I'm a member of a concert band - (mostly) amateur musicians who rehearse once a week and put on the occasional concert. A treasurer keeps track of the financial side of things, including collection of members' subs; the band has a bank account.
There's no problem in my band, but what rules govern the financial side of this sort of arrangement? If a band doesn't have a constitution (although I think mine does), and isn't a registered charity like some are, what stops the treasurer from pocketing at least some of the subs? What rights if any do the members have regarding for example viewing of band account bank statements if they think money is 'going missing'?
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It's basically a club, isn't it? It would be usual to have accounts, which for something like that only needs to be an annual statement of income and expenditure with a cash and bank balance. Herself treasures for the village hall and the WI, and that's essentially all they do.
Regarding rules and rights, I don't think clubs are regulated yet! It would be good practice to have at least 2 signatories to the bank account, either of whom could check the balance with the bank if they wanted.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 13 Oct 11 at 20:45
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Thanks Manatee.
To give a bit more info - friend is member of a band whose balance has dropped a fair bit over the last year, and wants to know why. Treasurer has as yet ignored friend's requests to provide accounts; rest of band either aren't aware or don't care.
Friend doesn't want to start making unsubstantiated accusations; what can they do? Just keep asking for accounts, and hope others eventually catch on and join in? It does seem a bit odd.
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Sounds like someone might be on the fiddle...
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>> Sounds like someone might be on the fiddle...
Hopefully not, but that's friend's suspicion.
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I've done a few club treasurer on the take court cases.
The treasurer's reluctance to answer legitimate questions about the finances is fairly typical of how the dishonesty starts to emerge.
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>> Sounds like someone might be on the fiddle...
woosh! over their heads Humph, another pun wasted.
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>> >> Sounds like someone might be on the fiddle...
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>> woosh! over their heads Humph, another pun wasted.
Ah - got it! Sorry, it's a concert band - none of those horrible stringy things.
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 13 Oct 11 at 21:24
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>> Sounds like someone might be on the fiddle...
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I think that was a pun. :)
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Tricky among friends I suppose. Though the moaners on the village hall committee never show any embarrassment about demanding to know exactly who spent how much and on what.
Some people think it's good practice to change the treasurer every 2-3 years, for obvious reasons. The usual problem is finding somebody else willing to do it.
If there's a reasonable amount of money involved I think your friend just has to persist - but he or she should be prepared to take on the treasuring if the current incumbent takes the huff!
Suggestion - "I think it's important we do these things properly - if you haven't time, in fairness to you we should transfer the job to somebody who has."
Trustworthy or not, the treasurer who can't produce a simple balance is in an awkward position. For their own protection they need to produce the statement.
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I've been involved in a couple of working spaniel clubs. Whilst many of their rules are set by the kennel club, they all consisted of a comittee with a treasurer, 2 signatories for the bank account, and someone to sign off the accounts - usually an accountant 'friend'. There is nothing to stop someone running off with any money, but it obviously becomes a criminal offence. They basically run on trust.
I know a couple of clubs where it happened. Something comes over old Johnny who's been in the club for donkeys years, and the money vanishes.
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Was on committee of a YHA local group many moons ago. We met approx monthly when office holders would report briefly on activity within their remit. Treasurer would typically report balances at bank, any major incomings/outgoings and any issues with eg arrears of subs etc. Much to be said for that sort of routine - if somebody was slacking it didn't take until the AGM to find out.
Is there a possible rational/innocent explanation for decline in funds. Might there be tours or, and this one caught out the YHA group in a previous downturn, big hikes in hire charges for buildings used for meetings.
Other office holders, particulalry the Chair, Secretary and auditor need to act in concert (sorry) to ensure treasurer is kept on his toes.
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>> Is there a possible rational/innocent explanation for decline in funds.
Hope so. But friend used to be treasurer so knows the typical ordinary and extra-ordinary expenses. And it's a small band - friend knows most of the committee fairly well. And it's a large drop compared to last year.
>> Might there be ...
no
>> Other office holders, particulalry the Chair, Secretary and auditor need to act in concert (sorry)
>> to ensure treasurer is kept on his toes.
That's where the current system appears to be falling down.
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I'm in a small motorbike club...about 20 members now but we have a chairman, treasurer, committee, etc.
If the band has the same set-up then do you have an AGM ? If so, the treasurer should present a set of accounts then and give a copy to each member. Could an EGM be called to examine the books ? Our treasurer died suddenly earlier this year but he'd always kept a meticulous record of everything. We had an EGM then. I don't know who's doing it now but it needs a careful hand, we have £38K in the bank.
Sadly, if the club folds, the money isn't split between us, it goes to a motorcycle charity.
It's amazing how money can build up. I was treasurer of a certain one-make car club in the 70s. We thought ourselves rich 'cos we had over a grand in funds. This year's accounts arrived last week and it's grown to over £52K with good management.
Ted
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Must be enough money there Ted to fund a retro-tour of Europe - I'll pay my own way and bring a tent !
