...anyone used one? I've seen one in Focus (no relation) for about £7 which includes a length of flexible pipe and a little cutter. The pipe is in the garage and is 15mm copper I think. You cut away the section with the burst in it and press the new section onto the ends.
Does it work? Would a non-DIY-expert find it fairly easy to use?
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Ok for a temporary repair, but a "proper" copper section would be best. And not difficult, (probably cheaper in the long run).
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>> Ok for a temporary repair but a "proper" copper section would be best. And not
>> difficult (probably cheaper in the long run).
How would you do it with proper copper?
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Cut out the damaged section. Cut a new piece of tube. Clean the ends of the tube to be joined (4) with wire wool, and smear on a bit of LaCo flux. Slip on the new section using capilliary couplings (with a smear of flux in 'em). Warm up the joint with a gas torch or similar, apply solder until a ring of the stuff appears at the end of the coupling. Let it cool nauurally. It's really easy, though it might not sound it.
Make sure the inside of the pipe is dry (or at least isn't wet with standing/dripping water) before soldering, BTW.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 17:40
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to do it with proper copper one would
1/ cut out the damaged section
2/ cut a new section to fit
3/ slide a standard flux fitting (not a yorkshire - they dont slide) over the end of each pipe
4/ offer your new pipe into the gap and slide the fittings half over the ends holding it in place
5/ flux solder the joints in place
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Thanks chaps - the soldering does indeed make it sound difficult, and buying the various bits and pieces that I haven't got would I imagine take the cost to significantly more than £7. I feel it's a skill I should learn, but I'm probably going to wimp out this time.
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>> I'm probably going
>> to wimp out this time.
>>
In that case get the local handyman to do it, it doesnt need the skills of a (expensive) plumber.
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Sounds like it uses compression joints. All I do with a burst pipe is chop it away and use a compression joints anyway it is not the proper way of doing it but it would take me for ever to solder a joint.
It really should work fine but make sure when you cut out the old burst pipe it is cut straight or it won't work.
I have never done any plubming in my life and replumbed in a new sink in the bathroom, ok I had a leak and it took a me a while to fix that but it was very easy to with compression joints.
A couple of compression joints and some cheap 15mm copper piping from B&Q it should be as easy as any DIY kit.
Edit I do not want to nark any plumber with my comment there, the bathroom sink did tank me an entire afternoon and evening and I wouldn't know where to begin with install something like a boiler or water tank :).
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 17:24
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>> I have never done any plubming in my life and replumbed in a new sink in the bathroom
Does replumbing a bathroom not count as plumbing ;-) Even if you never trained.
Beware compression joints in the home if not fitted properly. I know someone who came home to find their home flooded because one had not been fitted properly. We had a bit of a leak from one before now too. No longer have that house though.
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Its well over a year now so should be ok but you are right and maybe there would be consequences on the house insurance. There is always people at home here though.
When I did it I think there was one which wasn't fitted properly and it gave way after about ten minutes. There is a bit of a knack to making sure it seals correctly but I think the easiest thing is to make sure the pipes are cut evenly.
I worked out it would have been cheaper to have called a plumber as it would have taken them less than two hours to do the job but I had fun and learnt a lot while doing it.
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Not the cheapest way but the easiest now is push-fit in either copper or plastic (has o-rings inside). I haven't yet come across a push fit that will slide right along the pipe to allow a section of rigid copper to be slotted in an existing run hence, I guess, the bit of flexy in the Focus kit.
They do slip couplers in copper for this but sometimes draining down enough to solder is a pain.
If you do use push fits it's important to know if they are removeable or a once only type as you can't take off the once only type to re-do an incorrect length etc.
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20 years ago i helped open a cafe and one of my jobs was to do the plumbing,back in those days everything was solder so i did all the joints and nearly every joint leaked,
suffice to say from that day to this plumbing has frightened me in a getting wet way.
Certainly the way forward these days is compression joints and even i can fit these :-)
weirdly, when i went back to a certain store a year or so back to buy some more copper piping it was all gone,apparently someone bought all the stock as it was worth more once they took it to a non ferrous dealer and weighed it all in as scrap
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>> Does replumbing a bathroom not count as plumbing ;-) Even if you never trained.
