppy flaunted on their apparel.
I just wonder how many of them (a) buy their own or (b) in their hearts, given their political leanings, truly DO support the significance of the Remembrance Day ceremonies, or its symbols.
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 10 Nov 11 at 20:12
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>> ...................and then you have the BBC/ITVwhere every luvvie who appears in front of the camera
>> has a poppy flaunted on their apparel.
>> I just wonder how many of them (a) buy their own or (b) in their
>> hearts, given their political leanings, truly DO support the significance of the Remembrance Day ceremonies,
>> or its symbols.
It's not a luvvie thing Roger, if they don't wear one the Daily Mail tendency is up in arms.
I suspect wardrobe buy a job lot of poppies for both the presenters and those interviewees who've 'forgotten'.
But what on earth makes you think that being left/liberal (I assume that's what you mean by their political leanings) is incompatible with recognising and supporting the significance of Remembrance Day?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 10 Nov 11 at 20:27
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Looks like some of those skeletons may get an airing after all
tinyurl.com/99zk3cu
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>> But what on earth makes you think that being left/liberal (I assume that's what you
>> mean by their political leanings) is incompatible with recognising and supporting the significance of Remembrance
>> Day?
>>
Because of their often vocal abhorrence of war, with no ifs or buts....as opposed to the more right leaning folk who oppose war as well, but reluctantly accept that sometimes you have no choice?
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Remembrance Sunday is about dead people - not the ****s who sent them off to die.
The rights/wrongs of the conflict don't come into it.
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>> Remembrance Sunday is about dead people - not the ****s who sent them off to
>> die.
Was Churchill a ****?.....or were we exceptionally lucky that he was about when he was, to prevent a madman ruling most of the world.
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>> Was Churchill a ****?.....or were we exceptionally lucky that he was about when he was,
>> to prevent a madman ruling most of the world.
Were were lucky,
Now remind me, whats Blairs excuse?
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>> Was Churchill a ****?.....or were we exceptionally lucky that he was about when he was,
>> to prevent a madman ruling most of the world.
>>
We mark Remembrance Day on the Sunday closest to 11 November. That's a 14-18 date. The 14-18 war was a case of the ****s who sent them off to die.
The 39-45 conflict, albeit rooted in the unjust settlement after the 14-18 war, was a (rare) example of a just war
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We were on the winning side despite Churchill. Mad as a fish and deeply flawed. He was the King of rhetoric though. His inept "insights" led to the death of many thousands in his meddling in military matters in both conflicts.
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>> We were on the winning side despite Churchill.
Who at the time would have been a better leader than him?
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"We were on the winning side despite Churchill. "
A view not held by many who either lived through the conflict or are serious historians of the second world war.
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>>or are serious
>> historians of the second world war.
Most agree that behind the scenes his badly judged and inexpert meddling and prevarication was as much a hinderance, as his public decisiveness, political nous, and leadership skills was an inspiration.
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I don't agree. Most history I have read of the period certainly do not gloss over his failings and mistakes but I have yet to read one that would support the statement you have just made let alone the statement. "We were on the winning side despite Churchill."
All that I have read subscribe to the view that the presence of Churchill at the helm, especially in the early days of the war was overwhelmingly positive.
Perhaps you could furnish with the name of a historian of substance who you believe does support your views.
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I wouldn't give Churchill the credit for something that without the US would never have come to pass.
And I repeat: what has Churchill or any other leader got to do with Remembrance Sunday.
When the gun goes off at 11 it's not them I'm thinking of.
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And what has either to do with Jimmy Saville?
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>> And what has either to do with Jimmy Saville?
>>
I think it's what they call thread drift.
It seems to have started with a reference to poppies at (IIRC) 12.03 on 10/11/11.
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>> >> And what has either to do with Jimmy Saville?
>> >>
>>
>> I think it's what they call thread drift.
>>
>> It seems to have started with a reference to poppies at (IIRC) 12.03 on 10/11/11.
Saville was a hypocritical nonce, Churchill is much more interesting. Even the nodding dog version would be.
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>> I wouldn't give Churchill the credit for something that without the US would never have
>> come to pass.
The war for Britain could have been lost before the Americans got directly involved.
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I don't buy the 'despite Churchill' line either.
He certainly had critics. Many of them blocking bureaucrats and political appeasers whose noses were severely out of joint.
Insiders maybe, but not impartial ones.
If Churchill had been frightened of making mistakes, Europe might still be in a very dark age.
He had his blind spots, the final score suggests he was right more often than he was wrong.
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>> Perhaps you could furnish with the name of a historian of substance who you believe
>> does support your views.
Max Hastings.
The thing Churchill did right, was to hold a sinking ship upright until he could get overt American support and then bring the americans into the war. He realised we could never win on our own.
Most of the early military disasters were guided by churchill.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Sep 12 at 08:18
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">> Perhaps you could furnish with the name of a historian of substance who you believe
>> does support your views.
Max Hastings"
"If we attempt the difficult feat of imagining Britain's war without Winston Churchill, it would be drastically diminished. It was his supreme achievement to wield the powers of a national dictator without sacrificing his commitment to democracy.
The story of Churchill at war includes all manner of follies and misjudgments, because he was a mortal man. But these are pimples on the mountain of his achievement.
His tale will never lose its capacity to move us to awe, laughter, tears, astonishment. Mankind will never forget his moral example, which will define political leadership for the rest of time.
Hitler created World War II. The struggle later became dominated by the might of Russia and the United States. But no one human being could claim greater credit for the destruction of the vast evil of Nazism than Britain's prime minister.