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Thanks Ted. I'll have to check with friend (who is actually on the committee) regarding the AGM; I think it might have been held recently.
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>>>The treasurer's reluctance to answer legitimate questions about the finances is fairly typical of how the dishonesty starts to emerge.
Sadly so often true. I do wonder just how much this happens and is never discovered or just swept under the carpet. Locally over the last few years it's happened with the treasurer of a playgroup taking £1000 out of funds and a village hall where £500 of the bar proceeds were siphoned off over a year.
In both those cases the people were apparently normal trustworthy folks and also in both cases it was dealt with locally to avoid police involvement. I was somewhat associated with the playgroup situation and uneasy that exactly the same secrecy and refusal to fully answer questions that allowed the funds to go was used by the comittee to deal with it. The person was made to pay it back over a year but police not involved.
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...apparently normal trustworthy folks...
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy to an extent because only apparently trustworthy folks are asked to do the job.
The last two cases I covered were a mother who had it away with money from her son's football team, and a recently retired copper who stole a tidy sum from a workingmen's club.
It turned out the mother had a previous conviction for theft.
The copper was a strange one, he was in no apparent financial difficulty having just received his lump sum retirement payment, and his monthly pension was more than many people earn.
The book keeping at a lot of workingmen's clubs is shambolic, which makes it difficult to work out how much has been stolen.
Handy for the thief, because he answers for a lot less than he almost certainly took.
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.....Friend doesn't want to start making unsubstantiated accusations; what can they do? Just keep asking for accounts, and hope others eventually catch on and join in? .....
Yes , do exactly that , not even a balance sheet , just ask for the latest bank statements which should give an idea of the financial position.
Best way though is avoid the treasurer and ask people who the band needs to pay money to directly ( say hall rental, caterers, etc ) if the band treasurer has paid up promptly ...
If not , be very suspicious.
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Alternative scenario. The Treasurer is sick of the job. Paying endless bills, chasing subscriptions endlessly from people who ought to pay up but won't. Only reason for not producing the accounts is the absence of time to do so. Subsidising it out of his own funds as he cannot be bothered to collect money or reclaim expenses.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 10:34
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@Ted
20 odd members and 38k in the bank - can I join your club ?
What happens if the club folds - does the money get split among the remaining members ?
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Bora...of course you can join...it's a tenner. Leave the money in a brown envelope behind the 3rd wash basin at Piccadilly Station gent's. Actually it's a motor club so you don't need a bike.
The dosh was left to the club by a member, years ago. There's a covenant that it goes to a specified charity if it all goes boobs up. Disabled bikers or summat.
The other downside is that if the club folds, then the members have to clear the site and demolish the clubhouse.......which is a couple of interlinked portacabins.
They could have had the car park tarmacced instead of the mud and weeds which put me off going now. Nobody wants to dip into the money though.
Ted
Last edited by: Ted on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 12:47
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Used to be a motor club treasurer. If getting subs out of members or sponsors was bad enough, you try explaining at six o'clock on a november morning to a pair of massive hulking blokes that they aren't rallying as the first cheque bounced and you're not prepared to accept another.....
How do you know the balance is going down ?
Whos name is the account in ?. IIRC banks do have procedures for club accounts, and it inevitably involves having more than one signatory to the account - if there is another signatory, can they request statements ?
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The 2 signatory thing isn't failsafe. In one club I was on the comittee, the chairman (signatory 1) would sign a bunch of blank cheques in the book, and pass the book to the treasurer, who would then sign them as required. When I questioned the practice, the rest of the comittee got the hump with me, as if it was me fiddling the books.
I also questioned why we had £18000 in the bank (for a small dog club), and suggested we calculated our liabilities and requirements for the next few years, and only kept that amount as a float in the account. The rest should be returned to the current members, as it is actually their money. After I received more filthy looks, someone made the comment that perhaps I wanted a holiday, hence my suggestion.
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You make a good point Dave about the amount of cash retained. If there's no reason to have it, then it can be reduced either by doing good (which is what we do in our Horticultural Society, a declared aim of which is to "benefit village life") or reducing/removing subs for a while. Returning to the members tends to be contentious as to how is is apportioned and why.
And of course you have a point about cheque signing. That said I countersign cheques for my wife that way (I have pointed out to the committee that we might collude here but they didn't seem to mind...as I said, nobody wants to do it).
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions - when I next see my friend on Monday I'll pass them on.
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I recall that members of clubs can be jointly liable for the clubs liabilities....
Make sure the books are drawn up and get to see them!
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Someone at our club suggested that we took a punt and bought £20k of premium bonds.....our interest has been poor ' cos it's classed as a business account. That didn't go down well at all.
Members can be stupid, though. An increase in subs was put forward and voted down.....an extra tenner a year to make it twenty quid.
The next vote was carried..a pound a week attendance money........they hadn't worked out that that was an extra £52 a year if you went every week.
Ted
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Ted, your club has 10s of thousands in the bank, yet is charging £60 annual membership fees. For what, precisely?
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rules for amateur groups - Manatee
