Straight from the British branch of Pravda.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15382019
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They won't let you have another vote Gordon.
If people can't get it in to their heads that politicians haven't got that much power so be it.
There is far to much vested interest to keep this club going.You never know pigs might fly.{>)
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We need a constitution like Switzerland, where a sufficiently large petition can force a referendum. Of course the scaremongers will claim that this would mean referendums every five minutes. In reality it doesn't, but the big decisions are left to the Swiss people.
And of course, they don't just vote - they discuss it first, and campaign for yes/no. By the time the vote actually takes place, people are clued-up enough to make an informed decision that really matches their own views.
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>>We need a constitution like Switzerland, where a sufficiently large petition can force a referendum. Of course the scaremongers will claim that this would mean referendums every five minutes. In reality it doesn't, but the big decisions are left to the Swiss people.<<
Now that sounds like a damn good idea to me, we could call it something like ... Democracy!
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>> And of course, they don't just vote - they discuss it first, and campaign for
>> yes/no. By the time the vote actually takes place, people are clued-up enough to make
>> an informed decision that really matches their own views.
And therein lies the problem for the UK; how to secure that degree of political engagement.
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vested interest >>
Thats the bit that rules everything.
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By now someone here should have told us that the people are too ignorant to know what's good for them, the same ones not too ignorant to vote for and pay for it all.
Good suggestion above Londoner.
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Ive long thought it would be nice to have a mature exploration of the way our economy interacts with others, the EU included. Unfortunately pro-europeans dont like examination of their ideology and will attack anyone who questions it.
If indeed this 17 state fiscal intergration goes ahead and as is expected, the 17 state block votes, it effectively means what they say goes and nothing we think here will mean a thing.
Its unfortunate but democracy only matters to some people, some of the time and the will of the UK population is largely irrelevant to those who pull the levers of power.
I was speaking to a russian girl a while back and we were talking about corruption in Russia - she said its all rigged, the people know it, but unlike the British, are smart enough to know its now out of our hands, so we go with the flow and concentrate on living.
Interesting viewpoint that may soon be forced upon us.
I for one look at the europhiles and laugh. I will be sure to wave at them as they go down with their sinking ship. Attaching yourself to a policy based on ideology rather than common sense is moronic and they deserve everything they get. It may get choppy for us for a while, but we aint on their boat, for that im truely thankful.
Last edited by: FoR on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 14:22
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Well.
We did have a referendum on joining Europe (long before I could vote). The problem is that you cannot put votes like that to the people regularly as you cannot change being in Europe every year... or five.
On the other hand, look at the outcry when there *are* repeated referendums on the same point. "The public are being told to vote again and to get the right answer this time."
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 14:27
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Judging by the complete incoherence of the Get Out lot and their utter inability to know the numbers/ facts.. and present a case for leaving that makes economic sense..
to suggest that MPs know any better is risible.
Most frankly object to filling in a form to claim their expenses as it is too difficult - or can't abide by simple rules (see Fox)..
I would , however . say this > Anyone who thinks that now is the time to seriously consider leaving teh EU is totally ignorant of the gravity of teh current financial situation..
It confirms my view that most MPs do not do what they should do - review laws/hold Executive to account.. and are looking for something to fill their time.
To suggest leaving the ECU will improve that situation is a joke.
Rant over.
Last edited by: madf on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 14:39
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The current financial situation certainly isnt helped by the eurozone countries who cant get their act together.
The gravity of the situation comes from people putting doctrine and ideology before common sense and practical management. Had these europhile morons actually stopped dreaming of their eurostate and actually designed the nuts and bolts of the euro with far more thought about how to merge so many varied economies, we may not have witnessed all this silliness and panic.
Why it is I should then be asked to believe in these people if they cant get something as important as economic common sense right? They want more power, justified by failures, yeah, sure, give them more responsibility, great idea, they just dont get it.
I see you havent made the economic case for staying in, infact I wouldnt mind seeing the figures for all three options, so you have the floor...
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Well - that's your opinion - there are, however, other views!
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>> Well.
>>
>> We did have a referendum on joining Europe (long before I could vote).
>>
No we didn't!
What we had was was a referendum on whether we should stay in Europe - we were already in at that time.
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...What we had was was a referendum on whether we should stay in Europe - we were already in at that time...
And it was sold to us a trading alliance.
Not the bloated, interfering, pointless bureaucracy it is now.
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Not the bloated, interfering, pointless bureaucracy it is now
Of course in the UK we don't have any bloated beaureacrats..
The BBC is undermanned and underwomanned, the HSA rarely interfere and Councils are all efficient..
It's great to crticise the EC. Most of the problems are due to UK civil servants gold plating rules and then implementing them like little tin pot dictators.
Remember the fuss about selling in imperial measures? All home grown..
I would love to think leaving the EC would rid us of idiotic laws at a stroke.. They demonstrably will not. British idiots are as efficient -or more so - at red tape.
Some muppet posted somewhere that EC setasides were stopping the UK feeding itself.. a thing the UK has not done for well over a century....
Does anyone seriously think that the LDs or Labour would agree to the removal of the HRA or workers' rights legislation? Without the agreement of one , nothing will change.
I see this as the self indulgent action of a bunch of obsessed little Englanders who know they can achive nothing but are doing it to make a show,,
Last edited by: madf on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 15:32
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>>I would love to think leaving the EC would rid us of iiotic laws at a stroke.. They demonstrably will not. british idiots are as efficient -or more so - at red tape.
My experience chimes with this.
Before coming to Northern Polyversity, I worked in a European project, where three British universties were supplying parts, to support a project. Among the partners on the project were a company with offices in the UK, and Southern Germany.
One set of the company's engineers were pompous, difficult, obstructive, and pedantic, and the German engineers were an absolute joy to work with.
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Leave our pompous idiots alone, if we didnt have them, there would be nobody to work at the council.
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You certainly haven't made an economic case for staying in.
The EU has a bloated bureacracy and doesn't seem to care that the UK is cutting spending. We are a net contributor to the EU and they want an even greater contribution. The EC consists of failed and unelected politicians with their snouts in the money troughs. The Welsh Windbag and his family are three. Baroness Ashton, the EU Foreign Secretary, is enlarging her empire, and is getting her budget increased to duplicate the functions of other countries.
It isn't just about imperial measurements, but a whole host of interference in the affairs of other countries that cannot be justified.
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Having our own meddling bureaucrats is not a good argument for having another lot in Brussels.
In government, as in so many other things, less is more.
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Ah but Robbie dear boy, we should be thanking them for it.
I hear they recently spent many millions building a nice centre you can visit and worship at the EU altar.
I just realised, I have no idea who the high priest of Europe is atm, I might pray to Merkel tonight, atleast she has some notion of restraint with money, for a european that is...
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What an interesting debate (with a touch of poignancy) to be having on Trafalgar Day.
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Oh thats so racist and antieuropean. Trafalgar Day indeed, tut tut.
What about St Rompuy Day, now thats one to look forward to. I hear predictions are it could be a little damp though.
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>> Oh thats so racist and antieuropean. Trafalgar Day indeed, tut tut.
>>
>> What about St Rompuy Day, now thats one to look forward to. I hear predictions
>> are it could be a little damp though.
>>
Interesting response, FoR. I think that you may have the wrong end of the stick.
Just what point did you think that I was trying to make?
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I didnt grab the stick. I was practicing my pro-european ranting voice.
Grrrrr.
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I was just mentioning Trafalgar Day as an apt time to be discussing our sovereignty (or lack of it) on the anniversary of a great and decisive battle in a war where we stood up to a Tyrant.
Seems we have to do it every couple of generations.
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>> Straight from the British branch of Pravda.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15382019
What you fail to grasp is that we voted for pro EU parties, so they are merely carryiung out our wishes, proxy votes if you will.
Like it or not, you cant have it your personal way. If you voted for an anti Eu party, it didn't get elected, sorry. That's what a democracy is about.
You would soon have something to moan about if you were living in a dictatorship.
And if you didn't vote, for whatever trumped up reason, you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to moaning about government or events that come out of it.
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People have this illusion because we are on a island that we are seperate.
I'm afraid no,bussiness is interlinked and we are not a offshoot of a American state.
Politicians will say anything and the truth usually comes last in my opinion.
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>> What you fail to grasp is that we voted for pro EU parties, so they
>> are merely carryiung out our wishes, proxy votes if you will.
Well up to a point Zeddo. A fair number of Tories were elected on messages that were, by varying degrees, sceptical or downright anti about Europe. And the Tory party as a whole is far more anti EU than the rest of the MPs
Add in the fact that a lot of them will have to find/contest new seats next tim because of the boundary changes and the need to rebel is obvious.
The Nick Robinson articel linked to the OP news piece is an interesting read.
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Is Cameron that anti European I wonder? Maybe a show for he British electrated when he meets Angela Mertel the words sit down boy and listen comes to mind..;)
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>>What you fail to grasp is that we voted for pro EU parties,
Not much choice really, unless you say hang everything else and vote for a single-issue party like UKIP or in fact one of a number of parties with no chance of a majority; so I don't consider myself disqualified from wanting to be out of the EU.
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There was no credible choice of an anti-EU party.
UKIP mean well, but they are not ever going to win an election against the established lot.
