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Spurred on by iffy's use of a particular word - my first boss was old - very old. He regularly used the word "shewn" instead of the conventional "shown" - he was a compiler of Readers' Digest word quizzes in his spare time, so I guess he knew his onions. Anyone else come across that usage ?
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According to my dictionary, valid but archaic.
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I've come across it in old legal documents in the past
There's a few of these...Sill or Cill, etc.
Ted
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Shew is an alternative spelling, pretty much dead now except as an affectation.
I think it lingered on in legal usage - perhaps still does.
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He was a cantankerous, arrogant old git....with a touch of what these days would be called OCD ! Not a good role model !
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Valid but archaic, quite right.
I haven't ever used it myself though. It's a bit annoying somehow. Pettifogging. Lawyerish.
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I've seen it in legal docs and occasionally in advice or memoranda written by older, probably public school/Oxbridge educated lawyers and Senior Civil Servants. Very vague recollection of somebody firmly in the Oxbridge lawyer mould trying to correct some uses of shown to shewn.
Fronliners and footsloggers as archaic even at the start of my career in 1979.
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I used to work at an Army base, and the reception desk had a sign; "All passes must be shewn". I used to think it odd, but with a couple of soldiers standing by with sub-machine guns, I just used to whip it out as told.
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'I say chaps, no offence, but don't you think it's a bit odd to spell sh -AAAAARGH!', you mean Londoner?
Quite right. Discretion is the better part of valour.
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>> I just used to whip it out as told.
>>
And your pass?
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ST you are very naughty, but I'm a bit embarrassed now.
What I meant was that I didn't argue - just quickly got my pass out of my pocket and displayed it prominently to the troops to check my photo.
It's started me off down memory lane now. I loved working for the Army and the Navy.
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>> ST you are very naughty, but I'm a bit embarrassed now.
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Sorry... didn't mean to cause embarrassment or offence - just a friendly poke in the ribs kinda jibe...
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.
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>> It's started me off down memory lane now. I loved working for the Army and
>> the Navy.
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Perhaps you were the commissionaire, asking suspicious customers to shew their bags ?
:)
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>> Perhaps you were the commissionaire, asking suspicious customers to shew their bags ?
>> :)
>>
Nah! Nothing as good as that - a real job that delivers a tangible benefit.
I was in IT, working as a Systems Programmer. In fact, my entire life has been wasted on computers.
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Fact of the day:
The word "shew" appears 294 times in the King James Bible
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but interestingly (?)no use of shewn. The past participle used is "shewed" which occurs 175 times.
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Come to think of it, I think that's the only place I've ever seen it....
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We are shewing our erudition!
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In the 1960s I used to commute into central London on the Southern Region railway.
I still remember the sign above the entrance to the platforms:-
"All tickets must be shewn"
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Shew and shewed appear several times in my Grandad's WW1 diaries - in beautifully neat writing and virtually perfect grammar and spelling, despite him leaving school at age 14.
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...virtually perfect grammar and spelling, despite him leaving school at age 14...
There was a time, many years ago, when children at school were not kids, they were scholars.
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"...children at school were not kids, they were scholars."
They were "scholars", then "pupils" and currently they are officially formally referred to as "students".
My father (b. 1911) left school at 14 and his handwriting was a work of art; his spelling, punctuation and grammar spot-on until he was affected by dementia late in his life.
Another pair of almost-identical words (or forms of the same word) for your consideration: proved and proven.
An article in the Daily Telegraph today discussing the apparent ability of neutrino particles to travel faster than the speed of light uses "proven". I would argue this is incorrect. These days "proven" is correct in legal contexts only. In other contexts it is archaic - or maybe just a journalistic fad like the use of "an" in front of words like "hotel", which you seem to see in newspapers and nowhere else - another example of archaism.
Similarly, "got" and "gotten". In British English "gotten" is archaic, surviving in phrases like "ill-gotten gains". In American English, however, it is current and may indeed be making a come-back in British English, influenced as it is by transatlantic usage.
The Americans use "fall" for autumn; this is again an archaism in British English, but - make no mistake - we used it first.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 23 Sep 11 at 11:59
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...They were "scholars", then "pupils" and currently they are officially formally referred to as "students"...
Some school buses in County Durham have 'Scholars' marked on the destination board.
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Proven for me every time.
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>In other contexts it is archaic - or maybe just a journalistic fad like the use of "an" in front of words like "hotel", which you seem to see in newspapers and nowhere else - another example of archaism.>
Not so.
The "an" in front of a letter whose first letter is an aspirate such as "h" in hotel is still perfectly correct in modern usage. In fact, in this instance, it is not wrong not to pronounce the "h" and say the words almost as one - "an otel".
