"Lord Glasman, a leading policy adviser, said the country should “draw the line” on immigration and even renegotiate EU rules that allow free movement for migrant workers.
He told The Daily Telegraph that Britain is “not an outpost of the UN” and the needs of the British people must be put first. "
tinyurl.com/66a6l7h
Typical nasty narrow minded Tories... Fascists. ... Oops he 's a Labour adviser..
So that's all right then.. will not be reported by the BBC as a result.
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Sounds sensible, but he's a Labour man, is he?
Mmm, I'll just have to hope my lot copy the idea.
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We definitely need to tighten up! Britain can no longer be expected to absorb immigrants as it has been doing. Whichever party is brave enough to make the stand will gain at least one more vote, mine!
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What we need are totally open borders, let everyone in, who the heck cares anyway, ive no idea why it is that Europeans should be allowed in with no restriction and Africans not, seems a perverse immigration policy based on where people come from, which boils down to pure racisim under the banner of the EU - they make out its some kind of inclusive project, but actually its pretty exclusive if your not in it.
If immigration actually mattered, ALL people coming across the border would matter, if it really was a case of numbers, but its not, its a case of keeping some people out and letting others in.
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>>What we need are totally open borders, <<
In an ideal world maybe... but in todays political climate we will become just another middle-eastern state, complete with Libyan-type troubles. Our defences (customs) maybe very "leaky", but we would soon know the difference if we didn`t have them i`m afraid.
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>> What we need are totally open borders, let everyone in ...
SO the world moves here 1 year before retirement and we have to pay to feed/house them all?
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Well according to everyone on here the place is going to rat poo in a hand cart, so why dont we let them all in and we all dos off to France!
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 19:39
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To many French in France.;) I'm a immigrant better watch my step.
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Very few people I know will express any opinion suggesting that there is too much of some sorts of immigration. Generally speaking though the people I know best, including some who think themselves high Tory traditionalists, are distinctly shy of letting themselves in for any suspicion of racism or xenophobia, like the good centre-left liberals (note lowercase) most of them are at heart. This applies across the board, with exceptions of course, to the entire political 'class' which includes media, academic and other professional groups.
The main exceptions in my experience are people of Caribbean or Middle Eastern origin, themselves immigrants, who have gone native (as one would) but retain the sort of hard practicality that makes the chattering classes feel a bit squeamish. This is an aspect of the human comedy, easily understood, that gives me a lot of pleasure.
However: from the government's point of view this is no simple matter these days. The immigrants are filtered through Europe but so are the legal political options.
The thread title is misleading by the way. I hope not too many people have been disappointed not to find a crazed farrago by some fascist thug.
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>>The main exceptions in my experience are people of Caribbean or Middle Eastern origin, themselves immigrants, who have gone native (as one would) but retain the sort of hard practicality that makes the chattering classes feel a bit squeamish. This is an aspect of the human comedy, easily understood, that gives me a lot of pleasure. <<
Ill nominate my Indian BIL to add to that list, he thinks the British are comical when it comes to immigration. Just dug out the phrase he used - ' lily livered surrender monkeys who cant say no unless they are told they can ' - he says that as an aussie immigrant where they have the same tensions but dont wander round the garden about it.
Theres much to like about aussies for sure, they wont even let us lot from the colonies just arrive at the place and set up house as my sister has found out. Shes married to an aussie citizen, has a child born there and still she cant be a citizen yet.
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>>> I hope not too many people have been disappointed not to find a crazed farrago by some fascist thug.
...as I was, I should have added.
Ξ:o}
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>>
>>
>> The thread title is misleading by the way. I hope not too many people have
>> been disappointed not to find a crazed farrago by some fascist thug.
>>
I think that's the point of irony AC - you deliberately tempt people into seeing something one way in order to make a telling point when the true implications are revealed.
Winning with honest trifles to betray in deepest consequence.
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options.
>>
>> The thread title is misleading by the way. I hope not too many people have
>> been disappointed not to find a crazed farrago by some fascist thug.
>>
It was deliberate... I wanted to see the reaction and who picked that up..
We of course have a benefits system and culture designed to discourage people from working, discourage alternative views and a criminal justice system designed to protect the guilty.
And all this talk of needing immigrants to do jobs in Britain is true but only because we have an education system which is incapable of educating half the population.
(The NI case and the Met response prove my point on the Criminal Injustice System)
Last edited by: madf on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 08:52
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>>SO the world moves here 1 year before retirement and we have to pay to feed/house them all?<<
Well technically most of the EU CAN hop on a ferry and live here should they want to, so we are just very lucky that they havent because we can do nothing about it should it happen.
