***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 5 *****
Ongoing debate on the current news.
Link to Volume 3
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 00:28
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In reply to BobbyG:
>> Something tells me this country is kaput!
You only just realising this? :-)
>> Surely no way Cameron can avoid the gunfire with this scandal
Trouble is he's probably no better/worse than his predecessors. A lot will get damaged by this. Probably why the investigation did not go too far before - too many worms in the can. It is telling the commissioner has gone. If he's done nothing wrong then why quit. I don't buy the 'it's so nothing detracts from olympic planning etc'... that crap. The investigation and olympics will still happen. But they now need a new commissioner as well.
>> Up here in Scotland where Alex Salmond is always quick to give his opinion on anything,
>> he has suddenly became very quiet.
He's in the same boat as the other leaders IMO... watch this space.
So what will now happen is the war against Libya will escalate and we'll send in ground troops. And maybe a couple more planes .... oh we've done that. Then they hope we forget a lot of this.
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Where's the link to the previous volume? As it's such a fast-moving topic.
sorry now added...:-)
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 17 Jul 11 at 22:26
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Ive taken the view of sitting back and waiting for the dominos to fall, theres so many and its at such a fast pace, its only when the dust is settled any sense will be made of it.
Anyone quitting is guilty, simple as, now is not the time to take any moral high ground for them, bit late for 'taking one for the team'.
Have to wonder quite how far it can go, how many organisations, how many big names.
Facinating spectator sport.
Last edited by: FoR on Sun 17 Jul 11 at 23:48
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>> Facinating spectator sport.
I agree those that resign have some guilt. Like the one in charge of the Dow Jones but was chairman of NI.
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Contagion in the English speaking world and beyond is the next thing, I reckon...
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It's going to be bad now. Might not take down a government but it's bad.
If I had a Panda on PCP I'd want the balloon payment saved for sure ;-)
Seriously I am glad I am not in the same boat as many.
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>> Where's the link to the previous volume?
tinyurl.com/3mz7968
;o)
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Someone pointed out in Volume 3 that the prime minister had 'gone a bit quiet'. Perhaps he had, although my impression was that he was abroad. Anyway everyone goes a bit quiet sometimes. The thing that strikes me is the expression on his face in recent photos. Never seen him looking scared or anxious before.
Others seem to be blathering that all this can of worms is 'a threat to democracy' or, as someone here put it - BobbyG? - the country is kaput.
How on earth do people think democracy works? What do they imagine it contains? Maintaining any system or non-system is dirty endless drudgery, just as it always was. You try to rule a cartload of 60 million monkeys in a world filled with bigger and hungrier groups of primates. Go on, just try it. The way the executive relates to the collective hasn't changed in essence for millennia. People hope for a rupture, a real sea-change, but they are whistling in the wind. It seems our psychology is the problem.
Whether or not it brings down the coalition or lands Tony Blair on the scaffold, this worldwide Digger lynchfest is just a blip. A sizeable one, but a blip. It certainly won't end the tabloid press as we know it or remove the voracious market - us, by and large - for the filth and sinister political rubbish it retails. As for threatening democracy... do me a favour.
Er... yes, Tchah!, that's it.
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An afterthought to give everyone a little frisson: one can't help wondering what other news is being squeezed out by the heavy coverage of the big running story of the moment. The mass media do bang on a bit boringly when there's one of those. After all those weeks the hacks are really going to hate it when the last heads have rolled and will do their best to keep it all going, but all good things must come to an end.
One can only hope there's nothing too nasty on the pending spike... I wonder if the Argentinians are in a position to try a swift Falklands-snatch?
Heh heh...
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: one can't help wondering what other news is being squeezed out by the heavy coverage of the big running story of the moment
Greece and Grmany's approach meaning a BIG crash looks inevitable...Get your money out of property.
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>> Greece and Grmany's approach meaning a BIG crash looks inevitable...Get your money out of property.
In greece yeah. In the UK, buy land, they aint making it any more.
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>>.....the prime minister had 'gone a bit quiet'. Perhaps he had, although my impression was that he was abroad.
