Non-motoring > The summer riots Vol 4   [Read only]	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: R.P.	Replies: 99

New Tue 9 Aug 11 23:56   The summer riots Vol 4 - R.P.

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 5 ***** Ongoing debate Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 21:12

New Wed 10 Aug 11 00:00   The summer riots Vol 4 - crocks

(For bathtub tom from Volume 3) Here is a link to YouTube of The Great Harry in Woolwich burning. www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5kAY_2_yIg

New Wed 10 Aug 11 00:19   The summer riots Vol 4 - Dave_

(bathtub, Vol 3): >> Can anyone confirm it was part of the riots? >> I wonder what else we haven't been told? There's a lot of half-truths, untruths and downright lies circulating everywhere now. One of the consequences of a social media free-for-all I suppose. Don't forget that a significant proportion of the [UK internet] population is getting its news and information ONLY through facebook status updates or similar. I chatted to my eldest daughter through facebook this evening, my opening line was "Has it spread to [your town] yet?". Her reply was "Has what spread?"... I forwarded a couple of news links and it became clear that news of the last few days' nationwide events (or their significance) simply hadn't reached her house yet. How many dis- or vaguely-interested parties are taking part in the disorder based on such limited knowledge and awareness of the greater picture? How many are posting spurious reports of unrest where none exists, "just for a laugh"? Quite a lot, I'd guess. These reports are being taken seriously by those who struggle to grasp the frivolous nature of much online content. Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 00:22

New Wed 10 Aug 11 00:32   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

Zero, You appeared to doubt my explanation as to my marital status. Well I see that you possibly live in Surrey, and posted Staines in an earlier post. Well I'm in Ashford and would welcome you dropping in for a coffee tomorrow to see the error of your post. I don't bite ;-)

New Wed 10 Aug 11 00:40   The summer riots Vol 4 - BobbyG

Ooohhh.... A dating site now... :)       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 01:00   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

Jealous......Oh, alright, you can come too.... ;-)

New Wed 10 Aug 11 01:12   The summer riots Vol 4 - zookeeper

good god its like virtual dogging

New Wed 10 Aug 11 01:30   The summer riots Vol 4 - Pat

So this is what you get up to when I'm usually in bed? Pat       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 02:42   The summer riots Vol 4 - zippy

Just watching Sky until I can get to sleep and see that a number of people were pulled out of their cars by the rioters. Now I guess the drivers slowed down when they saw the animals in the street and therefore became victims. Would flooring it and claiming fear of life be an acceptable defense when the CPS visit with regards to killing these creatures when they are run over?

New Wed 10 Aug 11 06:44   The summer riots Vol 4 - madf

>> Just watching Sky until I can get to sleep and see that a number of >> people were pulled out of their cars by the rioters. >> >> Now I guess the drivers slowed down when they saw the animals in the street >> and therefore became victims. >> >> Would flooring it and claiming fear of life be an acceptable defense when the CPS >> visit with regards to killing these creatures when they are run over? >> As thge CPS are determined to protext the guilty and prosecute the innocent (attack a burglar and get arrested), I am sure you would get 20 years. The Criminal Injustice System is designed to give guilty people every chance to get off lightly... or preferably just escape all punishment... (Rioters guily of arson should be forced to live through a UK winter in burned out houses...to make the punishment fit the crime?)

New Wed 10 Aug 11 07:18   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

BBC report, didn't catch the location (somewhere in London) a group of residents who gathered to protect their properties were dispersed by the police. Hang on, I think it is the rioters who need dispersing!

New Wed 10 Aug 11 07:54   The summer riots Vol 4 - Iffy

I was wondering when the second death or deaths would happen. Three blokes run over and killed while apparently trying to protect their business in Birmingham: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14471405

New Wed 10 Aug 11 08:24   The summer riots Vol 4 - Old Navy

Shock, Horror, I saw a policeman using his baton on a young rioter. They are not all in fear of their jobs and pensions. And I do know how they feel, I knew a few people who fell into the pension trap and lost out due to poor judgement.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 09:29   The summer riots Vol 4 - BobbyG

Heard a 16 year old youth being interviewed on radio this morning. He said, and I paraphrase, that he has no convictions, when he loots he gets items he could never ever afford, the cells and jails are full so at the most, if he happens to get caught, he will get an ASBO. I can live with that , thats a medal of honour .

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:12   The summer riots Vol 4 - Roger.

