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Watching SKY News there appears to be a local reply to the shooting of a mixed race local man by the MPS.
There is no excuse for this behaviour. There is never any rioting following a black on black shooting so why the anger all of a sudden.
In my opinion the incident of the shooting is being used as an excuse to cause arson, loot and have a ruck with the police. The sooner they deal with this the better. Treating certain areas of the population with kid gloves does nothing for race relations. It makes things worse.
The government and the MPS should not tolerate this behaviour from any section of London and should go in hard and make sure this does not spread. And not allowing this idiots to get away with it. It will be only a matter of time before a police officer or firefighter is killed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 9 Aug 11 at 00:18
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>> The government and the MPS should not tolerate this behaviour from any section of London
>> and should go in hard and make sure this does not spread.
Concur.
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A police officer was killed in Tottenham 26 years ago and there was a riot, triggered by the police reaction, so not a lot has changed. Policeman killed, member of the public killed = a riot. It is caused by disaffected young men looking for an excuse to cause criminal damage and "Going in Hard" isn't going to stop it. What is needed is massive and lasting social change and there is neither the will nor the funding to achieve it.
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Just watching the news now this has happened before in London.
Lasting social change,I doubt it politicians are on holiday at the moment.
Financial collapse rioting and the cuts haven't start to bite yet.
I want to be wrong but there is more trouble to come.
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Since it doesn't seem to need much to spark off a riot in London (price of theatre tickets in 1870!) perhaps we shouldn't be too worried.
After all, us rural types have our bloodsports, why should we deny them theirs? ;-)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots_in_London
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I bet William With the Long Beard was at the heart of yesterday's disturbances too. Nothing but a trouble maker that chap.
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>>What is needed is massive and lasting social change
What sort of massive and lasting social change? What have you in mind, and how can it be brought about?
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Highly concentrated urban environment = periodic riots.
Always been the case, not just here. Seem to recall my Grandfather got mixed up in the cable street one.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 7 Aug 11 at 10:06
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Whatever it takes to stop people carrying knives and guns and petrol bombs and using them would be a good start. We can all see that something is badly wrong but until we know what the question is there are no answers.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 7 Aug 11 at 10:10
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Martial law, people shot on suspicion, concentration camps.
That's what it takes.
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'Going in hard' won't do much good. When those things start happening there are always lots of recruits to keep the police outnumbered and surrounded. Word gets around fast, these days by mobile. The more the merrier, is the feeling, and when something like that lasts more than a few hours reinforcements often turn up from other parts of town to join in the fun.
I think Meldrew has it the wrong way round about the last big Tottenham riots. They started over the accidental police shooting of someone during a raid or something like that - the arrest of someone's mother perhaps. PC Blakelock was lynched to death in subsequent rioting.
I don't know about Tottenham, but certainly in the second Brixton riots, which I covered for a French paper, the bulk of rioters were black but there were many white youths involved. In fact I watched a small group of whites in their mid-twenties robbing a jeweller's shop surrounded by, without interference, a mob of rioting black teenagers. The teenagers were just rioting, but those white boys had a practical opportunist agenda.
A tip: when you are present at one of these parties, don't stand near any police lines. They have protective equipment and you haven't. Bricks and bottles are dangerous missiles that can maim or kill.
I wonder which side Zero's dad was on during the Cable Street riots? They opposed Jews/leftists and fascists I believe. But that was before my time.
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The full facts are not known yet. Right now it seems that both sides were armed but who fired first?
"Two shots were fired by an officer and it is believed that one shot was discharged from an illegal firearm inside the car.
The IPCC said the dead man had lived in the local area and his family had been informed.
Friends of the dead man told BBC London that Mr Duggan, who was also known as Starrish Mark, had become "increasingly paranoid" after his cousin Kelvin Easton was stabbed to death outside La Boheme nightclub in Mile End on 27 March." BBC News 5th August 2043hrs
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 7 Aug 11 at 11:08
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If you are arguing with me, M, I mentioned the Tottenham riots a couple of decades back that included the murder of PC Blakelock. I didn't say anything about the new lot.
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No I am not. I am aware that a policeman was killed 26 years ago and I mentioned it at 0812. The thread started with a discussion of recents and what to do about them. I don't do argument, I do discussion, it is less confrontational and keeps the Mods happy.
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>> I don't do argument, I do discussion,
Ow! Yaroo!
That must be why you edited out your original lead sentence: 'I think not'.
And I agree with you of course Meldrew. Discussion is the point. But some people will argue.
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...The full facts are not known yet. Right now it seems that both sides were armed but who fired first?...
The chain of events seems to be the police stopped the man in a minicab.
He refused to co-operate, shot the policeman, then another policeman shot him.