Not when it takes over 6 hours and had lots of leaks it doesent.
My prefered plumbing method is soldered joints using yorkshire fittings where ever possible. But I will use compression fittings ( I smear a thin layer of silicon sealant - Fernox leak seal to be precise - over the olives before I assemble the fittings. - it works for me 100% every time all the time)
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It had one leak. It was difficult as the old pipes did not reach which meant replacing the entire lot which came off a spur from a bath. I then had to fit the new taps to the new sink with complicated levers the the plug hole and then fit that. My tools, a cheapo £20 drill, a Bosch screw driver and a £1.99 Woolies adjustable spanner.
The final job is very neat and done to a very high standard, it just took me about 6 times longer than a plumber could do it in.
I think the big skill in plumbing these days is planning and fitting central heating systems, they are engineerng projects in their own right. I think dealing with lead pipes is also one of the most difficult manual skill I have ever seen in action.
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Kitchen sink, bathroom basin.
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Are you sure the pipe has burst, and it's not just a pushed-apart joint? that's what often happens.
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>> Are you sure the pipe has burst and it's not just a pushed-apart joint?
Yes - it runs down the side of the garage and the burst is pretty obvious. Or it was after I turned on the valve upstream and got hit by a jet of water :-)
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I remember someone on another site asking about how to warm up their garage because of a similar problem, and I suggested all you needed was a valve to turn off the water in cold weather. I can now confirm that it isn't :-(
The problem is that the water downstream of the valve stays in the pipe after turning the valve off. It would probably be ok if you could somehow extract the water.
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>> The problem is that the water downstream of the valve stays in the pipe after
>> turning the valve off.
Dear me. Turning a stop valve off without draining the run will make it more likely that you'll get a burst (although the SV will mitigate the disaster).
>> It would probably be ok if you could somehow extract the water.
This is normally done via a drain cock, or even a tap!
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>> >> It would probably be ok if you could somehow extract the water.
>>
>> This is normally done via a drain cock or even a tap!
Well I left the tap on the end of the pipe fully open, so that doesn't work. I'm intrigued by a drain cock though - is it something I could fit?
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>> a drain cock though - is it something I could fit?
You could fit one of these, without any "plumbing" tools: 15mm self-cutting drain cock: www.bes.co.uk/products/098.asp (near the bottom). Put it on a low point in the run. Close SV. Open cock. Open tap.
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interesting point that
i turned the water off at work the night before last as a big freeze was coming and opened a tap to let the pressure out of the system,i was warned you werent supposed to do that but i said well if the water freezes and expands then it will now have room to do it in the pipe
no reply was forthcoming to that
......to focus.
Last edited by: old grouser on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:08
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Firstly check whether FT has identified a pushed-apart joint.
Then, if not, don't waste your money on that. Instead spend a similar amount of money on a pipe cutter (which will see the job done in 2 minutes flat, rather than taking hours with a hacksaw - remember you've got four cuts to make.
www.screwfix.com/prods/29457/Hand-Tools/Plumbing-Tools/Pipe-Cutters/Autocut-Pipe-Cutter-15mm
(I've never tried the cheaper version www.screwfix.com/prods/12468/Hand-Tools/Plumbing-Tools/Pipe-Cutters/Monument-Tools-Automatic-Pipe-Cutter-15mm but it'll probably work almost as well for your little job.)
Cut out around the broken bit about 4 inches, then buy two compression fittings (a pack of 10 from screwfix is probably cheaper than just two from B&Q)
www.screwfix.com/prods/35477/Plumbing/Compression-Fittings/Flowflex-Straight-Coupling-15mm-Pack-of-10
and get hold of a bit of 15mm pipe the right length (you must have bit lying around somewhere... or a nice plumber's merchant will give you a bit).
Don't put sealant on a compression fitting (foul stuff that fernox RF, you recommended it to me previously - brilliant for making temporary repairs, but you shouldn't use it on a compression fitting - problem is that it may not be the compression fitting keeping the water in (with fernox for backup), but actually the sealant - the compression not having compressed). Make them hand tight, then give them a quarter turn to nip them closed. If there's still a little weeping turn it a bit tighter. I've never known a compression fitting start to leak.
