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Anyone else notice this or is it really old news that I missed somewhere?
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Interesting - don't go there often to notice. But when they introduced the new forum software last year they didn't want threaded and I'm not sure the underlying data structures would support it.
Could have been there for ages though.
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I thought it had always been there from when your bespoke forum was poorly copied by the other developer.
Thinking about it now though, I'm not so sure. It's one of those things that you tend not to notice, especially as I'm such an infrequent visitor over there since C4P came along.
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It's always been like that - it was one of the things the old members complained about when the new site eventually appeared.
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>> it was one of the things the old members complained about when the new site eventually appeared.
Considering what was still wrong when it eventually re-appeared, that must have been the least of their worries.
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Sorry, I wasn't paying attention - I thought you meant the threaded nature of the default view. I see what you mean now - don't know if that was there before or not. I suspect not.
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Yes, sorry, I meant threaded as opposed to flat view.
... I've just realised this will send a load of C4players over there looking now. Mind in case you bump into a helpless female! ;-)
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>> Yes, sorry, I meant threaded as opposed to flat view.
It was the fact that the 'flat' view wasn't was what caused some comment. I thought the whole point of doing it that way was to avoid having separate views!
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I've just checked HJ and it is flat view. I may not be the best understander of this but in C4P when I go in to a sub menu and select a topic, it is flat view. But if I select a topic from the latest list that displays the post and all other responses in threaded view.
Confused.com?
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>> I've just checked HJ and it is flat view.
But it's not truly flat - the posts are indented and coloured to show the thread structure.
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They show flat as default, but I didn't think they had threaded view as an option before. It was the appearance of the option that I was referring to.
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A bit of thread drift (but for various reasons I don't want to raise the profile of the following comments, as would happen if I started a new thread) - there seems to be quite a lot of "cross-referencing" going on at HJ/BR at the moment, some of which touches on my current gripes. I am quite unhappy with the lack of effective moderation over there and have made comments appropriately; nevertheless, nothing has changed. I deplore the obscene language (lightly concealed by the swear-filter) and self-indulgent, arrogant rants by one member in particular, neither of which seem to be enough of an issue to be firmly dealt with, and the slowness in removing spam. In fact, the technical section is the only one of consistent interest. I get the impression it's all been allowed to slide, possibly because there seems to be only one active moderator, who has too little time and too much to do.
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>> moment, some of which touches on my current gripes. I am quite unhappy with the
>> lack of effective moderation over there and have made comments appropriately; nevertheless, nothing has changed.
>> I deplore the obscene language (lightly concealed by the swear-filter) and self-indulgent, arrogant rants by
>> one member in particular, neither of which seem to be enough of an issue to
>> be firmly dealt with, and the slowness in removing spam. In fact, the technical section
>> is the only one of consistent interest. I get the impression it's all been allowed
>> to slide, possibly because there seems to be only one active moderator, who has too
>> little time and too much to do.
Oh really? I must go over there and play...
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"and self-indulgent, arrogant rants by one member in particular"
Are you referring to a certain 745. If you are, I completely agree. They're even having a pop at DD.
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The forum section of HJ now appears to hold little interest to the man himself and the site's management.
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>> "and self-indulgent, arrogant rants by one member in particular"
>>
>> Are you referring to a certain 745. If you are, I completely agree. They're even
>> having a pop at DD.
>>
Don't be unkind. He just has not grown up.
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To his credit, he doesn't flounce:)
Pat
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For what it's worth, I recall the HJ forms as both threaded and flat - I've always preferred the former so sometimes had to change the setting from flat.
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...For what it's worth, I recall the HJ forums as both threaded and flat...
I recall the same, but couldn't swear to it - even if this site didn't have a swear filter.
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.
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 2 Aug 11 at 17:08
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>> For what it's worth, I recall the HJ forms as both threaded and flat -
>> I've always preferred the former so sometimes had to change the setting from flat.
>>
I recall they dropped the threaded view and incorporated it as a stepped view in the flat view.