One of the things which bothers me is there must be a temptation for the police to turn a blind eye to estate gangsters.
Let the criminals get on with it, rather than risk the fallout of inquiries, riots and possible official action against the officers concerned.
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>> The full facts are not known yet. Right now it seems that both sides
>> were armed but who fired first?
It shouldn't really matter, although it obviously does to many.
Armed police are allowed to carry guns, and members of the public aren't. If you do carry an illegal firearm, then it is quite possible that you are going to end up getting shot by the police, whether you discharge your's first or not.
It would be possible to paint a scene where gun toting police opened fire on a scared citizen, who just happened to be armed, and who managed to then draw his weapon and get off one shot in return, before dying a hero's death.
Of course the other possible scene is that he drew his weapon, and then got shot (whether he fired first, or second).
It very much matters how the police conducted themselves, but it is not the case that you get first shot, before they can fire back.
The riots are unfortunate, more because they paint, in the eyes of many, a picture of a local population that still assumes that the police are in the wrong, when they have been faced with an armed criminal.
Of course, the rioters are only a small number (and many perhap not even local), but the damage to the population's image is done.
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>> but the damage to the population's image is done.
You mean the population's tabloid newspaper image as a disciplined, well-behaved, cultured group of well-meaning young people of Caribbean descent doing their best to earn an honest crust and help their neighbours in these difficult times? Is that what has been damaged by this rioting SS?
The irresponsible fools! Throwing away their cosy relationship with their neighbours and the powers that be for no good reason! Well, they deserve everything they get after that, eh? They might even find out that London isn't heaven after all.
Tchah!
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>> Tchah!
Bless you.
Anyway, you know that there is an issue of cumulative damage. Just another incident for those with an agenda to point to, and the tabloid press to scream about. And another cycle begins.
I suppose it's true that once you have been tarred with a certain brush, it might not seem like there is any point trying to paint yourself in a better light, but that is a pretty self destructive cycle.
Sometimes if we have been unfairly portrayed we have to bend over backwards to mend that, and often pride gets in the way of doing that.
The area could do with some kind of "pro-police/anti-crime" march, but I doubt that will happen. It won't do much on its own, but cumulative good press can be as powerful as cumulative bad press.
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>> suppose it's true that once you have been tarred with a certain brush, it might not seem like there is any point trying to paint yourself in a better light, but that is a pretty self destructive cycle.
Heh heh... I knew you understood really SS.
It's tragic really, this incurable barrel-of-crabs aspect of society. In totalitarian tyrannies the stupidity is officially embodied in the state ideology. In a relatively free, relatively democratic society like ours it is delegated to citizen groups and spread around where it crops up spontaneously in riots or other manifestations of local or general mass hysteria.
It's still stupidity though. Sad really.
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>> The area could do with some kind of "pro-police/anti-crime" march, but I doubt that will
>> happen.
Anyone contemplating such a thing would do well to update their last will and testament first, you wouldn't get me or anyone with an ounce of common anywhere near the place.
Here we go again, the good old tax and ratepayer will have to dig a bit deeper and better not complain or else.
Nothing changes, i suppose we have a summer of city strife to look forward to again.
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>> >> The area could do with some kind of "pro-police/anti-crime" march, but I doubt that
>> will
>> >> happen.
>>
>> Anyone contemplating such a thing would do well to update their last will and testament
>> first, you wouldn't get me or anyone with an ounce of common anywhere near the
>> place.
It would, naturally, have to be the local population, making a point that they support the police and condemn those gangs (and individuals) that are blighting their estates.
A small gesture perhaps.
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>> I wonder which side Zero's dad was on during the Cable Street riots? They opposed
>> Jews/leftists and fascists I believe. But that was before my time.
Grandfather!
Being a docker he was probably a bit commy but I don't think he knew or cared about the cause. The Peelers turned up heavy, there was agro, he was local ( and knowing him a bit fuelled up on booze) so he waded in.
And I don't doubt yesterdays agro was much the same. Things don't change that much in cities.
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>> Grandfather!
Sorry Zeddo, of course, of course.
A well-oiled fellow traveller eh? Just as I would have hoped. One thing you don't reek of is far-right culture I have to say.
But families are funny organisms and can contain a bit of this as well as a bit of that.
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"They started over the accidental police shooting of someone during a raid or something like that - the arrest of someone's mother perhaps. PC Blakelock was lynched to death in subsequent rioting."