This cataclysmic event became, in the eyes of the world and posterity, Winston's war. "
Finest Years: Churchill As Warlord. Max Hastings
Max Hastings
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Cracking book, changed my view of Churchill. Mind you Gallipoli wasn't his finest hour.
Zero has put his finger on it BTW.
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read the book before you quote the publicity blurb. And why are you arguing with me when my initial statement is backed up by your quote?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Sep 12 at 09:22
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Saville's monstrous headstone is utterly tasteless, just like the man himself.
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and it has a speeling mistake.
WARNING DAILY WAIL ARTICLE
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206085
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The look on the vicars face says it all.......
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I like the headstone. It's a fitting epitaph to Sir Jimmy Savile. How many people can say they did as much charitable work as he did?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 21 Sep 12 at 14:06
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Jeremy Beadle.
And he didn't need to put it out on display for all to see.
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Is it me, or is the Writing on the RH panel sloping?
It reads more like a C.V than a Memorial! - and it`s that trashy i`m surprised he didn`t have it made and wear it around his neck on a chain whilst he was alive.
Last edited by: devonite on Fri 21 Sep 12 at 15:14
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"it`s that trashy "
Yep, maybe it is! Or is flamboyant (sp?) a better description?
But then it suits Savile!
My Mum and Dad are in the same place with very simple stones. It's a lovely place.
Incidentally, I grew up in Scarborough, many of my friends (teenagers, male and female) went to parties at his flat and I never heard any gossip of anything improper going on. He also invited several to recordings of TotP in Manchester and they went, again no gossip of anything salacious about it. He used to take our U15 footy team on training runs so I met him quite a few times. Always seemed like a "good bloke". But then, I was an innocent teen so who knows?
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An underwhelming amount of complaints considering the 'notoriety'.
Whitewash or fabrication?
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>> on training runs so I met him quite a few times. Always seemed like a
>> "good bloke". But then, I was an innocent teen so who knows?
I think you were the wrong gender!
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Easy to make allegations about the dead, they can't sue.
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"I think you were the wrong gender! "
You may well be right!!
But then I knew quite a few teenage girls who went to his "parties" and never heard a wrong word said about him. The "parties " (I gathered, 'cos I never went to one myself) involved the playing of the latest releases, a bit of dancing, lots of chat, drinking (non-alcoholic - Coke and the like) and lots of "snacks" - crisps, twiglets etc.
I remember that he also did a charity run (walk??) along with hundreds of us, from Scarborough to Whitby and back (40 miles) in the very early days of charity runs - late 60s - can't remember what the run was for but was organised by a schoolmate of mine. Savile finished in the front runners but stayed on for hours to applaud all those who completed the course .I remember 'cos I did the 40 miles and he shook my hand at the finish and I was a good few hours behind him!
So, my impression of him as a character have always been good - but then what do I know? His public persona may have been different from his (very) private persona.
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By the way, his Mum was always at these parties! (I gathered!)
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>> By the way, his Mum was always at these parties! (I gathered!)
>>
To keep him in check!
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>> tinyurl.com/d6mgq6c
>>
Guido not gospel!!
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Another of your despised sources tinyurl.com/9dk8m3q
The words "smoke" and "fire", perhaps come to mind.
Just saying..........................................
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I don't doubt that this man exploited silly little girls in his TV heyday. He wasn't alone. The music industry is steeped in that carp.
But how anyone sane can have a good word to say for such a foul, dreary individual is completely beyond me. It was all so screamingly obvious from the very start.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 28 Sep 12 at 20:03
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>> But how anyone sane can have a good word to say for such a foul,
>> dreary individual is completely beyond me. It was all so screamingly obvious from the very
>> start.
>>
I reckon AC is a once besotted fan who felt slighted because he never got on Jim 'll Fix it.
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>> Another of your despised sources tinyurl.com/9dk8m3q
>>
>> The words "smoke" and "fire", perhaps come to mind.
>> Just saying..........................................
I read something broadly similar in the Mail's former sister organ The Evening Standard on the way home.
It still remains odd that all these accusers wait until he's dead to raise the issue. Appreciate that laws of libel restrain the press but were there police complaints at the time or subsequently?
I'm sorry but to me it's plausible tale for commercial gain.
Might be wrong of course but until there's more evidence......
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>> Appreciate that laws of libel restrain the press but were there police complaints at
>> the time or subsequently?
From the Mail article:
"In 2007 Surrey Police received a complaint from a woman who said she was indecently assaulted by Savile in the Seventies. The allegation was investigated but no further action taken."
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>> "In 2007 Surrey Police received a complaint from a woman who said she was indecently
>> assaulted by Savile in the Seventies. The allegation was investigated but no further action taken."
Reported thirty years later!!
If some famous bloke had tried to touch my wotsits in the seventies I'd have reported it there and then.
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>> Reported thirty years later!!
Realised that, but you did say 'or subsequently' - I thought it backed up your argument.
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Perhaps compensation had set in by then...
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>> Mail's former sister organ The Evening Standard
Er, Beaverbrook press, the Express before the press went carp shaped with diggers and porn merchants and dodgy slum landlords owning it... The Evening News, inferior, was the Mail's stablemate I think. Eventually the Standard took over the less successful News.
And now the Abendstandard is a giveaway... doesn't seem that much worse to tell the truth. The print press has had a hard couple of decades. Most people won't care much but I do.
Jimmy Savile was rich and powerful, litigious and by accounts nasty when crossed. And he had extremely powerful associates in the mainstream media. Small wonder these little folk he abused didn't think it expedient to complain. Perhaps some were paid off.
