Non-motoring > Greek Debt Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Lygonos Replies: 42
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 18:02 
 Greek Debt - Lygonos
LOL

LMFAO

etc

So we have the unexpected (ha ha) position that after throwing good money after bad, the Greek economy looks like it is imploding/deflating to the point that debt 'haircuts' look unavoidable.

What message does this send to the other highly indebted nations?

Vordermanomics has failed just like it does for personal debt.

(Why not take a big giant loan out to pay off you existing loans?)

Ha ha ha

It'd be funny if it wasn't so ridiculously stupid.

Is there any point to 'national debt' other than to allow the politicians-of-the-day to spend more than they should to try to keep their popularity levels high?

(Other than servicing extraordinary spending, of course, eg. WW2)
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 18:08 
 Greek Debt - Meldrew
A Parallel with the American housing loans fiasco - people lent money they had no hope of repaying and then the lot packaged up into worthless Investment "Instruments", leading to the demise of American and British banks. Euro problem is pretty much the same thing with a lot more noughts on the end.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sat 22 Oct 11 at 18:09
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 18:21 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
>>What message does this send to the other highly indebted nations?<<

Do the same, no matter what, someone else will pick up the bill.

Ive always understood the idea of borrowing to build stuff that improves the economy like roads, railways, airports etc, then you get a return on it and pay down the debt.

I dont know why running up a debt was so desirable when the economy was so strong though, whatever happened to putting money aside for a rainy day?

The idea of using debt to buy public sector votes through unsustainable jobs/wages is the kind of stupidity Labour perfected and no doubt they will do it again, but atleast they can feel secure in the knowledge its not just they who practice it.



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 Sat 22 Oct 11 18:31 
 Greek Debt - CGNorwich
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with debt, national or otherwise. It only becomes a problem when your creditors believe you can't pay it back. Most people don't want to save up for their house for fifteen years while living in a tent so they take out a mortgage.

Similarly countries borrow huge sums to pay for infrastructure and other capital expenditure which will have long term benefit sand to smooth the peeks and troughs in their income .

Greece has acted like someone running up debts on their credit card to live beyond their means hoping the wherewithal to pay will turn up somehow. Not a good idea
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 18:59 
 Greek Debt - Lygonos
I guess since we're only borrowing £500m pounds per DAY at present, which we might as well not bother paying back (+ interest) it's a good idea after all.
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 21:24 
 Greek Debt - Zero
>> I guess since we're only borrowing £500m pounds per DAY at present, which we might
>> as well not bother paying back (+ interest) it's a good idea after all.


We have a triple A credit rating in the Uk because people think we will pay it back, and are making efforts to do so.

The merest sniff we wont or cant be good for our debts, puts us in the Greek Meze.
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 19:22 
 Greek Debt - Manatee
I don't know what you expected.

Greece was always going to default, the only question was when and how. You don't help a bankrupt pay his debts by lending him more money, and countries are no different. Apologies if I am just repeating something I said here before.

As to the point of national debt - again it's the same for people as for countries. You should only ever borrow to invest, not to spend. That's why politicians always talk of "investment" even though they might be referring to current expenditure or some overblown vanity project (Olympics anyone?).
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 20:46 
 Greek Debt - teabelly
Why don't we just send lots of our spongers to live over there?? Would be much cheaper than paying for them here :-) Weather is nicer over there anyway. As the Greeks seemed to have gone off hard work and paying taxes recently it would be a fitting punishment to deal with our layabouts...

As most countries of the world owe someone money why don't they just start some merry go round right off and just right off as much as possible as it seems a bit silly for everyone to owe money to everyone else and all be paying interest to each other. May as well wipe the slate clean.
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 21:16 
 Greek Debt - Lygonos
The whole notion of being able to have a debt without there being a corresponding credit somewhere just shows what a massive Ponzi-style scheme the world's financial system is based around - everything works fine until a few people say "I'd like my money back please"
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 21:32 
 Greek Debt - Dutchie
It's only paper and we can keep printing till a loaf of bread cost us whatever price.