Jails full - here's an idea. There must be lots of uninhabited islands off the coast of the Uk. Get the chosen place provided with some bivvies and basic bedding and cooking gear. Land the bar-stewards there to get on with it. Air drops of bread, water and spuds. What's left of the Royal Navy could mount an exclusion zone to stop silly rescue/escape attempts.       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:18   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

>> Jails full - here's an idea. >> There must be lots of uninhabited islands off the coast of the Uk. Surprisingly few actually. And those that are are owned by people. I did once hypothetise about abandoning Northern Ireland (during the troubles) as a no go area, quarantining it and dumping all our crims there.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:19   The summer riots Vol 4 - Alanovich

Nah. Liverpool's the place for that. NI has got decent distilleries.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:22   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

Compare and Contrast. Known gunman and criminal may or may not have attempted to resist arrest by using a firearm and gets shot. Outcome riots and criminal behaviour that we have seen. Three Asian men killed, while protecting their property. Will the Asian community riot? I don't think so, they have the dignity and self-control to see that nothing is achieved by this. Chavs - Watch and Learn.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:26   The summer riots Vol 4 - zippy

>>>Three killed. I suppose thats why the police disperse the law-abiding and leave the rioters alone. 20/20 and all that!

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:30   The summer riots Vol 4 - zippy

See that Max Hastings in the Wail is blaming "Liberal Dogma". Absolute rubbish. I suppose that they were also responsible for the riots listed below. 1355 - St. Scholastica riot, (Oxford) 1517 - Evil May Day, (London) 1668 - Bawdy House Riots, (London) 1715 - English Political Riot, (London) 1721 - English Servants Riot, (London) 1727 - English Anti-Turnpike Riot, (Bristol) 1733 - London Anti-Tax Riot, (London) 1735 - English Anti-Turnpike Riots, (Hereford/Worcester_ 1736 - Anti-Irish Riots, (Shoreditch/Spitalfields/Whitechapel_ 1736 - Porteous Riots, (Edinburgh) 1743 - London Gin Riot 1769 - Spitalfield Riots (Spitalfields) 1780 - Gordon Riots, (London) 1791 - Priestley Riots, (Birmingham) 1809 - Old Price Riots, 1809, (London) 1811-1812 - English Luddite Riots, (Leicester/York) 1814 - English Luddite Riots of 1814, (Leicester/York) 1816 - English Luddite Riots of 1816, (Leicester/York) 1830 - Swing Riots, (south and east of England) 1831 - Bristol Riots, (Bristol) 1886 - Belfast Home Rule Riots, Belfast, Northern Ireland) 1910 - Tonypandy Riot (South Wales, UK) 1919 - Battle of Bow Street, (Bow Street, London, UK) 1919 - Luton Peace Day Riots, Luton U.K. 1936 - Battle of Cable Street, (London) 1958 - Notting Hill race riots, (Notting Hill, London) 1969 - Battle of the Bogside (Derry, Northern Ireland on 12–14 August 1969) 1969 - 1969 Northern Ireland Riots (throughout Northern Ireland on 14–17 August 1969) 1970 - Falls Curfew (Belfast, Northern Ireland on 3–5 July 1970) 1972 - bloody Sunday (Derry, Northern Ireland on 30 January 1972) 1972 - Operation Motorman (Northern Ireland on 31 July 1972) 1974 - Ulster Workers' Council strike (Northern Ireland, May 1974) 1975 - Chapeltown riot Leeds, West Yorkshire ,England 1975 - European cup Final 1975, Leeds United riot in Paris 1976 - Notting Hill Carnival Riot (London) 1979 - Southall Riots, (Southall, West London) 1980 - St Pauls riot, April 1980, (St Pauls, Bristol) 1981 - Brixton riot of 1981, (London) 1981 - 1981 Irish hunger strike (Northern Ireland in May, July, August 1981) 1981 - Toxteth riots (Liverpool) 1981 - Moss Side riots (Manchester) 1981 - Chapeltown riot Leeds, West Yorkshire 1981 - First Handsworth Riot, (Birmingham) 1985 - Drumcree riots (Portadown, Northern Ireland, July 1985) 1985 - Brixton riot of 1985, September 28, (London) 1985 - Second Handsworth Riot, September 11, (Birmingham) 1985 - Broadwater Farm Riot, Oct. 6, (London) 1986 - Drumcree riots (Portadown, Northern Ireland, April and July 1986) 1987 - Chapeltown riot Leeds, West Yorkshire 1989 - Dewsbury riot 1989 - Leeds United riots / Birmingham 1990 - Poll Tax Riots, (London) 1990 - Strangeways Prison Riot, (Manchester, UK), April 1 - April 25 1990 - Salford, (Greater Manchester, UK), July 1991 - Ely Petrol Riots in Cardiff, Wales 1991 - Carlton leach riot, Essex 1995 - Brixton riot of 1995, (London) 1995 - Hyde Park Riot, July 1995, Leeds, West Yorkshire 1995 - Manningham Riot, June 1995, (Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK) 1995 - Drumcree riots, July 1995, (Portadown, Northern Ireland) 1997 - Drumcree riots of July 1997, (throughout Northern Ireland) 1998 - Drumcree riots, July 1998, (throughout Northern Ireland) 2000 - Riots between English and Turkish football fans break out in Copenhagen 2001 - Oldham Riots, May 2001, (Oldham, Greater Manchester) 2001 - Bradford Riot, July 2001, (Bradford, West Yorkshire) 2001 - Holy Cross dispute, Summer 2001, (Belfast, Northern Ireland) 2004 - Boston, Lincolnshire. 2005 - 2005 Birmingham race riots in Lozells, Birmingham, United Kingdom. 2006 - Download Festival Riots, Donnington, UK 2009 - Riots in Northern Ireland 2009 2009 - Violence at soccer/football game between West Ham United F.C. fans and Stoke City 2009 - Luton, United Kingdom 2009 – Riots in Birmingham, United Kingdom 2009 - Match between West Ham United and Millwall in London at Upton Park. 2010 - Riots in Northern Ireland. 2010 - Student riots in London, 14 injured, 35 arrested 2010 - More student riots in London. 2011 - Riots in Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, 2 injured Last edited by: Webmaster on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 09:16