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>> >> Mail's former sister organ The Evening Standard
>>
>> Er, Beaverbrook press, the Express before the press went carp shaped with diggers and porn
>> merchants and dodgy slum landlords owning it... The Evening News, inferior, was the Mail's stablemate
>> I think. Eventually the Standard took over the less successful News.
>>
>> And now the Abendstandard is a giveaway... doesn't seem that much worse to tell the
>> truth. The print press has had a hard couple of decades. Most people won't care
>> much but I do.
The ownership of the UK press is a tangled web. The Standard has been associated with both the Beaverbrook and Harmsworth empires over the years.
Is it thirty years next month since the original, paid for, Evening News gave up? Have vague recollection of a copy of the final edition with a picture of the Night Ferry sleeper to Paris which ran for the last time the same day.
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The Evening Standard is currently owned by the Russian, Evgeny Lebedev who also owns the Independent and the I.
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AKA the rather aggressive Alexander Lebedev? :-)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19732368
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Evgeny Alexandrovich Lebedev to give him his full name.
Might be aggressive but a very intelligent and cultured man. Has done a brilliant job on creating the i.
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The "i" is a fabulous idea. Its cheap, its at most, a 30 minute read, short news synopsis on the first two pages,, news in more depth further in. It makes a perfect daily paper quick read. Poor sport coverage tho.
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The only drawback is I feel such a cheapskate proffering my 20p for a copy as my only purchase.
I presume the newsagent does get to keep the whole 20p though.
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Just mutter to yourself "four shillings for a newspaper!?". You'll feel better.
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Sounds like the Metro even better as it's free.
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>> Sounds like the Metro even better as it's free.
"i" comes through the door, I would have to walk to the station to get the Metro.
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Whilst a fact unknown to most London dwellers there are actually a considerable number of people who live outside the circulation area of the Metro. :-)
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It's not a London only paper.
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Well there is that, but not if you go there anyway.
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Actually I just checked and was surprised that it is distributed in a lot of cities other than London (not Norwich though). I always associate it with dirty late evening tube trains. It's part of the Daily Mail Group
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 29 Sep 12 at 22:54
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Do you get anything other EDP yet ? ;-)
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The Standard has retained its mid market quality feel since it went free. Not always my cup of tea politically supporting Boris and being overtly anti Livingstone. The news coverage and editorial content are still excellent.
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I was always an Evening News man myself. Shame when it went to the wall in about the mid seventies.
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>> Not always
>> my cup of tea politically supporting Boris and being overtly anti Livingstone.
Damn. I should have read it more often then, when I was up that way.
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There is a Metro app - free download of every issue
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Now Savile's family is complaining that these allegations have only surfaced after his death when he can no longer defend himself.
You can't blame his relations for being on his side. But would they have applauded if someone had dared make these claims while he was still alive?
I am looking forward to hearing who the collusive 'BBC bosses' were. But I don't expect to have heard of any of them.
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One of the relatives was talking on R4's evening news last night. Saying how much damage the allegations are making to his memory and his charities....
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An MP is now calling for an enquiry.
tinyurl.com/pwjaac
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Daily Mash, heh heh, right on. That's almost the real point. The TV was worse than the abuse almost.
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After this programme I can see someone changing the "A" in his name to an "O"!
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The following is apparently an out take from an old Have I got News For You, some years back now when Savile was a guest. I should warn that it contains very strong language -
www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rogerb/jokes/HIGNFY.txt
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Some doubt as to its authenticity, unfortunately :)
www.comedy.co.uk/forums/thread/22840/
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 3 Oct 12 at 13:04
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The Guy (Savile) appears to have "Rhino-hide" and no apparent shame! to sit through that!
Couple of days ago it was reported that he fully backs Gary Glitter, and that he(Glitter) did nothing wrong!!!
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>> The Guy (Savile) appears to have "Rhino-hide" and no apparent shame! to sit through that!
He didn't - see link above.
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I`m a one-finger typer! - I was still composing my post when the above one was posted! ;-)
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>> I`m a one-finger typer!
Well you see I've spent over 30 years sitting at computer keyboards, so I can sometimes use 2 :)
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>> After this programme I can see someone changing the "A" in his name to an
>> "O"!
>>
As I pointed out way back in this thread, that was an old joke current in the 80s and probably much older.
Not everyone who chuckled over Jimmy So vile would have known the exact details of what was supposed to be so vile about him, but there was I think a distinct feeling that he was not entirely wholesome.
Definitely NSIT category.
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Thought I`d made that one up! ;-) - must have read it somewhere and it lodged in my sub-conscious!! ;-)
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Out of the horse's mouth:
tinyurl.com/9tkp468
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Seems a bit strange that those words are only now being read.
Anybody got a copy of the book to check the words are there?
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Not trying to defend JS in general, but the way I read that is that the girl agreed to do something she didn't want to do (go back to the remand home) only by being allowed to do something she really wanted to do (sleep with a well known DJ). I guess that's abuse of power - a bit like the teacher? - although presumably the girl wouldn't have complained. Perhaps the fact the girl was from a care home means she was under-age?
At first I didn't think it sounded too bad but I'm not so sure now...
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 3 Oct 12 at 17:08
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I excuse nothing, and it's not exactly clear what happened, but times were very different.
Savile was in his late twenties perhaps, and well within memory were the privations and perils of a world war.
The fact (if it is a fact) that he wrote what he did suggests he and his publisher expected it to be viewed very differently from how it would be today; that applies even more to the 1950s.