Don't be tempted by speedifit plastic "compression-type" joints. They come with a 10 year guarantee, which if you think about it is rubbish. You don't replumb your house ever 10 years, do you?
And whilst soldered joints are doubtless "better" in the hands of a professional, in the hands of an amateur, they're not!
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:11
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...extract the water...
Which allows me the first mention on the new forum of my static caravan in leafy North Yorkshire.
The pipes in that are pumped out using a small compressor - a 12v car tyre inflator will do the job.
Obviously, this is dependent on both ends of the pipe being open, which might not be the case in Focus's garage.
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>> a pipe cutter
Those are good, better than the adjustable sort, which are a PITA on existing pipe runs. You need a couple or three, though.
>> rather than taking hours with a hacksaw
It doesn't take long, but a hacksaw isn't wonderful for some jobs as copper "sawdust" can get into the piping.
>> Don't put sealant on a compression fitting
You can use a drop of linseed oil for lubrication.
>> And whilst soldered joints are doubtless "better" in the hands of a professional in the
>> hands of an amateur they're not!
They're ever so easy, really - just use Laco or similarly good flux:
www.amazon.co.uk/Laco-Regular-Soldering-Flux-22103/dp/B0002JT1Q8
and keep things clean. Don't overheat the joint, it only needs to be hot enough to let the solder run in, not red-hot.
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you need more than clean. The copper needs to shine at you.
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Ah! Laco is a nice agressive (on the metal) flux. It's really good. Don't get any where you don't want the solder to run. It's non-toxic, and doesn't do nasty things to one's skin. Try it, really!
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By using a sequence of stopcocks and taps I can drain the pipe to my outside tap. I won't bore you with the details but the secret is letting air in to replace the water.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:26
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Wot ? Like in a submarine ?
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yes - his house kinda floats with negative bouyancy.
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>> yes - his house kinda floats with negative bouyancy.
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Negative is bad news, neutral is ideal.
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>> Wot ? Like in a submarine ?
>>
Same principal, except in a submarine the secret is to keep the water on the outside!
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Guess so. You wouldn't want a burst anything on one of those really.
Last edited by: Ron D'bout on Tue 23 Feb 10 at 18:31
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>> Don't overheat the joint, it only needs to be hot enough to let the solder run in, not red-hot.
The solder (the lead-free sort anyway) melts at 228°C, the flame on a blowtorch is 1970°C so you don't need to heat it for very long at all. When you see the flux turn liquid is about right.
Oh, and DON'T flux inside the joint, only brush the thinnest smear of it around the outside of the pipe.
The pipe will get too hot to touch for about 15 inches either side of the joint and stay that way for 10 minutes, here speaks the voice of experience ;-)
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>> DON'T flux inside the joint
Why? I normally rub a bit inside using the tip of my finger. Something to do with overfilling the joint?
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>then buy two compression fittings
no good if you cant spring the section apart far enough to fit new pipe into the section you removed. You need at least 30mm of "spring apart" to use two compression fittings.
and as far as the fernox goes, you used it too thickly. It works perfectly for me 100% all the time.
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>>Does it work? Would a non-DIY-expert find it fairly easy to use?
>>
K.I.S.S.
www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/repairing_a_burst_pipe.htm
The SIMPLE copper repair. ( and the alternative plastic job)
and some video etc.
tinyurl.com/yzf8b6b
Your move :-)
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Burst pipe repair kit
Probably the best thing a DIYer could buy would be a braded hose with compression fittings or speedfit fittings at either end.
Why, because you can repair a joint whilst water is poring out using compression fittings or speed fit fittings, you can't with solder.
Then, you call your local handyman and get him to do the job properly.
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Time for me to peer over the parapet and own up to being part-way through a level 2 tech certificate college course in plumbing then!
Keep your finger over the burst pipe until I finish the bit about repairing leaks, then I'll be round to properly solder in a new section ;-)
Seriously though, it's a complete change of direction for me after driving for a living in one form or another for the last 15 years. I'm enjoying it greatly and I hope it leads on to greater things.