>>
It was stated on the news, almost as an aside the the PM was abroad but they were not going to say where for security reasons.
Edit . I now read he is in South Africa on a trade mission.
Last edited by: henry k on Mon 18 Jul 11 at 07:57
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probably gone somewhere dangerous to look decisive.
AC has it right, this is now officially blown out of all proportion, both in the media and on here.
You can understand the other media, the pack attacking one of their injured own, but what's your excuse you lot?
Bring the country down? yeah. right.
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To get a perspective on things that happen in the UK, I always check the foreign press. If its not reported, its clearly not a a big issue.
As Mr Murdoch is omnipresent in many geographies, this is covered extensively in the media thereabouts.
The NY Times has a couple of good articles. Not biased by the political leanings of UK rags.
www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/business/media/for-news-corporation-troubles-that-money-cant-dispel.html?hp
www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/world/europe/18hacking.html?hp
And of course Australia, after all Mr Murdoch is one of an unholy trio of ruthless Aussie businessmen, the others being Alan Bond and Kerry Packer both of whom tripped up leaving Rupert to Rule.
The Australian - a NI title, buries it in its media section.
www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/former-news-international-chief-rebekah-brooks-held-at-scotland-yard/story-e6frg996-1226096750177
And a non NI paper, the Sydney Morning Herald, has it as non headline stuff,
www.smh.com.au/world/former-news-international-chief-bailed-after-surprise-arrest-over-hacking-scandal-20110718-1hki5.html
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How many politicians sleep easy wondering if their pillow talk and cosy deals with any media will get dredged up, could go back years and anyone could get outed...this is fun, enjoy it for what it is cos it won't last.
Keep it up, a blinkered brainwashed populace realising finally for a brief moment that the whole rotten sytem stinks...who do they believe now, the loudest voices are surprisingly quiet at the moment....too late the moment passed, the full five minute attention span timed out.
Enjoy it for it's brief respite from normality, it won't last long, the easily led will soon get back to the important stuff, titillating tittle tattle about celebs and promiscuous slappers (not always in the same sentence), footballers and jordans current car or boyfriend.
Meanwhile as this amusing little circus performs it's ritualised and perfected in front of the mirror shock, outrage and hand wringing voiced in carefully vetted words lest in finest windbag flow some fool lets the truth get in the way.....Real bullets missiles and bombs kill real innocent people in other parts of the world, approved and ordered by our leaders.
Normal service will be resumed as soon as we can whitewash the set.
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>> Someone pointed out in Volume 3 that the prime minister had 'gone a bit quiet'.
>> Perhaps he had, although my impression was that he was abroad.
He is indeed - meeting our esteemed leader Jacob Zuma. It is also Nelson Mandela's birthday today, so maybe 'Call me dave' will pop in for tea and cake?
Sadly, he isn't coming to Cape Town - otherwise I could go and heckle the chap!
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I knew he had gone somewhere dangerous,
I hope he hasn't arranged a taxi tour for Samantha
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Met Police Assistant Commissioner John Yates has resigned as the phone-hacking scandal fall-out continues.
He checked the credentials of Neil Wallis before the Met employed the ex-News of the World executive, arrested last week over hacking allegations.
Mr Yates indicated his intention to resign to the chairman of the Met Police Authority, which was accepted.
Mr Yates's decison to quit comes after Met Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson resigned on Sunday.
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"American police were so wary of the Met Police's cosy links to the media that they would not share information with them, the Daily Beast reports:
The flood of disclosures about close—and almost certainly corrupt—ties between Scotland Yard and British tabloids is not a shock to many senior American law-enforcement officials.
In fact, the FBI, U.S. Customs, and other American law-enforcement agencies have been wary for years about sharing details of some transatlantic criminal investigations for fear they would end up slapped on the front page of News of the World, The Sun, and other newspapers at the heart of the scandal engulfing Rupert Murdoch’s media empire, several U.S. officials tell The Daily Beast.