Dunno when the threaded function as per C4P was reinstated.
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How long has the latest posts box been there?
That seems a direct copy of C4P, although unlike on here it only appears when you're reading a thread and then vanishes again when you return to the main forum.
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Oops put in a link for c4p.
Haven't looked in on HJ for a month or so (maybe very briefly) - some serious attention seeking behaviour going on there.
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I see there's some spamming going on over there at the moment.
Several garbage posts from 'weishenme'.
Hope we're not next.
At least we have vigilant moderators.
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garbage? didn't you fancy one of those KM dresses yourself iffy? ;-)
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...garbage? didn't you fancy one of those KM dresses yourself iffy? ;-)...
Yes, but getting one to fit might have been a problem.
Size 0 I am not. :)
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>> At least we have vigilant moderators.
And we have more than one.
Avant seems to be the only mod on there these days. But due to other commitments he doesn't appear to be around much. If you use the report message button, it tends to go unnoticed, almost as if it goes to a non existant email address. Is it any wonder the garbage is piling up.
If they'd had treated their previous moderators with greater respect and listened to what we were telling them prior to the revamp, then perhaps we wouldn't have deserted them.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 10:58
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The reason why Avant (and any other mod) is not aware of messages from the report message link on HJ is that they only have webmail access to the moderators account. I believe on here (and on HJ in the past) the moderators each had a moderator account and if you setup a mail client to routinely check this you're aware of the reported threads. All messages to the moderators also went to the individual moderators.
When I was a mod, I could often respond quickly as I have Internet access throughout the day - it relied on people reporting things though.
Sadly moderators over on HJ are not trusted to have individual email addresses anymore. So the report message as offensive link is pretty useless if you have to log in to a webmail account periodically to check for emails.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 10:55
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The jungle drums seem to have been beating one way or another - the spam is now removed.
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>>The reason why Avant (and any other mod) is not aware of messages from the report message link on HJ is that they only have webmail access to the moderators account. <<
I can confirm that Avant and other Mods are aware of messages, since they always reply to me and fairly promptly too.
When I get up I routinely check our PDA forums for spam and remove it, I then read this forum and HJ.
On many occasions I have found spam posted on HJ and have pressed the 'report' button and always received a quick message of thanks from them.
If I ever found any on here I would do the same, but I never do:(
Pat
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"On many occasions I have found spam posted on HJ and have pressed the 'report' button and always received a quick message of thanks from them."
Then you're lucky, or specially favoured. I have used the "report" button quite a few times recently and have had no response. However, e-mailing the moderators has produced a response; on the most recent occasion I was told that my previous "reporting" had not come to anyone's attention. Make of that what you will.
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Well some moderator must be watching, my last innocuous post was deleted, didnt even mention this place by name. Meanwhile jamie whatsis face continues to eff and blind with impunity. Strange moderating principles.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 12:06
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...my last innocuous post was deleted...
That's probably why.
We expect more than innocuousness from you.
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Don't forget some of the moderating will be done by 'HJ Publishing'. So anything protecting the site in terms of others promoting things they shouldn't will probably be dealt with by her. Other stuff probably falls through the cracks. But Avant cannot do it single handedly.
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>> Don't forget some of the moderating will be done by 'HJ Publishing'.
And you and I both know they couldn't organise a drinking session in a brewery.
>> But Avant cannot do it single handedly.
This is what Mark RBLS found, which is why he asked if I'd like to moderate Tech Matters so he could spend more time moderating discussion. At the time moderating Tech Matters mainly consisted of a bit of housekeeping, eg, giving subject headers proper titles instead of vague ones, asking people to keep it to a technical level and moving idle chat to discussion if it didn't, etc. It was then found that I was around when Mark wasn't and vice versa so it made sense that I also help moderate the Discussion forum too. That way we both had the whole forum covered pretty much most of the day and evening. At one point we had it covered pretty much 24/7 when another moderator joined us due to different lifestyles and work commitments.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 13:20
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>>my last innocuous post was deleted, didnt even mention this place by name.<<
So why bother?