Our inflation I mean the UK is about 5% which is high and no interest rate to speak of.

People are hurting I like to see our elected politicians starting to control our energy prices,which is out of control ruled by a cartel.

The world financial system works fine for some.
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 Sat 22 Oct 11 21:32 
 Greek Debt - Manatee
The developed countries have had an addiction to the wrong kind debt for too long.

The world's emerging economies - Mexico, Brazil, India, China (I'll ignore Russia which itself defaulted in 1998) - though you would think they are in the investment phase, for the most part have much lower debt:GDP than the developed ones. To me that is a clear sign of something rotten in the developed ones.

We are in for a very rough ride and it seems likely to me that the usual cycle will not bail us out this time. China, a much poorer country per capita, may help bail out Europe - how mad is that?
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 22 Oct 11 at 21:36
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 11:36 
 Greek Debt - mikeyb
Think its just as well Cameron got in - I think another term under Gordon and his gold plated credit card and there is no way the UK would have a tripple A rating.

IMO its a shame that we have a coalition - I think if Cameron had more freedom then he would have made more severe cuts by now and we would be heading for being in better shape quicker as a country
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:01 
 Greek Debt - Dutchie
Are you kidding?More severe cuts by the Eton boys? We be in a better shape? halve the population out of work or on benefits.We are up to our necks in debt now and borrowing.

No thanks this mess was created by speculation with money by people who live in mansions in the South of France.Remember Fred the shred.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:21 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
The cuts arent really severe though. Yes people are being put out of work no doubt, but their jobs should never have existed in the first place as they couldnt be funded long term.

Unsustainable jobs in the public sector are one of the most cynical, cruel things the Labour government did to ordinary working people, its no wonder they are angry and I can bet you Labour now are ever so happy at loosing the election because they were going to have to do many of the same severe cuts, but the ConDems are taking the heat for them.

Its like me employing a gardener, car valeter, house cleaner, personal shopper etc etc and paying them with an overdraft - eventually the point arrives where I run out of money so the 'job creation' is very much a temporary thing - if I had then promised them those jobs if they voted for me to be their local MP, it could have been even more underhanded.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:35 
 Greek Debt - Dutchie
You could say that about many jobs FoR.Even in the private sector how many managers office workers etc.To the person on the shop floor making the goods.

If you look in ports how many jobs are contracted out to agency workers.Why not have a system where people do workshare cut down hrs..There is always a cost to anything better having people involved in doing something then sat at home.

Unemployemt usually increases crime an feelind wastefull,which in the long run is more expensive to society.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:41 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
The difference is, in the private sector they are motivated by the bottom line or they go out of business, so they employ who they need to get the job done and make £££, its balanced.

In the public sector they are there to provide a service and the government hands them cash to do this with, but if the government gives them more cash than is affordable long term, any new jobs created are always at risk of the budget being cut to a more realistic level at a later date, which is what has now happened.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:39 
 Greek Debt - mikeyb
Lets be honest, when times were good Labour went on a spending spree with money that should have been used to pay down national debt.

Take working tax credits for example. I fully support initiatives to help people work who may have been better off on benefits, but I have a friend who lives in nice 4 bed detached houses in a reasonable area with 1 new, and a second 3 year old car on the drive who are entitled to almost £300 a month. They could live without this money, but it makes life "more comfortable" for them.

They are not on the fiddle, and are very honest people who were surprised how much they could get.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:44 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
You have to have a taxable income of less than £18k to get WTC, so either they are on the fiddle, they actually arent earning much or they are self-employed and have a good accountant.
To get £300 a month WTC you would need to be earning a household income somewhere around the £8k a year mark.

I suspect they dont get their money from WTC.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:58 
 Greek Debt - mikeyb

>> I suspect they dont get their money from WTC.
>>

Stu - I think you are right, and my terminology is wrong (luckily had no reason to be familiar with the benefits system)

Think it may be child tax credits????