New Wed 10 Aug 11 10:56   The summer riots Vol 4 - CGNorwich

An interesting argument is whether the recent events were in fact riots within the meaning of the Riot Damages Act of 1886. You will notice that the Prime Minister and Ministers have been careful to avoid the term riot which has a narrow legal meaning. If they were riots within the meaning of the act then the police forces would be liable for compensation for damaged property and the insurance companies would have a recourse for recovery. The critical points are whether there were more than 12 people gathered together and whether they had a common purpose. The common purpose argument look decidedly weak in this case

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:08   The summer riots Vol 4 - movilogo

If jails are full, then put 2 inmates in a cell. Then continue to add more until new jails are made. Oh yes, change the laws so that criminals can't be called humans. So human rights laws won't apply to them. But rest assured it won't happen because politicians are forget it, I better not put swear filters in action

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:09   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

Yup, they like to call it "public disorder" One could claim they do have a common purpose. - Theft? Arson? Anarchy? Depends on the legal definition of "purpose"

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:11   The summer riots Vol 4 - R.P.

Anarchy and common purpose aren't easy bedfellows.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:52   The summer riots Vol 4 - Roger.

>> Anarchy and common purpose aren't easy bedfellows. Don't you mean "Common Purpose" ? THAT thrives on control.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:16   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

12 people going into Phones 4U, for example, have a common purpose and any worthwhile CCTV should be able to provide evidence.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:28   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

Zero, "you do know, of course, we dont have any water cannons in the UK? Where are they coming from then?" Cameron live on the news just now. Water cannon will be available for use by police at 24hrs. notice. Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 11:28

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:32   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> Zero, >> "you do know, of course, we dont have any water cannons in the UK? Where >> are they coming from then?" >> >> Cameron live on the news just now. Water cannon will be available for use by >> police at 24hrs. notice. I though that you guys would be discussing this over a nice cup of Nescafe by now :)       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:35   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

He never replied SS. Had the kettle boiling almost non stop this morning. And no apology for his misunderstanding ;-)

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:41   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

And when did you post that Mr X? sorry I dont hang on your every word you know so give me a chance! I wonder where he thinks he is getting them from? The police havent got any, nor have the Army. No-one trained in their use, not approved for use, will require emergency powers. Brave words, cant deliver.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:55   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

It was your quote. One of these so called ghost machines used to regularly pass my house for whatever reason. So I don't know where you think there are none available in this country. WE make the things. Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 11:56

New Wed 10 Aug 11 12:14   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

They are in Northern Ireland and ready for use as we speak! If anybody has the round objects to authorize their use of course! www.ajc.com/business/cameron-uk-wont-let-1093195.html Last edited by: Meldrew on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 12:15

New Wed 10 Aug 11 12:34   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

He aint getting the PSNI water cannon, he may think he is but he aint. He hasn't got the pwer over there to get them out. Not in 24 hours. Stormont controls the PSNI, not the UK gov. He would need to dissolve that first,.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 12:49   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

I do not know to whom they belong but they are held in NI and could be used in UK if parliament decided to authorise their use. "In the case of the UK there are only 6 water cannon, all held by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, their use on the British mainland would require the authorisation of Parliament." Wiki Held, not owned Last edited by: Meldrew on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 12:51

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:22   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

Looks like "End Of"!