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matters not, they wont be a credible party unless everyone votes for them
Sorry but nearly everyone had a chance to vote for a "Out of the EU" ticket.,
If you didn't, you may not like this but its true, your anti EU complaints are completely invalid and you are just moaning for the sake of it. You opinion is worth zilch.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 17:00
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If you mean the vote on the fraudulent 1975 proposition for a "common market" - I voted against it then, as I was reasonably well aware of the hidden agenda to a European super-state.
There WERE some of us who saw behind the façade of smoke & mirrors put up by the phony Heath & his side-kicks.
The then, Treaty of Rome, had anyone bothered to read it, made little secret of the pan- European plan.
Frankly, it is not unusual for rabid Europhiles to plaster their opponents with offensive labels and to decry their opinions as "idiotic".
It would appear that certain posters here are employing that well-worn tactic.
My opinion (and that of others who are of a like mind) is not worth zilch!
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 17:24
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Nope all you are doing is moaning about it. Nothing else just moaning. That's why its worth zilch, you have done BA to change the situation.
If you had the balls to vote for a EU out party you opinion would earn some respect. You didnt so it dont.
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Any one person's opinion is worth zilch.
I reckon there is a will among the populace to leave the EU.
For us to leave, that popular will needs to be translated to a political will.
At present, it appears about 60 MPs are looking to leave, or at least put the question to a popular vote.
That political will may grow, or it may wither.
Neither will happen quickly.
But to answer the OP's question, it is a democratic process.
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>> Any one person's opinion is worth zilch.
>>
>> I reckon there is a will among the populace to leave the EU.
probably is but they cant be bothered to do anything about it, moaning will do.
>> For us to leave, that popular will needs to be translated to a political will.
far easier to moan.
>> At present, it appears about 60 MPs are looking to leave, or at least put
>> the question to a popular vote.
>>
>> That political will may grow, or it may wither.
At the moment 60 MPs is a drip in the ocean, probably just doing it for sound bites.
>> Neither will happen quickly.
>>
>> But to answer the OP's question, it is a democratic process.
Indeed, you get the party and outcomes you vote for.
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The point you have failed to grasp, to use your somewhat patronising style, is that elections aren't about a single issue.
And democracy shouldn't be just about voting. If enough Conservative (for example) voters moan enough, (to use your categorisation again), Dave Snooty and his pals will adapt their rhetoric without breaking step.
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And the point you have failed to grasp that if people felt sufficiently strongly about it they would vote for a party with a strong Anti EU stance, and most wards had that chance
And if they voted in sufficient number for that party then the main parties (who all have the same basic European manifesto) would be shocked into action to capture that voting share next time, wouldn't they? How would they do that I ask you, if that nots patronising, I am sure you can work that out.
Dave Snooty and his pals (as you put it ) have to do nothing about the anti EU moaning, because it does not translate into votes. As per the second paragraph.
Got it now?
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>>Got it now?
Zero,
I won't continue to use your rather insulting style, it doesn't sit well with me.
I can't agree that your idea of voting for a minority single issue party, or even a broader based but obviously minority, party is anything but futile. For there to be any chance of reversing an already advanced level of absorption into the Euro superstate, the main parties have to change direction.
I'm not ignoring your point that more votes for UKIP might make them think a bit - it's a good one, I just don't think it will work, and certainly not very fast. They need to hear it when there isn't an election - we've already seen the main parties flannel their way round this point in the run up to the last one.
By the way, I'm not reacting to the current problems - I happen to think, and have done for twenty years, that political union will not work for us and without it you cannot have economic union, which is where we are heading.
If we carry on on the current trajectory, we will, without any doubt at all, end up with the Euro at some point and then the ball will be well and truly over the wall and we'll never get it back.
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>> >>Got it now?
>>
>> Zero,
>>
>> I won't continue to use your rather insulting style, it doesn't sit well with me.
Not insulting, annoyed, goading, and lot dismissive,
And here's why. Has anyone on here, who is bleating and moaning about their lack of constitutional rights, about being ignored, about the the fact that we are in the EU, actually done anything about it.
Has anyone actively engaged in the democratic process, written to your MP, even better attended his constituency surgery to demand he listen to your wishes. Did any of you actually attend the party rallies? read the candidates leaflets? talk to candidates on the doorstep or hustings? Joined the party even. Anything in fact that would make your point of view known? Voted for another way
Probably not. And you think spouting off on here about your (collective "your" not aimed at anyone in particular) rights is going to change things? It aint,. Your (collective "your" again) just a noisy moaner who ain't gonna back it up. For that you (collective you) dont deserve to be heard. Put up or shut up.
>> I can't agree that your idea of voting for a minority single issue party, or
>> even a broader based but obviously minority, party is anything but futile.
That thought will continue to assure the futility of any non mainstream party.
>> not very fast. They need to hear it when there isn't an election - we've
>> already seen the main parties flannel their way round this point in the run up
>> to the last one.
If you think they can flannel when they are under the utmost scrutiny, election time, you got no chance of your voice being heard when they aint, Mid term is the worse time to get anything changed
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 18:55
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>> Not insulting, annoyed, goading, and lot dismissive,
Dismissive = insulting, to me, but let's not split hairs.
You make some good points as usual, among the value laden language and baiting.
Debating, or moaning as you call it, on here doesn't achieve much on its own.
Unfortunately an influential minority make too much money out of the bureaucracy. A revolution might be needed ;-)
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A recent opinion poll indicated that over seventy per cent of people want the UK to withdraw from the EU.
I suspect that Cameron et al don't wish to withdraw because they have their eye on a lucrative post in the EU at some future date. He posed as Eurosceptic in order for the Conservatives to be elected and thwart UKIP.
Interesting that the Labour Party used to be violently anti-EU - particularly Peter Hain - but they were also beguiled by the prospect of untold wealth if they hitch their horses to the EU bandwagon.
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I dont recall the euro going down the Greek swanny at the time of the general election.
Besides, much as many in politics try to forget, the Lib Dems and Tories were fielding a EU referendum on their ticket in varying forms.
It turns out this was another lie by Lib Dems ( another well we didnt think we would ever have power etc ) and alot of the Tory MPs thought they were campaigning on it, now top brass has buried it, so I understand their anger as it makes them look disingenuous, hence the trouble in the Commons.
If you were one of the many Tory MPs who knocked on doors promising a referendum, those people who voted for you would fully expect you to do exactly as you said you would.
I saw a few quotes from those signed up who said they would sacrifice their careers to follow through on their promises - I cant help but like that in someone.
What is also rather irritating about the pro-europeans is that they gloss over the simple fact that any referendum on the EU would at the very earliest be in the next parliament and nothing other than a vote on whether or not we have the chance to have the referendum will happen in this period of government.
But they talk about it as if its going to be arranged to capitalise on the current situation with the euro which is infact a stupid thing to say, unless they think the euro will still be in strife in 2014+. Doh.
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Approx half our trade is with Europe . If we leave the EC, it will of course continue.
But.. does anyone really think - beacuse we are no part of the EC - we will not have to ensure much of our business can not follow EC regulations? of course they will not need to follow them all, but some they will have to..
As far as a staying in EU business plan, I have no need to give one. The Government does that every year. It's called a Budget:-0
The anti EU brigade don't, never have and quote huge savings.... Our net EU contribution for 2010/11 is £7.7 billion.. A nice saving to have - but not budget making..
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Well if you cant make an economic case for staying, dont ask others to make one for leaving. Simples.
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>> Well if you cant make an economic case for staying, dont ask others to make
>> one for leaving. Simples.
Not
You don't have to make any case for staying, cos you are already there. You only have to make a case if you are changing or introducing something.
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Only a fool blindly accepts the status quo without examining if it actually continues to work for them. As you were.
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All government is foolish then. Most of it runs, and you may not like to accept it, runs very well on the status quo, without a moments thought of justifying it.
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Er we elections every 5 years, maybe you didnt notice.
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Yes. I dont like some of them but yes.
We just to got too used to Labour being in power, it started to feel like a default settling.
Me, I like things being shaken up, maybe not BNP shaken up ill admit that, but I think europe will look very different in 5 years time and when times get hard, people take more interest in self-determination which doesnt seem so important when everyones got it pretty good.
Id bet a vote for the EU issue would get higher voter turn out than any general election, which in a democracy can only be a good step forward when we have such terrible disengagement and voter turn out. Truth is, a vote on this issue has far more effect than voting for a political party.
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>> Not
>>
>> You don't have to make any case for staying, cos you are already there. You
>> only have to make a case if you are changing or introducing something.
Absolute nonsense. The majority of the population wish to withdraw, and the Europhiles are intent on maintaining the status quo. It is up to them to make the case for remaining.
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>> >> Not
>> >>
>> >> You don't have to make any case for staying, cos you are already there.
>> You
>> >> only have to make a case if you are changing or introducing something.
>>
>> Absolute nonsense. The majority of the population wish to withdraw, and the Europhiles are intent
>> on maintaining the status quo. It is up to them to make the case for
>> remaining.
Dont be ridiculous. They have to do NOTHING. Those who want change have to do something.
>>
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>>
>> Dont be ridiculous. They have to do NOTHING. Those who want change have to do
>> something.
I gather logic is not your strong point.
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It is, but it appears not to be yours.
Let me explain, if you want something to change you have to make a case for it. Otherwise nothing happens because no-one has to do anything.
Thats logic isnt it?
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>> It is, but it appears not to be yours.