AC,
The events of that disturbance were dominated by two deaths. The first was that of Cynthia Jarrett, an African-Caribbean woman who died the previous day from a stroke during a police search of her home. It was one of the main triggers of the riot in a context where tension between local black youth and the largely white Metropolitan Police was already high due to a combination of local issues and the aftermath of another riot which had occurred in the Brixton area of London the previous week following the shooting of another black woman during another police search. The second death connected with the first Tottenham riot was that of PC Keith Blakelock, the first police officer since 1833 to be killed in a riot in Britain. He wasn't lynched, but hacked to death.
Going in hard is my reaction to all the standing around by officers while groups of people hurled bricks, petrol bombs and looted while high numbers of police flooded the area and looked on.
It is time to drop the softly softly approach of a liberal police service in London and adopt techniques developed abroad. It has been over two decades and more than enough time for the police service to develop a proper civil disturbance strategy.
The Garda in Eire. Their approach is to issue a timed warning to clear a particular street or location. Then after the given time has expired, a charge is made and anyone stupid enough to stand up to the police is batoned and/or arrested.
As has been mentioned, it is about time tear gas was used along with water cannon. Steps have to be made to quell hooligan behaviour on this scale that endangers emergency personnel and public alike.
Why can't the local populus accept the stopping of an armed person black or white and accept the consequences when they will not apparently yeild. As I said, in my opinion this behaviour has nothing to do with youth problems or the shooting itself. It was purely taken as a good excuse for a bit of fun. Which needs nipping in the bud in a much harder fashion.
I keep hearing the relations with the police and the community in that area have been strained for some time and which has lead to the disturbances last night. Maybe it has to do with the gang culture and the use of knives that the MPS is trying to crack down on. Well if the gangs in that area are predominantly black, then what does that community expect. You cannot object to the police one minute and then crib about black on black shootings and stabbings. Let the MPS do the job we the majority of Londoners want and stop using cracking down on real crime as an excuse because of a colour.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Sun 7 Aug 11 at 18:12
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>> Well if the gangs in that area are predominantly black, then what does that community expect. You cannot object to the police one minute and then crib about black on black shootings and stabbings. Let the MPS do the job we the majority of Londoners want and stop using cracking down on real crime as an excuse because of a colour.
All commonsense Mr X (is it you?), and thanks for reminding me of Cynthia Jarrett and her heart attack during a raid on her home. I said it was something like that. Although the distinction you purport to draw between being attacked by a lot of people, including one wielding a sword, and being lynched, strikes me as idiotic.
There's a lot to be said about all this, a lot, but I'm not going to say any of it now. Suffice it to say that this is not a simple matter in social or simple security terms, whatever one may wish.
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>> this is not a simple matter in social or simple security terms, whatever one may wish.
Our coppers aren't supposed to be horrible like French or Spanish ones. They are supposed to be nice. We know they sometimes aren't, but when something really bad happens we give them what for. And rightly so, on one level.
Water cannon and 'robber billets' as they call them in Ulster can injure or kill people. No onee will mind if some obviously bad rioter gets his just deserts, but one dead teenager looks exactly like another. The little beast is someone's son, geddit? And if, as can easily happen, an innocent bystander is hit in the temple with a heavy lump of plastic fired from a shotgun or slammed violently against something jagged by a high-pressure stream of water, the wailing and gnashing of teeth know no bounds. Geddit? Anyway that's what worries the politicians, and the coppers too one imagines.
There are always innocent bystanders wandering about in the middles of riots, shaking their heads in disbelief and distaste. Rioters, often skilled at certain urban guerilla tactics which are easily learned, exploit their presence systematically. An impressive, spine-chilling spectacle actually.
Then there's plod. I have several times watched the police starting trouble over periods of hours at the Notting Hill Carnival. I'm not an expert on that sort of thing but I am a seasoned observer, and I am as certain as I can be that the police can start and have started quite serious crowd trouble by the simple expedient of messing about with the crowd. I've also seen them behaving impeccably, which consists of being benignly present but doing nothing.
I don't blame ordinary frontline coppers who usually do what they are told. But there are some extremely malevolent or staggeringly stupid elements in the middle and upper reaches of the Met. I've seen their work and it is repulsive, and criminal actually...
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>> Our coppers aren't supposed to be horrible like French or Spanish ones. They are supposed
>> to be nice. We know they sometimes aren't, but when something really bad happens we
>> give them what for. And rightly so, on one level.
>>
No. All coppers in all countries are there to uphold the law - that's why I support them.
>> if, as can easily happen, an innocent bystander is hit in the temple with a
>> heavy lump of plastic fired from a shotgun or slammed violently against something jagged by
>> a high-pressure stream of water, the wailing and gnashing of teeth know no bounds. Geddit?
So, make it clear that "innocent bystanders" can do their bit to help the police by getting out of an area where rioting is taking place - not standing there gawping at it.
Plus, if an electrical shop has been broken into, then anyone, ANYONE who is inside it is a potential target for water or a rubber bullet.