New Wed 10 Aug 11 19:06   The summer riots Vol 4 - Meldrew

"Water cannons from Northern Ireland are on stand-by to be sent to England at 24 hours notice, Prime Minister David Cameron has said."

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:27   The summer riots Vol 4 - Old Navy

>> I do not know to whom they belong but they are held in NI and >> could be used in UK if parliament decided to authorise their use. >> As a senior plod said on TV this morning, water cannon are only of use against static mobs which are in danger of breaking through police lines. They are useless against fast moving groups of people.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:38   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mike Hannon

Is Rollestone Camp on Salisbury Plain being used at the moment? That's the bleakest place I know. Has anyone mentioned the standard French solution yet? Gaz lachrymogene - tear gas to us. Always seems to work over here. I guess that would hurt the media army and the spectators though.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:35   The summer riots Vol 4 - Old Navy

I have used a Green Goddess as a water cannon, high pressure cold water on a winters night soon discourages a bunch of drunks. Amazing what you could do, and how a hose could slip in the days before human rights were invented. Oops, someone sold all the Goddeses.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:38   The summer riots Vol 4 - Mr. Ecs

ON, Saw a GG parked up along the A40, Greenford on Sunday. Someones got one.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:41   The summer riots Vol 4 - zippy

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon. If the teachers are at it.... ffs!

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:44   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> 1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared >> in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty >> to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon. >> >> If the teachers are at it.... ffs! Just like the kids, the teachers also have too much time on their hands. Idle hands and all that. If you give teachers 8 weeks holiday, then this is bound to happen. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 11:44

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:54   The summer riots Vol 4 - teabelly

>> Just like the kids, the teachers also have too much time on their hands. Idle >> hands and all that. If you give teachers 8 weeks holiday, then this is bound >> to happen. >> If she really is a teacher then she should be sacked immediately. Shouldn't be involved with young people with a disgraceful attitude like that. No unemployment benefit for her either until she's paid for what she stole and the damage she's caused. Same goes for the rest of them. Pay for what you stole and damaged. If it takes a lifetime, tough. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 12:48

New Wed 10 Aug 11 12:01   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> If she really is a teacher then she should be sacked immediately. Shouldn't be involved >> with young people with a disgraceful attitude like that. No unemployment benefit for her either >> until she's paid for what she stole and the damage she's caused. >> >> Same goes for the rest of them. Pay for what you stole and damaged. If >> it takes a lifetime, tough. I wouldn't be surprised to see some hefty prison sentences getting doled out, in an attempt to send a strong message.       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:14   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> I wouldn't be surprised to see some hefty prison sentences getting doled out, in an >> attempt to send a strong message. Teacher's case mentioned here. tinyurl.com/3s8u9n8 Seems that magistrates are working through the night to process them, and sending the cases to crown court for sentencing.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:18   The summer riots Vol 4 - Alanovich

>> Teacher's case mentioned here. Doesn't say he's a teacher.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:23   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> >> Teacher's case mentioned here. >> >> Doesn't say he's a teacher. Oh yeah, primary school worker. Good work Alanovic.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:36   The summer riots Vol 4 - RattleandSmoke

He is not a teacher as already commented. Could be anything really.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:25   The summer riots Vol 4 - R.P.

RICHER SOUNDS !!!! Chepskate, some sort of cut price looting !

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:38   The summer riots Vol 4 - zippy

>>>RICHER SOUNDS !!!! Chepskate, some sort of cut price looting ! Some good gear at good prices can be found in Richer Sounds

New Wed 10 Aug 11 12:56   The summer riots Vol 4 - madf

>> 1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Courttells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared >> in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty >> to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon. >> >> If the teachers are at it.... ffs! >> >> >> Protesting about the cuts eh? Moronic if politicians use that argument... Gives the Government a weapon to shoot the argument down...

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:47   The summer riots Vol 4 - Old Navy

>> ON, >> >> Saw a GG parked up along the A40, Greenford on Sunday. Someones got one. >> There are a few around, I saw one recently, can't remember where, other than Central Scotland.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:01   The summer riots Vol 4 - Cliff Pope

>> >> The critical points are whether there were more than 12 people gathered together and whether >> they had a common purpose. The common purpose argument look decidedly weak in this case >> Doesn't the use of phones to co-ordinate action tend to suggest a common purpose?

