| Non-motoring > UK Riots Thread Volume 8. | Miscellaneous |
Thread Author: R.P. |
Replies: 60 |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 21:28
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - R.P.
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Ongoing riots thread - causes, experiences and other debates. 168835 Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 21:28
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 18:49
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Westpig
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I've been thinking about all this. There seems to me to be two camps when it comes to feedback/condemnation about these riots i.e. the 'hang 'em, flog 'em camp', which includes me...and the 'their dads were missing or unemployment causes it, etc' camp. Now I like to think i'm fairly open minded and I certainly don't think I know everything, because I plainly do not...but...I just can't get my head around the thought processes for some form of justification or understanding of why some of our citizens did this. The way I think is, anyone born in this country (or allowed to live here) is automatically privileged, because we are a wealthy nation and have probably the world's best welfare system....and...there are people in the world who are literally dying through lack of nutrition or water. So why would the former, who are exceptionally lucky in that unless they are so alcoholic or so drug dependant that a hostel won't let them in...can always have some form of roof over their head, a meal in their tummies and access to drinking water...rioting because of unemployment?...or are rebelling against society because they never had a father present. Have they not had it too easy....and don't know what real hardship is...and it's all some big excuse, to counter utter selfishness, laziness and greed? If anyone can educate me, to allow me to see it differently, please try..because there are some obviously intelligent people who post on here, who see it differently...and I cannot for the life of me work it out. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 19:03
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Robin O'Reliant
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Westpig, A read (or re-read) of "Lord of The Flies" will explain an awful lot about the reasons behind the riots and life on some of our inner city estates. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:04
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - madf
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It's all David Cameron's fault.."The results, traced in blood from Baghdad to Kabul, offer a warning of what will happen, albeit in a minor key, if Mr Cameron pursues his war against British citizens on British turf. " Mary Riddell.. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8716054/Whats-good-for-Tripoli-also-goes-for-Tottenham-Prime-Minister.html (she writes about the rights of rioters in nearly ever article.. no mention of compensation to their victims oir showing remorse...) Last edited by: madf on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 20:06
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:34
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Roger.
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Mary Riddell is a lefty, pinko - says it all, really. The Telegraphs token wet. Last edited by: Roger on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 20:34
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:36
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Westpig
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>> A read (or re-read) of "Lord of The Flies" will explain an awful lot about >> the reasons behind the riots and life on some of our inner city estates. >> Does that mean that you think that our modern society in some areas, echoes the kids environment of Lord of the Flies, in that there is no supervision or decent role models and no fear of any sanction for wrongdoing? Because if so, I agree with you. The education system now has no discipline in it. The judicial system has no spine...and the Old Bill have their hands tied behind their backs.. so those that have no proper guidance at home, don't have a 'stick' to ensure they stay on the straight and narrow, because there aren't any 'sticks'...political correctness and liberal views have eroded them all. See now I can understand that. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 21:40
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> Does that mean that you think that our modern society in some areas, echoes the >> kids environment of Lord of the Flies, in that there is no supervision or decent >> role models and no fear of any sanction for wrongdoing? >> >> Because if so, I agree with you. >> There was a report in one of the broadsheets a couple of weeks ago that said 59% of Afro Caribbeans were raised by a single parent, almost always the mother and a large proportion of those had no contact of any sort with their father. The figure for those of Anglo Saxon youths was much lower but still significant and growing. If you accept that those who grow up without a father figure in their lives are much more likely to go of the rails than those raised by two parents it explains both the high number of young people who have little or no regard for people or property and why the number of black youths taking part in the riots were out of all proportion to their numbers in society. Much of the blame for this must go to the automatic allocation of housing to single mothers. Sex education, contraception, morning after pills and even abortion are all freely available to anyone who wants or needs them but with no incentive to use them (and indeed a positive outcome for those of little ambition who decide to ignore them) it is no wonder that so many children are born not because they are wanted but as a consequence of casual sex. It is time to put a stop to this and only allocate housing to single mothers who are in real need of it, otherwise they'll just have to find space in the family home. Yeah, I know it's racist etc etc. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:06