We cant even expel people we want to.
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>> >>SO the world moves here 1 year before retirement and we have to pay to
>> feed/house them all?<<
>>
>> Well technically most of the EU CAN hop on a ferry and live here should
>> they want to, so we are just very lucky that they havent because we can
>> do nothing about it should it happen.
>>
>> We cant even expel people we want to.
And we can hop on a ferry and do the same.
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>>And we can hop on a ferry and do the same.<<
True, but these folk wouldnt be pouring into this country if theirs was worth the ferry ride.
I wouldnt mind Germany though, but I cant be bothering with speaking the lingo, used to but lack of use killed the old memory cells :-) perhaps why Germans arent flooding in here, its pretty nice there.
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"but I cant be bothering with speaking the lingo"
Yet we expect those coming here to do so.
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>>Yet we expect those coming here to do so<<
Hence I havent moved there....... doh!
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Free immigration is TOTALLY incompatible with a welfare state with a Human Rights Act which insists everyone is entitled to everything...
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A recent survey found that halve the UK population have German blood.
The other halve is doubtfull.;)
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I(f we were to stop going into foriegn type places and making them unstable, we wouldnt have floods of people coming here.
Most of those trying to jump in here now are Afghani's and Iraqis. Italy is now drowning under a weight of Libyans.
Its all out fault, had we kep ourselves to ourselves it wouldnt have happened. And have we learned yet? Nah not after 300 years of interfering elsewhere.
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But why is this planet in a continious state of turmoil.Iam watching the television and thousands of Africans are starving of hunger.2pound a month for this or 2pound a month for that and nothing changes.
Whilst weapons are produced there will be wars It's the nature of the beast.
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And just exactly how does anyone expect the UK to be able to manage fiscally as our curent population ages faster than they have been breeding, skewing the age profile to give a massive dependent old populace being supported by a diminishing younger bunch?
Immigration (with some form of control) is vital unless we can stop the Jeremy Kyle types outbreeding the useful members of society.
Eastern Europeans come here, work, pay taxes, use little resource, and then either go back home or remain as young family units.
Also the Polish chicks add a much needed degree of 'hotness' to the gene-pool sadly lacking in much of GB.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 21:58
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>> Eastern Europeans come here, work, pay taxes, use little resource, and then either go back
>> home or remain as young family units.
Yes and what a bunch of evil nasty folk (B) they are too. Don't reply, do your homework.
>>
>> Also the Polish chicks add a much needed degree of 'hotness' to the gene-pool sadly
>> lacking in much of GB.
>>
Sad man.
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Come of it Martin. Any barrel can contain an odd bad apple but the local Poles (or Romanians, Bulgarians, Lithunians) I run into in Aldi are decent folks. Nobody in Sainsbury's ever lets me go ahead of a week's shopping 'cos I'm only grabbing a bottle for tonight's dinner. But it happens all the time where the town's less well off folks shop.
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>> Come of it Martin. Any barrel can contain an odd bad apple but the local
>> Poles (or Romanians, Bulgarians, Lithunians) I run into in Aldi are decent folks. Nobody in
>> Sainsbury's ever lets me go ahead of a week's shopping 'cos I'm only grabbing a
>> bottle for tonight's dinner. But it happens all the time where the town's less well
>> off folks shop.
>>
Of course I may be wrong, but I think that most of what they earn, however little that may be, gets sent 'home'.
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I think immigration is vital for the economy in the sense of people coming to the country to fill gaps in areas others do not wish to work in. Plenty of nurses, doctors, so on have come to this country and we are grateful for them. Also people who come to the country stay, have families and their children become british citizens and we don't view them as immigrants.
I think the issue lies with the people who come who don't have any skills they can offer or provide and who struggle to find jobs. However the ones that do do anything just to remain in the country. The real people who need to leave are the illegal immigrats but loads of them get losts and can't be deported.
The population is ageing and is growing but that is a world issue not an issue for this country alone. Weirldy even though the population is growing lots and lots several billion in the last 80 years or so the amount of older people is still higher. However if everyone had enough food and space this would not be a problem. If there was enough jobs to go round as well immigration would not be an issue. There is plenty of pretty people in this world, english, polish whatever!! I am half dutch and my husband is polish and we both work very hard.:-).
Lydia Daughter of Dutchy
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Visited a factory in the South East recently. Makes foodstuffs.
Saw the MD, had a tour of the plant and spent the day going over their plans.