Armel, whilst I share your view that there is a big picture here about racism and poverty, you are offering no solutions apart from "There's nothing we can do so let them get away with it".
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First get the mayor back into London,Ken Livingstone would have been back by now.
Boris is a comedian, mayor of London one off the largest citys in the world and he can't be bothered to get back.
Solutions you have got to give people hope and stop cutting the voluntary and charity sections.
What they where going to save is wasted on damage caused to shops and buildings.People have to be rehoused.
Would this rioting being allowed to carry on in the posh areas of London.
Knightsbridge Chelsea etc.I wonder..
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>> you are offering no solutions apart from "There's nothing we can do so let them get away with it".
Actually Londoner I didn't suggest any solution to anything. Nor did I say or imply that there was nothing to be done, or that 'they' should be allowed to 'get away with it'.
What I did was comment on water cannon and rubber bullets which some posters seem to think would sort everything out quickly, on the nature of the London riots I have witnessed, and on what I regard as very poor middle management here and there in the police service, notably in crowd management at large events.
I didn't offer any sort of solution. I leave that to wiser heads like Mr X and one or two others who think getting tough is the answer.
I see that Dutchie thinks that clown Ken Livingstone would sort things out. Really!
I don't think people who have entered a burgled shop in a riot can possibly count as innocent bystanders of course. Who but a moron would?
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 11:16
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Hang on A.C.I didn't say Livingstone would sort things out.He would have been in London by now.
Boris is on his worldy travels.
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>>> didn't say Livingstone would sort things out.He would have been in London by now.
Sorry D... I suppose you have to be a bit of a clown to be mayor. Keeps the people amused.
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>> I didn't say Livingstone would sort things out.He would have been in London by now.
So what would be the difference?
Livingstone being there, but doing diddly squat?
or
Boris not being there, and also not doing diddly squat?
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>> Actually Londoner I didn't suggest any solution to anything. Nor did I say or imply
>> that there was nothing to be done, or that 'they' should be allowed to 'get
>> away with it'.
>>
>> I didn't offer any sort of solution. I leave that to wiser heads like Mr
>> X and one or two others who think getting tough is the answer.
>>
OK. So, if you don't think that they should "get away with it" - as you say above - and you don't like any of the suggestions already offered, why don't you grow a pair and actually suggest some of your own ideas?
Or are you too frightened of being on the receiving end? ;-)
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>> grow a pair and actually suggest some of your own ideas?
I have said repeatedly that this matter isn't as simple as people wish. 'Ideas' aren't any use at all, coming from a bystander. If serving police officers and home office officials have any useful 'ideas' one can only hope they are listened to.
But yes, at enormous length and after considerable study, I could come up with a 'draft solution' for these outbreaks of criminality on what appear to be political pretexts. But I haven't the time, no one would understand it and more importantly, no one would listen. So I just can't be bothered.
>> Or are you too frightened of being on the receiving end? ;-)
Yes, absolutely petrified of being called a lily liver or wet liberal or immoral chattering-classes ponce or something of the sort. Always has me in floods of tears that, especially when it comes from an ignorant whippersnapper. I would do anything to avoid such humiliation.
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>> But yes, at enormous length and after considerable study, I could come up with a
>> 'draft solution' for these outbreaks of criminality on what appear to be political pretexts.
Oh go on AC, it is your civic duty. ("Ask not what your country can do for you, . . . " etc.)
>> But I haven't the time,
Yes you do. You have enough time to frequently post on here for our enjoyment! :-)
>> no one would understand it
Yes they would. There are a lot of people in this country as clever as you. Don't judge the country by this forum! ;-)
>> and more importantly, no one would listen
Yes they will. If you can come up with something good, everyone will listen.
And there is a spare plinth in Trafalgar Square that is waiting for a suitable statue to put on it.
>>So I just can't be bothered.
>>
But you can be bothered to criticise everyone else.
>> Yes, absolutely petrified of being called a lily liver or wet liberal or immoral chattering-classes
>> ponce or something of the sort.
>>
You've given the game away. You can be blackmailed. Gives us your plans or we will call you all those horrible names.
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>> But you can be bothered to criticise everyone else.
Hardly ever. Only when pushed beyond endurance.
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>> >> But you can be bothered to criticise everyone else.
>>
>> Hardly ever. Only when pushed beyond endurance.
>>
>>
Then you don't have much endurance!
Typical of a "lily liver or wet liberal or immoral chattering-classes ponce". :-) :-) :-)
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ok, enough trolling please.
Vx.
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>>No one will mind if some obviously bad rioter gets his just deserts, but
>> one dead teenager looks exactly like another. The little beast is someone's son, geddit?