>>
>> Let me explain, if you want something to change you have to make a case
>> for it. Otherwise nothing happens because no-one has to do anything.
>>
>> Thats logic isnt it?
Not at all. You wilfully fail to understand the point that others are making.
It's akin to customers being dissatisfied and wanting to leave in droves, but the dealer won't dissuade them because it's up to them to make a case for leaving. Nonetheless, they leave and he has to close.
The same analogy applies if everyone in the EU got their act together. It's the intransigence of the politicians that keeps the EU together. The majority of the people want out of the EU. The majority of people in Germany - over seventy per cent according to Forbes Magazine - want to return to the DM. Indeed, two years ago Forbes Magazine forecast the demise of the Euro. It seems that it's likely to come true.
Last edited by: Robbie34 on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 19:21
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>>The majority of people in Germany - over seventy per cent according to Forbes Magazine - want to return to the DM<<
My cousin mentioned that. She also said Greeks are secretly hated in the quiet way Germans hate people, she said the recklessness of the southern european countries doesnt sit well with the people who have to foot the bill.
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>> It's akin to customers being dissatisfied and wanting to leave in droves, but the dealer
>> won't dissuade them because it's up to them to make a case for leaving. Nonetheless,
>> they leave and he has to close.
The customer did something. they provided the justification for change, caused change.
if the customer did nothing, the dealer does not have to change
cant you see that?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 19:38
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It was a poor example. Heres an easy one, bald example but its your silly logic, not mine.
Is it ok to beat your OH up so long as they dont complain? Or should one scrutinise the actions of both?
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Oh come on Stu, thats such a silly example that I shan't even bother to answer it.
Second thoughts, in fact I will because you have given me the perfect example
Society has already scrutinised that one and decided Its an offence. Legally and morally . Do you suggest we have to review that every 5 years? do you really think that we could ever legalise violence like that.
Its a prefect example of where the status quo does not have to be constantly justified.
Its also a perfect example of "if you do nothing - nothing changes" If you don't complain to the right people the beatings continue. If you complain on here your getting beaten up, nothing will change.
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I applied your logic to another symbiotic union, it has nothing to do with the subject but the application of your logic, I thought you would get that much, perhaps it stretched you abit.
In this case, applying your logic that the one who wants the status quo to change is the only one who must justify their position, the violent partner need not because thats how things already are.
Yes if you do nothing, nothing changes in this case, but in wider terms, you seem to believe that the actions of the person who doesnt want change need no examination - well I think someone who is violent towards their partner DOES need their actions examined despite it being the status quo, but your entitled to think differently.
Your idea that the status quo has nothing to answer for is just intellectually lazy franky.
I bet you shop around for car insurance, utility providers etc, even though you would have us believe theres no need to see if the deal you get is the best possible.
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> I thought you would get that much, perhaps
>> it stretched you abit.
Dont try and be clever with your insults, your not very good at it.
>> In this case, applying your logic that the one who wants the status quo to
>> change is the only one who must justify their position, the violent partner need not
>> because thats how things already are.
The position is already clear. There is an agreed policy or position - no one is suggesting that relationship violence is good or acceptable and the abuser is not campaigning to get that policy reviewed on a annual basis so that one day they might be sanctioned to carry on the abuse.
>> Your idea that the status quo has nothing to answer for is just intellectually lazy
>> franky.
Dont lecture me on intellect. You dont have the qualifications.
>> I bet you shop around for car insurance, utility providers etc, even though you would
>> have us believe theres no need to see if the deal you get is the
>> best possible.
yes I do, it happens at a regular time, just like elections you know.
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>>The position is already clear. There is an agreed policy or position - no one is suggesting that relationship violence is good or acceptable and the abuser is not campaigning to get that policy reviewed on a annual basis so that one day they might be sanctioned to carry on the abuse. <<
Im talking about the policy within the relationship between the two people, not the legal one, which you well know, but dodge it all you like ;-p
>>Dont lecture me on intellect. You dont have the qualifications. <<
What are mine then, since you proclaim to know?
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the same as mine - Zilch.
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If thats what you want to believe ;-p
The perception that ive said too much about myself on here is, umm, a little off, if you think you know much about me, have fun with that notion, ya really dont but its fun that people do :-)
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>> If thats what you want to believe ;-p
>>
>> The perception that ive said too much about myself on here is, umm, a little
>> off, if you think you know much about me, have fun with that notion, ya
>> really dont but its fun that people do :-)
>>
straight out of the horse's mouth:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=7566&m=167952
"if like me your[sic] not qualified in anything, "
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If you think horses are talking to you....
:-p
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>> >>The position is already clear. There is an agreed policy or position - no one
>> is suggesting that relationship violence is good or acceptable and the abuser is not campaigning
>> to get that policy reviewed on a annual basis so that one day they might
>> be sanctioned to carry on the abuse. <<
>>
>> Im talking about the policy within the relationship between the two people, not the legal
>> one, which you well know, but dodge it all you like ;-p
Its not the legal one, its the moral one., Your example is not valid to explain a position where BOTH are morally acceptable, as both positions on Europe are.
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Hehe ive been winding you up enough tonight, ill stop niggling ya, promise :-)
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>> Approx half our trade is with Europe . If we leave the EC, it will
>> of course continue.
>>
>> But.. does anyone really think - beacuse we are no part of the EC -
>> we will not have to ensure much of our business can not follow EC regulations?
>> of course they will not need to follow them all, but some they will have
>> to..
>>
The best bet may be to become part of the EEA, that way business (as in commerce) can continue pretty much as normal, but without the expensive empire building agenda.
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good idea, we can start another fisheries war.
Did you know they have to enact all the EU trade legislation, yet have no voting rights about it?
Except fish and cows.
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>> Did you know they have to enact all the EU trade legislation, yet have no
>> voting rights about it?
Well, that's yer Common Market, isn't it? Might have been OK, had it stopped there.
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At the end of the day most people's view on whether they UK should remain in the EU are based on emotional reasons and prejudices rather than totally rational arguments. I suspect the economic arguments are in favour but I'm not clever enough to make the case.
Personally I have always though that the UK is geographically, historically, economically and culturally part of Europe and that is where our future lies, as part of a strong Europe.
Obviously the EU has many faults but withdrawal from the Union would leave us with no say in its running and like it or nor the EU will have a major effect on the UK whether or nor we are a member.
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1. "Those who want change have to do something. "
Agreed. Now tell that to the EU commission who never stop initiating legislation aimed at "ever closer union"
2. "Did you know they have to enact all the EU trade legislation, yet have no voting rights about it?"
Indeed they do.
Of course we will need to follow EU regulations whether we are in-or-out, in the same way that we have to follow US and Chinese regulations to trade with those countries. But don't give me any of that bull about "we can influence the rules by being a member", because we have tiddly-squat say in the EU - mostly because we can't get the hang of playing the game.
Power in the EU starts and ends with the Franco-German axis, augmented by close allies with a vested interest, starting with Spain and Italy. They have long held a positive vision of where Europe should be heading, but we in the UK have never shared it, apart from a small minority. Unless and until we learn how to make the system work for us, we are stuffed.
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And since posting, as if on cue:
"This crisis has underlined that the EU, in large part, remains a Franco-German union. The other members of the eurozone appear as bystanders whilst the French and German leaders determine the fate of their currency" Gavin Hewitt
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15401280
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The problem is we are dealing with two, very distinct arguments here.
1/ would we be better in our out of the Union
Too many unknowns to call that one.
2/ Are the electorates wishes being considered about EU membership.
Probably not, but then they are being too wimpy to do anything about it.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 21 Oct 11 at 19:09
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What should the electorate do then Zero?
They have got the debate in the Commons and forced the issue, thats how democracy works, not ideal but we keep starting wars in its name so stand by your beds and wait for the process to complete.
I dont even know whether I want in or out, but I want to hear the case for both and for a halfway house idea. I want real figures, I want detail on every facet of EU membership so that I feel informed about it, MY country is paying for this, therefore MY government is accountable for that and it is up to them to make the case, not the EU itself.
My local MP is one of those behind the motion, infact he is one of the biggest troublemakers in the Tory party, so as far as is possible, I have no doubt that he represents my views on this and makes noise about it.
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>> What should the electorate do then Zero?
the ONLY thing that politicians, want, live for is getting elected and the power and self importance that brings. Its a career.
the only thing to grab their attention is the thought of not getting elected. So they need to be convinced that if they do not have a strong EU withdrawal policy, they wont get what they want.
Tough when none of the established parties have such a policy. So you have to find one that does. If enough of you do, the existing parties will then chase those votes.
>> They have got the debate in the Commons and forced the issue, thats how democracy
>> works, not ideal but we keep starting wars in its name so stand by your
>> beds and wait for the process to complete.
War starting is the least most democratic thing we do.
>> I dont even know whether I want in or out, but I want to hear
>> the case for both and for a halfway house idea. I want real figures, I
>> want detail on every facet of EU membership so that I feel informed about it,
>> MY country is paying for this, therefore MY government is accountable for that and it
>> is up to them to make the case, not the EU itself.
I am not sure, in fact convinced, that these fact and figures are quantifiable or available, Plenty of innuendo, assumptions and bold statements yes, but facts and figures for either way? No. Certainly not for the "out camp" for no-one really knows.
>> My local MP is one of those behind the motion, infact he is one of
>> the biggest troublemakers in the Tory party, so as far as is possible, I have
>> no doubt that he represents my views on this and makes noise about it.