Great company. Employs about 300 people, give or take a few. About 80% of the workforce are Eastern European.
The company pays £12 per hour for manual work and offers shift and overtime and has a subsidised canteen. The staff all seemed happy and very chatty with the MD as I went around, often stopping him for a chat rather that the other way which you don't often see, but then he says he tries to get his hands dirty on the shop floor when he can so he knows whats going on.
They advertise in the local job center, free paper and paid for local paper. The people that apply and turn up for interviews are the Eastern Europeans and there is not enough of them.
There is high unemployment in the town that they are in an also in most of the towns within say 45 minutes drive.
The lack of local people applying means that they have to advertise abroad and it is having a impact on their growth - they have orders, they have the plant, they don't have the required staff and see immigration as the only way of getting more.
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With 2 million unemployed, one has to wonder why we need that many people from anywhere but here to fill jobs.
Clearly we need to export some of these 2 million people because there clearly are the jobs around if we are in urgent need to import workers, so it must be down to the unemployed not wanting to work - I read the other day Australia has a labour shortage in some parts which they will fill with immigrant labour, a joined up system would point them in that direction atleast, make it possible/easy.
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Australia has a labour shortage in some parts which they will fill with immigrant labour, a joined up system would point them in that direction atleast, make it possible/easy.
We did that with our London ne'er-do-wells 200yrs ago ;-)
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>> With 2 million unemployed, one has to wonder why we need that many people from
>> anywhere but here to fill jobs.
>> Clearly we need to export some of these 2 million people because there clearly are
>> the jobs around if we are in urgent need to import workers, so it must
>> be down to the unemployed not wanting to work -
Indeed it its, there is a core of about 2 million, white, anglo saxon native British people who refuse to work, that expect you and me and immigrants to keep them.
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I'm sorry if your life/happiness have been devastated by the influx of Europeans.
Personally if I'm walking down a street late at night, I'm not watching out for immigrants to avoid, I'm more concerned about our indiginous drunkards.
And the Daily Wail doesn't count as homework.
And the hot Polish chick comment is mildly humourous.
And a population of people entirely like you would indeed by a crap place to live - try Mid-West USA for starters.
The very fact that young Brits seem unable to get jobs (read unwilling) where foreigners can get them in their hundreds is a sad indictment of the expectation and work-ethic of the Brits, not the foreigners.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 23:41
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>>The very fact that young Brits seem unable to get jobs (read unwilling)<<
Thats a rather sweeping comment. Ok, Im not young, but I scan the papers/net every week looking for work and theres very little work out there.
I am only qualified to do one thing but now I have to work for £3 an hour to compete with the prices at these drive through places that pop up everywhere, often staffed by immigrant labour ( one company has featured on a border control prog, sponges down, streaking across car parks etc, very funny ).
So I have been looking to see if theres something else out there. There really isnt, there may be in some places no doubt, but who can afford to move or even travel that far these days such is the cost.
Ive applied for around 10 jobs, bottom of the pile type things and ive yet to even have a reply, let alone interview. Its lucky I dont need a job atm because id be stuffed.
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It's a pity you only have one skill.
Totally unable to learn anything else.
Ever.
On the scrapheap already.
C'mon man grow a pair and reach out!
Can't knock doors at every car emporium within 20 miles?
Skin bits of chicken in a food factory?
Attend a public toilet?
Oh hang on that doesn't read right.....
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Lygonos, seriously, I can only think you never came across my personal revelation some time ago so ill forgive your ignorance about me and the many ongoing issues I deal with in my life, needless to say, they make finding stable employment extremely difficult, its why I work alone.
But I wasnt talking about me specifically, just that ive looked for myself and seen what thousands of other people will. Few opportunities. Gas fitters are in demand though!
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Sorry Stu, I've vaguely followed most of your posts since about 2009 although I skim many of them
I've remembered more about the car to-ing and fro-ing than the domestic stuff.
And the handful of HJ/c4p members who thought you were Walter Mitty or an elaborate forum troll!
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>> Ive applied for around 10 jobs, bottom of the pile type things and ive yet to even have a reply
You'll be lucky to get one reply from 100 applications at the moment Stu.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 01:21
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>> Im not young, but I scan the papers/net every week looking for work and theres very little work out there<<
Why not re-invent yourself, I've worn many tags o'er the years, such as dispatch clerk (packer), offset litho machine operator (machine minder) van driver, lorry driver, mobile engine tuner, and my latest one ... born again idiot!