New Wed 10 Aug 11 11:40   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> >>>Three killed. >> >> I suppose thats why the police disperse the law-abiding and leave the rioters alone. Yes, I suppose it is. It's fine in theory that a show of force by locals will deter looting, especially if they greatly outnumber the looters (although really it will just displace the looting). The downside is that it could encourage small numbers of people, or even individuals, to carry out violence against them. As has been said before, the primary concern of the police has to be preventing death and serious injury, preventing looting and criminal damage is a much lower priority.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:25   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

>> I suppose thats why the police disperse the law-abiding and leave the rioters alone. In scenes like those of the past four or five days, the police need to disperse everyone. Water cannon are cumbersome and highly visible. When used, they are indiscriminate and the water jets are powerful enough to cause injury, as are rubber bullets which are supposed to be fired at the ground to send them bouncing and tumbling in all directions, but sometimes inevitably hit people directly and cause injury. Tear gas is more portable, unlikely to cause serious injury and very effective at causing curious onlookers and innocent folk going about their business to run away fast. Anyone who remained visible would then be a snatch target. Of course the Met would have to tighten up its leadership and tactics a bit first. I don't think tear gas has ever been used in mainland Britain. Perhaps politicians fear that it is a bit on the paramilitary side, and of course many would complain bitterly were it to be used. But the spectacle these misguided, empty-headed, fatherless children have been making of us is well worth bringing to an end if you ask me. Hundreds are now waiting their turns to appear in court. More who have been photographed will be arrested later. I haven't been looking at the TV much being very busy, but I did for a while last night and my strong impression was that this was all slowing down and will soon peter out. Yobbos have a low boredom threshold, unsurprisingly as their lives and interests are so extremely boring. One thing that worries me now is the possibility that the police will use the Notting Hill Carnival as a practice ground for crowd control tactics, as they have in the past with dire results. Their role there is to be benignly present in case anyone needs them - undercover as well of course, no problem - and absolutely not to create dangerous situations by causing logjams and crowd surges with officious and stupid interference with the flow of people. Over the years I have seen both extremes of police behaviour there. I've seen local residents and carnival visitors applauding the police for chasing muggers and steamers, and I've seen them applauding missile-throwing youths on other occasions when the police have been winding everyone up. This is essentially a matter of strategy, and hands-on leadership on the street. Recent remote control efforts with the front-line fuzz being ordered about by some twozzer in a distant control room don't really work for anything, except perhaps long standoffs, embassy sieges, that sort of thing.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 13:35   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

I am surprised and disgusted by the tendency of some here to see any reference to the social and economic background of these moronic events as a justification or 'apology' for the rioters. As well as being a rather silly misunderstanding, it suggests a sort of pre-fascist mindset, just begging for some ghastly leader to make the exclusion from decent society of unemployed black youths official government policy. It is deplorable.       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:17   The summer riots Vol 4 - Stuu

I dont think social or economic factors have anything to do with bad behaviour, they dont have a thing to do with it - plenty of high profile rich kids have been in court for similar incidents in the last few years. There have been plenty of public figures trying to use the backgrounds of these people as some kind of excuse, not that they can possibly actually know given few of them have even been identified. I dont know about here, but public figures have certainly been using it in the way described.       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:28   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> I dont think social or economic factors have anything to do with bad behaviour, they >> dont have a thing to do with it - plenty of high profile rich kids >> have been in court for similar incidents in the last few years. I think that is too sweeping a statement FoR. Certainly you can't explain everything with a single factor. For example, poverty might push some to steal, but many poor people don't steal and some rich ones do. But to suggest, for example, that poverty isn't a factor in some thefts would, I think, be going too far. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 14:30       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:31   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

Stu, that's rubbish. 'High profile rich kids' get drunk or stoned or both and engage in hooliganism. They don't loot and set things on fire. Nor is trying to understand the genesis of this sort of rubbish in any way an attempt to excuse it. There are people - not you I'm sure - who simply don't get a measured discourse. They only understand narrow and angry. And they aren't just tiresome and boring, they are objectively dangerous and mischievous, whether they mean to be or not.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:50   The summer riots Vol 4 - Stuu

I find it extremely offensive the suggestion that being poor is any reason for criminality. Several of my fathers siblings live in council houses on dive estates, many of my cousins do aswell. They arent setting stuff on fire because they are poorer than most, they are posting anti-riot messages on Facebook like many otheres are, they are just as appalled as the chattering middle-classes who seek to over analyse why people do bad things, especially if, quite by accident, it turns out its a socio-economic group that doesnt include them. Funny that. Right and wrong isnt exclusive to you or anyone else and any time you make some vile attempt to put labels of any socio-economic/ethnic group, you are throwing them all in together.       3

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:59   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

>> Stu, that's rubbish. 'High profile rich kids' get drunk or stoned or both and engage >> in hooliganism. They don't loot and set things on fire. They can, do and have. Set fire to things that is. They tend not to loot.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 14:57   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