House is owned via a mortgage, but they are a very honest bunch and will not entertain any debt. If they cant afford it they dont have it
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 13:09 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
>>Stu - I think you are right, and my terminology is wrong (luckily had no reason to be familiar with the benefits system)

Think it may be child tax credits????

House is owned via a mortgage, but they are a very honest bunch and will not entertain any debt. If they cant afford it they dont have it<<

May well be, children are a good 'earner' - my ( soon to be ex ) sister-in-law sits on her backside all day while raking in £2k a month in various benefits, which come from all sorts of sources.

As you describe them, people like them need to have their names put up in lights, nice to know they do exist - actually Im much the same and whenever I read all those money saving articles, I realise Im well ahead of that curve anyway, although making my own chips has peaked my interest :-p
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 13:17 
 Greek Debt - Iffy
...Think it may be child tax credits????...

Quite likely.

I see benefits fiddling/shoplifting single mothers in the courts whose income is between £300 and £400 a week - all made up of one benefit or another.

That includes rent and council tax, but still not bad when you consider they are paying no income tax or national insurance, so it's all spending money.

Leaving aside the criminality, a law-abiding single mother would be daft to take a job for much less than a £1,000 a week, given there would be childcare and other costs associated with working.

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 Sun 23 Oct 11 12:42 
 Greek Debt - -
It's not a Greek style debt here yet but it could get to that, at some point we will have to repay more than we borrow, where is that money going to come from apart from more borrowing.

Following on from Stu's pertinent post, the non jobs created over the last number of years were ridicuous and unsustainable, the jobs they left were taken by East Europeans and others by the hundred thousand, unless the workplace closed which many have..

No jobs now for the soon to be out of work, and now employers have found East Europeans have a considerably better work ethic, speak and write better English than many young British, and are reliable and presentable to boot....have you seen the state of many of our young people?
Agencies now feature highly in the recent work place, so this adds to the permanent employment problem.

Asian employers tend to hire Asians for their workers especially in the areas they live, so factor them out in the general situation...i personally have no problem with that by the way, i've always admired how Asians look after their own first, always thought we could and should have learned from them, family values too, but that's another discussion.

The situation in the workplace isn't helped by the ever improving maternity/paternity rights, blowed if i'd employ a woman likely to have children, nor the type of nu man likely to want 12 months off or whatever it is to parent his new child whilst i keep a temporary worker in place and hold his job open and pay him/her for the privelidge etc.
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      1  
 Sun 23 Oct 11 18:21 
 Greek Debt - Cliff Pope
If all the money we had "lent" our government and overseas governments over the years had truely been invested in projects that produced economic returns then the whole population could afford to retire and live on the interest rolling in.

Upper Clyde shipbuilders, De lorean, BMC, Concorde, Mexico, Greece, etc etc.

All shrewd investments by governments who were so much better at it than grasping capitalists and ignorant individuals - ha ha.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 19:08 
 Greek Debt - Suppose
Money, bricks and mortar, gold - or whatever - these are all artificial means of measuring your "wealth" and spending power.

The world runs on a Ponzi pyramid scheme where the poorest person is exploited by the next richer person, and so on all the way to the top where you have the mega rich like the Russian & Arab oil barons and the US silicon valley billionaires.

The "money" they have is not in their pocket, it is nominally in their banks or in shares, and gets used by the banks holding it to lend to others and it trickles down to the street beggar asking you money for pay for "a cup of tea". The beggar spends it in Starbucks and the money gets recycled.

The solution to the debt crisis? Go back to living in self supporting villages or communes and use the old bartering system in your local "community" to meet your daily needs.

Perhaps we would all be the richer for living like that, rather than in a rat race trying to show off to your fellow forum members that you own the latest BMW, Merc, iPad, iPhone, X-box, or Panasonic 40" plasma TV.

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      4  
 Sun 23 Oct 11 19:24 
 Greek Debt - rtj70
>> Perhaps we would all be the richer for living like that, rather than in a rat race trying to
>> show off to your fellow forum members

But there wouldn't be a forum.... in fact there'd be no Internet.