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - MD
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| It is NOT racist at all. It is factual. 10/10 |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:11
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> some form of justification or understanding of why some of our citizens did this. You have to break it down Westpig. For example, in your sentence quoted above, 'understanding' is one thing and 'justification' another, completely different thing. Many here, including you once or twice, have seemed to think the two were synonymous. Going on from that, having a handle on what might have been some of the factors - fatherless, illiterate teenage boys, unemployment, cuts, the fact that power without responsibility is fun, a liking for the sound of breaking glass, greed, immorality (the list is quite long!) - doesn't tell you why the riots occurred. It just gives you a line on some of the factors that seem to have played a part. When one is already annoyed by the fact that riots are taking place, it seems extra annoying to have to wonder why, and to have to try to understand what was going on in the tiny little minds of those involved. It's much more fun to curse and spit and say hang 'em and flog 'em. But a serious person must at least try to work out what the background problem is, if there is one. It is not the ordinary citizen's responsibility to do this. It really falls to the politicians, civil servants and, harrumph, fuzz. Because it is they who must try to prevent it from happening again. Good luck to the poor sods. It isn't a simple matter at all. There's also the fact that this sort of thing just happens sometimes, in all or most industrial societies. It may not be possible to avoid it. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 20:15
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:35
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Dog
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Oftentimes, someone will ask a Mountaineer why they do what they do – because it’s there comes the reply! Same with the riots to a certain extent, if you asked a perp why he did the things he/she did at that time – many wouldn’t have an answer and would be full of genuine remorse, Like football hooligans, they don’t give a toss for football, they are just there for the ruck, I remember when I was at the Luton – Millwall match in the 80’s, where the hooligans ripped up all the seats and threw them on the pitch, they weren’t football fans, more like anarchists. I lived in South London, near to Peckham and Lewisham etc. until 87, and if there had been these riots in the 60’s, I would no doubt have been there, Why? Why not. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:07
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - MD
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>> Why? >> >> Why not. >> ??????? |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 20:50
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Westpig
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>> You have to break it down Westpig. For example, in your sentence quoted above, 'understanding' >> is one thing and 'justification' another, completely different thing. Many here, including you once or >> twice, have seemed to think the two were synonymous. I'd agree with that...and it irritated you at the time, not that I for one intended that. I'm glad you posted, because to some extent I had you in mind when I posted above. I think of you as a well travelled, open minded man of at least some intellect...and someone who has seen a bit of life. Your posts inetrest me, because they come from a perspective that is not always mine and you've travelled to places that I wouldn't think of or wouldn't necessarily think/dare go to...so it opens my mind.. ..but. Some of the poverty and hardship you must have seen in the world, has me thinking how on earth does AC not rant from a pulpit, when molly coddled people in the 6th or 7th richest nation in the world, with the best (probably) welfare state.. and wearing £100 trainers, are rioting...and it is suggested that poverty or unemployment could be the cause? That's the bit I don't understand. I suppose i'm saying understanding it by putting forward the option of unemployment, poverty, single mother's, no fathers, lack of religion, ..or whatever else, is giving them an excuse they don't deserve. Apologies for putting you temporarily in the limelight, but I suspect you have broad enough shoulders and who knows, I might learn something. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 21:18
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> understanding it by putting forward the option of unemployment, poverty, single mother's, no fathers, lack of religion, ..or whatever else, is giving them an excuse they don't deserve. Poverty is relative Wp. Poor people in this country - and there are such, quite a lot they say - aren't poor by extreme world standards: they don't have to scuffle for scraps of food, they don't have to live without shoes or decent clothing as some do. But they can't help being aware of the vast gap between their situation and a quite normal prosperous middle-class lifestyle. That makes them feel as poor as they are. They never give a thought to the really poor people in drought-affected areas of Africa or sprawling Asian slums. They don't know about them because - another important factor in this country - a lot of people are no longer being educated here. Successive governments are responsible for this state of affairs. And I agree with you and others who think it's a