:o}
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Next time you visit a hospital or a care home have a look around who is doing the work. You can bet a large proportion will be those nasty evil folk you so despise MD. You best just hope they are still around when you need someone to care for you
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We were recruiting recently, 2 x skilled posts, paying comfortably above market average, beefy benefits package and scope to move about within a large company. The only downside is shift work (no night shifts though) and some weekend & on-call work (all paid overtime at time & half + standby allowance).
There's sod all workers out there.
We did eventually fill the positions, but not before dragging the lead recruitment agency over the coals for the calibre of candidates being sent in.
Last edited by: Skoda on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 05:47
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>> Next time you visit a hospital or a care home have a look around who
>> is doing the work. You can bet a large proportion will be those nasty evil
>> folk you so despise MD. You best just hope they are still around when you
>> need someone to care for you
>>
You are an objectionable little person CG. Where did I mention despise? No, I thought not.
Eastern European men in my experience are among the most violent and nasty folk in the world. I have spent the last 35 years working in the Construction Industry and allied trades from the lowest of the low positions when that was all that was available (cos I WON'T sit on my backside) to running projects from 250k to 2m and having to deal with labour of all backgrounds and origins. The lower end of that spectrum with my own money. I speak from experience.
The matter of the 'need' to have immigrants here is another subject. I and EVERYONE that I speak to who are generally law abiding, middle England, tax paying, conservative in nature folk, are all sick to the back teeth of paying for the army of Ponces who won't get off of their backsides (and who are supported in their inertia) by successive Governments. Single Mother's who can demand the Pram that they WANT etc. Young British white men who are sallow in complexion, next best thing to emaciated (because they eat and drink crap) who when asked if they would like so and so reply with, if ya like. We are all sick to death of it. These parasites should be made to work or left to starve. This situation CANNOT continue, do the Maths. Lily livered Liberals, Parent's (sic) and the don't smack 'em brigade are to blame along with crap media of all sorts. There is no shortage of available hands to do work. There is a shortage of will.
MD.......and I don't even despise you surprisingly.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 25 Jul 11 at 00:39
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>> You are an objectionable little person CG. Where did I mention despise? No, I thought not.
I think the phrase Yes and what a bunch of evil nasty folk (B) they are too. Don't reply, do your homework might have given a certain impression.
That Eastern Europeans working in construction etc are (allegedly) so violent nasty etc says more about the industry's recruitment practice or it's paradigm than about national characteristics.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 22:52
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>> That Eastern Europeans working in construction etc are (allegedly) so violent nasty etc says more about the industry's recruitment practice or it's paradigm than about national characteristics.
>>
They take on the amount of labour that they require, but referring to my post, if the lazy gits in this country were forced to work instead of languishing in front of widescreen TV's then recruitment from EE wouldn't be required.
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No you didn't say despise but you did call Eastern Europeans "nasty evil folk" which does imply a rather strong and intense disliking of Eastern Europeans on your part does it not?
There are without doubt unlikeable individuals of all nationalities but to label a whole ethnic groups or nationality evil is unpleasant and unjustified.
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>>This situation CANNOT continue<<
I agree with every word you said Martine, because it's the god damn truth!
But, as you also say, England has gone to Hell in a handcart - finished!
A great shame IMO, but I even think maybe it wouldn't have been so bad under The Furer after all!!
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>> A great shame IMO, but I even think maybe it wouldn't have been so bad
>> under The Furer after all!!
I think for the first time on this forum (and only once, I recall, on HJ), it's time to mention Godwin's Law.
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If the country is so bad, and "gone to hell in a hand cart" why are you all still here?
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>> If the country is so bad, and "gone to hell in a hand cart" why
>> are you all still here?
Because sterling has been hammered so badly, that we can't afford to go anywhere else...
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Oh yes - I forgot we cant sell our "worthless houses" now can we,
Honestly most of sound like Fraser from Dads army on a bad day.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 16:35
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>> Oh yes - I forgot we cant sell our "worthless houses" now can we,
Yeah, we can sell them, but we'll unfortunately get paid in a currency that is pretty much worthless anywhere else.
Fancy moving to Oz? Unfortunately your £400K that would have got you almost 900K dollars 3 years back, will now get you 600.
Heard that property has fallen in the US? Yeah, but the value of your money has gone down 20% against the dollar in the same time.
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A$600,000 will still get you a very nice house.
www.realestate.com.au/property-house-sa-adelaide-107532001
and some money left over.
Jobs?
mycareer.com.au/jobs/adelaide/
So, when can I book your ticket?