He can afford to, because he knows that nothing will change.
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>> >> What should the electorate do then Zero?
>>
>> the ONLY thing that politicians, want, live for is getting elected and the power and
>> self importance that brings. Its a career.
To be fair, there are one or two that dont.
Tony Benn for one. While in power as technology minister, he tried to push the country into the 21st century. Went about it the wrong way but you can not fault his reasons for trying.
Don't like his politics, or his brand of socialism, but one has to admire his principals - Faultless.
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I think you fail to grasp that not everyone has given up on the meaning of getting up in the morning with some sort of purpose.
>>I am not sure, in fact convinced, that these fact and figures are quantifiable or available, Plenty of innuendo, assumptions and bold statements yes, but facts and figures for either way? No. Certainly not for the "out camp" for no-one really knows<<
If you pay money for something, if you cant quantify what you get back for your money in some kind of real way, then thats just foolishness.
>>He can afford to, because he knows that nothing will change.<<
And its that attitude which means nothing does. People like you are a large part of the problem, there are places for people who think like you, they are called dictatorships ( or the EU Comission, take your pick ).
Me, Im passionate, in my heart, not my wallet, about what I believe in and nobody will talk me out of that. I will always oppose absurdity and im afraid the EU has dealt out too much of it for me to ignore and what takes the peeehiss is that THEY dont see it, but since its their house, their rules, you leave unless they buck up their ideas, which they wont.
I look out into the wider world and my generation, right or wrong are finding their voice, protesting, being heard - it isnt Betty and Sue standing out in the rain protesting about their library card anymore, I like that, it gives me hope.
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I grew up in the sixties.We had the flower power vietnam war and change.Where I grew up work was plentifull unskilled skilled it didn't matter.
I was born 4 years after the war.The misery the war caused shouldn't be repeted.Still the world has been at war ever since.When you are young be a rebel and ask questions about the system.The EU came about with a steel agreement Benelux.And the idea no more wars from Europe.
Now I'm older I don't know what to believe anymore,I guess I'm lucky not to have gone through a war like my parents had to.Five years down the pan.
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As often the case Z is quite right, it would help if he was little more polite about it but he's still right.
The electorate are their own worse enemy in Britain and long has this been the case.
There really is not a fag paper between the main three parties, we effectively have a one party state, a one party dictatorship, with three branches instead of the four normally found at the type of schools the upper echelons of the three depts all went to.
Roll up folks vote for your very own dictator, the cameroon this time, with his glove puppet to take the flak.
The fact Cameron is about to prove himself a liar, just like Blair, by breaking a solemn promise, the one where he promised a referendum on Europe, will be forgotten in the run up to the next election.
The Libs are a bunch of jokers, they have lied more than Blair, which takes some beating and i wonder which team will carry the colours next time, who will benefit from the Libs disillusioned supporters votes, not as it matters in the least.
The three stooges, and a brainwashed electorate bamboozled by British Pravda and daytime numpty telly and booze, what a mess, the good Lord help us.
There's been the usual bluster about the economy, and only the tories can fix it, well i'm yet to see them doing anything about stopping spending, especially foreign aid/bribes/wars/regime changes, but what happened to spending cuts?, as far as i can tell all we are doing is printing more money and borrowing more than ever so our kids will be up to their eyeballs in hock for ever.
Righto Z, action.
Yes i've written to my MP, this very morning actually, he's a tory and apparently a right winger by repute, well he makes the right noises anyway, but whether he has the guts to stand up and be counted when the vote comes we'll see, i'll let you know if i get a reply.
I don't vote for any of the three main parties and haven't done so for many years because they do not represent me and they do not put our country first, and too many of them are dishonourable and liars with their hands in the till and unworthy of my support and endorsement, i do vote as otherwise i have no right to complain at their incompetence and corruption and failure to defend our country.
I vote for anyone who stands as guaranteeing our removal from the EU, which means i will vote for UKIP or the BNP or whoever happens to be fielding a candidate, regardless of their other policies.
To many people these are wasted votes.
By the way i mentioned BNP without the prefix odious or vile, sorry for any offence caused.
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>>he's a tory and apparently a right winger by repute<<
He is a thorn in Camerons side, cant be all bad, I rate MPs by how much Cameron doesnt like them now, seems to be a good measure.
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Very intellectual. well thought out.
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Well Im not a fan of lemmings, but you tottle off to the cliff...
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>
>> I vote for anyone who stands as guaranteeing our removal from the EU, which means
>> i will vote for UKIP or the BNP or whoever happens to be fielding a
>> candidate, regardless of their other policies.
>>
>> To many people these are wasted votes.
>>
>> By the way i mentioned BNP without the prefix odious or vile, sorry for any
>> offence caused.
Well at least you would have done something, so can complain with a bit of backbone behinfd you.
Is voting for these one trick pony parties, BNP/UKIP a bad thing? We all know they are one trick and don't have a hope in hell of governing if elected, and really don't have a hope in hell of getting elected to govern anyway. BUT voting for them sends a clear message that cant be fudged. No one can say you voted for something else, or didn't know why, or some other bluster. If sufficient people voted, if a few MPs lost seats, to these single issues, one of the main parties would soon pick up the cry.
The BNP is odious BTW, being run by thugs makes it nothing else. Which is a pity really because they do have some other interesting policies, and a stronger immigration policy gets a bad press because of them
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>> My local MP is one of those behind the motion, infact he is one of
>> the biggest troublemakers in the Tory party, so as far as is possible, I have
>> no doubt that he represents my views on this and makes noise about it.
According to Wiki Mr Hollobone is the most rebellious Tory. I'm afraid I have nothing but contempt for a man who rides the anti burqa bike.
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>> According to Wiki Mr Hollobone is the most rebellious Tory. I'm afraid I have nothing
>> but contempt for a man who rides the anti burqa bike.
He can't be all bad then!
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I rate MPs as I do other people.
Would I invite them into my home?
On that basis most anti EU Tories are a complete failure... See Michael Portillo as an example.. When he was an MP- he was obnoxios and an apparent coward.
On the other hand I would invite Tony Benn - whom I disgree strongly with on most things..
Like local politicians tweeting comparing people to animals.. Rather disatsteful..
Anyway the debate is futile ..
The Germans don't need a debate on whether they should finance Greece. Their own Constitutional Court restricts any new money without a referendum/electiion on the issue.
We on the other hand have a debate which is meaningless and adrresses and solves nothing..
Which tells you all you want to know about Parliament : it is out of touch and focusssed on the wrong issues...
Last edited by: madf on Sat 22 Oct 11 at 14:20
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Which tells you all you want to know about Parliament : it is out of
>> touch and focussed on the wrong issues...
.........and full of self-serving unprincipled careerists whose only concern, by and large, is "for how much money can I screw the taxpayer".
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>> Which tells you all you want to know about Parliament : it is out of touch and focusssed on the wrong issues...
+1
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So how would you like to see it changed and how would you propose this be done ?
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>> So how would you like to see it changed and how would you propose this
>> be done ?
>>
Here are a few ideas that immediately spring to mind. (For the purposes of fair play, I must declare my own political stance here. I am moderately left of centre, and strongly anti-New Labour)
1. No MP should represent a constituency unless he/she has lived in it for at least 5 years.
This would put an end to party apparatchiks "parachuting in" their blue-eyed boys and girls.
2. MP's should live in a comfortable hostel in Central London which will supply decent meals and accommodation at a fraction of the cost of the current allowance system.
3. MP's should enjoy the secret ballot as much as their constituents.
This will hit the power of the whips and give individual MPs more power over the executive (who is over-mighty at the moment).
4. The upper chamber should be reformed to one elected by STV to ensure fairer representation.
5. We should copy the Swiss system of organising referenda. This saves us re-inventing the wheel by copying a system that avoids fraud and flippant items. Putting the big decisions in the hands of the people will clip the wings of the politicians, and make them argue their case to the electorate properly, instead of treating us as idiots.
6. Every political party should elect it's leader by the system of "one member, one vote". Labour's absurd system should be scrapped (and, Yes, I do know the history behind it as a former member).
7. It must be compulsory for all candidates for political office to declare their interests, and also list all the jobs that they have done - this is so that the electorate gets to see who has held real jobs such as running a business, worked on a shop floor, been a teacher etc, as opposed to the MP's researchers, political advisors and other career politicians that infest Parliament at the moment.
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Pretty good list Londoner. If you're electing the upper chamber though, I'd make it for life. The Lords shouldn't have to worry about being re-elected. I actually prefer the idea of hereditary peers to an elected senate or appointed stooges.
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yup thats a good start my fellow cockney sparra,.
I too think we need a strong second chamber, as a backstop if nothing else. Note sure "elected peers for life" is quite the right way tho;
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>> >> So how would you like to see it changed and how would you propose
>> this
>> >> be done ?
>> >>
>> Here are a few ideas that immediately spring to mind. (For the purposes of fair
>> play, I must declare my own political stance here. I am moderately left of centre,
>> and strongly anti-New Labour)
>>
>> 1. No MP should represent a constituency unless he/she has lived in it for at
>> least 5 years.
1a. Before becoming an MP, one must serve on the local council, in a position of authority, for a minimum of 5 years.
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I agree, a superb starting point for change, now how to get that enacted when it's in the interests of the three joined at the hip parties and their financiers to keep the status quo.