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Does add some weight to accusations made subsequently although they seem to date from after that autobiography was published...
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There is an impressive silence from his fellow DJs.
tinyurl.com/9rt2jzt
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 3 Oct 12 at 17:39
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Paul Gambaccini has said something: tinyurl.com/8m8u4zb
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>> There is an impressive silence from his fellow DJs.
As I said, times were different...perhaps not just for JS.
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I have no idea whether or not he misbehaved with young girls. I wouldn't be surprised, but I know nothing.
However, I've noticed today various articles talking of his "imperial" personality. That I do know about and my goodness was it true. In an environment where I once worked, he used to swan in, disrupt everything with his demands and imperious behaviour and then glide back out leaving devastation and upset behind him.
The other comment I've read today was that newspapers used to leave him alone because of a fear of damaging charity fund-raising and being publicly seen to be responsible. That also I know about; there as an absolute feeling where I was that caution must be shown, and that he must be humoured and tolerated for fear of damaging the charity work.
Like I said, I know nothing of sexual offences and undeniably he raised a huge amount of money for charity, but as a person in the flesh, he was an a***.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 3 Oct 12 at 18:18
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There sits the shadow fear'd by man.
Who broke our fair companionship
and spread his mantle dark and cold
and left thee formless in the fold
and dull'd the murmur on thy lip and bore thee where I could not see,
nor follow, tho' I walk in haste
and know that, somewhere in the waste,
the shadow sits and waits for me.
Ted
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Just a reminder that the documentary 'Exposure - the other side of Jimmy Saville' is on ITV1 tonight at 11.10.
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Here is a link to a blog by someone who clearly does not admire Savile.
There are many allegations there, some just that, some possibly true.
Have a look and see what you think.
aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/bbcs-jimmy-savile-and-child-abuse-cover.html
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>> aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/bbcs-jimmy-savile-and-child-abuse-cover.html
Hadn't heard this before:
Allegedly, UK Prime Minister Edward Heath "would regularly take boys from certain care homes away on his boat for weekends....
"The name 'Mr. Eddy' was well known on Hampstead Heath and the boys home nearby in the seventies."
"ALLEGEDLY... the person bringing children for him to abuse was Sir Jimmy Savile.
"He was seen by the witness, victim, taking young boys onboard Heaths yacht the Morning Cloud when they were at party conference.
"Saville is known for supplying a number of high profile MP’s with children for them to sexually abuse."
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>> >> Hadn't heard this before:
>>
>> It's utter tripe, that's why.
That would explain it - thanks :)
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Have you actually read that Roger!?
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Yes - I DID say that they were allegations, though.
Are they true? I don't know, but maybe the truth will out, for or against some, or all, of these stories.
One the other hand, powerful people are mentioned..........................................
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 00:00
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Well, if that's the best that these people can come up with against Jimmy Saville, then it's no surprise that they waited until now to air their allegations. If they had broadcast this program whilst he was alive, they would have been taken to the cleaners for libel.
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It was a bit thin, to be honest he was behaving just as any DJ (or pop star) did in those days.
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Then perhaps this might result in some similar stories/allegations regarding DJs/pop stars who are still alive.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 09:04
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Cough - Bill Wyman / Mandy Smith
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Old hat - what about some new stuff?
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Savilles was old hat, and thats the point. In those days, in those circumstances, it happened. It wouldnt be tolerated today, or kept quiet.
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>> Savilles was old hat, and thats the point.
The point is that they weren't made public until after he died. I'm wondering whether the victims of others (assuming there are any) might be encouraged to come forward now rather than wait until after their attackers have passed away.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 09:30
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>> >> Savilles was old hat, and thats the point.
>>
>> The point is that they weren't made public until after he died. I'm wondering whether
>> the victims of others (assuming there are any) might be encouraged to come forward now
>> rather than wait until after their attackers have passed away.
If they do, they will all be old now and it will all therefore be the old news you were moaning about.
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Agreed it will be old news, but it's caused quite a stir and AFAIK it's resulted in the police (re-?)opening investigations. I imagine any 'celebrities' with skeletons in the closet like Jimmy's might be feeling a bit worried at the moment.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 09:52
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>> It was a bit thin, to be honest he was behaving just as any DJ
>> (or pop star) did in those days.
We perhaps forget now how big a stars the Radio 1 DJ's were from the late sixties and thru' the seventies. Some of them were barely out of their twenties and the existence of a 'groupie' culture with young women, some not quite 16, is not a shock is it?
Savile OTOH is alleged to have had interests in rather younger ones - 12 to 13. He was born in 1926 which would have meant he was as old or older than the parents of early seventies teenagers.
I don't think John Peel, were he alive today, would have too much to worry about. He was quite open about his previous during his own lifetime anyway.
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>> Have a look and see what you think.
>>
>> aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/bbcs-jimmy-savile-and-child-abuse-cover.html
>>
I take with a pinch of salt any allegation made by somone who, at the time of the alleged assault, had a personality such as to warrant them being in an approved school ~ later called a community home. tinyurl.com/dxq2oco
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 13:57
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>> an approved school ~ later called a community home. tinyurl.com/dxq2oco
tinyurl.com/8o6danh
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>> >> an approved school ~ later called a community home. tinyurl.com/dxq2oco
>>
>> tinyurl.com/8o6danh
It would almost certainly have been taken with a pinch of salt at the time. And probably had further consequences including a label of 'pathological liar'.
My initial response to all this was that allegations were gold diggers looking for a bit of fame and or compo.
Now I'm not so sure.
