Interesting conversation with a landlord this week regarding rent increases in Sarf Manchester (the bits that haven't burned down).
Six months ago one of his flats rented for £750/month (two bed), which at the time was at the top tier of pricing. Now, that flat has been snapped up for £850/month.
A quick poke around RightMove shows that miserable little studio flats in Marlow are upwards of a grand a month to rent, but that property prices have plummeted, so it's not just the North.
I know Rattle's been moaning about house prices being impossible to manage for the first time buyer, but in fact it appears that it's the FTB's market at the moment.
Case in point: The flat next door to the £850/month rental is identical - down to the furniture - and is on the market for £175k.
You get 20% in an interest free loan from the government towards the deposit (£35,000) and I'm assuming £25,000 in savings as well. That gets you approximately a 35% deposit, with the repayments at about £550/month on a 25 year period.
So WHY, WHY, WHY are people still renting?
Last edited by: Alfa Floor on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 12:45
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Because people can't get mortgages. My sister is moving out and renting a miserable studio flat in West Didsbury, she did managed to knock them down to £440 a month but there is no way she could get a mortgage as her job is not secure. She earns £31k a year.
These days too many people have short term contracts, and that is no good for when you want to apply for a mortgage.
What is this government scheme you mentioned?
I reckon I could afford something at around £60k, but those areas risky to buy in, I've seen house prices plummet in parts of North Manchester over the past 20 years, where in parts of South Manchester they have increase as much as 500% in some cases.
My personal feeling is that house prices won't come down much more, but that the price of flats might do.
There is no way on earth though I would rent, I am finally getting my finances into good shape and have the money for the car insurance up front etc. So I am hoping if the property prices remain steady or fall slightly by the time I am 35-40 I may be afford my own dinky place.
If I was made homeless, I would rather live in a horrible council house in Shameless ville and pay a private landlord £500 a month for a tiny flat I can't do anything with.
Of course the other issue with buying is the problem my parents have, they cannot afford to maintain the house. Everything just gets painted all the time to hide the problems.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 12:58
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I suspect the reason most people rent is the difficulty of raising a deposit.
Rightly or wrongly, lenders are now demanding a higher deposit than they were when most of us on here bought our first houses.
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>> So WHY, WHY, WHY are people still renting?
Because they cant get the mortgage.
Normally in the old days one could get a 90% mortgage. So you need savings of £17,5k and to finance the 157k loan you would need to be earning (assuming 4 x joint income) 40 k a year. Reason one why it was tough at first.
Now you wont get a 90% mortgage on a flat - 70% max probably as a first time buyer. So you need a 52k deposit. Where is that money coming from? remember you have been paying 850 a month in rent. The government loan you mention is useless because the mortgage co take that as a liability on your earning and deduct it from the amoiunt you can pay
>> So WHY, WHY, WHY are people still renting?
If they could buy thats what they would be doing
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 13:02
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>>
>> >> So WHY, WHY, WHY are people still renting?
>> The government loan you
>> mention is useless because the mortgage co take that as a liability on your earning
>> and deduct it from the amoiunt you can pay
>>
Is it of use to anyone, or just a publicity thing?
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The cynic in me suggests 70% or so max mortgages is for a good reason.
Maybe they know house prices are approx 30% overvalued.
I wonder what the forthcoming, as they must do, interest rate increases will do, bubble burst?
As for renting, when benefits no longer cover exhorbitant private rents, will they resume more normal levels.
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Agree most houses are overvalued by around 20- 30%. If sellers were to lower their prices they would sell. That's how markets work. The houses that do sell are realistically priced but there is a huge resistance by sellers to taking a price that is less than peak value.
There are houses round here that have been on the market for nearly two years but the buyers still resist lowering the price in the forlorn hope that the good times will return some time soon.
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the housing market is mostly fueled by people wanting a change of scenery and not because they HAVE to move.
i agree that most housing is very overpriced. how on earth are people on anything less than 35k a year supposed to afford any type of house.
i have one friend who has recently bought a very nice largeish motorhome and parks it on his works frontage most of the time and he's never late for work and they feel he adds to the security as he's there most nights. they let him have electricity and water free of charge and he has to make sure he keeps the area clean. he has this in the canary wharf area and lives there for the cost of the van which was 30k about 2yrs old.
maybe people that need homes need to think differently but the town planners dont help as they seem to stop any kind of biulding or use of land that isnt a 3bed semi
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I have read several articles recently about park homes being a viable alternative.
Ive a customer on one and the park is extremely well maintained and tidier than most residential streets.
I think there is something of a stigma attached to living in what is effectively a swanky caravan, which makes them cheaper. A few in my area for around 60-80k.