Down Londoners road lies independent thinking, excellent.
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One question -
if you think your MP has a cushy job/life, or you are not happy with the current lot, and/or you could do a better job, why don't you stand in the election yourself?
you will soon discover that
a. the pay and benefits are not what you think you deserve
b. the electorate is never satisfied
c. you do not get enough votes and lose your deposit, let alone get elected
with the list of preconditions set by Londoner, nobody will want to do the job at all.
As Zero said earlier, all you lot want to do is moan, moan, moan. If you don't like it, get out there and start a campaign to get yourself elected.
Last edited by: Suppose on Sat 22 Oct 11 at 23:12
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And if you get yourself elected nothing will change either.You be told to conform and tow the line.So you become a independent and taking the mickey out by the controlled news media.
Start in your own area try to inprove the way we live.Maybe helping a eldery neighbour,pick up litter talk to each other again start somewhere.>:)
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>> And if you get yourself elected nothing will change either.You be told to conform and
>> tow the line.So you become a independent and taking the mickey out by the controlled
>> news media.
Dutchie you know more about British politics and the real situation than most Englishmen i know.
Nothing will change until enough people realise that the three department one party state is embedded.
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Of course it might be the case that the majority of people in the country are broadly happy with the status quo as far as the government is concerned and whilst happy to moan about the EU and the like , much the way that they moan about the weather don't really want radical change.
And if they are in the majority we do have a working democracy.
Interestin though eh?
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The often-repeated rhetoric on here that all politicians are self-seeking liars is inaccurate.
I'm not interested in political news, but have been obliged to attend countless local council meetings, and interview many local councillors, and a handful of MPs, including two prime ministers.
Further, I have covered many local elections, and several general and Euro elections.
This experience tells me the majority of politicians are reasonably well-motivated to make changes to their communities which they see as positive.
Yes, there is a minority who are dishonest and only in it for what they can get for themselves, which is the same as in all other walks of life.
In that respect, politicians mirror society generally.
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Given voter turn out, the only thing the country is quite sure on is that they dont have much faith in the system, thats not approval, thats apathy.
I chat with alot of people across a wide spectrum of class and income - people are openly eurosceptic now, especially lower paid workers like admin assistants.
On a personal note, immigration has decimated my area of work as a large percentage of people doing car cleaning are from across the water, working for peanuts which buy an awful lot back home - absolutely cant blame them for it though I might add.
When I started on my own a decade ago, work was easy to find and those car wash places were maybe one per town, now they are on every street corner. They work for less, so I have to work for less, which hammers down wages and Ive spoken to a few in my trade who have exactly the same problem and ordinary people dont understand the subtle difference between a pro job and a backstreet one.
I had one customer with a Vivaro van - for years he had paid £15 for me to go over to his workplace, wash it, clean the windows up and give it a quick vac out, about an hours work, around £11 profit for me - ok. Then he comes at me with 'Ill pay you £20 to do the van and two other cars or I go to the Poles as they will do it for £5'.
I cannot compete with that because its not financially possible unless I become a registered charity.
Thats what the EU has done for me and thats why if nothing else at all is considered, its hurting me, thats personal and real for me.
Regardling my 'rivals', the issue of quality of work has been coming up lately, clearly it is often the case that they dont have any formal training or experience before sponge is placed in hand.
I was called in to sort out the paint on an old Corsa which had been soaked in TFR, leaving the paint flat and with huge run marks all over it - looked like an acid attack - stupid basic mistake, she vowed to never go back to one of them.
Another customer had to have her bonnet resprayed due to damage made with the lance and the fact that they had on a weekly basis been putting the alloys through an acid bath - in two months the wheels had gone from tidy to riddled with corrosion ( a weekly wheel wash simply doesnt need any acid ). She said to me the other day that nobody but me was touching her car in future. It was a nice thing for her to say ill admit, props to me and all that, but Im not suprised it happened, although secretly I did think it would be nice if they keep on doing this sort of thing, works for me I can tell you.
But anyway, all I can say is, it matters to me, my life and I find as time goes on im becoming more political and more interested in what goes on, alongw ith a large number of people I meet, its a hot topic.
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Good points in your case FoR if people aren not prepared to pay that bit extra its' there problem.
I clean my own car but if I couldn;t I rather see somebody like you,to have my car cleaned.I have seen people with these power washes makes me shudder no good for a normal clean.Unless its' a landrover covered in crud.Regular acid baths for wheels no need either.We are all part of politics open your eyes and question.Nothing wrong with that I always did made enemys and friends.>:)
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We have been lied to and lied to. Nobody can dispute that.
Democracy died in this country some time ago.
The present government has done NOTHING that it said in its manifesto.
It has just been lies, lies and more lies.
If anybody can actually tell me something that this government has done that it promised to do, i am interested to hear.
Apart from that, how blimming DARE cameron take the stage and say how proud he is of this country's role in toppling gaddafi!. We had no right to go there, and i fear the repercussions.
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>> If anybody can actually tell me something that this government has done that it promised
>> to do, i am interested to hear.
>>
Your wish is my command.
They have done several important things actually. For full reference, here is the text of the coalition agreement. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8677933.stm
Here are a few highlights (and please remember that I don't support either coalition party)
- The parties agree that reductions can be made to the Child Trust Fund and tax credits for higher earners.
-The parties agree that funding for the NHS should increase in real terms in each year of the Parliament, while recognising the impact this decision would have on other departments. The target of spending 0.7% of GNI on overseas aid will also remain in place.
-The Government will be committed to the maintenance of Britain's nuclear deterrent. . .
-The parties commit to establishing an independent commission to review the long term affordability of public sector pensions
-We will restore the earnings link for the basic state pension from April 2011
- The parties will bring forward a Referendum Bill on electoral reform, which includes provision for the introduction of the Alternative Vote
-The scrapping of ID card scheme, the National Identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the Contact Point Database.
-The cancellation of the third runway at Heathrow.
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About ten mins till the result of the vote for those interested.
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Bullingdon bully-boy tactics win - for now.
Camaroon has ignored the wishes of too many electors and even some of his own MPs, for this to be anything but a Pyrrhic victory.
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A message has been sent.
There is now a renewed political will to rid ourselves of the worst Euro-meddling.
Democracy in action.
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ho ho ho ho
did you tell anyone in power you wanted out?
No?
probably why you are still in
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...did you tell anyone in power you wanted out?...
Most unlike me, I did some limited political agitation, which has given a predictably limited result.
I wouldn't leave the EU tomorrow, I'd leave today.
Neither will happen, but the EU pendulum has been pushed back a little bit, so I'm happy with that.
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>> I wouldn't leave the EU tomorrow, I'd leave today.
Great planning.
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I certainly contacted my local MP, but he a Labour drone, so no positives from him.
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>> Camaroon has ignored the wishes of too many electors
Did you tell him?
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I wrote to my MP who was one of the 'naughty 79' and said I admire his stand, but unfortunately its become clear that his party has no interest in his agenda nor the people that vote for him. As such, next GE, the only way a vote for him will be worth it is if its on a UKIP ticket, as I will never vote Tory again. Think it over, got a few years.
Last edited by: FoR on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 09:16
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We need a 'peasants revolt' again.
I say this because those self serving idiot's that are running this country are out of touch with 99% of the population.
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And how did 99% of the population make their wishes known?
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they haven't had the chance....... yet.
Yes there are a few people protesting at St Paul's cathedral but that's nothing and won't go anywhere.
Why is it, we can vote these idiot's in but can't vote them out ?
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Whatever happens, Cameron is doomed, likely re-christened Our Not-so-Great Leader.
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You mean revolution chase them out of their ivory castles.
The French did this once viva liberty.>:)
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I thought we'd cracked the voters will thing upthread.
Quite clear that if you ask in/out right now people say 'out'. I suspect however that a longer and more nuanced conversation would produce closer result. The institution needs reform but brings advantages as well as costs.
All the political parties that hold significant number of seats in the constiuent parts of the UK are in favour of staying in and say so in their manifesto. Party leaders are presumably well informed on all the issues and can see that getting out is at best a massive gamble. Both Labour (eighties) and the Tories (nineties) have flirted with overtly anti EC policies and for both those times are associated with successive sound defeats.
The public vote on issues that matter in their immediate lives; the economy, health, planning etc. While getting out of the EC may get a gut yes it's not a big issue for most punters.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 09:39
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I think the next election will tell us whether or not the EU is going to become a big issue.
UKIP have 3-4 years to make political capital out of this - if they cant make strides now, they never will, but the seeds are sown and the worse it gets the the Euro, the better for them. They certainly will put forward the case.
The Mail and the tabloids will keep firing shots at the EU aswell, the later which reaches working class voters like my FIL who would likely be swayed on just a few key points - I remember he said the first time he realised the EU was a problem is when he wanted to back a lorry into a space, but health and safety rules meant he needed someone to see him back into the space - there were plenty of blokes capable of doing so, but they all refused as they could face disciplinary action as they werent 'trained'.
It meant waiting an hour to park. He was thoroughly irritated by that. He traced it back to the EU and many people like him will do the same on issues close to them.
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>> It meant waiting an hour to park. He was thoroughly irritated by that. He traced
>> it back to the EU and many people like him will do the same on
>> issues close to them.