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>> A$600,000 will still get you a very nice house.
>>
>> So, when can I book your ticket?
Hmmm, will you give me a lift to the airport too?
Seriously though, we've sort of planned to either go to Oz or Canada for a few years now (earn a bit of cash in London first), but have been put off by the crash in sterling.
I suppose it depends upon your view of whether the pound will recover, and how long that might take.
Not sure about the Canadian economy, but Australia looks to be very strong.
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>> have been put off by the crash in sterling.
>> I suppose it depends upon your view of whether the pound will recover, and how long that might take.
One hopes it won't of course, but sterling may go on falling and falling against other currencies until we are begging in the street from all the rich Somalis and Malians living in the houses we can no longer afford to maintain on funds they have brought from home...
Perhaps it would be better to strike while the iron is hot SS. The opportunity to move to paradise could slip away for ever.
Of course we don't want to get rid of you. We would prefer you to stand shoulder to shoulder with us in the adversity we are awaiting with such noisy and repetitive trepidation.
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>> Perhaps it would be better to strike while the iron is hot SS. The opportunity
>> to move to paradise could slip away for ever.
Yeah, it certainly has been on my mind recently.
>> Of course we don't want to get rid of you.
Well, I'd still be with you in spirit. Might even pop back here for the occasional row with you guys if I can pull myself away from the barbie.
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>> but Australia looks to be very strong.
And it will remain that way while they keep digging it up and sending it to China. They are however in danger of creating one giant mine to the exclusion of all other. BIt of a backlash starting over there
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>> Hmmm, will you give me a lift to the airport too?
>
Gladly, When can you leave?
Remember only 22kilos of baggage each tho.
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>> I even think maybe it wouldn't have been so bad under The Furer after all!!
Only for thuggish murdering thieving anti-Semites, racists and so on Perro. I didn't have the impression you were one of those. Perhaps you have been misleading us.
If you have any brown, black or Jewish friends who aren't mad enough to share that view, I should keep it quiet in their presence. Because they won't admire you for it.
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.....or gay, Jehovah's Witnesses etc...
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...If you have any brown, black or Jewish friends...or gay, Jehovah's Witnesses etc...
As Dog said....:)
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>> As Dog said....:)
And as I said Iffski.
Perhaps this is an age thing. Lots of mature people are quite reactionary and quite xenophobic, and the modern age is so annoying that people get, well, seriously annoyed. But people of my sort of age tend to see 'Hitler had a point' remarks, even made in jest or half-jest, as straying a bit beyond the ordinary bad taste some of us enjoy so much. You can let it pass in conversation but writing it down seems to me to be what Dog might easily call 'bad karma'.
European Jews of my generation, of all sorts but the ones I know serious, learned, funny and witty, amusing people (and highly critical of Israeli government policy Dog!) get very, very offended by stuff of that sort. They might not say much but they might be reluctant to speak to you again. Something to do no doubt with the dispossession, persecution and deliberately cruel murder of some of their close relations - all of them in some cases.
I don't see myself as the thought police or anything. I don't award red gongs or ask for threads or posts to be removed because they offend mine eye. But a gentle hint to people who may be a bit careless but don't seem bad at heart is excusable surely?
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>> >> >
>>
>> And we can hop on a ferry and do the same.
>>
Like the millions of Britons emigrating to the Horn of Africa in search of sun and opportunity?
Why do I get the feeling it's likely to be a one-way traffic?
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If there weren't so many immigrants we wouldn't need so many immigrants to look after them.
It might also have the effect of employers with horrid jobs paying British people enough to tempt them into doing them!
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Typical politician, half wit publicity seeking twerp, go outside and listen, the only sound is the slamming of stable doors, and the phantom echo of hooves long gone.
In all honesty it's not the fault of politicians, they can't hep being who they are for the most part, greedy dishonest con men hungry for power at any cost.
It's the Britsh electorate who believed the lies spin and utopia politicians, eagerly endorsed indeed propagandised by their former, (couple of weeks glitch here whilst the shift changes), bed fellows..the media spouted, and voted for them time and again, who are to blame for the whole sorry mess.
Classical con, kerching.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 11:37
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>>Typical politician, half wit publicity seeking twerp, go outside and listen, the only sound is the slamming of stable doors, and the phantom echo of hooves long gone<<
You should have bin a Politician GB, you'd ave got on well with Blair
(Eric Arthur NOT Anthony Charles Lynton!)
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>> you'd ave got on well with Blair
:-))
Hardly aspire to those heights D me old mate.