There are NO economic or social reasons for the current rioting and looting - end of. Its opportunity, the buzz and the time honoured chance for the young to push boundaries, have a go at authority, run with a gang, have a bit of power. It was ever thus. Anyone claims different and they are trying to be seen as an intellectual who "understands" the problem. They dont, they just dont remember their own childhood, or have never had the need urge or balls to shed an inhibitive society shackle. In one form I have been there. I know the why. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 14:57       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:09   The summer riots Vol 4 - -

This fellow talks common sense, a sight more than some of the proliferate posters here ever will, well worth a read. thethinkingpoliceman.blogspot.com/ Oh and do stop making excuses for them for goodness sake. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 15:10       3

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:13   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> Oh and do stop making excuses for them for goodness sake. That's the problem! The idea that ever trying to discuss the causes = trying to make excuses for criminals.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:20   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

>> Oh and do stop making excuses for them for goodness sake. NO ONE IS FOR GOD'S SAKE! But I do like the thinking policeman's blog GB, in places anyway. Makes several of my own points indeed.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:22   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> >> Oh and do stop making excuses for them for goodness sake. >> >> NO ONE IS FOR GOD'S SAKE! We should be careful not to try to debate the causes of World War II, or we'll be labelled Nazi sympathisers...

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:45   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

>> Oh and do stop making excuses for them for goodness sake. No-one is, I have never even hinted at it. . But i do know about it. More so than those who have never indulged in the subject on a practical level, more so than those, from the outraged birch them right wing to the poor dears such a tough life liberals. So don't give me your "I am whiter than white" sense. You know nothing of it. The old bill don't either IF they did they wouldn't have lost control and not gained control for three days. You know the real catalyst? There has been a very bad failure of policing here. Right from the off after the shooting. From intelligence, to support, manpower, logistics, tactical command, leadership and political interference. Frankly It has been pathetic. I feel sorry for the copper on the street behind the shield having to put up with the crap that's coming at them from both sides. Last edited by: Webmaster on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 09:16       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:13   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

>> You know the real catalyst? There has been a very bad failure of policing here. Right from the off after the shooting. From intelligence, to support, manpower, logistics, tactical command, leadership and political interference. Frankly It has been pathetic. I feel sorry for the copper on the street behind the shield having to put up with the crap that's coming at them from both sides. Indeed Zeddo. Someone may accuse you of being a rioters' apologist in a minute though. Last edited by: Webmaster on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 09:16

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:11   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> There are NO economic or social reasons for the current rioting and looting - end >> of. >> >> Its opportunity, the buzz and the time honoured chance for the young to push boundaries, >> have a go at authority, run with a gang, have a bit of power. Yes, a feeling of power is a large part of it I believe. But there are social factors underlying that need for power and a normal lack of power, and also underlying the lack of fear of consequences, and various other things. If there are no social reasons at play here, then why is the mix of looters not exactly the same as broader society?       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:22   The summer riots Vol 4 - Alanovich

>> why is the mix of >> looters not exactly the same as broader society? It is, in Tottenham. If there were lootings in Henley-on-Thames, I expect the make up of the looters there would be reflective of that town's broader society.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:36   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> >> why is the mix of >> >> looters not exactly the same as broader society? >> >> It is, in Tottenham. If there were lootings in Henley-on-Thames, I expect the make up >> of the looters there would be reflective of that town's broader society. Right so, even in Tottenham, you think that a child with 8 GCSEs is as likely to be a looter as one with no qualifications, and you think that a child for a household with a income over 50K is as likely to be a looter as one where everyone is on the dole and the father is in prison, do you? Tottenham aside, there are now riots in, for example, the centre of Manchester. Why are university graduates under-represented, do you think? And, if socio-economic factors aren't at play, quite why aren't there riots in Henley-On-Thames?       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:47   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

>> >> Tottenham aside, there are now riots in, for example, the centre of Manchester. Why are >> university graduates under-represented, do you think? Who said they are? I bet graduates are represented in proportion.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:58   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> >> Tottenham aside, there are now riots in, for example, the centre of Manchester. Why >> are >> >> university graduates under-represented, do you think? >> >> Who said they are? I bet graduates are represented in proportion. I bet you they aren't. Do you think that 25 year old medical students and 25 years olds with no qualifications are represented in proportion? How about 30 year old doctors and 30 year olds that have never been employed? EDIT: Various issues here. Including much power they have in their day to day life, and how much they have to risk getting caught. Last edited by: SteelSpark on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 16:00       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:07   The summer riots Vol 4 - Alanovich