disgrace. I may pass for a 'liberal' here but I certainly think proper discipline in schools, which they had when I was a child, is a good thing. I think a clip over the ear can concentrate the mind of an idle nipper, although there are probably non-physical means that work nearly as well. Similarly, I don't really like the way courts treat toerags these days. If they leave smirking, they haven't been dealt with properly. But the rot runs deep and high. Reform, from here, is a long uphill task. Two generations of absolute carp so far. Not easy. (Thank you for your courteous remarks by the way. You flatter me and I am all blushes). You mention 'lack of religion' I notice. I am irreligious myself, but I know what you mean: lack of proper rational moral philosophy. Education again, and precept: if your role models are (for example) a succession of idle or criminal 'stepfathers' or worse still fictional characters in schlock TV, you won't have much of that. You get it from decent parents and decent teachers, and there are fewer of those than there used to be. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 21:23
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:02
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Stuu
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I dont riot because a big man with a stick will pin me to the ground and then ill get hauled off infront of alot of people looking down their noses at me, followed by, in any just society, a spell of inprisonment, which while relatively cushy in the greater picture, isnt high on my personal agenda. I fear reprisal for wrong doing, its as simple as that. I exercise self-control when my emotions say clout them, my mind says I cant get away with that action. Maybe I was taught to hold myself in a higher regard than these youths, so I set myself a higher standard of behaviour for myself. Kids are growing up not knowing right from wrong or even if they do, they dont think the punishment is worth avoiding. I dont think you can solve it without draconian measures now as the generation is already lost and rather busy procreating the next lost generation. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:29
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Number_Cruncher
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>>Poverty is relative Wp I can't agree with that - it's absolute. Phrased another way, beyond the very basics of survival, I don't buy into the Maslow heirarhy of needs model. Everything we have beyond the basics of survival is, by definition, optional; however desirable. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:41
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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The looting didn't arise because of a need, most of those who took part had the "right" phones and trainers and clothes. The looting happened because it could. Circumstance, because control on the street was lost. In effect it all happened because a small local disturbance, escalated, because the police lost control. There is always an underclass, its been there for hundreds of years, and its always going to erupt from time to time, and always has. Not just here but in any country, anywhere in the globe. The circumstances and form varies but it still happens. I for one aint gonna bust a gut worrying about it, and the government shouldn't either. Their predecessors' couldn't fix it, neither can they. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:52
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - rtj70
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>> most of those who took part had the "right" phones Of course they did - they wouldn't know to be there otherwise. I personally think things will get a lot worse. And at some point I would prefer to be outside of the UK. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:56
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Number_Cruncher
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I tend to agree Z. The rioting wasn't an intellectual or political response to any stimulus - people did it because they thought they would get away with it. It was as simple as that. To respond by attempting to "understand" is like trying to hang wallpaper with a hammer, and even if the motives of the intellectual investigators is not aiming to explain, those involved will use these arguments to attempt to explain and justify their action. This attempt to understand effectively provides spurious respectability. The tough response is right and proper - sending out the message that you won't get away with it is by far the best message that could be sent. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 23:36
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> people did it because they thought they would get away with it. And because it looked like fun. Don't forget that. >> This attempt to understand effectively provides spurious respectability. 'I done it because I'm deprived and the cuts and that', you mean? Rubbish though NC. Just because people's dumb efforts to understand stuff are exploited by toerags, do you think they should give up trying to understand? I don't. >> The tough response is right and proper - sending out the message that you won't get away with it is by far the best message that could be sent. Yes. And to give the devils their due, the authorities are now hauling in and trying many of those photographed or otherwise fingered. But the courts are behaving a bit randomly. A slap on the wrist may make one of these graduates, trainee lawyers, teachers, social workers and so on who joined in the rioting think twice. But it won't make those not in the habit of thinking like that turn a hair. For a lot of them being taken to court and given a wigging all seems very normal. |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 23:03