Trying to wind up other web forums is so last year dahling.
Pat
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I was merely answering an old members question about where everyone had gone. I didnt even mention this site by name.
Oh and by the way. If I want you sniping about everything I say, I would have married you.
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"If I want you sniping about everything I say, I would have married you."
But she doesn't - just some of the things you say. You do push your luck sometimes - as with this comment (don't we all, at some point?).
No surprises on either side, really.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 13:34
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Zero snipes at my posts all the time, but I don't want to marry the bloke.
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I do apologise Zero, but I often think I am married to you from your retorts.
Throwing stones and greenhouses springs to mind!
Pat
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Just a few points.
1 You can indeed get threaded view on the HJ forum: I'm not sure why that fact was of such interest to start a thread on this forum.
2 There are various reasons why we don't allow criticisms of other forums on HJ, not the least of them being that we are not in competition and the way in which other forums are run is nothing to do with us. If a thread criticising C4P (even without naming it) or its moderators were started on HJ I should have locked it ASAP.
3 Zero's and other posts were hidden because they were trying to encourage HJ posters to move to this forum.
4 Those of you who post on both forums will realise that we are troubled by an immature and bumptious person (named above) who is best described as rhyming with 'hillock'. We are committed to encouraging free speech within reason, and although we have deleted the most offensive posts, only one person has so far complained, and he has his defenders, including a lady who posts on both forums and whose views I greatly respect. Rest assured that if he excessively lowers the tone of a debate, the blue pencil will come out.
5 Finally, I'm not the only moderator on HJ: there are three of us - myself, Boris the Spider and Well-Known Sid. My two colleagues are normally around in the morning and have to delete a lot of spam: I am about most evenings. I have to confess that unlike our predecessors we work full-time and cannot respond as immediately as some would like. But....is it the end of the world that some extraneous material happens to be on a motoring forum for a short time? It seems to me that there are far more important things in the world to worry about.
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Hey I worked more than full time ! :-)
Edit: In fact we all worked full time !
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 21:39
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>> I have to confess that unlike our predecessors we work full-time and cannot respond as immediately as some would like.
All the previous moderators were in full time employment too Avant, myself included. We also had social lives outside of work (edit: and still do), but between all of us we still managed to moderate the HJ forum round the clock. It was a big commitment and responsibility back then.
IIRC, the record for a spam post remaining on HJ was 6 hours before one of us removed it.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but there was some spam in the bike section that had been there for over a week recently. How come your 2 colleagues managed to miss it during their morning sweep, and for over a week?
Also how come 99% of posts that are moderated (edited) have your name under them and not your 2 colleagues?
It sounds, and looks like to me that you're carrying the other two mods, and that's not fair on you. You should all be working together as a team, and if you're not then it's time to consider chucking the rotten eggs out the basket and getting someone in who is a team player.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 3 Aug 11 at 21:50
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I wonder why Avant thought we were part time workers. I was (and still am) working full time. Like Dave I was often up late looking at the forum etc.
Sounds to me that Avant is carrying the bulk of the moderation which in my opinion is not fair. I got recruited to moderate there when Dave et al thought the load should be shared a bit further and I was someone on the forum a lot.
All the best to Avant I say. It's lucky the expectations have changed. We'd edit thread titles to make them clear (to help people get a better response), move posts (telling the poster), etc.
The one taking the p on there isn't the one you name though. It think it's someone else... and if you had access to the stats etc like we used to you might work out who it really is. Locking accounts of spammers (assume you're doing that as well as removing spam) is something that needs doing.
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Do a lot of C4Pers still go on HJ? Till this thread came up I'd forgotton about it, haven't been on in many months.
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>> Do a lot of C4Pers still go on HJ? Till this thread came up I'd
>> forgotton about it, haven't been on in many months.
Same here - never posted there since the revamp. Don't mind having a look though when something like this crops up.
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>> Same here - never posted there since the revamp.
Still occasionally look at the car reviews though.