I grew up close to Eton College, Steely, and went to a local Comprehensive school. The Eton boys were far more notorious for causing damage in the town and rampaging through the streets in drunken mobs. They even smashed up and looted a church in Eton High Street once during my teenage years. I'm the same age as David Cameron and Gideon Osborne, I expect they remember the incident. My driving instructor used to take me through Eton and would instruct me to run over as many as I could. Obviously, I didn't.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:16   The summer riots Vol 4 - SteelSpark

>> I grew up close to Eton College, Steely, and went to a local Comprehensive school. >> The Eton boys were far more notorious for causing damage in the town and rampaging >> through the streets in drunken mobs. They even smashed up and looted a church in >> Eton High Street once during my teenage years. Oh yeah, I'm not suggesting that the wealthy and educated can't get involved in wrongdoing. I just have a feeling that Eton College and the like are probably under-represented in the magistrates courts today. Perhaps not unrepresented, but likely under-represented.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:15   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

>> In one form I have been there. I know the why. We've all been there Zero. But we aren't all the same. We haven't all had the same role models. We haven't all been given the same attention by our parents and families. We haven't all been let down by an education system sabotaged by successive governments. We haven't all been victims of the subtle but pervasive racism of our society. I haven't once suggested that poverty or social deprivation is a 'reason' for rioting and looting. Nor has anyone else with an ounce of sense. Stu's last post, incoherent with rage apparently, seems to be suggesting that any attempt to attribute rioting to anything but the irredeemable badness of the rioters is middle-class over-analysis. That is simply fatuous. But I won't go on arguing about it because those who will not see are, well, blind actually.       2

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:12   The summer riots Vol 4 - Zero

>> We've all been there Zero. But we aren't all the same. We haven't all had >> the same role models. We haven't all been given the same attention by our parents >> and families. Role models do come into it. but its not parents. How many times have you said that teens will do the exact opposite of what parents say? And I. They have role models ok, guys who have made a pot of money by illegal means. Mostly because they haven't been caught or died too young in a drug war,

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:31   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

>> They have role models ok, But those role models aren't well-meaning fathers whose behaviour and example underlie temporary trivia like teenage rebellion, and outlast them. There are historical reasons for that, going back a long way. But I have no intention of mentioning those here. They won't be believed or understood. And I am a bit tired of being called names by people who don't understand stuff.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:14   The summer riots Vol 4 - Pat

Ac, I'm sure you live in a bubble where the world is different to what everyone else sees:) Either that, or you're still the 'misunderstood' teenager who's always right and the whole wide world is wrong! Pat       12

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:19   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

Neither Pat. And you're talking rubbish in the red light thread too. The people who get in your way are those 'respectable' mimsers, not safe intelligent drivers who get on with it. Honestly...

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:24   The summer riots Vol 4 - Old Navy

Stop digging AC, Pat has driven more miles than you ever will. She also trains HGV drivers, I know who I would prefer for advice.       11

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:32   The summer riots Vol 4 - Pat

That's the problem AC, you always think every one else is wrong and if they don't agree then they're idiots! I'd quite like to live in that world too sometimes, but infortunately I have to have a broader outlook and embrace others views too. Pat       5

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:37   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

Pat, stop inventing stuff. I don't think 'everyone else is wrong', nor do I necessarily think they are idiots even when I think they're wrong. For example, I don't think you're an idiot, but I think you are wrong. Only about two things - me and red lights - at the moment, but I have no doubt at all that there are many others. You're going to tell me I don't think you have a right to your opinion next. I can feel it coming. Go on, I'm used to it. I won't mind. :o}

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:33   The summer riots Vol 4 - Armel Coussine

She's still talking rubbish though. Not that you would know or care.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:16   The summer riots Vol 4 - zookeeper

if ones car gets torched can you claim on the insurance? or do you have to sue the police for failure to protect peoples property is it officially a riot situation or does the police have to read the riot act out? the insurance companies would rather go to hell and back rather than pay out wouldnt they?

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:31   The summer riots Vol 4 - R.P.

Riot Act was repealed in the 70s...!