"
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/phone-hacking/8617707/News-of-the-World-phone-hacking-live.html
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>> I knew he had gone somewhere dangerous,
>>
>> I hope he hasn't arranged a taxi tour for Samantha
Wow, I am doing well with the red gongs today. Someone has a sense of humour failure.
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>> doing well with the red gongs today. Someone has a sense of humour failure.
Apart from nasty people Zeddo, you are my only rival in the red gong stakes and leading by a country mile. I am quite miffed in a way.
Sometimes though you wonder what could be going through people's little heads to make them award these things. The other day for example I got one for posting that Ottilie Patterson had died, briefly saying some nice things about her in a slightly sentimental way. I'm still puzzled by that.
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well at least you have the "most innocuous post" red gong. Rare, in early editions, but many more in circulation in later years.
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I was thinking more of a Bob Danvers-Walker type gong than a medal though.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Danvers-Walker
Maybe I'm getting old.....anyway...
I have often wondered how the press managed to be standing outside a "London Police Station" waiting for some low-life celebrity to be released or arrested - always suspected it was a tip-off, maybe it was more sinister than that.
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"I have often wondered how the press managed to be standing outside a "London Police Station" waiting for some low-life celebrity to be released or arrested - always suspected it was a tip-off, maybe it was more sinister than that."
I remember when the sons of that other crook.. Maxwell - were arrested at about 5am and the press were there.. It was blindingly obvious the police told the Press in advance.. That was the early 1990s..
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...I have often wondered how the press managed to be standing outside a "London Police Station"...
Coppers like the public to see they are out and about nicking people.
I've been on several drugs raids - usually early morning - at the invitation of the police.
Some people may be uncomfortable with the police tipping-off the press about a high profile arrest, but there's nothing sinister in it.
Daft as it may sound, some of the celebrity stories come from the celebrities themselves, although usually indirectly.
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For some of them, any news is good news.
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>> any news is good news.
'There's no such thing as bad publicity', you mean?
There is though. After lavishing it indiscriminately on the innocent and guilty alike for years, certain carphounds are now learning what life can be like outside the charmed circle...
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Starmer to be on the resign list in the further future in my view.
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The story never seems to end :(
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14194623
The whistle blow has been found dead.
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I just saw a headline that NotW has been hacked, leaked emails to follow...
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How many hundreds of years does it take before people learn that telephones and emails are not secure means of communication?
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>> How many hundreds of years does it take before people learn that telephones and emails
>> are not secure means of communication?
Hmm, well the telephone has been around for 135 years and email was invented about 40 years ago
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>> The story never seems to end :(
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14194623
>>
>> The whistle blow has been found dead.
Dr. David Kelly moment?
>>
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There will certainly be some conspiracy theories, justified or otherwise. Dr Kelly was scandalously treated by the Parliamentary Committee and I am uncertain as to the true cause of his death. Medical opinion seemed to be that neither the superficial cuts on his arms nor the pills he may have taken nor the combination of the two could have caused his death.
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So what did medical opinion put his cause of death down to?
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I don't see any Kelly parallels.
The reporter was not a happy camper, and was giving on-the-record interviews about hacking.
He wanted his experiences to be made public, even if the motivation might have been to stick the knife into Coulson.
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I don't know. I don't have access to the inquest papers. The point is that after the inquest, medical people said they disagreed with the findings, asked for another inquest and this was refused.
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A cross-section of fact, fiction and most things in between here, re Dr Kelly.
tinyurl.com/3jg7jpw
It is fair to say that facts are hard to come by and opinions vary!
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Has there been an inquest in the Kelly case ?
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Not as far as i know.
But i thought that when given the pathologists report, most the medical experts who had previously been sceptical were satisfied.
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No. It is a legal requirement that should be one, if the death is "suspicious". The finding, by Lord Hutton's Enquiry (whitewash?) that Dr Kelly took his own life has been accepted and the large number of distinguished medical people who have pressed for a formal inquest have been rebuffed. Som skeletons in the cupboard perhaps? Perhaps not!
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From a procedural and legal point of view, it's most odd that they haven't had one.