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> I don't buy into the Maslow heirarhy of needs model. >> Everything we have beyond the basics of survival is, by definition, optional; however desirable. Of course, of course. We may know that N_C, but most of them don't. For them it's not a question of someone's theoretical model. It's a question of how they feel and think. e.g. 'They' have more than me. So I am poor. And it's not a very big step from there for a dumb resentful bunny to think: It's not fair! Don't you remember the toerag mantra 'property is theft'? I heard that from well-educated people in the sixties and seventies. Education quite often just makes dumb nasty people dumber and nastier. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 23:05
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:12
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - MD
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>> I dont riot because a big man with a stick will pin me to the >> ground and then ill get hauled off infront of alot of people looking down their >> noses at me, followed by, in any just society, a spell of inprisonment, which while >> relatively cushy in the greater picture, isnt high on my personal agenda. >> >> I fear reprisal for wrong doing, its as simple as that. I exercise self-control when >> my emotions say clout them, my mind says I cant get away with that action. >> Maybe I was taught to hold myself in a higher regard than these youths, so >> I set myself a higher standard of behaviour for myself. >> >> Kids are growing up not knowing right from wrong or even if they do, they >> dont think the punishment is worth avoiding. I dont think you can solve it without >> draconian measures now as the generation is already lost and rather busy procreating the next >> lost generation. >> Stu. Excellent post. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:37
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> >> I dont riot because a big man with a stick will pin me to >> the >> >> ground and then ill get hauled off infront of alot of people looking down >> their >> >> noses at me, followed by, in any just society, a spell of inprisonment, which >> while >> >> relatively cushy in the greater picture, isnt high on my personal agenda. >> >> >> >> I fear reprisal for wrong doing, its as simple as that. I exercise self-control >> when >> >> my emotions say clout them, my mind says I cant get away with that >> action. >> >> Maybe I was taught to hold myself in a higher regard than these youths, >> so >> >> I set myself a higher standard of behaviour for myself. >> >> >> >> Kids are growing up not knowing right from wrong or even if they do, >> they >> >> dont think the punishment is worth avoiding. I dont think you can solve it >> without >> >> draconian measures now as the generation is already lost and rather busy procreating the >> next >> >> lost generation. >> >> >> Stu. Excellent post. >> Either of you two ever been naughty as a kid/teen/youth. Nicked stuff from Woolworth? beat someone up? little bit of vandalism? driven illegally? I bet most on here have done something like that. This pious holier than thou saintly attitude is frankly getting tiresome. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:51
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Stuu
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>>Either of you two ever been naughty as a kid/teen/youth. Nicked stuff from Woolworth? beat someone up? little bit of vandalism? driven illegally?<< No. My last physical altercation was when I was 14 and one of the bullies confronted me with a knife. I broke his arm in two places, does that count? It was hardly by choice though, it was that or risk a stabbing and I do maintain a sense of self-preservation. Ive never shoplifted, vandalised anything or driven illegally. Sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe you have done things your ashamed of and you hope that everyone else is like you perhaps. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:01
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> >>Either of you two ever been naughty as a kid/teen/youth. Nicked stuff from Woolworth? beat >> someone up? little bit of vandalism? driven illegally?<< >> >> No. My last physical altercation was when I was 14 and one of the bullies >> confronted me with a knife. I broke his arm in two places, does that count? >> It was hardly by choice though, it was that or risk a stabbing and I >> do maintain a sense of self-preservation. >> Ive never shoplifted, vandalised anything or driven illegally. Sorry to burst your bubble. >> >> Maybe you have done things your ashamed of and you hope that everyone else is >> like you perhaps. I have to say, your experience is not typical. Anyway, the broken arm was assault. So you have committed a crime and not been caught. Like most on here probably. Done things? yes. Ashamed of it? no. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:21
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Stuu
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>>I have to say, your experience is not typical<< I think you already know why that might be. >>Anyway, the broken arm was assault. So you have committed a crime and not been caught. Like most on here probably. << I did get caught. Hauled infront of headmaster. Turns out he has a strong dislike for knife crime in his school, not that common in mid 90's, so the broken arm was seen as my payback, no more said. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:52
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - MD