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The victims of this sort of thing, bury their head in the sand and hope it goes away. Later in life when they are perhaps stronger mentally, no doubt helped by the corroboration of some other persons allegation and the accused being deceased, it's then easier to put your head up above the parapet.
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Westpig,
Not talking about this case specifically, but trying to generalise;
When we read about people who years after the event, suddenly remember some abuse, and then half a dozen others suddenly join in, does your experience tend to suggest these are people jumping on a fantasy bandwagon or that there are genuine examples?
I'm always cynical, but maybe I go too far.
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I'm with Mark on this.
It's also difficult to judge events in history in the context of the time they happened in, rather than applying today's values.
I'm uncomfortable that out of all the alleged victims no-one, - that's no-one - no kids, no parents on their behalf, no-one - came forward at the time, until the man is not there to defend himself. (OK, one person, but not till 2007).
Many thought him a twit as an entertainer - I never much enjoyed him either - but it is very harsh what's going on now, more so if it is never proven, which it probably won't be.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 00:54
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>> (OK, one person, but not till 2007).
Another one in 2008 apparently:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19820017
(that's not the 2007 one AFAIK)
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 17:13
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(I may have got the year wrong too)
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>> (I may have got the year wrong too)
I think you're correct - Surrey police in 2007 and Sussex police in 2008.
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>> When we read about people who years after the event, suddenly remember some abuse, and
>> then half a dozen others suddenly join in, does your experience tend to suggest these
>> are people jumping on a fantasy bandwagon or that there are genuine examples?
That's a difficult one to answer.
There are people who make things up and they do a lot of harm to genuine victims of crime.
Equally so, there are many people who have something horrible happen to them and try to forget about it, but never quite do.
The genuine ones are often vulnerable at the time, but become empowered when they are older...and it only takes a news item of another victim bravely stepping forward, for them then to decide to do the same.
I haven't got the answers I'm afraid...and it wasn't my area of specific expertise.
In my time though, I have sat through or over viewed allegations made and thought 'what a load of carp'...and equally so, done the same and thought ' this happened, but there's no hope in hell of this going anywhere'.
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>> And probably had further consequences including a label of 'pathological liar'.
A leopard doesn't change its spots.
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I'm trying as hard as possible to keep an open mind on this. I've yet to see last night's TV program (past my bedtime).
On the one hand, he did raise a tremendous amount for charity and I believe 'you can't slander the dead', which means anyone can say anything they like about him with no fear of legal recourse. It would seem all these girls were from children's homes and would have been there for a reason. Has anyone questioned them about their sexual activity at that age?
He did make some lurid comments about the age of sexual consent and there's 'no smoke without fire'.
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"I'm trying as hard as possible to keep an open mind on this"
Same here bt.
What I couldn't understand was that the girls interviewed last night thought it was revolting/disgusting/he abused me/took advantage of me etc, etc and then said it happened on several occasions. Why did they keep going back to him??
He possibly was a "dirty old man" and did lots of nasty things but then I guess a lot of DJs were.
Goodness knows what will turn up when Mick Jagger/Keith Richards or even Cliff Richard pop their clogs!
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Met Police to assess Jimmy Savile claims www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19837906
Wonder what that will cost us? And for what? I can't see it being conclusive.
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Why is it being done? There is no way Saville will be brought to trial, are they after those who covered it up? Perverting the course of justice maybe?
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>> Why is it being done?
Not clear really.
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19837906
The force said its Child Abuse Investigation Command would look into the allegations, but said: "It is not an investigation at this stage".
...
A spokesman said: "Our priority will be to ensure a proportionate and consistent policing response putting the victims at the heart of our inquiries.
"It is too early to say how many individual allegations there are, and we will be making contact with all those concerned in due course."
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 20:51
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Why didn't these Women speak up earlier.
Last edited by: Martin Devon on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 21:24
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Perhaps all this is really just a somewhat pointless exercise in investigating the mores and practices of the time, probably pretty prevalent in the pop/entertainment world, and JS just happens to be the worst and most blatant example, and of course conveniently dead.
I would guess that most people at the time realised what being an hysterical teenage groupie really meant, summed up by the Limerick:
There was a young lady of Kent,
Who said that she knew what it meant
When men asked her to dine,
Gave her oysters and wine,
She knew what it meant,
But she went!
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>>Why is it being done?
Perhaps;
a) media and political pressure
or
b) to check that nobody else still alive was also involved, or indeed still engaged in abusing minors.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 4 Oct 12 at 22:30
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.....and the BBC being sued potentially.
Bad taste I know. But what the heck....
The BBC News channel just displayed images of the three women who claimed that Jimmy Savile interfered with them sexually. They showed a current picture of each of the women and a picture taken of each of them from the 1970s. The caption read: Now, then. Now, then. Now, then.
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You should be ashamed of yourself Rob !
Damned funny though !
:-)
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I didn't get RP's totally tasteless joke at first, then all of a sudden, Clunk, it clicked!
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>> b) to check that nobody else still alive was also involved, or indeed still engaged
>> in abusing minors.
>>
Including the "Well known personality" who is still alive today. Not to mention Paul Gadd.
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Just watched the show and I'm still sceptical. He did seem a bit touchy feely when he was holding girls on the show, but some of the accusations just didn't stack up for me - one guy said he came out and washed himself quite openly after having a girl in his room, didn't seem to care who might have seen. So where were all the other people who saw him washing himself on the numerous occasions to corroborate??
Obviously there is the weight of a number of similar supposedly independent complaints. One woman said he abused her loads of times. So why did she keep going back?