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They are fine to retire to and die in, They have a 30 year life span max, and you never own the land and have to pay rent. Some of the rules are prohibitive, verging on a suspension of your human rights!
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Perhaps but a brand new one you can live in 12 months is £62k around here, if you cant afford a house and your happy with the rules ( sometimes a bit of structure isnt a bad thing ), its an option.
You never own the land if you buy a flat either ( usually anyway ) and even I rented a flat with my ex-wife, we were subject to a whole bunch of rules for parking, what doormat you could have outside the flat etc etc. Its not so different.
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>> Perhaps but a brand new one you can live in 12 months is £62k around
>> here,
www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-31528541.html
£104k round here. You must like your hair sparking in the morning and the mozzies from the swamp round the corner tho.
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130K round my way, not a bad spot, on a moderately busy road, but no nearby crack houses, maybe the smell of manure to put up with but that's about it:-
www.globrix.com/property-details/34009270-burley_road-winkton-bh23-2_bed-mobile_home
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>> They are fine to die in, They have a 30 year life
>> span max, and you never own the land and have to pay rent. Some of
>> the rules are prohibitive, verging on a suspension of your human rights!
>>
I just wonder what would happen if the age profile in a park slowly started to change from a Saga dominated majority to a group of 18 yr old ravers?
Maybe this work of art would come to afield near you .....
everyjoe.com/technology/funny-photo-trailer-park-taj-mahal/
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>> There are houses round here that have been on the market for nearly two years
>> but the buyers still resist lowering the price in the forlorn hope that the good
>> times will return some time soon.
>>
I'm selling my house at the moment, just waiting for contracts to exchange. Had to drop it in price 4 times (total 15%) to get it sold and it's supposably desirable enough and certainly in a sellable area.
Read an article on a financial page which basically said, there are half the sellers at the moment than there usally are..and of those only half of them will get a buyer..(so only a 1/4 of the buyers there usally are)... and 'only the canny seller will sell their house'. So not wanting to be here any longer and not wanting to find next year the price drops even more..it was in to the agent for a serious chat.
Dropped it for the 4th time, with the proviso if it was too cheap, they'd be fighting for it. They did. Five offers at asking and the firmest went £5K above asking, so they got it.
Conclusion: Agents need to be more honest..and more importantly lean on the sellers more, for them to be realistic. Mine pussy footed around when it came to telling me I needed to drop the price, they prefferred me to come to that conclusion... well what if I didn't (and many don't). I'd still be tring to sell it.
Another artcile has said there's a 'mexican stand off' at present, between buyers and sellers, which is madness, a house is only worth what someone will pay for it, not what you'd like them to pay for it. By all means give it a run, but after a month and it hasn't worked, get real.
Some people get pound signs in their eyes and reason goes out the window.
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The high deposits is a way of rationing. It doesn't actually reflect what banks will think will happen to prices. Deposit criteria have actually been loosened in the last few months. Higher LTV mortgages are starting to be available again which suggests banks have money to lend.
Over priced semi in my road seems to have sold. Sellers that can afford to wait around for the price they want (or need) can if they so choose. Those that can't just drop the price until someone bites. If you don't have to sell you don't have to take low offers. Only those that have to will let their place go for peanuts. Looking on rightmove with the propertybee toolbar some houses have been on the market for several years. If you can't get the price you want then often people won't move as it would be pointless to move somewhere worse as you can't guarantee the other people will drop their prices enough. Lots tend to move up the ladder so they have to get as much as possible to stand a chance of affording what they want. Nothing has changed in this respect. It just takes much, much longer to get what you want so you can buy the place you want to move to. That stand off has always been there. If buyers don't want to buy at the prices offered then they don't have to.
In a rising market any old tat will sell. In a normal market people get more fussy and anywhere with a pylon in the garden or other undesirable features will take longer. In a falling and weak market the pylon festooned home won't sell at all. Even at bargain basement prices. If there are other better and more affordable places they will always go first.
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Rattle, I've just managed it at the age of 29. I rented for 2 years was paying £500 per month (earing £18,000 at the time) to a private agent for a 1930's 2 bed cramped terrace house in my parents area (Rotherham).
One morning I woke up and decided that I wanted to move back in with parents and save for a deposit for an house. Luckily for me I managed to save £9,000 in just over 12 months and processed to house hunting.
I had a set limit in my budget (£80,000 including 10% deposit, over 35 years worked at £420 per month on average) and I wanted an house that I then didnt need to spend money on and renevating just to live in.