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>> Still occasionally look at the car reviews though.
Me too. And recently to look at old threads on Mazda6 gearbox. When I go back, I sometimes post if useful.
I have an alternative name on there if I want to participate more too as I feel my posts might too easily be deleted. Posted only a few times with it though. Not that the mods or HJ have noticed.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 4 Aug 11 at 00:29
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>> Do a lot of C4Pers still go on HJ? Till this thread came up I'd
>> forgotton about it, haven't been on in many months.
>>
I haven't been back, except once.
Coincidently my computer caught a virus that day..
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Having been registered with HJ BR since about 2002, and C4P for a goodly while, I do look in on both and can see an individual who posts very promptly and very regularly on HJ and has a lot to say on virtually every topic and with whom I would co-exist for about 3 minutes in real life and frequently compare the current with what was and the characters that were, but no longer, and, on the whole, regret the passing of the feel of the HJ site that was. But that's just my thoughts, which count for remarkably little.
In my ignorance I often wonder how many people registered and regularly contributing (on both forums in question) are genuinely just an individual posting their genuine views....and how many are the same person, with two (or more?) personas agreeing, supportively, with himself - or vehemently arguing with himself (assuming it to be a 'him' and not 'her', not that it matters). I would guess there are those who know these things given the wonders of technology.
But what I meant to get round to saying is that I admire the moderators, who must have the patience of a saint, given the time spent, and, occasionally, abuse received and would very readily acknowledge their endeavours. Clearly, judging by prompt responses to posts at all hours of the day, 7 days a week, some contributors must spend hours and hours with an eye on either or both of the forums and some seem to have an experts view on just about any topic that arises..........which I'm sure is wonderful - I wish I were that clever. But, the trouble, I sometimes find with this one, is the feeling of it being a slightly select gentlemans club, and you have to know the subtle and finer points of each's character in order not to get the wrong end of the stick at times - which would confuse a newcomer.
Either way, not mean't as a rant and thanks, mods.
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The excellent mods (PU/DD/Smokie) are over here now - sorry Avant. You're doing a stirling job single handed there (with different remit).
There were quite a few with multiple personas over there and probably on here too. Some tolerated and some not. One or two in the past over on HJ used to have conversations with themselves and it could be amusing. You know who you are :-)
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Risking the threat of a life-ban and tar-and-feathering for linking to another site, have a read of this drivel followed by more spoutings, topped off with pompous irony.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/posts/?t=92342
If such a thread appeared here I'd expect the mods to take it to pieces, or more likely delete it.
Simply awful.
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That is the one account on there that needs closely monitoring. His wings should be clipped but no one with authority is allowed to do it there. The terms of reference for the mods wouldn't really allow it - unless they changed.
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>> Risking the threat of a life-ban and tar-and-feathering for linking to another site
We've no problem with people linking to HJ, or most other forums come to that.
>> If such a thread appeared here I'd expect the mods to take it to pieces, or more likely delete it.
I'd have moved it to one of the speed or speeding related threads we used to have. By doing so more often than not soon reduced the amount of people replying to it ;o)
Oops! Letting out a little secret there.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 4 Aug 11 at 01:21
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>>If such a thread appeared here I'd expect the mods to take it to pieces, or more likely delete it.
Simply awful.<<
Why exactly Lygonos?
You've been asked that question on the thread and have obviously decided you don't need to explain, so perhaps you will do so on here.
I have been watching that thread with interest because in the past I have dealt with both BRAKE and ABD in my professional capacity.
Both have differing and interesting views on subjects but try as I may, I can't get my own views to coincide with either of them.
I was waiting for another person to come and discuss it, but you consistently failed to do that, preferring to limit yourself to disparaging remarks about the topic and the OP for 'daring' to post it.
All that tells me is that the subject, in depth, is beyond your ability.