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A group of doctors have mounted a long-running campaign for the inquest into Dr Kelly's death to be re-opened, arguing that Lord Hutton's suicide verdict was unsafe.
They complain that Lord Hutton spent only half a day of his 24-day inquiry considering the cause of death and claim there was insufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Dr Kelly killed himself.
"No coroner in the land would have reached a suicide verdict on the evidence which Lord Hutton heard," they say.
It took 20 years to get the disputed verict re the pilots of the Mull of Kintyre Chinook crash to be overturned but it happened.
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....and sadly that bit of news was released on a day when the hacks were gorging on the hacking stuff ?
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9/6/2011 I don't think the hacking thing was quite as hot then as it is now?
Last edited by: Meldrew on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 13:53
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Oh, I picked it up on 13.7. on the BBC website.
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9 June 2011 Last updated at 17:32
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Dr David Kelly: Controversial death examined etc etc
Last edited by: Meldrew on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 14:25
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Murdoch men being questioned right now on BBC 2.
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...From a procedural and legal point of view, it's most odd that they haven't had one...
Quite so.
Much as I dislike conspiracy theories, I cannot see why the coroner's rules - which would call for a full hearing - have not been applied in this case.
If you or I were found with slit wrists there would be an inquest, so there should be one for Kelly.
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I guess there's nothing easier to arrange than an "accidental overdose" by an acknowledged boozer & drug user?
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You're absolutely right iffy.
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The whole of the Hutton Report website, including the report is archived:
www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/index.htm
One of the first inquiries to be covered on the web pretty much as it happened.
The detailed chapter on the cause of death is here:
www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/report/chapter05.htm#a31
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>> If you or I were found with slit wrists there would be an inquest, so
>> there should be one for Kelly.
Up to a point Lord Copper. If you or I were found with slit wrists the circs are unlikley to call for an inquiry before a retired judge.
The conspiracy theorists were going to have a field day whatever.
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...Up to a point Lord Copper. If you or I were found with slit wrists the circs are unlikley to call for an inquiry before a retired judge...
Other inquiries are irrelevant, there should be an inquest.
It is not good enough to say: "This has been kicked around by someone else, so we won't bother."
You could say the same about murder victims - the coppers have been over it, there's been a public trial, and someone's doing life, so we know what happened.
But there is still an inquest.
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www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/com/com_4_0021.pdf
Just as well they redacted who it was from. There are no clues at all above the solid line...
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Looks like Rupert Murdoch is going to claim senility, given his doddery, confused old man act at the moment.
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I'm going to write to The Times - I've heard the first cuckoo !
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Brilliant watching this though isn't it?
Just wonder why someone of that age and means, doesn't go away and do a Hugh Hefner and enjoy the rest of his life rather than put up with this sort of thing!
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>> Brilliant watching this though isn't it?
>>
>> Just wonder why someone of that age and means, doesn't go away and do a
>> Hugh Hefner and enjoy the rest of his life rather than put up with this
>> sort of thing!
he has, his son is supposed to be running it. lord know why they called in the old man, he knows nothing of the day to day.
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>> Just wonder why someone of that age and means, doesn't go away and do a
>> Hugh Hefner and enjoy the rest of his life
I don't think that he is doing too bad a job on that front. Here is a picture of him and his wife from a few weeks ago.
tinyurl.com/6zacqgh
Still, when you have had the power and been involved in such big business for so long, it must be difficult to give it up, and just focus on improving your golf.
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To be fair to Murdoch senior, his interests are vast, beyond the imaginations of most people, so I find it fairly easy to understand that he wouldnt know a great deal of day to day stuff.
I also suspect it would be quite easy to shield alot from him, he is pretty sharp, but he is also 80.
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Just fantastic viewing, have to say, Murdoch senior seems far straighter talking than James who seems to talk in gibberish, he also has a seriously annoying voice, he could be a minister such is his skill at avoiding giving a definitive answer to anything.
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My view exactly, Rupert is a hack of the old school - James hasn't had to work that hard, it would seem. A right sugary, slimy toad.
The questioning in the Home Affairs Committee was far more structured and hard edged, in my opinion.
