Im back for a guest spot, have kept an eye on you lot whenever I can get online, but circumstances mean I need to ask something for an intelligent answer, so NHS Direct is no use :-p
Some may remember my back issues and I went through physio, made some improvements, felt much better, but basically I reached the end of what the NHS would fund re physio and within 3 weeks Im fast deteriorating, despite keeping up with all the exercises.
So any clues what I should aim for next? It seems theres a credit limit on physio, so if I go back to my GP, is he likely to just send me for more or are there other options?
From what my physio told me, there is permanant damage in both my lower back and neck which wont get better and all I can hope for is to slow the rate of wear and keep mobile.
Problem is my back doesnt seem to agree and work is fast becoming almost impossible, im already having trouble with stairs and my right arm is going numb, not to mention the pain which is vengeful.
Any advice?
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Trapped nerve?
Stop exercises for a week.
I occasionally have back pains .. with a fairly active exercise program. I just stop all back exercise for a week and find heat and cold alternating - hot water bottles and ice - relieve the pain and speed recovery.
Not a medical expert so ignore if unsuitable.
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Think i said this last time, orthotics in your shoes to change your posture slightly.
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>> Trapped nerve?
>>
Tend to agree. I had similar symptoms back in the mid-1990's, having been fobbed off with pills and cortisone injections for several years, a more enlightened GP in Derby suggested physio. Six weekly visits to Derby Royal infirmary, sorted.
That cured it for a while, it started to come back about 4 years ago, went to see a chiropractor and he diagnosed a curvature in my spine which was pinching on a nerve, producing exactly the symptoms you describe.. Four weeks of weekly treatments, then down to two monthly visits, now I just go for a check-up every six months.
The secret is to persevere with the exercises they will give you, and have a hot bath or shower immediately after every treatment session. GP's tend to be a bit sniffy about chiropractors, and I wouldn't for one minute claim they're a cure for all ills, but it worked for me.
Wifey had a similar problem with lower back, but caused by an industrial injury. She uses orthotic implants and they've made a huge difference. Time and correct exercise is the biggest healer with back injuries.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 11 Oct 11 at 19:42
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My lower back is OK so far but I do have neck problems which have been bad - at one point I couldn't raise my left arm above the horizontal owing to nerve damage. Fortunately it recovered.
My neck damage has what is, apparently, the usual cause - the head being pushed too far forward, putting an S into the cervical spine. The usual exercises which I'm sure you've had, if your is the same, being the 'chicken', pushing the head back while keeping the chin level, the 'Ds' lifting the shoulders and then moving them backwards and downwards back into position, and the sideways mobility - pushing the head back and turning it from side to side - being very careful with that one.
By means of these exercises I can control it it 99% of the time which is good enough. But I find less is more and if I overdo them I get pain.
What does help me is to be aware of the position of my neck. Sitting at a desk or table, if I need to get nearer to what I am doing I must incline my whole spine forwards while keeping my head pushed back. Any slumping is likely to bring about pain and pins+needles in my fingers.
I also have to choose pillows very carefully so that when I am on my side my head and neck are in line with my back - otherwise I will wake up in pain and with a dead hand/fingers. Again I try to make sure before I doze off that my head is pushed back (chin level) to avoid that 'S' curve in the neck.
Note that I am talking about me, not you. But my problems basically come from that neck posture and apparently it is very common, especially amongst desk workers who crank their necks to get nearer to a screen. If the seat will tip forward, to incline the whole spine, that helps - for a non-adjustable chair a wedge can help (used to be sold in Staples for not much).
You have my sympathy - it's a pain in the neck. You might be overdoing the exercises - maybe cut back a bit but pay attention to posture/neck position?
As I say, I am talking about me - even a doctor wouldn't advise you blind.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 11 Oct 11 at 20:02
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My posture is apparently spot on, physio said it was great considering my job which involved alot of arkward positioning.
The problem as I understand it is wear on the joints in my spine, both in my upper neck and lower back and until recently, every couple of weeks the physio was individually working on them to maintain my movement, but with that now exhausted, she basically said that physio couldnt undo whats already done, sorry, NHS computer says no more.
I dont understand the mechanics of why the joints start to jam solid, but even if I was pain free, the movement restriction is detrimental to daily tasks and I want to try and tackle it before it has serious consequences for my life ( I cant stretch enough to put my socks on again now, its basic but scary ).
She told me that it is common in manual labourers like myself who start at a young age, esp bricklayers apparently and almost certainly down to the huge hours I used to work in the trade. She said the symptoms will have been building for years but as its gradual initially, you dont realise until damage is done.