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Clearly I can't speak for Stu. Me. Never beaten anyone up. Had fights yes. Won some lost some. Never nicked anything from Woollies. Driven illegally. Where do you want to start Mister???? Got Nothing to do with being destructive though and the base attitude of the folk in question. It isn't 'deep' either. Just a lack of role models and discipline and missing Father's etc etc etc. And Liberal thinking...........If the Dog bites re-train it. We should be on the same side given the ten years we have been bantering, but you are contentious for the sake of it sometimes. Don't spoil your massive positives to be a pfd. xxx Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 25 Aug 11 at 00:01
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:04
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> Either of you two ever been naughty as a kid/teen/youth. Nicked stuff from Woolworth? beat >> someone up? little bit of vandalism? driven illegally? >> >> I bet most on here have done something like that. This pious holier than thou >> saintly attitude is frankly getting tiresome. >> There's a big difference between the fairly low level yobbery most teenagers get involved in for a period of their lives and taking part in riots where the police are openly targeted, those who try to protect their property from theft and mindless destruction are at risk of losing their lives, and buildings both commercial and residential are set on fire without any though or care that people may be inside, and where firefighters and paramedics are attacked as the try to do their jobs. You might find yourself getting a little pious and holier than thou yourself if your business had been looted and destroyed and you had to jump from the top window of your burning home in fear of your life. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:10
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> There's a big difference between the fairly low level yobbery most teenagers get involved in No difference at all, merely a matter of opportunity and circumstances. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:28
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Robin O'Reliant
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>> No difference at all, merely a matter of opportunity and circumstances. >> In common with most working class people of my generation I grew up in circumstances which would today be classed as poverty. Somehow I resisted the temptation to set fire to Woolworths or Tescos. I have a sneaking suspicion the standards drummed into me by my parents and teachers and the shame I would have been made to feel by my neighbours may have had something to do with that. I don't think I would have had too many people making excuses for me and blaming government policies either. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:38
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> I have a sneaking suspicion the standards drummed into me by my parents and teachers >> and the shame I would have been made to feel by my neighbours may have >> had something to do with that. >> >> I don't think I would have had too many people making excuses for me and >> blaming government policies either. In my upbringing most of the neighbours were thieving scumbags. Its a small step from tealeaving down the docks, shoplifting in woolies and firing fireworks at one another, to looting from a shop thats been broken open. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 02:27
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Pat
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Of course you're right Z, it is only a small step. It is also the boundary line that most of us knew we wouldn't cross. It was where our sense of right and wrong kicked in. It was where self control took over and common sense prevailed. Pat |
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New Tue 23 Aug 11 22:24
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Westpig
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>> But they can't help being aware of the vast gap between their >> situation and a quite normal prosperous middle-class lifestyle. That makes them feel as poor as >> they are. They never give a thought to the really poor people in drought-affected areas >> of Africa or sprawling Asian slums. Well there we are then. Ignorant and exceptionally selfish people who want instant gratification..who look at their neighbours nice things, want them, but are not prepared to work for them. We've created this false world where you can sit on your backside..and survive. We've done it through good intent, look after the needy ...but then allowed the lazy to grab a big slice as well, through lax checking mechanisms..and when the populace start moaning and demand action to right it, the left leaning politicians start to say its the well off trying to kick the poor in the shins...what a strange world we live in. Can you imagine trying to explain this to a family somewhere in the world, that sends a kid out to work, through necessity... |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 00:45
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> Can you imagine trying to explain this to a family somewhere in the world, that sends a kid out to work, through necessity... Or to beg, risking arrest... or let a daughter go to the big town where she may earn money on what we frivolously call 'the game'... quite often makes one want to cry, all that. But such people wouldn't want to know really. They would be too preoccupied with getting a crust, sandals, keeping some sort of roof over their heads... and don't even think about medical costs which are often needed and just not available. I did find it amusing in the seventies explaining to Algerians how the trade unions worked here, and what were considered normal reasons for strike action. They lived in a 'socialist' system (so called) where the compulsory unions were simply government bodies. Strikes weren't allowed and anyone trying anything like that would be arrested and done over, and if they resisted, perhaps shot. People there used to stare open-mouthed in amazement when I told them about long, gruelling, destructive strikes at BL or in the mines, just to maintain 'Spanish practices' or overmanning or obtain a regular more-than-inflation pay rise. They thought it was unbelievable. And it was really. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 24 Aug 11 at 00:49