After a few weeks I become put off and looked at renting again! But then I saw a 2 bed house within budget in nearby (7 miles away) Doncaster in a village which although has a reputation and bad bits but the house is located on a 15-20 year old newish housing estate further down the road and as soon as I saw it I wanted it.
So, viewing was booked and my offer of £73,000 accepted (2 grand under list price). & weeks later I move in and have been here a month now. After my 10% deposit and all fess (except solicitors and booking fees) were added to the loan. This resulted in a £66,000 ish loan for 35 years at 5.49% = £356 per month + result for me! Further bills are about £200 on top of mortgage and although I earn slightly more now I still live an ok life and have about £200 spare after every planned outgoing. I was very lucky to have some furnishings bought for me which totalled £1000 though.
I can be done but you have to get ideas of fancy areas out if your head if earning under 20k per year.
My tips are;
Dont go for more than 4 x wage if possible
Pay off any loans and credit card debts forst (existing debt restrict loan amounts)
Research areas and if possible considering pertol costs move out of area?
Dont rush, a badly chosen house may be exciting at first but can be daunting and scary feeling when you move in
Sorry Rats, no easy way of saying this. You need to save for at least a 10% desposit.
With a squeaky clean credit rating and 10% deposit you will get a mortgage.
Hope it goes well.
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>> With a squeaky clean credit rating and 10% deposit you will get a mortgage.
But he won't be able to afford to buy in the areas he'd like to live in...
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>> >> With a squeaky clean credit rating and 10% deposit you will get a mortgage.
>>
>> But he won't be able to afford to buy in the areas he'd like to
>> live in...
>>
That the down side of living in a large city, move out?
I would like to live in Alderly Edge!
Last edited by: nice but dim on Mon 15 Aug 11 at 13:02
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you have to make compromises to buy your first house. Location is usually the first to go out the window.
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Exactly, after 5 years you can move into a chosen area
Last edited by: nice but dim on Mon 15 Aug 11 at 13:08
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>> Exactly, after 5 years you can move into a chosen area
>>
I remember plans like those that had to be revised quite quickly when interest rates climbed to 15% and above.
100 hour weeks to keep the unsubsidised roof above our heads and our unsubsidised children fed and watered.
That'd keep looters off the streets, too knackered to riot.
Doesn't pay to stretch too far when interest rates are unsustainably low.
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Where I ever I live I would want to be close to the city centre, but then you have the problem of the decent areas costing a fortune, and the cheap areas being rough as feck.
Some where like Gorton might be ok, because its perceived to be a lot rougher than it actually is.
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>> So WHY, WHY, WHY are people still renting?
>>
Because some of us have little or no savings - not always due to not trying to save...
My life plans changed completely due to family issues, and over the last4 years my savings have been eroded down to zero.
Im a single parent with 2 kids under my (rented) roof on less than 20k a year, and no benefits....
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This is not an easy market even for those fortunate enough to have sold their own property. Friends of ours sold their house several months ago, but because there is so little available locally that would suit their needs and very few new ones becoming available, their search is likely to go on for some considerable time.
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I've looked into the viability of setting up a park home, or even just living in a caravan, but it seems very hard to in the UK. There is also the stigma of people thinking you are travellers.
I think the government really does need to make it easier for alternative housing projects to exist though.
I would like to see a return of social housing schemes for those who have jobs etc.
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Friends of ours in Scotland bought a kit house, Scandinavian I want to remember. Had it built on some land they'd bought. Fab thing. Huge too but didn't cost nearly as much as a normal house that size even allowing for the cost of the land and the builder to screw it together. I suppose the problem in most places would br finding the land with building permission. They were lucky in so far as they were miles from nowhere.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 16:19
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>> Friends of ours in Scotland bought a kit house, Scandinavian I want to remember.
www.huf-haus.com/en/home.html
These are very popular round these parts.
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Very nice Z, but it wasn't anything as fancy as those. Looked pretty much like a largish modern house. Cost something silly like £80k built about 8 years ago. Don't know what they paid for the land but even so the whole deal was apparently pretty cheap for what was a fantastic riverside location.
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Putting together my own house, or more likely getting a builder to put one together for me, was something I really wanted to do, but building plots in my area are extremely scarce and when the rare one does become available it costs an arm and a leg.
I see that suitable plots can be bought in some parts of the country for around 100k, and at that price I would definitely give it a go.
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I sort of did it about 20 years ago in so far as I bought a derelict rural building and gradually converted it into a house. In effect I bought 3 storeys of 200 year old 2' thick stone walls surrounded by a bit of land. More or less everything else had to be replaced. Did it myself with the help of SWMBO. Quite proud of that of course but only naivety and necessity kept me going. Took much longer than I thought it would but it had to fit around work too. We got one room ( the kitchen ) habitable fairly quickly and sort of camped in there with an open fire for the first winter. It was pretty tough at times but we ended up with a very pleasing property in the end. Eventually sold it and bought a new build with no intention of staying in it but just to give ourselves a rest. That was 9 years ago, we're still in it...Might do it again one day though.