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>> used to work in the trade. She said the symptoms will have been building for
>> years but as its gradual initially, you dont realise until damage is done.
>>
The trade? Do you mean car valeting? If you have been doing the work without using the correct lifting and bending postures, that will be the cause.
Ask your GP to refer you to a consultant.
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>>The trade? Do you mean car valeting? If you have been doing the work without using the correct lifting and bending postures, that will be the cause.<<
Well, its like this, my back hurts so I go onto my knees instead, but these are also worn out ( they often lock as theres much play in the joints ), my neck may be from a car accident back in 2006 ( physio thought so ), so Im sort of generally falling apart although my back is more recent.
Yes car valeting, 14 years now.
Can you really just ask your GP for anything? Mine have always been keen to get me gone quick, I went through a whole doctors practice with a problem and over two years later im no better - I dont have much confidence in GPs these days, they do seem to find it rather inconvenient when they cant give you Ibuprofen for it.
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>>Can you really just ask your GP for anything?
It certainly wasn't the GP that helped me sort my neck out. He had me on horse tablets. Sent me for an x-ray which showed that I didn't have a broken neck, then more horse tablets.
I suggested the physio, for which there was a 3m waiting list but he thought it was a good idea (!), so I went on the insurance, about £50 a session. After the intitial sessions, I would only go back for a couple at a time which came within the excess anyway so I just paid for them.
When I had the non-working arm, the physio arranged through the GP a referral to a consultant shoulder man, as she thought it might be a bust supraspinatus tendon. He determined it wasn't, and sent me to the nerve man. I had an MRI and some other tests which pinned it to the nerve damage. Again on insurance - I think the MRI on the neck was about £900.
My GP didn't seem to know much to be honest. On my first visit to the physio, she asked me which fingers usually went numb. She then went to a big poster with a nerve wiring diagram on it and pointed to the problem area. I still don't understand why the GP didn't even get that far.
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>>there is permanant damage in both my lower back and neck<<
Was there a specific incident that caused the damage, or have you just suffered with back pain for quite some time?
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you would like to have a scan .to see wants going on. you need to go round in circles for about 2 years before they send you for one.
good luck with that one
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I sympathise, as I have sciatica and lower back pain.
Physio. was tried + exercises to no avail, so back to the GP who sent me to a clinical physiotherapist who recommended an MRI scan.
Still waiting for the results, but if an operation will cure it, I will surely have one, as it is limiting my ability to walk too far and thus annoying SWMBO who wants to get out of the house occasionally!
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I have problems on and off with my lower back. Caused by a car accident when I was 21.
My chiropractor tells me that the damage is permanent, bit the odd trip to him has kept my back in good nick over the last few years. I have a few exercises that he gave me to help build the lower muscles.
Every couple of years I normally get a flair up, but twice weekly visits for a few weeks sort me out again.
If the issue is your back then I guess you have nothing to lose by seeing a chiropractor
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God, I'm glad I'm healthy - at least I've got that.
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...I'm glad I'm healthy...
You will need to be to push-start that car of yours. :)
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>> God, I'm glad I'm healthy - at least I've got that.
>>
Part of my problem was caused by what several people, including a GP and my current chiropractor, refer to as "trucker's back."
Caused mainly by sitting in one position for long periods of time; one possible reason for the lessening of my symptoms in recent years is that my current job involves more multi-drop and physical handling than a lot of jobs in the driving sector.
Since you're in the same trade, Dave, I'd suggest that prevention can be better than cure, at least find out the exercises and start doing them.
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If it is the nature of the work you do then is it time to consider changing that work? Mobility is more important. Do you have insurance cover for this type of thing? It might pay for private physio or pay out enough to give you time to switch career to something that isn't going to damage you any more.
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I hope anyone with these back problems can get treatment (even if ongoing forever) on the NHS. Got to be better for the person with the problem and might avoid payments for incapacity benefit too. Win-win.
Someone I know has some real problems with their lower back. I think a couple of the disks have disintegrated pretty much totally! So he's in pain most of the time.They could operate but the risk is high he'd end up paralysed. So has to live with it for now - when it gets too bad then the risks might be worth it.
Remind me Stu, what was/is the problem with your PC. Can one of us help?
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>>Remind me Stu, what was/is the problem with your PC. Can one of us help?<<
Screen ( cable&bezel ) and keyboard. Im borrowing one this evening so I can do some correspondance.
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You know, I thought about it, but what I do is all ive ever known, I can do it in my sleep and with the economy looking so very shaky, risking an income stream that is fairly steady if not huge seems incredibly risky.
I know what your saying, I was advised to leave the profession 6 years ago due to a shoulder injury but Im far more careful than I used to be, I dont do big hours anymore.