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 05:31
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Pat
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I love this thread and read it with interest trying to formulate my own views taking others intoconsideration. I think Westpig and NC have come closest to how I feel. I find myself shocked at times because our younger generation think they are always owed things and don't have to make any effort to get them. Education, benefits, a job, nice things that a wage buys have all become something they are entitled to. Self discipline (which is what would have stopped many of the rioters), self respect and self worth seem to be a thing of the past. What's caused this change over the years? I don't know the answers, but I feel it has a lot to do with the safety net of our lax and liberal benefit system and the introduction of children having 'rights'. Take away the 'right' to eat unless some sort or work is done and there would be a start of an improvement in future generations. Pat |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 11:59
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - -
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I don't buy into the single mother most likely scenario, though many do fit a certain image shall we say. A man about the place if he has nothing manly about him is about as much use a teats on a boar. By manly i mean a man who does the right thing, has honour is honest and is respected for being a decent compassionate and fair person, cares for and provides as best he can for his family, including looking after his parents needs as they become older. Youngsters need parents they respect, not because they're tough and will beat the child into submission, but because they good role models are worthy of respect. My father has been dead around 20 years now, he is still with me in that i have to do the right thing as he would have done, i still have to meet his approval if i can. He was respected, a man of honour and honesty, his word meant something, he had little money but owed no one a bean. If children are born for the purpose of either delaying permanently the likelihood of having to find a job, and or to get a council flat and benefits, then they are off to a seriously bad start in life. I don't have the answers either, but someone will have to say enough and stop the next generation of unwanted benefit dependent children finding themselves in their biological fathers shoes, the present generation i don't know what we'll do with. If our leaders and betters actually practiced what they preached, not do as i say syndrome, showed some backbone, kept their fingers out of the till and stopped the money grubbing greed they show to all, told the truth, behaved with honour, in other words when our leaders start to gain some real respect then they have the right to lead the country back to some sort of order. Breath not held. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 12:39
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> Take away the 'right' to eat unless some sort or work is done and there >> would be a start of an improvement in future generations. I think they call that the workhouse. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:20
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - MD
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>> >> >> Take away the 'right' to eat unless some sort or work is done and >> there >> >> would be a start of an improvement in future generations. >> >> I think they call that the workhouse. >> And rightly so. You know you agree with it. Stop being deliberately contentious. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:33
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Zero
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>> >> I think they call that the workhouse. >> >> >> And rightly so. You know you agree with it. Stop being deliberately contentious. LOLOLOLOLOL I was merely stating a fact. When you had no money the only place you used to get fed was the workhouse! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 13:19
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - SteelSpark
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>> Well there we are then. Ignorant and exceptionally selfish people who want instant gratification..who look >> at their neighbours nice things, want them, but are not prepared to work for them. Probably a reasonably fair description WP. It may be that they are not prepared to work for them, or it may be that they couldn't get them if they did. There isn't full employment, and even if there was, there would still be a big discrepancy between wealth. There are other issues other than the wealth gap, but it all feeds into an idea of being marginalized. The thing is, there are some people who, if the right conditions exist, will turn to criminality (you could argue that we might all do, given the right situation). Those "right conditions" could be caused by society, or could be completely the fault of the individual, but more likely a combination. One thought is that you can't fundamentally change human nature, and so can't get rid of a propensity to turn to crime. You could, potentially, remove or at least reduce the "right conditions" as a way to lower crime. It doesn't excuse the propensity to turn to crime, rather it assumes that the propensity will always be there, so the only approach is to change the conditions. Personally, I am all for increasing punishments to change the equation, along with trying to tackle the other conditions. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 16:37
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Roger.