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>>Hardly aspire to those heights D me old mate.<<
You don't do bad at all me old son :)
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>> If there weren't so many immigrants we wouldn't need so many immigrants to look after
>> them.
>> It might also have the effect of employers with horrid jobs paying British people enough
>> to tempt them into doing them!
>>
Hmm.. When the benefits system can pay you for your housing etc tax free to the equivalent of £60k a year, no one with any sense will work...
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>>Hmm.. When the benefits system can pay you for your housing etc tax free to the equivalent of £60k a year, no one with any sense will work...<<
Quite. I resisted for many years the notion of accepting state handouts BUT in the end, other policies such as Chris 'I wasnt driving' Huhne's green taxes mean that getting on the bandwagon is the only course of action and we DO live in a handout society now, they simply will not allow you to be that poor, so the incentive to do nothing grows.
In benefits terms, my £67 pcm isnt alot, so I have decided that if some foreigner can turn up here and get a huge house rent free, ill have me sixty quid thanks, I have atleast paid taxes over the years.
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>> Hmm.. When the benefits system can pay you for your housing etc tax free to
>> the equivalent of £60k a year, no one with any sense will work...
Could you explain to me how that 60k pa is made up? ie how can I claim it.
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>> Could you explain to me how that 60k pa is made up? ie how can
>> I claim it.
>>
Housing benefit: choose a number between £20k and £100k.
Family credits, child suppport , disability allowance (scared of work), etc etc..
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I think the snag is though that you have to have all these liabilities first (wife, children, disability, no home, no job). They don't just give you the £60,000 and then leave you free to decide how you would like to spend it.
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Disablity allowance isn't just given away - plenty of very sick people are turned down. Claimant appeal succeses on Employment Support/Incapacity Benefit and on Disability Living Allowance are both runnig at around 40%.
The only people who get rich on HB are Landlords.
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The only people who get rich on HB are Landlords.
And that bubble is about to burst.
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There hasn't been any substantial period of time in the past 2000yrs that the UK hasn't had significant immigration.
This is a debate of ignorance and xenophobia - both normal human characteristics I guess.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 17:49
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Funnily enough some university or other is debating a DNA analysis undertaken in this corner of Wales in 2009 - they seem to think that there was mass immigration here 4000 years ago from the err...Balkans...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/8007969.stm
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>>There hasn't been any substantial period of time in the past 2000yrs that the UK hasn't had significant immigration.<<
Substantial periods of one thing or another happening dont have any basis as a justification for them to continue. Im afraid thats a very poor point. I shant list them but Im sure you can think of a few that arent so wonderful.
I dont much care for skin colour or even individual cultures, none is more important to me than any other, but I do care about the societies ability to assimilate people and there is a critical point at which it becomes difficult in peoples minds.
So far as I can see, its a mix of problems. In the main I think its low-earners who see the influx of cheap labour as a threat, but they blame the labour coming in rather than the lazy citizens of this country who wont do those jobs who then create the need.
There is obviously some creep where there are people who could do these jobs here competing with jobs taken by immigrants, nothing is ever that clear cut of course, but its the very low-end where the real issue lies.
People often get passionate when they see their long term job prospects going down, more so when the economy is stagnant, so I sympathise with the frustaration.
I also have my doubts about this countrys ability to create the infrastructure to support a continued high level of immigration, in terms of transport and services. Im sure its possible to build it, but whether it could be financed, whether it could be built in time to keep up Im not sure.
The more you stretch services, the more people get annoyed at the situation and immigrants that seem to pour in will be an easy target.
These are my real concerns, because if one is honest, we live in an ineffective country that cant get things done in the same way as the japs or chinese can, so the backlog, the stretching of services, it only serves to make intergration difficult.
It doesnt matter whether or not its morally right to blame immigrants for practical things like these, people will if it gets bad enough because in simple terms, the more people you have, the more services you need for them, which if you cant afford them or provide them adequately, the local population will be far less willing to share the diminishing resources.
But what do I know.
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>> In the main I think its low-earners who see the influx of cheap labour as a threat...
In my experience, most of the commentators voicing their opinion against the influx of 'migrant workers' are actually non-earners - whether longterm unemployed, or retired folks bumping their gums.
They're also the people who, without 'immigration' to whinge about would be commenting upon the various ethnics already in our communities.
The 'Japs' as you put it are in a similar quagmire as ourselves: an aging population being supported by a shrinking working population and a stagnating economy with high taxes - only in Japan there isn't the mindset that 60/65 is when you should down tools and expect the world to line your nest for the next 25 years.