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:33   Police reputation - BobbyG

I think that it is at times like this that events like the Brazilian with the rucksack, the newspaper seller at the G8 protests will really hinder the police. And now maybe this shooting of the guy in the taxi. Whereas I would always be of the attitude of the police can be trusted, send them in heavy handed to clear these rioters etc, there is now factual evidence that at times, they do get it wrong, and horribly wrong at that. And lawyers / press etc know this and will focus on it. If the police went in heavy handed with batons I bet the cameramen would be told to specifically try and get eveidence of police brutality. And that is what 99% of the good police guys will be up against. When we go to war in foreign countries, we get things wrong but there is almost an acceptance that there may be civiian deaths, or there may be friendly fire deaths but these are an "acceptable" hazard of the mission. I don't think the same would apply on the streets of London or wherever.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:43   Police reputation - zippy

>>>I don't think the same would apply on the streets of London or wherever Or Manchester..... tinyurl.com/438m4hj Most police are fine. Like elsewhere there are some that are not.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:51   Police reputation - Old Navy

And these little darlings were riding their bikes home from the youth club were they. I haven't been beaten up by the police, could that be because I was not looting or in the area. Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 15:53

New Wed 10 Aug 11 15:57   Police reputation - Armel Coussine

That's a good post BobbyG. You are certainly right to point to the mischievous role quite often played by the media. Trouble is, either you have free media or you don't. And believe me, if that's the choice what you want are free media. But the problem with them is that they are 'capitalist' media: driven primarily by the urge to sell more copies or get more viewers or listeners, for essentially financial reasons. Civil order and 'the right message' are sacrificed as a rule for circulation. Unlike you I think society would accept a bit of 'collateral damage' by police suppressing destructive riots. In the case of the G8 victim though there is photographic evidence of very nasty gratuitous violence by one officer. In both the shooting cases the real problem is the farrago of lying bull excrement that immediately floods out of Old Bill central when someone is shot. I simply don't understand what would be wrong with a careful truthful account, but what do I know? Perhaps it's a matter of pride to Scotland Yard and the home office, to leave the hoi polloi guessing, and therefore worried and suspicious, even years after the event.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:05   Police reputation - Old Navy

If the police rules of engagement were published (I assume they aren't) at least the people who want to take on armed police would know the consequences. Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 16:05       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:10   Police reputation - SteelSpark

>> If the police rules of engagement were published (I assume they aren't) at least the >> people who want to take on armed police would know the consequences. I suppose they might be published somewhere. Mind you, if I took on armed police, I wouldn't need a copy of the rules to know the consequences, the submachine guns kinda give it away...       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:20   Police reputation - Old Navy

>> Mind you, if I took on armed police, I wouldn't need a copy of the >> rules to know the consequences, the submachine guns kinda give it away... >> There are far more plain clothed armed police with concealed guns than those with sub machine guns. When I carried out armed duties I was under Ministry of Defence Police rules of engagement, I would think most police use similar ones. I have seen it reported that a gun was found in the taxi the guy was shot in, that could place the blame away from the police. As Joe public does not know the rules it will be seen as a whitewash.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 16:08   Police reputation - Zero

And I have to say, that if was one of the youths involved last night I would be looking at carnival with glee, A chance to create mayhem and get some kicks. And I were the home sec, I would have carnival banned this year. Pity and all that but you cant afford the fact you may loose control again. Its happened far too many times recently.       3

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:26   Police reputation - Armel Coussine

Zero you are wrong. You really are. You just don't know what you're talking about.       1

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:39   Police reputation - Zero

I hope I am proved wrong, but do you KNOW the gangs are not going to take advantage? You dont. If I were home sec I would ban it If it goes ahead trouble free, I invite you to tell me you told me so. If not expect my retribution. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 17:42       3

New Wed 10 Aug 11 17:55   Police reputation - Armel Coussine

It could happen that there will be trouble at carnival. As you say, there often has been. But my guess is that 'gangs' (such as they are) actually like carnival. They may want to rob people there, but they probably don't want to ruin the whole thing. If carnival were to be banned though, they would turn up anyway in stroppy mood, believe me. So would a lot of the carnival people and a lot of visitors. That could get nasty. In my experience, the worst trouble has always been triggered by officious police behaviour, but there was a year when 'steaming' first appeared. That was one of the occasions when the police were trying to do the right thing, and being applauded for it.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:10   Police reputation - madf

"In my experience, the worst trouble has always been triggered by officious police behaviour, but there was a year when 'steaming' first appeared. " Always? So you are saying the riots now are the fault of the police? I don't believe you mean that but that is what you are saying...       3

New Wed 10 Aug 11 18:11   Police reputation - Armel Coussine

No madf, I'm not saying that. I was conversing with Zero about Notting Hill Carnival - that alone.

New Wed 10 Aug 11 19:07   Police reputation - Armel Coussine

I see that the small yapping dogs barking at my heels are getting loads of positive gongs. Who are these gangs of mischief-makers egging the pooches on? Could they be unemployed and of mixed race, but too chicken to go out and join their colleagues picking over the ruins? It wouldn't surprise me in the least. If I had a urine cannon I would let them have it, if of course they had the gonads to reveal themselves.