Shame really, and certainly not conducive to a discussion forum.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 4 Aug 11 at 05:27
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>> a few with multiple personas over there
In my Africa hacking days I was the back-page columnist on a hip but alas short-lived little economic and political fortnightly newsletter covering West Africa. My page was called 'From the motor park', no byline. I was told the Africa desk man at the Financial Times, to whom I had filed stuff once or twice, called the column 'bizarre' and said he thought it was written by someone different each time.
The second most flattering judgment of my hacking career. But not as flattering as being called 'ingeniously foul-mouthed' in a review in the Times Literary Supplement.
Dahlings.
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>> it's time to consider chucking the rotten eggs out the basket and getting someone in who is a team player.
If he's a wine drinker, maybe he enjoyed the dozen bottles at Christmas from HJ too much to resign yet? It is close to December. He deserves something.
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I was accused by Zero yesterday of sniping at everything he says. I can assure you that had anyone who posts on here posted this…
>>Oh really? I must go over there and play...<<
Followed by
>>Well some moderator must be watching, my last innocuous post was deleted<<
..they would have had exactly the same reaction from me.
>>2 There are various reasons why we don't allow criticisms of other forums on HJ, not the least of them being that we are not in competition and the way in which other forums are run is nothing to do with us. If a thread criticising C4P (even without naming it) or its moderators were started on HJ I should have locked it ASAP<<
IMHO, car4play should adopt that rule as well.
>>Some tolerated and some not. One or two in the past over on HJ used to have conversations with themselves and it could be amusing. You know who you are :-)<<
More of us realised what was going on and allowed to go on than you realised, and was the cause of disapproval of the standard of moderation on HJ.
>>I'd have moved it to one of the speed or speeding related threads we used to have. By doing so more often than not soon reduced the amount of people replying to it ;o)
Oops! Letting out a little secret there<<
Not a secret VX, not clever either and had the effect of stifling debate to what suited and what didn’t.
>>maybe he enjoyed the dozen bottles at Christmas from HJ too much to resign yet?<<
That old chestnut again? *bored now*
Our Mods do it for love.
I’ve banged this drum for 18 months now since car4play started and have got nowhere.
Normally I wouldn’t give up with a view I feel so strongly about but when I see the site owner posting a thread with HJ in the title, inviting this sort of behaviour, I realise there isn’t any point.
A gross misjudgement and where one leads, others will follow as was proven.
The problems between HJ and this site owner may still have an impact for them both, however for me, and the vast majority of members of both or either websites, we don't want to spend the rest of our time caught up in them.
It's time to let it go, at least in public, and move on.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Thu 4 Aug 11 at 06:33
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>>Normally I wouldn’t give up with a view I feel so strongly about but when I see the site owner posting a thread with HJ in the title, inviting this sort of behaviour, I realise there isn’t any point.
and where did I invite this sort of behaviour Pat? Please, I simply just asked the question "When ... did the threaded view appear".
Our business is in the technicalities behind websites. I noticed that when the HJ forum first went live it didn't have threaded view but the indented flat view. I spent 3 days getting threaded view to work, so I knew it wasn't that easy. I don't visit HJ site that often. For that matter I don't visit here that often either! So when I suddenly saw the threaded view I thought maybe some on here who also visit there might have noticed what I didn't.
It's as simple as that.
Why the fascination? Because ironically it was a feature we are considering dropping here despite the complexities of coding it! So it was interesting to see a feature appear on that site which we have, but which we will probably lose.
And for the record, and I must have made this clear before, there is no problem between me, my company or anyone else here and HJ or anyone else at that company. No falling our or whatever. Got that please?
That doesn't mean to say that C4P doesn't look threatening to them. After all many of you came from there and if you were them you wouldn't like that. But it was their decision to stop the forum at the time which led to me powering up the same forum software as they previously had over here so we can't be held responsible for that.
As it happens, when we eventually get around to it, both sites will be vastly different so there should be no conflict or reason to fear there either.
So you might be asking why the change of direction for HJ from our programming services? The answer is simply this. We didn't have the time or resources to serve their needs as well as focus on our own business projects. That decision was initiated by me and, as it happens, at the same time they had found alternative resources to fulfil their own needs. It worked out well for both of us and a good decision - even though at our expense. As an ethical business we were just being true to ourselves, and over time it pays off for both parties; it has to if it is the right thing to do.