Absolutely right, except that we have to remember that these riots kicked off after a peaceful protest, to "get justice" for an armed criminal who was shot by the police.
Not somebody nicking a iPod mind, a guy carrying a gun, who actually got a shot off at the police.
There is a right to peaceful demonstration of course, but personally I think that the people who started protesting against the shooting, should be ashamed of themselves, and bear a large amount of responsibility for enabling the later rioting.
God only knows what the response would be to the death of said iPod thief. Even more so, for some innocent bystander.
But, surely, you would say, people will give the police a break when they were trying to handle serious disorder, mistakes happen in such circumstances, eh?
Yeah, like the break they gave them when they made mistakes trying to prevent a repeat of the mass slaughter on the Tube.
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>> surely, you would say, people will give the police a break when they were trying to handle serious disorder, mistakes happen in such circumstances, eh?
Yes, I certainly would, having witnessed with my own eyes police behaviour far worse than anything ever seen here, as well as fairly disgraceful comportment by individual officers here.
But I am not a problem to the police. The problem is the mass media, which are not always necessarily interested in doing good or supporting what is right; and of course the population, a byword globally for its deep-seated hypocrisy, not without reason. I am convinced that many of those advocating robust methods would be the first to set up a sentimental keening when something went badly wrong.
Incidentally, according to the Terrorflag which does thank God still have proper reporters, the late alleged villain Duggan may not have fired a weapon, either first or at all. The round dug out of the copper's radio would appear to be standard issue police hollow point 9mm. If the pistol allegedly found at the scene won't fire that ammo, there are going to be some scarlet faces in the Met.
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>> Incidentally, according to the Terrorflag which does thank God still have proper reporters, the late
>> alleged villain Duggan may not have fired a weapon, either first or at all. The
>> round dug out of the copper's radio would appear to be standard issue police hollow
>> point 9mm. If the pistol allegedly found at the scene won't fire that ammo, there
>> are going to be some scarlet faces in the Met.
Just goes to show why it is worth waiting at least a few days, to hear the correct version.
I tend to turn big news events off these days, such as the recent Oslo shootings, with the idea that I'll read about it in a few days, after the casualty figures have stopped bouncing from 10 to 25 to 100, back to 25, up to 96, back down again...and when they actually know who has done it, rather than randomly suggesting Libyans, Al-Qaeda, Neo-Nazis etc, etc
It'll be a bit embarrassing if the cops are now shooting each other, but probably not a big issue , in the long run, as long as the guy actually did have a gun.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 14:22
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>> It'll be a bit embarrassing if the cops are now shooting each other, but probably
>> not a big issue , in the long run, as long as the guy actually
>> did have a gun.
It'll be more than a big issue if it turns out the gun wasn't fired at all.
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I would like to think our police marksman had good enough reflexes that when someone pulls a gun out the inside of their jacket, the police could shoot him before he gets a chance to pull the trigger........
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Indeed BG, i did also write that it also begs all sorts of questions about the actual circumstances, but decided to delete that part.
Was the gun ever actaully seen before the fellow was shot dead was one that sprang to mind if indeed it is a policemans bullet lodged in a radio.
It's not for the likes me to question the why's and wherefores, but the truth will out in time, hopefully.
One could say that carrying an illegal gun would likely result in instant results like this, but there's a fine line to be drawn...different in the heat of the moment though when everyone is keyed up.
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>> It'll be more than a big issue if it turns out the gun wasn't fired
>> at all.
Depends what you mean by a big issue. I meant a finding of wrongdoing on the part of the police.
It'll be very difficult to prove that they didn't act reasonably, if the guy actually had a gun.
Of course, some will never be happy and will kick up as much fuss as they can, but they would do that whatever the actual circumstances. In that sense it is a big issue, whatever the circumstances.
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>> It is time to drop the softly softly approach of a liberal police service in
>> London and adopt techniques developed abroad. It has been over two decades and more than
>> enough time for the police service to develop a proper civil disturbance strategy.
>>
>> The Garda in Eire. Their approach is to issue a timed warning to clear a
>> particular street or location. Then after the given time has expired, a charge is made
>> and anyone stupid enough to stand up to the police is batoned and/or arrested.
>>
>> As has been mentioned, it is about time tear gas was used along with water
>> cannon. Steps have to be made to quell hooligan behaviour on this scale that endangers
>> emergency personnel and public alike.
The fact that the police in those places are called upon from time to time to employ such tactics means that they work just as effectively as any other technique. The French forces go in hard, harder than any other in Europe, still get riots in Paris suburbs tho.
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" still get riots in Paris suburbs tho."