I guess none of us will ever know, I think it's a shame this will always cloud the fantastic charity work he did. Stoke Mandeville was transformed largely by his work.
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'b) to check that nobody else still alive was also involved, or indeed still engaged in abusing minors.'
They are going to open a whole can of worms then.
Perverting the course of justice - nope, other than Sussex there have been no other inquiries I'm aware of.
Turning a blind eye or failing to report abuse might be a very thin 'aiding and abetting'.
There will be no real outcome to all this so perhaps a)media and political pressure.
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I've now watched the program.
The 'girls' seem to be claiming that he sexually abused them from the age of 14, but they continued in sexual relationships until their early 20s.
SWMBO's revealed that some of her colleagues from a girls grammar school thought it a 'right of passage' to have sex with an older man from the age of 14 in the '60s. She reckons the numbers would have been many times higher if they could've got on top-of-the-pops as a result.
There's probably still staff around from the school mentioned..............
Pat doesn't seem to have contributed. It would be interesting for an opinion from the female side.
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I have kept out of this discussion because I can't seem to be objective about it...and we all know how hard you lot can be if facts arn't forthcoming!
Firstly, I agree he isn't here to defend himself and so it's easy to feel this is unfair to his reputation and to his family.
My gut feeling is that he is guilty, and so are so many people for being aware of it and allowing it to continue and that makes me angry.
Where is the protection of underage 'children' like Megan that we all got so angry about?
I can fully understand an 'early teen' in the 60's being starstruck and not telling anyone the price they thought they were paying for a tiny bit of fame.
The more deprived the person is the more they live on dreans as a comfort, and let us not forget that many of the allegations have come from childrens homes and various institutions.
Preying on the vulnerable?
There is also the argument that he did so much for charity, but for me that is the worst bit of all, and there is no way he should be esteemed for his charity work when it appears to me that he used it as a front to gratify his own leanings but at the same time putting himself in an untouchable position for doing so.
There was no such thing as a peadophile in the 60's, they were known as dirty old men and sadly I think JS was certainly one of those, but to those women who have finally felt able to tell us what happened after all this time, I say 'well done'. It must have been very hard to see someone esteemed by one and all for his good work knowing what you knew.
Pat
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I'm glad you made the link to Megan Stammers. Her teacher has been given no quarter here, basically because he was in loco parentis and must have known better.
JS may well have been doing what other nasty people in the world of light entertainment were, and times were different - but it seems to me he was far worse than the teacher if there is more than a grain of truth in the allegations. In any case, he could also have been said to have been loco parentis when he got involved with schools, and taking advantage of star struck underage girls is despicable, whether it was widespread or not.
Janet Street Porter on QT last night didn't seem surprised and did effectively say there was a lot of that sort of thing in light entertainment when she was involved with it, in the 70s I think.
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I can see the JS accusations going the same way as the phone hacking investigation, although proof will be difficult. Must be a few worried people around. Or will powerful people get it kicked into the long grass?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 08:34
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Phone hacking was different, that could have an ongoing and growing impact on peoples lives. I thought the money spent on that enquiry (Levenson) was pretty obscene ( - I remember posting here before about looking at all the high paid lawyers sitting listening day in day out) but at least it will (hopefully) achieve something.
A witchhunt about a dead man won't, and I hope the "powerful people" realise that, rather than going along with the flow. That would be prudence, in these straitened times, not kicking it into the long grass.
If these things happened, whatever lesson there would have been to be learnt from it has probably already been learnt in the passing 30 - 40 years. And despite our enhanced knowledge, there will always be older blokes trying it on with younger girls, both with and without their consent, and there will always been teenagers of both sexes experimenting sexually. No expensive enquiry will sort that out.
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Freddie Starr sees 'libel' injunction overturned: tinyurl.com/9sxw8z6
it concerned an allegation “an individual woman had made in relation to the applicant”,
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>> The Currant Bun explains more
>>
>> www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4572880/Freddie-Starr-loses-court-gag-bid-over-under-age-girl-grope-in-Jimmy-Saviles-dressing-room.html
>>
>> Seems they were all at it...
>>
Starr denies it - full story:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9590025/Freddie-Starr-I-have-never-touched-an-underage-girl.html
note this point he makes:
"She says she rebuffed me because my breath smelled of alcohol. That can't have happened because I've never drunk, I'm teetotal."
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Thatcher, Scargill, Savile, all upset miners/minors in the 80s. (cleaned it up a bit)
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As this article in The Times points out, as far back as 1974 Savile openly admitted to having sex with an underage girl -
timesopinion.tumblr.com/post/32804536645/jimmy-saviles-affections-laid-bare-by-jimmy-savile
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I don't like the tone of what is quoted at all; very uncomfortable, assuming that he wrote it.
But he didn't admit to sex with anyone in that quote.
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>> I don't like the tone of what is quoted at all; very uncomfortable, assuming that
>> he wrote it.
>>
>> But he didn't admit to sex with anyone in that quote.
>>
I think this quote "He wrote that he did then hand her over to the “lady of the law…[who] was dissuaded from bringing charges against me by her colleagues, for it was well known that were I to go I would probably take half the station with me”, makes it as plain as day that he did have sex with her, the implication being that as the club DJ or manager or what ever role he had he also knew of police officers who had slept with girls of that age.
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Made it plain, perhaps. Implications, perhaps.
But he still didn't specifically say it or "openly admit" it.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 17:23
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>> Made it plain, perhaps. Implications, perhaps.
>>
>> But he still didn't specifically say it or "openly admit" it.