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 16:03
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Bet you he will have a good drink after this!
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Wow what happened there??
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Attacked with shaving foam? High drama indeed. And the audio feed has gone mad - line 4, the Wilson room, repeated over and over...
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Apparently thats his missus behind him, she was very quick to jump and take a whack at the attacker.
Could maybe teach the plod a thing or two!
How embarrassing for our country!
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Pretty poor show, yes. I loved the British understatement - you just heard someone shout "Outrageous".
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The shaving foam incident was easily the best bit of the afternoon. Priceless!
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A close shave.
Sorry watching it about 30 minutes behind thanks to a phone call and Sky+.
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 17:29
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Rebekah Brooks up next...she used to be married to Grant Mitchell, you know...
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Known as the slapper apparently as she used to hit him.
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My first question for the security of that meeting....How does a punter walk in with a paper plate and a can of shaving foam" assuming he assembled it inside and didn't walk in with a comedy plate of foam !
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Allegedly she found him in a compromising position with a person not of the female gender.
Mind you, Ross Kemp has a face and manner just asking to be slapped!
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>> Mind you, Ross Kemp has a face and manner just asking to be slapped!
He was in the very best episode of Extras though...
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Hes an Ak-tor dont cha know.
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Is it me,. or does anyone else find this all a little be hysterical, and I don;t mean funny.
When you strip it away, all this hysteria is about people dialing a mobile phone, and checking voicemails, where the user hadn't changed the default password.
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As far as I am aware, if you leave the default security code, you cannot access voicemail from another phone. I know when I first had Vodafone I had to set a code to access the voicemail from another phone.
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>> does anyone else find this all a little be hysterical, and I don;t mean funny.
It makes me feel a bit weary too Zeddo, although I'm looking forward to seeing the pie attack on the news this evening.
'The British public during one of its occasional fits of morality' or something like that ... Oscar Wilde? I don't even care. I certainly don't intend to waste the afternoon watching the Murdochs stonewalling an ill-mannered interrogation by posturing politicos.
Still, a nice pieing is always a toe-curling mixture of drama and embarrassment, the sort of thing any TV watcher will enjoy during his five-second attention span. One always hopes the security will freak out and someone will get shot. But I suppose one wouldn't really like that if it happened. What a fickle species we are...
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...does anyone else find this all a little be hysterical, and I don;t mean funny...
Agreed.
The politicians think it's terribly interesting and important, partly because they wrongly think the Press play a big part in which of them gets elected.
It's interesting to journalists, in an internal, trade paper-ish sort of way.
But the wider public?
I wonder about that.
It's the alleged hacking of Milly Dowler's phone, and the possibility of bent coppers, which has given the story some genuine public interest news value.
Although even the line about bent coppers is a bit feeble, taking a few quid for information is hardly the same as being in the pocket of organised criminals.
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>> Although even the line about bent coppers is a bit feeble, taking a few quid
>> for information is hardly the same as being in the pocket of organised criminals.
>>
Maybe it's a good thing that this level of corruption still fuels public outrage....because so it should.
Whilst i'm not convinced there will be all that many...and Rebekah Brooks stated today that in her experience 'most police informants gave their information for free'... it is still right and proper that anyone unearthed dishing out info like that to the Press will at least be sacked and may be prosecuted.
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Everybody seems to be following the same script:
"Didn't happen on my watch; I knew nothing about it; we've always worked to the highest ethical standards; But I'm resigning for the common good (and I've got a nice severance package lined up and I should get a good advance for my memoirs)"
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>> The politicians think it's terribly interesting and important, partly because they wrongly think the Press
>> play a big part in which of them gets elected.
Not wholly wrong Iffy. Murdoch's gone with Labour when they were obviously going to win - 1997 to 2005. His natural instincts though are for the tories; it's quite likely that the Kinnock lightbulb thingy swung the day in 92. While the press reflects public opinion it's the opinion of a segment of society; typically that of the largest minority. The trick Murdoch's people, and even more so the Mail, have perfected is to take that opinion and make it the received perception of the waverers.