Thing is, my back hurts when I stand, it hurts when I walk and it hurts when I sit. Only way I can be pain free is to lie down with a pillow in the arch of my back and another supporting my neck. I have another medical issue which causes a degree of pain aswell but docs cant sort it.
I cant think of a job that involves lying down, other than one of the older trades, but I think not :-p
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see my reply at Tue 11 Oct 11 22:53
>> but what I do is all ive ever known,
>> I cant think of a job that involves lying down, other than one of the older trades, but I think not :-p
The way you are heading, you will be lying down in your bed doing nothing for the rest of your life.
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>>The way you are heading, you will be lying down in your bed doing nothing for the rest of your life.<<
BMW X6 on Motability then :-p
My physio said that pretty well any physical activity will aggravate my back and sitting for more than half an hour is painful, job suggestions on a postcard. As it is I have the option of long periods of rest, not sure many employers would be keen on that and I wouldnt blame them.
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>> BMW X6 on Motability then :-p
:-)
>> Screen ( cable&bezel ) and keyboard.
Can you elaborate? Keyboard easily/cheaply replaced. As would a cable for a monitor if it's not hard wired at the monitor end.
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Not really, I dont know myself, thats what I was told but I have no money available for it.
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>> Not really, I dont know myself, thats what I was told but I have no money available for it.
Hence saying one of us might be able to help figure out and fix the problem(s). :-)
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Its ok dont worry, restricted access to the net is quite good for the soul and I may get it fixed as a birthday prezzie next year.
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If your back was okay I'd say you could wash my car tomorrow and I'd fix it :-)
How about a coffee instead? I have a spare keyboard. The monitor things might be easily fixed/resolved.
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Tomorrow its a half hour of stretches, a searing hot shower, 3 coffees and some ibuprofen to get me through 90 minutes of mopping up a grannies 14 year old Corsa thats faded - I cant wait!
Dont worry seriously, I feel better for not spending so long online, I think its bad for my health anyway, thanks though.
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>> I feel better for not spending so long online
But you seem to need a working computer for work too occasionally... offers there. Not going to cost you either. Well a coffee.
I agree about the spending time online though.... can take up a lot of time.
I've not been on a long enough drive of my new car yet too.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 12 Oct 11 at 00:23
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My joints are 'knackered' - the official medical term according to an osteopath.
It started with my knees, then golfer's elbow, neck problems, arthritic thumbs, an impinged shoulder and finally a clicking jaw (there's probably others that I can't recall at the moment).
I've a wealth of exercises that work, to varying degrees, so far.
I also take fish oil, glucosamine and chondroitin supplements. My GP tells me they may not help, but in his experience the conditions can worsen if you stop. They don't cost much, don't do any harm (except as a laxative if taken in too high doses) and don't cost much.
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I've suffered from back pain since my late teens and have occasional flare ups varying in pain. Professionals and sufferers will give you a variety of advice but I will tell you what works for me. I always try to keep moving and it generally works its way off over time. Once you have a weak back thats it, its a case of managing it and trying to avoid things that set it off.
I've had a 'slipped disc' and sciatica twice leaving me immobile. I put 'slipped disc' in inverted commas because they don't slip they burst. Bit like an onion ring with fluid gradually bursting through the rings until its pressing on the spinal cord and causing numbness/tingling in the legs.
I used to spend a lot of time messing about with cars and adopting unusual positions for long stretches then lifting heavy items in the garden. Scrapping with the great unwashed has also set off pain. When the back goes it goes into spasm which causes you to lean to on side and walk like you've messed yourself.
The best thing I've found is swimming, which I hate, but it has got things on the mend again. Not spending too much time sitting/slouched about in one position. A change of mattress to a good memory foam one has helped enormously.
The best bit of kit though has been one of those stretchy neoprene weight lifter belts with velcro adjustment. It supports the weakness in your back and keeps it warm while things get a bit better. So if your working and bending over a lot it provides that support. Pulls the belly in a bit as well :-) . I've always worn the belt when skiing as that causes great strain on the lower back. For some reason I seemed to get a flare up just before skiing holidays but got through the holiday with the belt.
Some advice is not to put something hot on the back. My experience, and advice from the Physios at our Convelesant home (there is no financial incentive to keep you coming bacK) is something cold as you are trying to reduce swelling.
Further advice if you are doing a lot of driving is to recline the seat slightly not sit upright as this is pushing the lower spine out.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 11 Oct 11 at 23:41
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Orthapaedic bed tester? :)
Swimming is supposed to be good for bad backs.
I'd also give those strange kneeling chairs a whirl as they might allow you to sit differently.