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 17:04
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I have a customer with a huf haus. Very nice indeed, ultra contemporary.
I think it was £250k plus the land which they already owned. Not cheap but its a huge house, 3 storey jobbie built into the hillside, certainly cant be short of £700k now.
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£100k is too far too much for most people though. I think I have come up with a solution though, buy some cheap land you can't build on, then dig a tunnel, and then convert that into a house.
The other cheap option would be to live in a camper van, a few people in my area do it, but you would still need an official address for that to work, has to beat paying a landllord a fortune though.
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Did you mean a teletubbies house like this one belonging to Gary Neville?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13344970
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Living in a hole or a van - Is that what it has come to?
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Beats paying landlords £500 a month to live in some damp mould infected hell hole where the neighbours play urban music every evening.
I actually really like the idea of living in a caravan/camper van, it appeals to my punk side. I just wish there was an easy way of doing it legally.
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>> it appeals to my punk side. I just wish there was an easy way of doing it legally.
Bit of a contradiction there Rattolo... surely any punk worth his salt wouldn't give a toss for doing anything 'legally'?
Never mind caravans. A properly equipped long high Mercedes Sprinter (white of course) with the biggest available engine and highest available rear axle ratio would make a perfect moveable dwelling. Skylight or two, couple of discreet peepholes sides and rear, Bob's your uncle... and they can cruise at 90 plus too.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 21:01
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You won't like the idea much when winter arrives - believe me I've done it.
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Wood burner. Little chimney. Stolen timber.
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>> In a MB Sprinter?
Why not? Obviously not on the move. That would make too much draught.
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If you rent a property through an agent they're generally of a much higher standard than the damp and rat infested efforts you would get via gumtree or small ads.
Actually a canal boat would be a better idea if you can find decent moorings. None of the travellers stigma either. Blooming cold in winter though. If you don't like the cold you'll be miserable.
Last edited by: teabelly on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 21:11
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In the winter I would just stay in the office for as long as possible, buy a very expensive sleeping back etc.
No matter what though, renting is dead money. Social housing is an option, but you have to be very lucky with your neighbours, the only places I would get are hell holes.
I looked into a canal boat a few years back, but discovered it is nearly impossible to get a residential mooring.
Most the punks I know are also very law abiding, I love the music and the anti capitalism idea but I stop short of wanting to cause a white riot.
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I like Wales, but I would find it too boring to live there. I am far too much set in my ways, I can get way with dressing for the alternative scene on a Saturday night, in say Llandudno I would probably get beaten up for being a goth or something.
That said I there are cheaper parts of Manchester, but often they are cheap for a reason.
Wales is a place I can retire to.
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With the business you have and wanting to be in Chortlon/Didsbury area.... you need to win the lottery or inherit then!
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Hence the idea of a camper van/vango tent :)
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A couple of people at work live on narrowboats a few days a week. Seems to work fine for them all year round.
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Bit like a floating fuselage eh ?
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I would last less than a day before being banned from the canals for going everywhere full throttle.
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Rents up in Bristol to. A friend has just rented out his 1 bed flat - tried to sell it but no luck, so decided to rent as they needed to buy a bigger property for a new arrival.
Was quite shocked when people were viewing and offering over his asking rent as they were desperate to get it after missing out on others. Think he was asking 800 and accepted 850
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Isn't rocket science...people are bailing out of their mortgages and can't get them, moving wholesale into the rental sector.
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There are narrowboats moored just behind our house. People seem to live on them fairly permanently. Sort of appeals in a way. Some of them look quite luxurious.
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Mock Cromwellian I expect. Isambard Kingdom Cromwell was a big cheese round here once.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 14 Aug 11 at 22:07
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>> the damp and rat infested efforts you would get via gumtree or small ads.
What utter nonsense.
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Here in Leeds in the city a town called Holbeck has many council high rise flats and old back to backs that have been compulsary bought by the council for regeneration of the area, Work started last year many are now knocked down with many more to go, so this lot that lived there are now scattered around the area and pushed up prices for the renetal market.
There's plenty more that could do with pulling down like large council estates with huge back gardens that folks won't keep tidy & this makes a prime land for building more houses on with more parking space and less grass as the lazy bone idle lot won't keep it tidy.
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Rental prices... sustainable? - RattleandSmoke