Maybe. But the louts causing grief in Enfield, Tottenham and now at this time possibly in Brixton see the likes of you and the police as a soft touch. Just view the footage of so many of them walking out of many stores, even in broad daylight and under the noses of old bill.
They know they are untouchable, and they use this cover of rioting due to an ethnic death as an excuse to raid shops for whatever they can.
As a resident or a business owner I would like the police to stop them from causing mayhem. Isn't that our right as law abiding tax payers. Why should they be allowed to get away with it.
We are trying to get this country back on its feet for heavens sake. Shooting commercial investment in these areas in the "foot" does no good for any commmunity with this kind of selfish, mindless behaviour.
Believe me, they don't like dogs or water. Spoils the look of designer clothing. ;-)
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>> Believe me, they don't like dogs or water.
LOL
In a riot, why do you never see Police dogs let off the lead? They'd never get the damn things back!
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>> In a riot, why do you never see Police dogs let off the lead? They'd
>> never get the damn things back!
>>
Speaking as a former dog handler (not police) dogs are not much use in a mass disturbance. The are great for shepherding crowds and preventing encroachment or stopping someone in a one to one situation, but tend to get over-excited when a riot kicks off and the people most likely to get bitten are the handlers.
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>> many of them walking out of many stores, even in broad daylight and under the noses of old bill.
They will have been photographed doing it. Some will later have their collars thoroughly felt as a result of that. A nasty surprise for them, excellent from the law-abiding citizen's point of view.
The police may not be perfect, but in general they aren't idiots.
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Poor old William of the Long Beard's end was being first drawn asunder by horses, and then hanged on a gibbet with nine of his accomplices who refused to desert him.
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Why do we not use water cannons in our country? Or rubber bullets? Shoot them all one by one and then round them up in the hospital and you don't need to waste resources trying to identify them on cctv and crimewatch.
If it was my house or business that was being torched I would be cheesed off big style if the police stood about explaining that it was part of a bigger social issue and they had to tread carefully!
And why do Tottenham youths not like the new Ford Focus model??? :)
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...And why do Tottenham youths not like the new Ford Focus model??? :)...
What?
I've gone right off them now.
The shape of the new Focus is growing on me, but the interior of the one I sat in felt cramped.
No Ford dealers to loot in Tottenham, I think the nearest is Dagenham Motors in Stamford Hill.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tottenham_riots
Lots of images and a Google Maps page of what happened where.
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What I find incomprehensible at times like this is the amount of people that must be law abiding, otherwise model citizens.. who will find some sympathy for a fellow who is glaringly obviously a 'wrong un'...just because he's 'from their community'.
If someone 'from my community' was killed in the same circumstances, i'd think 'good riddance', you shouldn't have been carrying an illegal gun and shot at a cop, you ...(insert profanity).
I can remember watching weeks and weeks of evidence on the O.J. Simpson trial..then watching amazed as he was acquitted, despite being as guilty as sin...then sadly watching a black church congregation on the news cheering, because he'd got off.
Why do all those people put their head in the sand, why do they not realise a crook getting uncalled for sympathy like that irritates everyone else and does their community harm..and so the merry go round carries on..it needn't be like it.
There's a few people in various communities in our country that need to stand up and declare right from wrong..spending a few hundred thousand of taxpayer's dough on a new community centre isn't going to do it.
You've only got to look at things like 'Long Way Round' or 'Long Way Down' to realise the average human being's default, wherever they come from, is a decent person and willing to help others..look at the reception Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman got, wherever they went. I'm sure people far more well travelled than me can back that bit up.
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Lets be honest, the two groups happiest at these riots are:
a) Organised crime, notably drug dealers, who have the shield of a community that is less willing to help the police in their fight against them.
b) The BNP
I find it deeply sad that these two loathsome groups will benefit.
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A number of nasty little thugs appeared to be white in the photos on the BBC website.
"Go in Hard"
What like the Syrians do ?
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Mr. Ecs?
Not asking you Y.
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If this government is not carefull there will be plenty of young whites roaming the streets and causing mayhem.
We are creating underclasses who have never been in work,young women having chilldren to recieve a house.
Not something to look forward to in my opinion.
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The bone idle have always existed, whilst we pay them to do naff all they'll be happy do take the money and all the perks that go with it, money grubbing MP's and other social climbers have been a shining example to those further down the ranks.
Why should young whites be roaming the streets, i thought that's why they extended opening hours so they could stay in permanent blotto and not have to think too deeply....that's only partially tongue in cheek by the way.
A serious question though, why single out whites?
Stop handing money out to those who haven't contributed to the system would be a good start, but it won't happen.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 15:35
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>> If this government is not carefull there will be plenty of young whites roaming the
>> streets and causing mayhem.
>>
>> We are creating underclasses who have never been in work,young women having chilldren to recieve
>> a house.