And the ironic thing is, it had nothing to do with the EU
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Doesnt matter, he isnt political, he wouldnt know either way - maybe you have never heard working class men putting the world to rights - they arent always accurate in who they blame, but generally immovable on it anyway.
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>> Doesnt matter, he isnt political, he wouldnt know either way - maybe you have never
>> heard working class men putting the world to rights -
Of course I have, I come from east end dockers stock.
They probably blame the EU for the loss of the docks. And there is the rub, not much in the way of "blame for stuff" will change out of the EU, because the EU isn't to blame for it in the first place.
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Well then, you should know that the first person who finds the tone of the working man on the EU will prob win the argument, regardless of any sort of facts.
Truth is, people like you and me, we can argue over facts, points of view on technicalities on EU membership all day, but we are a minority.
My wife, much the same as her father, isnt politically savvy, but I just gave her all the leaflets that came through the door for the local elections and the one that spoke to her loudest got her vote, simple as - she didnt do any fact checking and Im afraid she is I think, the majority.
If someone out there can capture the public mood in an accessible way, they could make plenty of hay while the sun is out on this, whether they do however, remains to be seen.
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>> Well then, you should know that the first person who finds the tone of the
>> working man on the EU will prob win the argument, regardless of any sort of
>> facts.
>>
>> Truth is, people like you and me, we can argue over facts, points of view
>> on technicalities on EU membership all day, but we are a minority.
Seems to me then that Cameron has done the right thing.
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I see him as in a bit of a muddle, infact none of the 'big 3' party leaders are looking very solid anymore.
I dont think Cameron had an easy choice either way tbh, but I think had he allowed a free vote, he would have bought himself some time on the issue - now he has started burning bridges he may wish he hadnt later on and there was almost no chance the vote would be won, it was never about that, it was about backbenchers reminding their boss they were still there - apparently its perceived he has largely forgotten them.
Well now he has headlines for all the wrong reasons, he has given Ed an open goal which im sure he will delight in exploiting and he looks like someone who cant manage his party effectively.
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>> Well now he has headlines for all the wrong reasons, he has given Ed an
>> open goal which im sure he will delight in exploiting and he looks like someone
>> who cant manage his party effectively.
Good point Stu. The coalition introduced these petition led debates and the early ones have allowed the Commons to present itself at its best, last week on Hilsborough, and at its worst last night on the EU.
Best to allow a free vote on all of them.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 10:39
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For me, I find the whole notion of a 3 line whip abhorrent tbh.
Asking my local MP, no telling him, to vote the way Cameron wants him to, against his own convictions, under threat of sanctions - thats not democracy and I cannot accept it, its just plain wrong, all votes should be free in teh Commons and it should be up to party management to carry their party along with them.
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I rather suspect that a referendum on membership of the EU would be met by massive disinterest by most of the population. It is only a small element that cares passionately about it one way or the other. I doubt whether the turn out would exceed 30%-40%
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Yes, I did tell Camaroon & I signed the E-petition & the People's Pledge.!
Last edited by: Roger on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 10:18
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Minimum wage came from the E.U.One positive Tories voted against it bad for bussiness according to them.
Some of the health and safety rules remember labour kids where not allowd to play conkers.
UKIP has one platform the E.U.Similair to Geert Wilders immigration.UKIP has good points regarding spending in the E.U.There is a small river canal widened at a cost of 17 miljion Euro's in Assen Netherlands.For rich folk to sail on.The money would be better spend towards a new hospital we need in this town.Its up to our politicans to fight our cause in Europe.
Sorry Roger the Brits are Europeans and we should be in Europe not on the fringes.
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>>Brits are Europeans and we should be in Europe not on the fringes<<
We already are on the fringes, the only country that matters is Germany and when the 17 country bloc start voting together ( or rather as Germany instructs ), we will be about as effective in the European parliament as Caroline Lucas is in the Commons.
UKIP isnt a single-issue party - it was certainly, but it isnt now, maybe you should read their manifesto and comment again.
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Can't open the link.Nonsens about us having a say in Europe why feeling inferior to the Germans? Or any other Europenan nation.Its our politicians who are at fault here.They are s/scared of the people when it comes to a vote on Europe.
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Works for me, nevermind :-)
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Not really nonsense, its maths - if a 17 country economic block votes as one, which is expected if they become fiscally united, then the other 10 countries, of which we are one, will always be out voted, therefore the desires of that 17 country bloc will be the only ones that are relevant.
Germany holds the purse strings and money is power. Nothing wrong with that, I dont mistrust Germany, im 1/4 german and I wish many countries were a bit more germanic frankly.
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Germany France Britain are the major economys in Europe.Of course Britain has a say what happens in Europe.I still think we are better fighting our case in Europe than out.That's why I'm saying nonsens don't dismiss yourself.
Be more Germanic good point then we want he same benefits pensions workers right etc.
Our politicans are stopping this.Pesions should be linked to wages this was stopped years ago.Our benefit system must be one of the most complicated in Europe our politicians allowe this.Nothing to do with the EU.Remember when people from the UK had to go abroad for hip operations because of the waiting times.
Ukip regarding immigration the majority of Immigrants in the UK are from ex colonys of the UK.I'm Dutch part Greek and Swiss that puts me in the doghouse..>:)
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Last night's vote ordered by the few in power should prove beyond all doubt for even the most brainwashed voter that democracy here has now ended, thanks are due to Mr Cameron and his backers for proving beyond all doubt that we now have a system not unlike George Orwell's Farm, where only those who are more equal than others have a say.
Now is the perfect opportunity for those who want an independent Britain to get together under one banner, probably UKIP as it isn't tainted by the race issue.
It would mean the likes of Griffin and Farage and the leaders of EDL and the new small breakaway parties that have formed since BNP had it's civil war recently all getting together, not to form a coalition, but to openly agree together in public that the time has come.
Together they can summon a massive tide of opinion under this one issue.
Whether you agree or not with these various leaders doesn't matter, the vast majority of the supporters of all these parties are not raving nazi thugs as the media would have you believe, they are normal decent people who have found themselves with no one to represent them in the one party with three heads State, they have had to support these parties and vote for them as and when they can to register their disgust at their lack of representation.
Griffin and the others should, if they really believe in this country and patriots as they claim, be big enough to publicly and together urge their members to unite under the UKIP banner, even if it means the end of their parties...a true patriot would do this, we shall see.
Time is running out, if they do not unite then Britain as an independent nation will cease to exist.
It won't happen of course pigs will fly first, and all this will have been forgotten as the great brainwashed return to Jeremy Kyle and the pub.
In a couple of years we'll start the propaganda merry go round again as we gear up to get The Party re-elected again, most people will look at their own little patch of world and whoever promises (more lies) the most to them will get the vote, it will always be the same here.
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Ill tell you what has changed GB - euroscepticism has become a fairly mainstream view of late, which is a big shift actually, its getting more airtime - im currently listening to Radio 4 on the issue and its a far more balanced attitude than it used to be.
That really is a change.
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>> That really is a change.
>>
It's a change Stu but it won't mean a fig to those who control those in power.
The leaders of each dept of the State ordered their respective MP's to vote against a referendum, what does that tell you?
They do not listen to nor are intersted in what the majority of people think or want because they don't need to, most people cannot think outside Lib or Lab or Con because they are told repeatedly by the media that these are their only choices.
The three choices all want the same thing, power, little wonder there is such apathy at the polls.
My prediction?, it will all be forgotten within the year.
The forthcoming depression and huge interest rate rises should be arriving shortly, that will give them something to chew over instead.
Wonder if the present lot can borrow enough so it doesn't happen on their watch.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 12:40
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As very few of you who want out voted for UKIP.I find the "will of the people " stuff rather stupid..
But hey ho, If you don't vote UKIP, you will not leave the EU.
And be prepared to pay for the job losses 5 years later.
100k votes does NOT represent "the will of the people". The last Election did.
Remind me how many MPs UKIP have in the House of Commons?
It's reminiscent of an evangelical meeting with all the fanaticism but without the rationale to back it up. :-)
Last edited by: madf on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 13:00
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Remind me how many UKIP ( and BNP ) MEPs there are?
Theres 13 out of 72 MEPs, voted in 2009 before current events. Have another vote now and see how fanatical people vote.
Last edited by: FoR on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 13:10
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>> Theres 13 out of 72 MEPs, voted in 2009 before current events. Have another vote
>> now and see how fanatical people vote.
But voted at a time when Brown's gov was unpopular and UKIP was, for EU elections, an acceptable protest vote. PR means small parties actually get elected.
Also possible that the electorate are less ovine than we think and vote diferently according to where the winners will sit. No doubt that the Scots are doing this; SNP for Holyrood but Labour for Westminster.
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Leaving PR for one minute, lets look at actual votes...
Conservative - 4.2 million
UKIP - 2.5 million
Labour - 2.4 million
Lib Dems - 2.1 million
Given the eurosceptic grouping the Conservative MEPs are in, one can assume they are perhaps more eurosceptic than Westminster MPs, so adding them for arguements sake to the UKIP vote, euroscepticism is hardly a minority view of voters - infact by rough estimate, its about on the level with polls on the EU.
Only rough estimation of course.
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Listening to Radio 5 Live at lunch time there was a correspondent from Germany who was forecasting the demise of the EU. Apparently, the majority of Germans are fed up with bailing out Greece, and other insolvent nations, and want out. This is similar to what Forbes Magazine was saying two years ago about the Euro, but on this occasion it seems that the German public want to go further.