How do we support the skewed population without a 'supply' of generally healthy taxpayers at the bottom of the age pyramid? The taxation system is rapidly moving away from supporting people having families so I imagine the birth-rate will drop further over the next 10 years or so, compounding the problem.
I absolutely agree that more must be done to encourage integration of all groups - banning religion would be a good start ;-)
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>>They're also the people who, without 'immigration' to whinge about would be commenting upon the various ethnics already in our communities<<
Thats a rather sweeping generalisation. Just because the BNP and their ilk bang on about immigration and ethnicty being one topic, they dont represent the majority view.
The most anti-immigration people ive met are my BILs Indian relatives living in London - maybe because they are a 'minority' they feel they can talk openly about it perhaps without someone accusing them of being racist, which is a pathetic state of affairs.
This is 2011, normal people really dont care about ethnicity, they care about jobs, services, housing, real issues and its frankly an antiquated and unpleasent view of the general population to saddle then with some sort of built-in racisim that in my experience is extremely rare. Its distasteful to keep taking it down that line to suppress the issue, only half-wits think ethnicity matters in immigration - if half a million americans turned up here they would be no less of a problem.
>>The 'Japs' as you put it are in a similar quagmire as ourselves <<
Perhaps but how they deal with things as a society is somewhat more pro-active. If that tsunami had hit here we would still be living in our garden sheds while some numbnut does a risk assessment. We would also be waiting for the council to sort us out rather than do it ourselves.
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>
>> Perhaps but how they deal with things as a society is somewhat more pro-active. If
>> that tsunami had hit here we would still be living in our garden sheds while
>> some numbnut does a risk assessment. We would also be waiting for the council to
>> sort us out rather than do it ourselves.
I always understood the Japanese to be the most tightly regulated, authority led, do as you are told, "free" nation anywhere.
I dont think DIY is in the japanese makeup.
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And yet they get things done. Perhaps they have the RIGHT regulation and attitude.
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>> And yet they get things done. Perhaps they have the RIGHT regulation and attitude.
As far as I know, they have the type of regulation you and I would not accept.
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I dont accept the type of regulation we have here because it is petty and small-minded, dreamt up by left-wing jobsworths who like to impose authority on the general populous.
If theres a practical or strong moral purpose to regulation I fully support it, you forget, im a speed limit advocate etc.
If it is about councils spying on pensioners or making them lug heavy bins about, putting the rights of criminals before those of victims or giving people so many 'rights' they can pretty well do as they please, then no.
I say again, had that tsunami hit the UK, id bet all that tea thats supposedly in China that we would still be in a terrible mess and George and Mavis would be sitting on their pile of rubble waiting for the council to do something ( imagine a double page Daily Wail article ).
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>> I say again, had that tsunami hit the UK, id bet all that tea thats
>> supposedly in China that we would still be in a terrible mess and George and
>> Mavis would be sitting on their pile of rubble waiting for the council to do
>> something ( imagine a double page Daily Wail article ).
Why not go and live in Japan then?
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>>Why not go and live in Japan then?<<
I admire them, doesnt mean I need to go and live there, only morons think any idea/philosophy that isnt our own must be inferior. I look outward across the globe for solutions to these issues and see who may be doing it better.
You obviously have a very inward looking nature, but im afraid running public services isnt a strong point in this country, never has, maybe never will.
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I have far of a less "inwards" looking nature than most on here. Certainly more practical and pragmatic than most. I know the grass is not greener on the other side of the hill and if it is the grass costs in some way or other.
As a matter of balance, the grass is pretty good in the UK. Yes its better in some other places, but Japan is not one of them.
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I fear you may have a case of the "grass is greener syndrome"
Seems they have much the same problems as us:
search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20090113zg.html
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>> The taxation system is rapidly moving away from supporting
>> people having families so I imagine the birth-rate will drop further over the next 10
>> years or so, compounding the problem.
>>
Point of information.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13809280
QUOTE
Britain has undergone a dramatic baby-boom in the first part of this century - and experts suspect that, inadvertently, Tony Blair is the daddy.
According to a report out today, women in the UK have suddenly started to have significantly larger families: in 2001 the average was 1.64 but by 2008 it was 1.97.
END-QUOTE
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Precisely - because the anti-family laws of the previous Conservative regime was replaced by a pro-family set of affiars by the last bunch of idiots.
To maintain the population even 1.97 kids/woman isn't quite going to manage.
What made the UK a great nation was when we realised infrastructure is more important than simply keeping £££ in the hands of the very rich.