>>
No, but were such things taken as seriously back then as they are now it would have been enough to launch an investigation.
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Certainly.
Mind you, with all this going on I really do hope he's guilty, if you see what I mean. Pretty terrible if he wasn't.
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>> Mind you, with all this going on I really do hope he's guilty, if you
>> see what I mean. Pretty terrible if he wasn't.
>>
I can see what you mean.
With all the stories coming out you'd have to believe there is at least some truth in them, particularly as two living persons have been named and neither has gone running to the lawyers yet (except to try and get the story spiked).
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>>With all the stories coming out you'd have to believe there is at least some truth in them
I really dislike all the "smoke without fire" arguments. Equally I dislike the idea that people can be trashed by false allegations simply because of media or public dislike.
However in this case, its less clear. I met the guy and he seemed off. Not exactly creepy, but off. There seem to be endless comments from people such as ex-djs, ex-colleagues and others which also suggest he was a little "off".
For once, the smoke/fire argument feels like it might have some traction.
The [or "my"] trouble is, that's a naff reason for supposing someone is guilty of stuff as nasty as this.
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>
>> The [or "my"] trouble is, that's a naff reason for supposing someone is guilty of
>> stuff as nasty as this.
>>
Listen to this short audio clip now before it gets taken down
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfGWkLUB84
Last edited by: John H on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 18:27
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John, that recording is [PFD], as I’m sure you suspect. Taken completely out of context with Saville using his "public" persona. ref: "all the ladies and gentlemen" and similar.
There was something adrift with the bloke, but the danger is that all this complete trash coming out now will conceal whether or not the guy was a pervert and camouflage it all in some argument about media frenzy.
We tend to see a red flag that pops up when second and./or further victims suddenly remember their experience and complain about it, but we see not issue in all this "evidence" appearing all over the place.
*IF* he was guilty, then he was too smart and/or too cunning to leave clues *that* big.
*If* he was guilty he got away with it for years, and he didn't do that by shooting his mouth off.
*IF* there is evidence against him, then it isn’t all this sensationalist rubbish that's suddenly appearing on YouTube and other places.
Now, if I had to finally put my opinion on the line, then I'd guess he was guilty, bearing in mind Zero's extremely valid comments.
But we need to stop, or ignore, the laughable contrivances.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 00:53
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>> John, that recording is [PFD], as I’m sure you suspect. Taken completely out of context
>> with Saville using his "public" persona. ref: "all the ladies and gentlemen" and similar.
>>
In any context whatsoever, I certainly would not like to hear a tape where my teen daughter (if I have have one) is heard telling any bloke "get off" and "get off my backside".
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Neither would I. But then I doubt your daughter would have found it funny. Different environment.
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All through the 70's any DJ (even the unknown ones down the local hop) or any band member or singer (again even the useless weekend ones) would grab one of the young girls (call them groupies or hangers on - anything you like - all between 14 - 17) for a shag. If they went "back-stage" or hung around afterwards, they were fair game. Unsavoury perhaps, but that was the times, if the girls are moaning about it now, tough - they knew the rules and why there were there,
Now hauling off to naughty girls school, or childrens home to procure them, thats a whole new ballgame as it were. We are in Garry Glitter real predatory paed territory.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 17:32
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>> All through the 70's any DJ (even the unknown ones down the local hop) or
>>
>>
www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/46252_former_owner_of_walton_hop_speaks_of_distress
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The walton hop in the early 70s was well known as being a young teen meat market. So young in fact it was soon scrubbed from our (my crowd at the time) night out circuit.
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>> between 14 - 17) for a shag. If they went "back-stage" or hung around afterwards, they were fair game. Unsavoury perhaps, but that was the times, if the girls are moaning about it now, tough - they knew the rules and why there were there,
Quite a few well-known stars were the hapless sex-toys or catamites of movers and shakers in the music industry. I could name two off the top of my head and I'm not knowledgeable at all in this area.
These weren't naughty girls who were up for it and damn the consequences. These were people with a bit of talent, a lot sometimes, who were made an offer they couldn't refuse.
I've met a lot of groupie types and teenage tarts in my time in various places. I'm not especially holier than thou but I feel worried when they seem very young. People used to think me a bit weird and inhibited in those circles. I suppose I am really but I don't feel bad about it.
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>> All through the 70's any DJ
I was going to suggest that John Peel wouldn't have been involved in that sort of thing - good job I didn't:
tinyurl.com/8ol78bm (Mail)
Last edited by: Focus on Sat 6 Oct 12 at 08:45
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Puts his favourite record "Teenage Kicks" in a new light.
I wanna hold you wanna hold you tight
Get teenage kicks right through the night
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What did I say about the music industry? None of this is any surprise.
I am impressed by the arrant humbug coming out of old BBC directors and presenters, even la Street-Porter up to a point. There's a lot of mumbling about 'rumours, but you always get rumours in the beeb', and frequent assertions that there was no turning a blind eye.
No there wasn't. Everyone knew all about it, but they just didn't give a damn.
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Can't say I like Street-Porter, but I'd trust her.
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>> Can't say I like Street-Porter, but I'd trust her.
More the other way round for me.
:o}
Same scenario applies in the other mainstream TV channels and record companies. Sodom and Gomorrah darlings, geddit?
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A current presenter prepared to go on record.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19856081
Any more to crawl out the woodwork?
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Liz Kershaw's story is timely because 1985-90 was a period when the UK woke up to gender issues as being much more than equal pay etc. In the late seventies and beyond the sort of comments and touching she mentions were regarded as an occupational hazard for professional women.