Perhaps Cameron need not do anything in this case, the Germans will do it for him. I don't know when Merkel is up for re-election, but it's likely a Eurosceptic government could be put in power.
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>> Leaving PR for one minute, lets look at actual votes...
>>
>> Conservative - 4.2 million
>> UKIP - 2.5 million
>> Labour - 2.4 million
>> Lib Dems - 2.1 million
>>
>
I wonder where you got those numbers from?
UKIP perhaps?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/
Full UK ScoreboardParty Seats Gain Loss Net Votes % +/-%
Conservative 307 100 3 +97 10,726,614 36.1 +3.8
Labour 258 3 94 -91 8,609,527 29.0 -6.2
Liberal Democrat 57 8 13 -5 6,836,824 23.0 +1.0
Democratic Unionist Party 8 0 1 -1 168,216 0.6 -0.3
Scottish National Party 6 0 0 0 491,386 1.7 +0.1
Sinn Fein 5 0 0 0 171,942 0.6 -0.1
Plaid Cymru 3 1 0 +1 165,394 0.6 -0.1
Social Democratic & Labour Party 3 0 0 0 110,970 0.4 -0.1
Green 1 1 0 +1 285,616 1.0 -0.1
Alliance Party 1 1 0 +1 42,762 0.1 +0.0
UK Independence Party 0 0 0 0 919,546 3.1 +0.9
British National Party 0 0 0 0 564,331 1.9 +1.2
......
Turnout 29,691,380 65.1 4.0
I really think your cconclusions would be rather different if you read the correct results...
which show UKIP as an irrelevance..
Last edited by: madf on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 14:55
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I quoted the results for the last euro election which you well know.
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>> Remind me how many UKIP ( and BNP ) MEPs there are?
>>
>> Theres 13 out of 72 MEPs, voted in 2009 before current events. Have another vote
>> now and see how fanatical people vote.
>>
Well of course you purposely distorted what I asked.. which was...
"Remind me how many MPs UKIP have in the House of Commons?"
hmm.. I get an asnswer about MEPs.. Remind me where in the House of Commons MEPs sit? :-)
And of course all this debate about democracy etc is carp. None of you voted for the current Government so all talk of broken promises is: talk..
Which is the weakness with most of the Conservative rebels. Most of them could not form a colation with anyone...
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True but you already knew the answer and were simply being sarcastic so I returned the favour.
When it comes to the subject of European elections, you get a different view of public opinion, which you sought to duck by going domestic.
Might be that the public already believe our parliament doesnt have the power to affect the EU.
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Sorry = see my reply to your above but 1 post.. Which shows your conclusions based on the 2010 elections are based on the wrong numbers !
Last edited by: madf on Tue 25 Oct 11 at 14:57
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madf, with all respect (I may be wrong, I haven't read *all* this thread) I think Stu is referring to the last European elections when indeed UKIP came in second behind the Tories.
www.europarl.org.uk/section/european-elections/results-2009-european-elections-uk
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Your right which he well knows. He is just trying to assert Im a moron or a liar.
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£11 profit out of £15 charged to a man in a Vivaro van.
Wow! OMG! That is gross!
No wonder you are so anti-Europe. The East-Europeans who took away your work were able to so because you were ripping off your working class customers.
I vote for an anti-capitalist demo/camp/sit-in organised outside your premises for such gross profiteering.
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>> £11 profit out of £15 charged to a man in a Vivaro van.
>> Wow! OMG! That is gross!
>>
>> No wonder you are so anti-Europe. The East-Europeans who took away your work were able
>> to so because you were ripping off your working class customers.
Probably the market rate at the time, not many brits ppd to do what Stu does. Many of those who did were doing home calls. The influx of Poles and other Eastern Europeans runnig the job as a business either in their own sites or in supermarket car parks changed the supply/deamnd on its head.
And if Stu thinks coming out of the EU means our capitalist masters will cut themselves off from cheap labour he may be sore dissapointed come the day!
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>>£11 profit out of £15 charged to a man in a Vivaro van.
Wow! OMG! That is gross!<<
God forbid a business that actually makes a profit, how terrible.
Ripping off a working class customer who drives a year old Jag, yeah sure, woe him, the poor unfortunate with a £40k car.
In the end though, you just want to be nasty and personal - you obviously have a taste for it now, but it isnt clever and im not going to stop contributing - your nothing to me, I care not for your vitriolic jibes, but I just cant seem to care. Bzzz.
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>> In the end though, you just want to be nasty and personal - you obviously have a taste for it now, but it isnt clever
Couldn't have put it better myself. Well done FoR.
Despite posting a warning to Suppose yesterday, he continues to ridicule and personally attack other forum members - which among other things is against house rules. Do it once more and I will disable your account.
Vx.
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>> £11 profit out of £15 charged to a man in a Vivaro van.
>> Wow! OMG! That is gross!
>>
>> No wonder you are so anti-Europe. The East-Europeans who took away your work were able
>> to so because you were ripping off your working class customers.
>>
>> I vote for an anti-capitalist demo/camp/sit-in organised outside your premises for such gross profiteering.
£11 is Stu's wages, for an hour's work presumably - probably plus travelling. Not exactly profiteering. Are you being wilfully obtuse, or is my irony detector on the blink again?
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>> £11 profit out of £15 charged to a man in a Vivaro van.
>> Wow! OMG! That is gross!
>>
>> No wonder you are so anti-Europe. The East-Europeans who took away your work were able
>> to so because you were ripping off your working class customers.
It's interesting, isn't it. We've had very low interest rates for the last 15 years because:
Wage inflation has been kept down by Eastern-Europeans working at or below the minimum wage (because to them it's peanuts).
Goods inflation has been kept down by Chinese imports manufactured by people working for a dollar a day (or whatever).
So who is charging the wrong amount? Stu, or the others?
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While the original post on the subject wasnt making a serious point, ill answer yours.
I certainly dont blame eastern europeans for coming here for work, I have a strong affinity with my east german heritage and if it were possible to go to another european country and earn what amounts to big bucks back home, its a no brainer really with freedom of movement.
My grandfather employed poles in the 70's because only they would do the dirtiest jobs at a brickworks, plus he spoke polish ( he was born in what is now poland but was germany when he was born ).
Unfortunately I cant live in someones garden shed while I work for £4 an hour, this is an expensive country to make a viable life in.
I was very general with my profit margins, the actual profit varies wildly as I charge a set price per job, so an easy job is good money, a difficult one isnt. On one business customer arrangement, I can struggle to make £3.50 an hour, on another I can make £15 an hour, but id rather make £3.50 an hour than sit on my backside, regardless of popular opinion.
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But work should not be slavery.If you employ people and you can't pay them a living wage don't run a bussiness.
If there is a shortfall the benefit system kicks in and the taxpayer has to fork out for the difference.
My son in law is Polish cost of living about the same than the U.K wages less.The Poles haven't being rich a long history Germany controlled parts of Poland.They still drive Dutch trams in Poznan which where given a long time ago.There economy is picking up now and good luck to them.
You shouldn't have to work for £3.50 a hr.I wouldn't.
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>> Minimum wage came from the E.U.One positive Tories voted against it bad for bussiness according to them.
>>
>> Some of the health and safety rules remember labour kids where not allowd to play conkers.
Minimum wage did not come from the EU. I live in Germany where there is no legal minimum wage.
There are also not reams of meaningless and bonkers health and safety rules plaguing people's lives here. In the UK, health and safety legislation has less to do with the EU and more to do with the worry of companies and authorities being sued by ambulance chasing lawyers on behalf of compensation chasing clients. This attitude is something the UK has adopted from the US.
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The problem with over-regulation and gold-plating on H&S is that it is a litigant's charter - acting reasonably might not be enough to avoid being found negligent if all the boxes aren't ticked.
Worse, the supervisory levels gold plate the gold plating to make sure they cover their own backsides - hence policemen who won't climb a ladder to investigate theft of lead from a roof. Similarly with Data Protection - the excuse for every kind of idiocy.
I agree the EU isn't directly to blame for everything.
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When I graduated as an engineer in the UK in the 80s and worked in British industry, I was amazed at the number of jobsworths that were employed. There were people working in quality management, safety management, environmental control and many more, all wandering round our factory putting ticks on their checklists.
The safety management representative made me wear steel toe capped safety shoes to go 30cm cross a boundary line that someone had painted on the floor to get to my office - in 1986. There was no logical reason for the line being there, but it was there, so the expectation was, disengage brain and follow the rules.
The first time I worked in Germany, in 1989, I didn't find these people. People worked and were expected to a large extent to look after their own safety.
I don't know where this jobsworth mentality came from, possibly the remnants of National Service, I don't know, but having experienced it at first hand 25 years ago, I'm firmly of the opinion that the health and safety madness in the UK is largely home grown.
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Hello zero, and thanks for inviting me here.
You laugh amongst yourselves about live eels and pies and liquor. yet it's my heritage!!
i dont get annoyed when u guys laugh, because im really quite proud of it.
when i get corsa back on the road again i will tell u what goes wrong.
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Better get the camshaft holders torqued down.
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Hello HF.
I had some nice smoked eels back home and raw herrings with unions.Very tasty.>:)
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Over here I believe beer and sandwiches are to be had when meeting the unions.
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Sorry>:) Deliberate mistake.
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Nice to hear from a Engineer Bagpuss.So many people are called engineers and so few are one.