The USA has a strong mentality towards keeping the rich very rich due to their belief that the wealth "trickles down" to the guys lower down.
Fantasy.
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>>keeping the rich very rich due to their belief that the wealth "trickles down" to the guys lower down.
Fantasy.<<
Partly, but my customers are generally worth a million plus, some as much as 30 million and they employ various people to do things, like gardeners, cleaners, car valeters, PAs and even things like ironing services, some have a whole army of different agencies earning very decent livings off such people.
The service industries need people with a bit of spare cash so they can waste it on things they could otherwise do themselves.
I aint gonna retire on Barry and Sue from the council estate having their clapped out Escort valeted, no offense to Barry and Sue :-)
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And I thought we'd moved on from the Victorian era ;-)
Note also how these "high net worth" individuals shower their generosity by paying substantially over minimum wage for your/other's services.
Fantasy - many would have you doing it for buttons if they could.
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The people who try and screw down the price are always the professional classes, 9-5 workers who think it doesnt matter how much the person earns so long as they pay as little as possible - one guy wanted me to charge him £20 to do 2 cars and a van, he said he could get the Latvians to do it for that, after 4 years of no price increases, inflation ignored, he comes at me with that.
I told him go for it ( what he thought id miss was that he would have to leave his workshop, therefore not be producing, which would cost him far more than the extra he paid me to do the job at his place ).
My wealthiest customer gave me £50 and a bottle of gin at xmas, another bought me a mag light, beautifully wrapped. Another decided off their own back that £15 for a wash/vac wasnt enough so upped it to £20 a car.
Ive found that the seriously well off are extremely generous to me, sure, they arent offering interest free loans, but they dont hammer down the price, if they forget a booking and I waste my time, they pay me anyways and they treat me extremely well. All they actually have to do is pay the bill, thats all I ask and expect, but the vast majority are far better than that.
The idea that the upper middle class is full of Shylock like characters isnt my experience at all, quite the opposite.
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I fully agree with Stu.
I work in a car dealer that does prestige and a run of the mill make.
It is the real rich that say please and thank you, and pay up with out complaining.
The working and lower middle class will often go away and think about buying parts/ service, and often come back and pay without moaning.
The upper middle, moan, winge, and try knocking you down in price.
Last edited by: swiss tony on Thu 21 Jul 11 at 06:15
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It's called business Tone.
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I'm with Stu and Swiss Tone on rich people.
One example was a court case in which the victim had a lot of valuable items stolen from his big house in a burglary.
The court did its job and the burglar - who answered for a few others as well - got seven years.
After the case, the victim invited me, the CPS, and the officers in the case to the Royal County Hotel in Durham, which is a short walk from the court.
Not only did he buy us all a drink, but he also prevailed upon the hotel to put up an impromptu buffet, so out came the silver salvers laden with sandwiches, crisps and sausage rolls.
Nice touch, I thought.
Poor people don't do things like that - mostly because they have no money. :)
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It's funny talking about the very rich. Countries which don't have a lot of the "very rich" are invariably very poor. Countries with a lot of very rich are invariably well off..
The conditions needed to make a lot of people rich are exactly the conditions needed to make the rest of the population better off.
(and the inverse is true.).
Economics - and especially simple economics - will out.
For proof - see China.
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Crikey Iffy - for some reason that makes me uncomfortable. Just old fashioned, I guess, but the idea that officers of the court and the CPS are having sandwiches on silver salvers with people after they've won their case just doesn't feel right.
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[comment deleted by author]
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 21 Jul 11 at 09:15
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...for some reason that makes me uncomfortable...
I can see why you might think that, but it was no more than a spontaneous - and relatively modest - gesture of thanks from the victim for a job well done.
It would have been bordering on rude to turn him down.
Like it or not, the court is an adversarial system, the police and the CPS set out to secure a conviction.
Those who know the game - which those involved in this case did - follow Kipling's advice and treat triumph and disaster just the same.
Had the burglar walked, we might have had a comiseratory drink with the victim.
It would have been wrong had the judge joined us, and I wouldn't have been entirely comfortable had a few of the jury turned up, although the case had concluded, so no law or court rule would have been broken.
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>> just doesn't feel right.
>>
Just a little bit like politicians hobnobbing with media tycoons, police officers, investigators, advisers?
Presumably anyone involved who was paid from public funds had to declare the hospitality received, and doubtless paid tax on its value in kind? :)
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Freeze immigration now says Rightwinger... - R.P.