But there's another much more important thing. And that's the influence they can have on policy in a 'running' government and on the willingness of back benchers to stand up for causes the press choose to ignore or denigrate. Somebody upthread mentioned the MP exposed for being pictured on Gaydar in his shreddies. I'd wager that was a direct response to Bryant's attempt to either criticise Murdoch's rags or to oppose sometihng they advocated.
The Leveson inquiry will, I believe, expose much. The evidence of Bryant, Tom Watson and others who've 'crossed' NI will resound.
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I find it truly ironic that in the past, my lot were behind the times and were not at all media savvy... to the extent we missed opportunities to 'get our message across' and were always left on the back foot.
It's now gone completely the other way and there's too much mixing with the media.
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...It's now gone completely the other way and there's too much mixing with the media...
Leaving aside the tiny minority of policeman who take money, there are more and more barriers between the press and the police.
When I started, Durham Police, which is one of the smaller forces, didn't have a press office, you had to speak to the police officer involved.
They then gave a serving officer responsibility for press inquiries, so you had to speak to him, although he would usually tell you to speak to who you would have spoken to under the previous arrangement.
They then employed civilian press officers - mostly former journalists - who would attempt to shield the serving coppers from any direct contact with the press.
Nowadays, the stock response from a serving officer is: "You'll have to ask the press office."
It is still possible to build contacts with police officers - I have a few - but it's much harder than it once was.
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Am I the only one who just enjoys seeing Rebekkah Wade on telly?
Yum yum.
Giggity giggity goo.
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>> Am I the only one who just enjoys seeing Rebekkah Wade on telly?
>>
>> Yum yum.
>>
>> Giggity giggity goo.
Horrid ginger minger with vanity, dragged grough a hedge backwards, hair - a bit like a bloke with designer stubble but more of it!
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>>> Am I the only one who just enjoys seeing Rebekkah Wade on telly?
No you're not BBD.
>>> Yum yum.
>>> Giggity giggity goo.
I wouldn't put it quite that way myself. But clever, regular features, fairly lissome lines and that look of collusive blowsiness... what's to dislike? If you don't fancy her a bit there's something wrong with you. She may be a barracuda but who cares?
My heroine of the day and new love is Wendi Deng though. Spirited, athletic and quick as a snake - quick enough to pie the pie guerilla with his own pie - as well as being beautiful, absolutely stone rich and connected worldwide on the highest level.
Top totty comrade. Old Rupe's a lucky man. Deserves it if you ask me after all his hard work.
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She's probably a wife come bodyguard.....she took a flying leap at the phantom custard pier of old London Town.....
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Rebekkah (whose parents couldn't spell well) doesn't seem too clever to me, judging by where she is today plus unemployed. She looks to me like someone auditioning badly as a soap opera extra.
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Unemployed but with 3 million pound pot.
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I doubt she'll be forced to Edit "Prisoner times"
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>They then employed civilian press officers - mostly former journalists -
Ten of the 45 Press Officers at the Met are ex-News International.
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I admit I haven't been following media reports in any detail, so I'm not very knowledgeable about the affair. It keeps being referred to by the vague expression "phone hacking". What does the media mean when it says "phone"? Is it landlines, mobile phones, or what? How is the "hacking" being done?
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Mobiles. By accessing the phones voicemails 'cos the owners were too lazy or too stupid to change their default PINs.
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I've said this before but in my experience on Vodafone you cannot access your voicemail from another phone until you setup a PIN. There isn't a default one (or there never used to be) as such.
More likely people have selected an obvious PIN.
A question that was asked and I don't think got answered - how did they find out the phone numbers? I couldn't hack someone phone without at least knowing their number.
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>> A question that was asked and I don't think got answered - how did they
>> find out the phone numbers? I couldn't hack someone phone without at least knowing their
>> number.
Milly's number was on one of the social networking sites.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 19 Jul 11 at 21:47
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I think it's a recent development, certainly our work Vodafones in the early 2000s had 8888 or 0000 as the default Voicemail access code.
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News of the World Hacking scandal. Vol 4 - rtj70