Never mind. In about 5 years time, the next Government - of whatever political hue - will discover it will HAVE to make more spending cuts. Not tax increases as these reduce economic activity.
And the biggest spending of all - for no reward - is benefits.
I anticipate major benefit spending cuts.. And they will mainly affect the young - as cutting OAPs pensions will kill them.
(Major = 50% plus).
It's all rather obvious if you look at tyhe sums and the outlook. See Greece.
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It is obvious madf but you can go only so far with spending cuts,if it causes social unrest you are on a loser.
Black or white it makes no difference to me,we all have to decide which type of society we want to live in .Is the modern politician the answer once there career is over they make speaches or become consultants.
Listening to Nick Clegg who should know better he is halve Dutch nothing changes.
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Dutchie.
No I am afraid you are viewing it as a choice.. There will be no choice.. And if it causes social unrest we may go down the US ghetto route and US style policing..
Not by choice but becuase we will be unable to afford the system we have now..
And I suspect the Government of the day may also be reduced to laws which say something like be caught for social unrest and you lose all your benefit entitlements...
I personally object to recipients of benefits breaking laws when we are paying to give them benefits.
When economic times get rough, opinions on these issues harden..
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Looks like its Hackney today, well, right now according to the news.
That Abbott woman, on the radio this morning all sweetness an light, now shes got a PC in a headlock. I dunno, MPs, anything for attention. Tut tut.
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It looks like it could kick off again - and it's not evening yet! I'd get the water cannon's out tonight.
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>> It looks like it could kick off again - and it's not evening yet! I'd
>> get the water cannon's out tonight.
>>
And and put florescent dye in the water and waive the human rights of anyone who gets dyed and later arrested.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 17:39
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Probably a good thing those on here (including me) are not in charge :-)
I'd use Taser's after soaking them all with water first. Might get a better 'connection'.
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Probably a good thing those on here (including me) are not in charge :-)
Old men fantasising I'm afraid ;-0
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rtj70, we are definitely on the same wavelength!!
Public announcement, anyone on street x will be deemed to be rioters and we will deal with you accordingly. You have 5 mins to get out, and that includes the press.
Seriously, all this touch touchy, the police don't understand our community and its issues doesnt work for me.
This country has rules that apply across all the country, don't break the law and the police won't be interested in you. Well most of the time anyway. Why should we need to be working alongside the police? The police are there to uphold the law, not negotiate preferential treatment!
Grrr
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I am sitting here wondering rather curious as to whether if you just threw water over the people cauing trouble and then tasered the water.
Just an idea, mass tasering would make for a great tabloid front page.
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>> Public announcement, anyone on street x will be deemed to be rioters and we will
>> deal with you accordingly. You have 5 mins to get out, and that includes the
>> press.
Right so, because once in a blue moon, there is some disorder and looting, which accounts for a tiny. tiny fraction of a percent of all the theft and property crime that occurs in the UK, you want to give the police some blanket power to classify all people in a given street as targets (even the press), who will be "dealt with", perhaps with water cannons, baton charges and rubber bullets?
Slippery slope if you ask me.
You would think that the whole country had declined into mass lawlessness, with martial law declared, and with the government struggling to hold on to power.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 18:14
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Shutting down the internet and mobile phone systems in selected areas for a few hours would disrupt the "organised" mobs. I can imagine the squeals from those who normally have a phone permanently attached to their ear.
And yes, the world did rotate before electronic communication.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 18:27
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Shutting down mobile phone signals is what despots do ! (See Egypt, Saudi Syria etc etc) also illegal.
Diane Abbott has been pontificating....remember her, chief hypocrite in charge Education for New Labour oh and a "forgot" to declare earnings of 17k ! Wittering on about criminals !
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>> Shutting down mobile phone signals is what despots do ! (See Egypt, Saudi Syria etc
>> etc) also illegal.
>>
In the extreme would our government be any different? We have emergency legislation which is very tough and includes using the military.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 19:35
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>> In the extreme would our government be any different? We have emergency legislation which is
>> very tough and includes using the military.
Its not extreme enough for that. It wasn't extreme enough in the Handsworth Riots, the First Tottenham riots, the Brixton riots, the American Embassy riots, in fact all the NUMEROUS riots since the war.
Compared to the riots we have had, this lot is pretty pathetic really. Honestly you lot are like the chattering washer women round the guillotine.
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>> Its not extreme enough for that.>>
I didn't say it was, I was responding to Rob who seems to think that temporarily shutting off communications is extreme. Tanks on the streets is extreme.
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I'd personal be on to Twitter to force them to give details of all the posters. IP addresses can be traced.
And then get back to my water cannon and Tasers.