"A" hotel is just ugly when said, so I feel that for clarity it should be written "an hotel"
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- 'The "an" in front of a letter whose first letter is an aspirate such as "h" in hotel is still perfectly correct in modern usage.'
Questionable; "history" does not attract "an". "An history lesson"? - I don't think so. "An heart attack?" - No. "Hotel" only does so in pretentious usage because people "know" it comes from French, where the h is not aspirated.
- 'In fact, in this instance, it is not wrong not to pronounce the "h" and say the words almost as one - "an otel".'
Are you telling me you say "'otel?" I have never - ever - heard a native English speaker do so.
- '"A" hotel is just ugly when said, so I feel that for clarity it should be written "an hotel".'
Whether it's ugly or not is a matter of opinion - I don't find it so. Clarity doesn't come into it - the meaning is not in question.
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The Hotel:the H is pronounced.
An Hotel: the H is not pronounced.
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 26 Sep 11 at 17:32
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So why is 'a hotel' ugly and "a home' not?
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>> ...virtually perfect grammar and spelling, despite him leaving school at age 14...
I feel certain he would have written "despite his leaving school"
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I feel certain he would have written "despite his leaving school"
Well done, that man.
Probably he would. Today, however, it seems unnecessary to use "his", rather as the split-infinitive rule and the "dangling preposition" rule are generally ignored. All of these usages are well on the way to becoming archaic.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 23 Sep 11 at 12:04
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>> I feel certain he would have written "despite his leaving school"
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>> Well done, that man.
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>> Probably he would. Today, however, it seems unnecessary to use "his", rather as the split-infinitive
>> rule and the "dangling preposition" rule are generally ignored. All of these usages are well
>> on the way to becoming archaic.
>>
Good god man! Saying that language changes you'll be flogged to death, don't you know! ;)
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"Saying that language changes you'll be flogged to death..."
The only languages that don't change are dead ones - e.g. Latin.
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>>The only languages that don't change are dead ones - e.g. Latin.
My daughter's reason for studying it at university - there's nothing new to learn!
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my misses speaks flewent latin and her first language isnt english but she puts me to shame when it comes to the meaning of english words, well i am comprehensive 70s style educated after all :) bone noctem
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"my misses speaks flewent latin and her first language isnt english but she puts me to shame when it comes to the meaning of english words, well i am comprehensive 70s style educated after all :) bone noctem"
Please check with your other half, but wouldn't "Vale" be more idiomatic than... er... what you put. Or, if you really wanted to show off: "Vale habeque somnia suaves!"
Avant may have a view on this too, with his marshy seminary background.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Mon 26 Sep 11 at 11:47
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If she speaks fluent Latin she's probaly Mrs Z.O. O'Keeper....
I'd have said (in case anyone's interested, which many may not be) 'Bona nox' or Vale habeque somnum suavem'.
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>> I feel certain he would have written "despite his leaving school"
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>> Well done, that man.
>>
>> Probably he would. Today, however, it seems unnecessary to use "his", rather as the split-infinitive
>> rule and the "dangling preposition" rule are generally ignored. All of these usages are well
>> on the way to becoming archaic.
>
............only by the ill educated!
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>> >> ...virtually perfect grammar and spelling, despite him leaving school at age 14...
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>> I feel certain he would have written "despite his leaving school"
Exactly!
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>> Shew and shewed appear several times in my Grandad's WW1 diaries - in beautifully neat
>> writing and virtually perfect grammar and spelling, despite him leaving school at age 14.
People who can grasp the writing/grammar stuff usually have it sewn up by 14. WW1 also demonstrated to the powers that be the extent of illiteracy among a large number of recruits.
Leaving school unable to read/write is not sometihng that started after the sixties!!
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When I used to work in an insurance office dealing with the public I was always surprised by the number of people of all generations who cannot read and write. Motor Insurance being compulsory is something that they cannot avoid.
Few people admit to illiteracy, the most common "excuse" is that they haven't got their glasses with them so could you complete the form for them.
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...Leaving school unable to read/write is not sometihng that started after the sixties!!...
But I suspect, like promiscuity, it became more common.
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>> But I suspect, like promiscuity, it became more common.
Or better known?
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...Or better known?...
Both.
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Stop it, Iffy - before you set Pat off about 'moral decline' and we all get spanked. Again.
};---)
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I give up, you've all reached an all time low today...and even mapmaker has joined in:)
..and that will be mortal decline if I type it.
Pat
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"Shown" or "Shewn" ? - Slidingpillar