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Personally, I would do WHATEVER it takes to ensure the survival (in the broadest sense) of my family unit. That would include acts which may be considered unethical. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 16:45
Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Armel Coussine
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>> I would do WHATEVER it takes to ensure the survival (in the broadest sense) of my family unit. That would include acts which may be considered unethical. No doubt it already has Roger. Would you care to list those acts? ⊂:o} |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 20:56
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Focusless
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Just caught a bit of the news on the radio yesterday and I thought I heard them say that approx 1500 people had appeared in court, but there had only been 140 or so 'convictions'. Sounds like a low rate, although I guess convictions don't include people found guilty but let off (with a warning) because it was a first relatively minor offence or suchlike? |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:27
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - BobbyG
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| Focus, I think there are still a lot remanded in custody awaiting trial |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:48
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Focusless
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>> Focus, I think there are still a lot remanded in custody awaiting trial Ah, that would explain it - thanks. EDIT: or does it - the report did say 'appeared in court'? Last edited by: Focus on Wed 24 Aug 11 at 21:49
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 21:52
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - R.P.
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| They would have to appear in Court to be remanded - some will have pleaded "not guilty" as well - it'll take time. |
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New Wed 24 Aug 11 22:11
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Focusless
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| Thanks guys. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 00:30
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Iffy
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Some of the first ones to be dealt with were given stiff sentences - in court terms, if not in the minds of the public. The later ones will have seen the way the wind is blowing, so many who were planning to plead guilty and take the usual lenient sentence will have had second thoughts. It's a good tactic from their point of view, plead not guilty now, delay things a month or two, then plead guilty when the heat's died down. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 02:33
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Armel Coussine
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>> It's a good tactic from their point of view, plead not guilty now, delay things a month or two, then plead guilty when the heat's died down. Wow! Thanks for the advice Iffski. I'll bear it in mind for next time. Dem a loot dem a shoot dem a wail in Shanty Town... |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 09:48
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Zero
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14646187 I think this backs up what I said several volumes ago, better intelegence and command at the very start would have nipped this in the bud. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 09:53
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Bromptonaut
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>> I think this backs up what I said several volumes ago, better intelegence and command >> at the very start would have nipped this in the bud. The Haringey commander was on the radio this morning. Neither she nor the IPCC spokesperson inspired confidence. Both should have been communicating with the dead man's family but it seems neither were actually doing so. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 12:59
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Westpig
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>> I think this backs up what I said several volumes ago, better intelegence and command >> at the very start would have nipped this in the bud. >> ....and very easy to come to this conclusion afterwards. There are thousands of these sorts of low key things all over the city, every day of the week, some have absosutely minimal policing. Haringey Borough did have a number of officers covering it, commanded by a Chief Inspector. The Borough commander (of Chief Superintendent rank, two ranks higher) went on her pre-booked family holiday abroad prior to this and was not available, although she would have had a perfectly capable deputy. Why wasn't the Chief Inspector an acceptable 'senior officer' to listen to the families concerns, it was on a week-end, so the Supt wouldn't have been in as a matter of course. Why shouldn't the boss go on a pre-booked family holiday, during the holiday season, when she has two Supt deputies? You could argue that a shooting on your Borough is serious and maybe the boss should delay her holiday..but...some of these London Boroughs, inc Haringey, are like the wild west anyway...there's always something going on...all the more reason for the boss to get a decent break now and again...and her holiday destination was such that it wasn't a quick flight home either. The problem has arisen because of a perceived slight on the family, by the main boss of that Borough not addressing them (she couldn't because she'd gone on holiday..and might not have anyway, because being a week-end she probably wouldn't have been scheduled to work..and one of her senior management team was in, in charge of the policing..), then a lack of information coming forward, the police couldn't provide info, because they'd automatically passed it to the IPCC (Independent Police Complaints Commission) and under the protocols