Suppose you can go and live like that in an African village and achieve that goal.
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      1  
 Sun 23 Oct 11 19:50 
 Greek Debt - Robin O'Reliant
Might be a problem if you needed hospital treatment as well, witchdoctors didn't have a great success rate.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 21:23 
 Greek Debt - Robin O'Reliant
A good overview here of who owes what to who -

www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/10/22/opinion/20111023_DATAPOINTS.html?ref=opinion
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 23:04 
 Greek Debt - Suppose
>> But there wouldn't be a forum.... in fact there'd be no Internet.
>>

That's one way of getting shot of all the whingers on here.

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 Sun 23 Oct 11 23:09 
 Greek Debt - Zero
>> >> But there wouldn't be a forum.... in fact there'd be no Internet.
>> >>
>>
>> That's one way of getting shot of all the whingers on here.

Who would be left for me to have a pop at?

It would just be me and my disciple from Norwich.

A simple lad, but faithful
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 23:14 
 Greek Debt - CGNorwich
Truly I am humbled by such praise.
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 21:57 
 Greek Debt - Dutchie
Good points Suppose.Lets go back to caves.You find the strongest caracter be sat near the fire.>:)
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 22:00 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
>> rather than in a rat race trying to show off to your fellow forum members that you own the latest

BMW, - Not got
Merc, -Not got
iPad, -Not got
iPhone, - Not got
X-box, - Not got
or Panasonic 40" plasma TV. - Not got

Im virtually a caveman :-p

Ugg ugg

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 Sun 23 Oct 11 22:33 
 Greek Debt - Dutchie
You good make that into a song FoR and make same money.>:)
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 22:44 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
About time I did, make sum money that is.

Could make a fortune writing, I have plenty to say, but then maybe nobody listen lol
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 Sun 23 Oct 11 23:08 
 Greek Debt - Suppose
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>> Im virtually a caveman :-p
>>

We know. Maybe not just virtually, but perhaps literally.

As you said last week, without scrounging off some relatives, you would not be able to afford your laptoy (deliberate spelling) to post on this forum. Fancy joining the beggars asking for money to buy a cup of tea?
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      3  
 Sun 23 Oct 11 23:13 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
Thanks.
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 Mon 24 Oct 11 09:30 
 Greek Debt - Iffy
Suppose,

While I enjoy the forthright nature of your posts, I suggest you don't put down a deposit at the next General Election.

Unless you are prepared to lose it.

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 Mon 24 Oct 11 10:55 
 Greek Debt - VxFan
Suppose, do you take some kind of pleasure in belittling and mocking people less fortunate than yourself? A high number of your posts seem to be along that theme.

Had this been a pub and not an internet forum, I suspect you'd have a swollen lip, a couple of black eyes and a pair of swollen plums by now.

If you are unable to post without ridiculing someone then sod off somewhere else.

Vx.
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      9  
 Mon 24 Oct 11 13:12 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
Let him, he said more about himself than about me.

I forgive him, lifes too short.

Since Im now the teaboy, shall I put kettle on?
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 Mon 24 Oct 11 19:14 
 Greek Debt - Manatee
I never got the hang of virtual tea, though I get through at least 6 cups a day of the actual kind. Thanks anyway.

I'm not with the programme either, having none of the things on the list.
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 Mon 24 Oct 11 20:20 
 Greek Debt - Stuu
In that case, with me being too poor to have my own cuppa, gives us a shout when you stick the kettle on :-)
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 Mon 24 Oct 11 20:25 
 Greek Debt - Robin O'Reliant
>> I never got the hang of virtual tea, though I get through at least 6
>> cups a day of the actual kind. Thanks anyway.
>>
Six cups a day?

Bleedin' amateur, I do that at one sitting.
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 Mon 24 Oct 11 20:39 
 Greek Debt - Manatee
I said at least ;-)
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