The head of my office from 78-84 was known as a 'ladies man' and he was indeed a charming fellow. There were however instances where all of us were aware that he was having sex with another member of the department's staff in his well furnished office. Some were just enjoying the attention but at least one was a victim of drink and circumstance.
It was another ten years before I recognised that, in a later posting, her avoidance of me as a colleague was down to me having been aware of her moment of shame and passing her in a corridor afterwards.
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Liz Kershaws story is timely because she is jumping on a bandwagon to get some public exposure.
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>> Liz Kershaws story is timely because she is jumping on a bandwagon to get some
>> public exposure.
>>
Or maybe she finally feels the climate is right for her to admit to what happened without feeling ashamed of it - which is often the reaction of the victims of a humiliating assault, especially one of a sexual nature.
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>> >> Liz Kershaws story is timely because she is jumping on a bandwagon to get
>> some
>> >> public exposure.
>> >>
>> Or maybe she finally feels the climate is right for her to admit to what
>> happened without feeling ashamed of it - which is often the reaction of the victims
>> of a humiliating assault, especially one of a sexual nature.
Nah, Dj on inexorable slide to obscurity trying to get some publicity.
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>> Liz Kershaw's story is timely
Sandi Toksvig on The Andrew Marr Show has just said the same thing happened to her (early 80s again I think) - tried reporting it, didn't get anywhere.
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 7 Oct 12 at 09:18
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>> Sandi Toksvig on The Andrew Marr Show has just said the same thing happened to
>> her (early 80s again I think) - tried reporting it, didn't get anywhere.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19861146
I wonder if any living DJs/presenters are going to have to publicly defend themselves?
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Speak'n to the ole woman (again!) she reckons groping used to occur in the office environment 'in those days'.
I worked in a factory with a mix of men & women in the 1970's and it certainly didn't occur there, alas.
:}
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>> Speak'n to the ole woman (again!) she reckons groping used to occur in the office
>> environment 'in those days'.
>>
>> I worked in a factory with a mix of men & women in the 1970's
>> and it certainly didn't occur there, alas.
I suspect that will tally for others. Shopfloor women were united in number, role and perhaps by union membership. If a foreman tried it on the sisterhood would see to him.
In the office and 'management' the numbers and power relationships played differently and there was more opportunity for men to take advantage.
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>>In the office and 'management' the numbers and power relationships played differently and there was more opportunity for men to take advantage<<
Absolutely! (from the missus)
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>> >> Speak'n to the ole woman (again!) she reckons groping used to occur in the
>> office
>> >> environment 'in those days'.
Clearly she never worked in a large commercial typing pool. Guys who had to go in there were lucky to come out in one piece.
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(Hahaha!) from the missus.
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>Guys who had to go in there were lucky to come out in one piece.
A friend was sponsored through Uni as a management trainee by British Steel. His first "work experience" period was spent in the typing pool.
The first week he was there he was stripped to his shreddies, dumped butt first into a waste paper trolley and sent down to the post room in the service lift. The girls in the post room covered him with "Received" ink stamps and sent him back up to the typing pool.
They also encouraged him to 'fix' a copier machine knowing full well that the office would need to be evacuated when the ammonia tank was removed.
Mean things wimmin!
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I'm expecting to hear shortly that in the 1950s some teenage boys were sexually abused by a gorgeous female celebrity ~ the lucky devils!
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Happen to me once I was fourteen.Next door neighbour nice looking woman.Mother walked in just in time.>:)
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>> Happen to me once I was fourteen.Next door neighbour nice looking woman.Mother walked in just
>> in time.>:)
>>
Sort of happened to me in a much lighter fashion, when I was 16 at a local disco at the village hall. Older lady took a fancy and the next thing i knew I was I was indulging in tonsil tennis.
When I went for my next pint, served through a little serving hatch from a kitchen area, I got dragged in there head first, was punched about 4 times and was thrown back out. My mates thought it was hilarious.
Her husband was the server.
I still get ribbed about it some 35 years later.
Coincidentally, my 4 year olds pre-school was in the same place. At the parents meeting I got served tea through the serving hatch, how times change.
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It's true that one has a different attitude to cases of boys with older women, whom one tends to envy. Would have been just the thing, one tells oneself blithely.
The law can take quite a humourless attitude though, as a few woman teachers have discovered (along with the fact that you can't trust most people to be marginally discreet, especially teenage boys).
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>> Coincidentally, my 4 year olds pre-school was in the same place. At the parents meeting
>> I got served tea through the serving hatch, how times change.
>>
Was there a little internal grin?
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>> >> Coincidentally, my 4 year olds pre-school was in the same place. At the parents
>> meeting
>> >> I got served tea through the serving hatch, how times change.
>> >>
>> Was there a little internal grin?
>>
Aye
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>> Happen to me once I was fourteen.Next door neighbour nice looking woman.Mother walked in just
>> in time.>:)
Oh, hard luck, Dutchie!
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I'm not even sure I know who this bloke was. But I'm not sure this thread is in terribly good taste. He's dead, so really why are we (as a nation) wasting our time - and money, for the police are involved - on this angst.
A crime with no criminal (alive). Why bother...
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A fat load of good came of that.
Pointless gun control. If you want a 'shooter' go and ask somebody in the local council estate. £200 (£100?) will get you a gun and a clip or three.
Worst legislation we've introduced for a while, save for the hunting legislation, probably.
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>>A fat load of good came of that.
Yeah, the Police should have just tidied up, buried the dead, and left it at that.
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Jimmy Savile 1926 - 2011. - devonite