present they are not allowed to. It should also be borne in mind that Trident (which has its' own operational command unit) in conjunction with the firearms unit, initiated the chain of events with regard the shooting, so although Haringey Police may well have been aware something was going on (they may not), they certainly wouldn't have known much to tell the family and no doubt that increases the families frustrations...and Trident (who would have known more) couldn't because of the protocols mentioned above. Then you have a few hot heads o/s Tottenham Police Station that reacted badly to the arrest of a teenage girl who threw a stone at police officers...then off it went......and even then that could have been contained, but whilst the hot heads were stoning the police and setting fire to police cars, an older element, nothing to do with the original march, started looting and it all got out of hand, before properly equipped reinforcements could be arranged. The rest is history. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm not saying there weren't errors, but someone sat in an armchair in their own living room, after the event, can make perfectly judged considerations, can't they. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 13:47
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Iffy
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There's too much 'family this' and 'family that', in my view. A day or two after the shooting, the IPCC said they had spoken to 16 members of the family. Why? Were they witnesses? Victims' families may have been kept too much in the dark in the past, but I think the pendulum has now swung too far in the other direction. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 14:08
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Cliff Pope
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>> There's too much 'family this' and 'family that', in my view. >> >> >> >> And too much "community" . I object to being classified as part of this or that community, and I don't have any self-selected "community leaders" either. If anyone else in my supposed community wants to "grieve" or "come to terms" with anything, they can do it on their own thank you. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 19:43
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Zero
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>> The rest is history. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I'm not saying there weren't errors, >> but someone sat in an armchair in their own living room, after the event, can >> make perfectly judged considerations, can't they. Yes, they can. And it wouldnt need an expensive enquiry or 15 gazzilion threads about the poor misunderstood rioters would it. Stuff like that you either smooth over, or crack down on it early. They did neither. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 22:46
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - CGNorwich
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Some unreported footage of the Norwich Riots; www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjRPpVjtCwQ |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 09:51
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Bromptonaut
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Those pleading not guilty might also be hoping the Court of Appeal will have offered some sentencing guidance. However, according to the most recent statement from the Judicial Office no appelas have yet been lodged. The same site also carries a transcript of sentencing remarks for another bunch jailed in Manchester - tinyurl.com/3exohtc (opens link to small pdf). An eclectic mix of addicts and opportunists. |
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New Thu 25 Aug 11 10:35
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Iffy
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Another point is some experienced cons like to chalk off as much of their sentence on remand as they can. Remand prisoners are not guilty prisoners, so qualify more easily for privileges, although they are still locked up. |
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New Mon 9 Jan 12 01:01
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - VxFan
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Zero said in vol 2 www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=7455&m=165459 >> Yesterday I bought a loaf of bread, opened last night to find a: its mouldy >> and b: it has a sell by date of the 5th Aug. >> Kicked up a fuss, >> Ended up with new bread, 20squids gift voucher, and a free lemon drizzle cake!!! You did better than me at my local Tesco on Sunday. Bought a "freshly baked" Brambly Apple pie for £1. Got home and noticed it was 1 day out of date. Thought it would still be ok to eat as have eaten O. O. D. stuff before, but no, the pastry was starting to show mould on it. So much for it being "freshly baked". Took it back and all I got back was my quid. No apology, manager unavailable, etc. Time for an email to Tesco expressing my dismay. |
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New Wed 11 Jan 12 00:56
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - VxFan
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>> Time for an email to Tesco expressing my dismay. Very quick to respond. Full apology, and a £15 voucher in the post. Going on the content of the email, someone at the store in question is going to get a rollocking. |
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New Wed 11 Jan 12 07:39
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - R.P.
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| www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7SXmHq0Bk |
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New Wed 11 Jan 12 08:35
UK Riots Thread Volume 8. - Zero
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>> >> Time for an email to Tesco expressing my dismay. >> >> Very quick to respond. Full apology, and a £15 voucher in the post. HA! I am still 5 quid and lemon drizzle cake up on you then!!! < makes L for Looser sign > |
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