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Suggested this before too...Devils Claw extract, it works for many.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 12 Oct 11 at 00:45
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I would add this:
I started yoga 11 years ago... one 2 hour session a week.
Great for spinal mobility , legs etc...
Some members of our class are over 70: some are in their teens.. Not many men though...
Last edited by: madf on Wed 12 Oct 11 at 07:31
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I ain't saying nothing - Fullchat said it all (good post!)
Ere's some more ~ www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?f=5&t=3363
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stu, are you carrying any extra weight. when i was much heavier i had very bad back pain but now ive lost 2stones i feel much better. i know your joints are worn but it may help.
ask doc for more physio sessions, you wont know till you ask. i paid 65 per session and an mri scan was £700.
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This may have been mentioned already, but a chiropractor will be more use than a doctor or physio. Check the person has the qualification of the Anglo-European College of Chiropractic (I think it is called) in Bournemouth as there are charlatans about. Prepare for a rough handling but don't bother with Alexander technique, which is a milder but ineffective version.
Are you stressed in any way at work? My own back improved a lot when I retired.
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>>a chiropractor will be more use than a doctor or physio.
That's a matter of opinion, and at best depends on the "chiropractor". I'd rather stick with a qualified physiotherapist.
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The best that can be said for chiropractic is that it probably doesn't do much harm other than to your wallet. A lot of people see it as a load of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo
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I’ve suffered from back trouble on and orf since the 1980’s due to bending over cars all day for a living, the excruciating pain has brought me to tears on more-than one occasion,
I had a spell of back trouble about 3 years ago which was instantaneously cured ... by my dog!
I took him out one morning, walking like an old man but doing my best to stand up straight, when Milo shot orf after a G/Retriever in a gated garden that always barked at other dogs as they walked past,
The pull on the lead from my demonically strong R/Ridgeback twisted my body around and miraculously put my back, back!
So, I would recommend visiting an Osteopath for anyone with such back trouble as I occasionally suffer i.e. the muscles go into spasm so that when you look at your body in the mirror it is twisted to one side (skew wiff) because that is what they are able to do – put your back, back, in many cases.
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I crshed lumbar verterae 50 years ago in an accident but am 99% pain free now. When I do get pain it seems to be a muscular spasm which is cured by the industrial strength Brufen - not the ibu-. These things are pink, the size of Smarties, from your GP and are the real Biz!
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Brufen and Ibuprofen are the same thing. IIRC Brufen was an early brand name and Ibuprofen is the generic term. Originally it was prescription only.
Both come in a variety of dosages and relaase forms - 400mg is the max available over the counter.
www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000387.html
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A great deal more than your wallet could be damaged, CGNorwich, which is why it is best to use a qualified practitioner. The Bournemouth School (a university) has an ante of 260 A-level points for entry and takes 5 years full time for its MSc. My own practioner has a Doctorate in the field. Most of the tutors have medical degrees as well as specialist skills, to avoid suspicion of mumbo-jumbo. Expect about £35 per 15 minute session but with a free inital consulation. I have found doctors, physios and osteos useless for the purpose.
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As far as simple manipulation of the spine is concerned to alliviate lower back pain is concerned chiropractors can certainly be of some help but so again can conventional scientifically trained professionals like physiotherapists. Its all the mumbo jumbo that forms the basis of their pseudo medical methods that worry me. Certainly don't listen to them on anything other than back pain
I'm not sure that I would want to be treated by someone who follow the teachings and practices of a grocer and magnetic healer from Iowa who propounded the theory of chiropractic back in the nineteenth century.
www.skepdic.com/chiro.html
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Back disorders are all they claim to fix and, in any case, most science developed from mumbo jumbo. What is regarded as orthodox medecine differs from country to country and is to a great extent based on sympathtic magic, hence the well-known placebo effect. Some while back, as part of an OU degree, I read of experiments done whereby patients presented identical symptoms to several different doctors and got a number of different diagnoses. I expect they would all work, if patients believed in them.
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No-one cures back pain.
Lots of things may give temporary symptom relief - drugs, exercises, heat, chilli paste, manipulation, TENS, massage, etc etc.
As long as the cause of the pain is established (or at least any sinister causes are excluded) then do whatever works.
If the back pain eventually goes away then it's generally time that helps - and avoiding whatever brought it on in the first place.
**EDIT** - as for the 'mumbo-jumbo' of chiropractic, it goes into the same pile as homeopathy... "You need a course of 12 treatments over the next 6 weeks at £40 a go, then a 'top-up' every 3-4 weeks for ever. We do discounts if you take a package of treatments." ~ cynical? moi?
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 14 Oct 11 at 18:46
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Unresolved Back Pain - madf