Also Dupont brought rules in which we had to carry out at B.P.Walk up and down stairs a certain way it got crazy.
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The majority of E.U countrys have a minimum wage which is only right.I believe 20 out of 27.
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Increasing mimimum wage, while reducing employer's NI contributions to help business pay for it (since less pay-related benefit top-up by the government would be required) is surely a better carrot to get people away from staying on non-working benefits....
...than pretending that reducing/abolishing minimum wage will somehow kick-start the economy by creating loads more jobs (that noone will want to do for £4 an hour)?
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>> The majority of E.U countrys have a minimum wage which is only right.I believe 20 out of 27.
I actually think a minimum wage is a good idea. It's used very successfully in Scandinavian countries to prevent companies importing low cost labour and undermining the local salaries. They can import all the people they want - but have to pay them the going rate.
There is a "de facto" minimum salary in Germany, related to what people on unemployment benefits get paid, but it's not enshrined in law. Strange bearing in mind that even the mega capitalist US has a legal minimum wage.
>>Also Dupont brought rules in which we had to carry out at B.P.Walk up and down stairs a certain way it got crazy.
My favourite H&S story relates to a customer of mine with activities in Norway and the UK, both countries in my exprience fanatical proponents of health and safety.
I was being shown to a meeting room on the first floor of an office building. There were signs on every stair ordering me to use the hand rail when using the stair case which I, of course, ignored. My customer, with a worried look, told me to make use of the hand rail, otherwise he would have to report my willful staircase misuse as a near miss accident with all the associated paperwork.
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Don't mention near miss accidents.We had sheets of paper having to fill in near miss accident forms.The one who got the most forms filled in was champion of the week.>:)
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>> told me to make use of the hand rail, otherwise he would have to report
>> my willful staircase misuse as a near miss accident with all the associated paperwork.
>>
>>
You should slide down it.
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The Cameroonian viewpoint:
tinyurl.com/67vqob6 (Matthew D'Ancona in tonight's Stannad)
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>>The Cameroonian viewpoint:
Is what? (I have read that article, and I am none the wiser.)
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>> Is what? (I have read that article, and I am none the wiser.)
>
Makes clear the rationale for whipping the vote.
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>> >> Is what? (I have read that article, and I am none the wiser.)
>> >
>>
>> Makes clear the rationale for whipping the vote.
Makes clear Cameron's rationale for whipping the vote, which may or may not be rational!
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Let's him see who his enemies are without risking a vote he couldn't lose.
When and if the real close-calls happen he'll know who needs extra 'whipping'.
/Max Moseley
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I was chatting to someone from what I guess you could call the 'real' Tory party today and this rhetoric about 'united like never before' is Cameron's delusion over reality.
At a local level he seems to have lost them completely, in a quiet ' dont call us, we'll call you' way. The way it sounded was that he has shown his true colours and they arent wholly interested in his recent jink 'right', they arent buying it this time.
Unless he does something rather special, I think he will go the way of Brown come election time, it sounds that serious on a party level.
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This is the least democratic age i have ever lived in.
MPs are voting on whether to allow us a referendum on something they promised us in order to get voted in.
Then they whip each other to force themselves to vote the way their leader wishes.
And even if they vote against, we're told we won't get the referendum anyway.
What the hell's going on?
Flipping communist USSR had more rights and freedom.
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>> This is the least democratic age i have ever lived in.
>>
>> MPs are voting on whether to allow us a referendum on something they promised us
>> in order to get voted in.
Can you point me to the item in the manifesto where this promise was made?
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No, i'm sorry Zero. They never gave me a copy of their manifesto.
I'm willing to be corrected but I'm sure this was one of the many things that was promised. It would take me days to come up with any valid quotes to back what I have said, because my internet skills are akin to a snail running down the garden path.
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Allow me HF
Here is the relevant bit of the Conservative manifesto HF. As you will see it does not promise a referendum on membership of the EU so Zero is correct. It only promises a referendum in the specific event that the EU uses a so called ratchet clause to transfer an area of power to the EU
"the Lisbon treaty contains a number of so- called ‘ratchet clauses’, which allow the powers of the EU to expand in the future without a new treaty. We do not believe that any of these ‘ratchet clauses’ should be used to hand over more powers from britain to the eU. So a Conservative government will not agree to the UK’s participation in the establishment of a European Public Prosecutor’s Office or permit its jurisdiction over the UK. We will change the 1972 act so that an act of Parliament would be required before any ‘ratchet clause’ could be used. additionally, the use of a major ‘ratchet clause’ which amounted to the transfer of an area of power to the eU would be subject to a referendum."
If you want a good nights sleep here is the entire manifesto:
www.conservatives.com/Policy/Manifesto.aspx
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Thank you CGN. I don't want to get too political here, and also I don't wish to sound ignorant - but what exactly is a ratchet clause?
I don't think it will be just me that misinterpreted this piece of the manifesto.
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A ratchet clause is a provision under which the treaty obligations of the parties are automatically adjusted according to pre set conditions without a further amendment to the treaty being necessary.
The allusion is to something being ratcheted up i.e slowly tightened up.
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>> Flipping communist USSR had more rights and freedom.
My wife grew up in what at the time was the USSR. She would massively disagree with your opinion.
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>>My wife grew up in what at the time was the USSR. She would massively disagree with your opinion.
Sure, I was of course exaggerating to make my point.
My closest friend lives in Ukraine and went through the soviet years. I apologise for any offence taken
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>> My closest friend lives in Ukraine and went through the soviet years. I apologise for any offence taken
Thanks for the apology, no offence taken:-)
I sometimes do get a bit frustrated with the rhetoric used on certain forums, especially the Torygraph, by people who seriously seem to think that living in 21st Britain or Europe in terms of rights and freedoms is in any way comparable with living in the USSR.
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Indeed, it could be so much worse in the UK, its one of the better places to live in this world, regardless of its imperfection.
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>>I sometimes do get a bit frustrated with the rhetoric used on certain forums, especially the Torygraph, by people who seriously seem to think that living in 21st Britain or Europe in terms of rights and freedoms is in any way comparable with living in the USSR.
Understand. I'm not a Torygraph person. I do read my mum's daily mail sometimes tho, and do my dad's torygraph crossword when i can nick it off him.
I do, often, let my feelings run away without me. Sometimes I can't catch them up.
I think a lot of us ARE suffering because of what is happening in this country at the moment, and I tend to get angry because some of us really will have to choose 'eat or sleep' this winter.
It is a reality, maybe not for most, but certainly for me and mine.
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HF, they will go easy on ya because your new, but id avoid making big statements unless you want to back them up because you will be asked to, your new, its ok :-)
Theres a diverse range of opinions, so more often than not, somebody will agree with you on something, but dont be suprised if you get 'enthusiastic' responses to things like 'Flipping communist USSR had more rights and freedom.'
And start a thread of your own on a subject, stick ya boot right in, always welcomed, show no fear :-p
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Theres no party whip here :-p
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Has this thread been allowed to hit 190 to exclude those who have slow download speeds ? ;-)
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 27 Oct 11 at 20:17
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I'm pretty sure none of the main parties offered an open/shut referendum. Indeed the absence of such a promise is the main gripe of the East Northants Independence Party (GB & Stu) upthread.
What was offered was a referendum in the event of further changes to the EU's founding treaties. No such changes have yet been moved, though closer fiscal integration of the Euro countries could be the trigger.
Monday's vote was a charade. The coalition offered the possibility that petitions securing over 100,000 signatures might secure a debate in the Commons. Not legislation but a proper debate - the whole house involved in the sort of adult conversation that takes place in the grossly under publicised Westminster Hall sessions. And a week earlier we had an example of what the proces swas meant to secure when the House debated Hilsborough.
Unfortunately the process is susceptible to hi-jack by professional campaigners and by the commercial crusaders of the press.
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I guess im quite sad, I actually watched most of the debate in the Commons, but its actually worth watching sometimes to see how it all works.
I dont actually require an in/out referendum contrary to your assumption BUT I do not believe the excesses of the EU, especially in terms of financial efficiency and democracy could be built into it after the event as there are vested interests by many member states who do rather well out of the current arrangements.
Theres just too much money at stake for too many people to let morality or democracy to get in the way.
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People are scared in Greece.That is why we are seeing the riots.If people lose everything they lose it.I believe Gerald Celentine said this.
I was talking to our chemist today who is Spanish.He told me unemployment is high in Spain no jobs.Another time bomb to go off like in Italy.A MP retires in Italy at 50 with 5000 euro's pension a month.A pensioner at 65 is lucky to recieve 1000 euro's a month.
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I don't live in a full democracy, whilst I pay tax in two countries I can vote in neither. As Dutchie implies, people need feeding, clothing and to consider their (hopefully) worked-for gains to be safe, without this society quickly descends into chaos - as the UK riots demonstrated this year. History also suggests that these are the conditions under which extremist regimes appear.
If the UK leaves the EU I suspect it will hasten the day when it becomes economically irrelevant , many in China believe it is already on this path anyhow. Lack of investment in education, no manufacturing and a soon to be regulated financial services sector, I guess the UK will have tourism. Add to this the inevitable fragmentation - I'll bet Scotland will wish to stay in the EU and England's position as nothing more than a tourist attraction is assured (c.f. New Zealand).
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Still think you live in a democracy? - Dutchie