And when I complete the course I'll need a van! (Motoring link - do we still have to do them?)
Last edited by: Dave_TD {P} on Wed 24 Feb 10 at 00:06
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>> Burst pipe repair kit
My dad was a Plumber, worked for Manchester Corporation in the years before copper pipe was invented. He taught me how to solder a copper pipe into the end of a lead pipe using a hardwood bobbin to splay out the lead. I can still do it but there's no demand now. He used to wipe the molten solder with his bare thumb to neaten it...I always used a piece of card !...Wimp !
I keep a box of 10mm and 15mm fittings together with a length of both pipe sizes in the workshop........saved me and the neighbours a few times out of hours.
The outside tap split it's pipe over the cold spell. needed to turn off on the pavement but it was all iced up so I crimped the pipe before the burst a couple of times with a mole wrench to lessen the flow, cut it and stuck a compession stop-end on. It's held up to now.
Ted
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>>and as far as the fernox goes, you used it too thickly. It works perfectly for me 100% all
>>the time
I dare say that it *works* perfectly well. It is an engineering point, though, related to the risk on the occasion when it fails to work. Compression fittings are designed to work on their own. They do not need muck with them.
Indeed, if you are installing gas piping, then you are specifically doing it wrongly (probably illegally but I don't want to stick my neck out on that) if you are using something in addition to the olive.
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Fixed!
Went for the burst pipe repair kit as mentioned in OP except it was £13 - not sure where I got £7 from. That included a pipe cutter and a length of flexible pipe with compression fit ends, but I thought the pipe was too big and obvious for a small burst so I also bought a short rigid section with nuts on each end for compression fitting. Total cost approx £20.
(They did had have separate pipe cutters, but the cheap one was too big to rotate all the way around the pipe (which was still attached to the wall), and the smaller one was £17.)
So I managed to cut out the burst section, which was about an inch long, surprisingly easily. The instructions on the nutted pipe section said to then slide one of the nuts over the cut pipe. That's where the problems started - I was sure my pipes were 16mm as there was no way the 15mm nut was going to go over it.
Eventually I wondered if the ice pressure had enlarged the pipe near the burst as well as actually causing the burst, so cut a bit more away. This time the nut just about went onto the pipe, as did the 'olive' although it wasn't easy. Had to do the same on the other section of pipe. Then attached the nuts to the rigid section and did it all up - job done.
Only took about 4 hours...
Last edited by: Focus on Mon 1 Mar 10 at 12:54
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>>Only took about 4 hours...
It would have taken me about 15 minutes and cost me nothing. Next time will be easier (though I hope there is no next burst!).
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>> >>Only took about 4 hours...
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>> It would have taken me about 15 minutes and cost me nothing.
Sorry, I meant " 'Only' " and missed off the smiley - it wasn't a boast!
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Sorry, and mine wasn't a boast either...
Practice makes perfect.
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>> Practice makes perfect.
...and not having to raid the local DIY store every time you do a job around the house must be nice as well :-)
Last edited by: Focus on Mon 1 Mar 10 at 13:45
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I have done loads of plumbing. It would have taken me about 30 minutes, inlcuding getting the bits together, and making a cup of tea, and admiring the workmanship afterwards.
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What you need is a nice big double garage to keep all the bits in.... a single will never be large enough. ;-)
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>> What you need is a nice big double garage to keep all the bits in....
Yep, it's a double, and it is full of bits - unfortunately they always seem to be the wrong ones...
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Just keep trying and buy more bits.
I've got a double garage, two lock-ups, a full loft and two rooms full of stuff.... and now I usually have what I need but not always!!!!
One of my friends even comes to me before he goes to B+Q ( The largest in the country? ) because I have more stock of useful bits.
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I have a single garage sized workshop/store just to maintain the stuff in the double garage... and that doesn't include the cars.
I like a bit of plumbing so have enough fittings to last the rest of my life. Real sense of achievement not having to call a plumber in at barrister rates.
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burst pipe repair kit - Old Navy