In the meanwhile we have been concentrating on our own iPages.biz website solution and have been able to overhaul the code in this system substantially. It is currently moving to another major upgrade and once this is done we may have some time to look at this site and what can be done with it. We are very positive at Khoo Systems because we have a great team now having taken on our own in-house full-time designer. The only place we could do with extra resources is in finding someone to assist in our sales and marketing. iPages has been growing steadily and it seems tragic that more companies are not aware of how strong it is as an integrated ecommerce solution. In our end of the market there are few competitors; so if any of you are brilliant at sales and looking for work, drop me a line (end of shameless plug!).
I trust that you can see that far from cynism, animosity or sniping, our own attitude much more positive about our own business and maybe what we can do here in the future. Isn't this the kind of tone we tried to establish over here anyway that has largely led to the more chilled out feeling here?
Last edited by: car4play on Thu 4 Aug 11 at 10:07
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...we have been concentrating on our own iPages.biz website solution...
I looked at that site a few months ago, but couldn't understand what it was meant to do.
Seems to me you have a good product, hidden behind impenetrable business/computer jargon.
Relatively cheap and easy to rewrite the copy on the site, and I know just the man to do it...
...Big Bad Dave.
I'm being serious, he can write clear, concise copy, and also has a grasp of computing in business, which should give him a head start in understanding the product.
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Despite all that, realistically you must have realised that a post from you with HJ in the title would result in the usual backbiting.
I think the clue was in this >> at least in public<<
Pat
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>> Despite all that, realistically you must have realised that a post from you with HJ
>> in the title would result in the usual backbiting.
No, I credited users here with more than that and this thread shows I have been mainly correct in this assumption.
It only got into a touch of "backbiting" when it got off topic and on to the subject of moderation and dealing with spammers which is something completely different.
Moderation is always going to be a touchy subject, and we just have to accept that. As I have said before, they are often in a no-win situation. Given the circumstances I think we are all agreed that they don't do a bad job on either site.
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I bitterly regret my comments above regarding HJ/BR, which probably played their part in taking the thread where it has gone. Having got frustrated over there, despite attempting to engage in some discussions and having been in contact with the moderators about certain postings, I gave vent to some of my irritation here, knowing that at least some would know what I was talking about. Bad move.
And when I look at another thread on here which has descended into childish abusiveness I'm quite tempted to quote Shakepeare: "A plague on both your houses."
Posting on forum such as this is fraught with problems. Conveying subtleties of tone and expression are difficult unless posts are worded carefully and skilfully. Even if they are so phrased, there is no guarantee they will be read sensitively. And both scenarios assume a basic sympathy on the part of reader and writer for each other - a little give-and-take, a little willingness to read between the lines. Even, sometimes, to give the benefit of any doubt.
Now include the presence of big egos - those who get a kick out of disruption, self-aggrandisement and the need to impose their view on others. Now include those with vulnerable egos, who cannot take any criticism, and indeed a whole range of different personality types.
Because we are not face-to-face we sometimes say things to each other we would never dream of saying otherwise, and with little heed for the fall-out. Though it's often pretended that there exists a concept of the "online community", things would be very different if we actually had to live near, or even with, each other.
Having said my piece, I think I'll keep my head down for a bit.
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Flitting between the two forums, there appears to be one member of each site that are causing a little unsettlement.
Their posting appears very similar in tone and both have had the troll tag bestowed upon them. Just wondering..... are J745 and SS one person?
They just seem so close I wouldn't be surprised. Or maybe it's a case of a chicken nugget generation thing going on. No wonder there is so much rage on the roads among the young bucks. ;-)
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Fri 5 Aug 11 at 14:24
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I think you'll find SS has a higher level of nuance and intellect.
If they're the same person I'm the Pope of Scotland.
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When did HJ forum get threaded view? - rtj70