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>> I'd personal be on to Twitter to force them to give details of all the
>> posters. IP addresses can be traced.
>>
I would be amazed if GCHQ isn't on the case already.
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>> >> Its not extreme enough for that.>>
>>
>> I didn't say it was, I was responding to Rob who seems to think that
>> temporarily shutting off communications is extreme. Tanks on the streets is extreme.
Shutting off communications is dangerous, disruptive and very very commercially costly.
Its pretty extreme.
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I'd use the evidence against them. And use the info to outwit them too.
Shutting communication will not stop them. And how do you turn off the Internet for only those in the area? Many ISPs over ADSL, Virgin over cable and all the mobile phone companies some of which will be Pay as You Go.
In fact if the had a brain they'd have a PAYGO SIM in their phone that is not traceable.
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I find it all very sickening because we have to pay for all this to be rebuilt, and of course some things cannot be replace like peoples lives.
I've just got back from a punk festival in Blackpool and had no idea all this has been going on. We all managed to have the best riot of our lives, without damaging a single piece of property.
I am slightly worried it might spread to Manchester, as I am only 10 minute drive from Moss Side, but hopefully things are very stable there now.
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This tension is increasing amongst my younger friends, many of them don't go to work but just interviews. They do try as well.
That said I am not sure it is a race thing, this tension is growing against my friends of all races.
My attitude is if you can't find a job make your own employment.
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No riots here. Out the front theres just a fat lad trying to chat up two much prettier girls who look extremely bored.
Such a sheltered existance here in the 'burbs. Prob a hive of swinging and cannabis farms, never can tell!
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Well, Fishguard and the surrounding villages haven't erupted yet, though there was a potential flashpoint this evening when five cars had to back up the hill in Lower Town to let a holiday maker get his caravan round the sharp bend.
You could feel the tension in the air and at one point one of the local hotheads threw a dirty look but the vicar arrived and managed to calm everyone down.
It was close, though.
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One of my sisters friend lives just round the corner from that burning street. She has been evacuated and told to get out of the area.
I just cannot imagine what it must be like to live in one of those flats with burning cars outside.
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Tottenham Hotspur have said the first game of the season at White Hart Lane on Saturday goes ahead.
I predict a lot of the players will be leaving the Bentley/Lambo at home and getting taxis to the ground.
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One thing for certain they won't be taking a bus !
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Watching this on BBC news is quite worrying, seeing a shop being set on fire which has stretched to the flats above and then seeing people trying to leave neighbouring flats and not a sign of the fire service.
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Not sure if there is any truth in this, but apparently it is kicking of in Birmingham now. Not seen any news reports on this. My sisters seen it on twitter, so it could be a hoax, but people on Twitter have a habit of reporting things before the news gets hold of it.
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Its being reported on the live BBC feed Rattle so yes it is true, near the Bullring apparently.
Last edited by: FoR on Mon 8 Aug 11 at 20:05
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From what I can gather, the police had intelligence (probably Twitter) it was going to happen and they have stopped it. A few shops damaged etc but probably nothing on the scale we have seen in London thankfully.
When they catch these scum I personally think they should feed them all to the Taliban.
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The youth/teenagers tend to like Blackberry - no idea why but it's true.... so this is interesting:
www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/08/blackberry_riots/
:-) I hope they get the ring leaders at least. Technology might be their ultimate downfall.
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All over the country there are gangs of disgruntled folk who have watched the news and seen that as long as you get a group together you can loot shops, get things you couldn't normally afford, and the police will stand back and allow you.
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I have a Blackberry for my business phone, I tend to find it a bit quicker and easier to use than Android for business stuff.
Nothing at all reported on the news about the Birmingham riots, but the BBC have at least confirmed it via Twitter.
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Been confirmed on BBC News channel rats
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>> I have a Blackberry for my business phone
It is a fact that teenagers prefer Blackberry to an iPhone.
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Yeah, they all like BBM.
Nicole has a blackberry, and her friends are on BBM.
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It's down to Blackberry's messaging system being unlimited and free, the Saudis have banned it because the chatter is dangerous, can't have the proletariat chatting to each other unsupervised
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Didn't know that before Rob about the BBM. Never used it myself. I thought Blackberry popular because they have keyboards. (I know not all do now)
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Never knew that, I assumed the youth would hate them. It looks like Leeds is next, again according to Twitter. There has been a shooting and about 100 people in masks involved.
I really hope the scum of Manchester at least have some pride not to start smashing things up.
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Acting commissioner of the MPC was just on. They will publish photos of those involved.... they will get a lot of these.... and then because the prisons are full do little. :-(
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see! Manchester is so far behind the times.
As always.
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Tottenham Razed Once Again - MD
