It seems to be creeping into the publics mindset, the whole notion of leaving it, whereas before it was just Nigel Farage shouting from the back - I dont think its anything the government or opposition is doing, I think its the EU itself, although perhaps not on purpose, such is its self-belief in its existance, atleast by the eurocrats.
I dont know what to make of it because sometimes I read about how the EU wants even more cash from us and wonder if they are trying to force the issue, or whether they are just insane?
I honestly never imagined it would actually happen, but that people, MPs etc would quietly keep paying the money and mutter under their breath about it, in that great british tradition.
Ive spoken to so very many customers and people I know, many of them 'voters' and by that I mean active voters in the 45-80 age bracket, who openly talk of their distain for it all.
With all these people unemployed, esp public sector cuts to come, will they really continue to support the EU project which wants more money out of the UK at a time when people are loosing their income from that very same source?
It would be a wider view taken for, say the police, to say 'yeah, lets cut more officers so the EU can waste even more money on dubious causes like new buildings'.
I know there is apparently a net gain from the EU, although I cant think why they would cease to trade with us were we not in it, seems unlikely, but where is the tipping point at which it becomes a net loss, are we in too deep now anyway to think of it that way?
I was chatting to someone who works alot on Germany and he said that the Germans arent as keen as all that on it anymore, the public arent as into it as they once were, but on the quiet atm.
I never for a moment ever thought the tide may turn against the EU in this country, but Im starting to wonder if it is indeed forever anymore or whether its just a matter of time.
Whats the room think?
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Politicians are not interested in leaving EU because they know when UK public will kick them they need to seek refuge in EU.
Just look at how Tony Blair was dreaming to be President of EU.
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The economists thought of it as a wonderful, shining, complex new machine that would provide growth and economic stability, with knock-on effects in terms of political stability.
The politicians thought of it as providing a West European economic and political bloc forming a counterweight to the cousins and the communists.
The population couldn't make head or tail of how it was supposed to work (I don't even begin to) but were for it on the whole if left of centre, for Pollyannaish let's-all-be-friends reasons, while those on the right tended to be suspicious for a variety of reasons.
In practice, people have become irritated by what they see as partial rule from Brussels by Europeans who don't like the British, by what they see as a loss of sovereignty even in matters of minor social law and regulation, and by the perception that Britain as a rich country spends more on the EU than it gets out of it. Xenophobia, an acquired characteristic of ours and a very old one, plays a substantial role here.
It's a scrum and a Tower of Babel, far, far too complicated to work in the long run.
One of those things that might look good on paper at first (like communism, fascism or making a fortune by breeding edible frogs in your attic).
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I see the poisonous vipers are hissing and spitting again, back in your sack you Squamata, ponder the looming threat of protectionism and resources, and then consider how you can survive that outside of a powerful trading block.
With the spread of the Chinese serpent, being on your own is not a comfortable place to be.
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>>I see the poisonous vipers are hissing and spitting again, back in your sack you Squamata, ponder the looming threat of protectionism and resources, and then consider how you can survive that outside of a powerful trading block.<<
How about some figures rather than the sort of wordy rubbish that Quentin Letts pushes out?
How much do we put in, whats the net gain etc etc, you seem to be reasonably expert on it all from memory, I presume the figures actually exist?
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How can figures exist for something that hasn't happened yet. But tell you what, you tell me who we trade with when we leave the EU?
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No figures exist for how much we put into the EU and how much we get out???
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we are not talking about life in, you want to leave, and no-one has figures for life outside, or a plan.
Anyway, pointless sedition, we aint leaving in my lifetime.
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5.2 The UKs deficit with the EU
Make-up of Total UK Deficit with EU24, 1997-2005.
In the nine years 1997-2005 inclusive, the UK, in aggregate, paid over £108.4bn to EU institutions & received back £64.4bn, resulting in an aggregate Net Contribution of £44.0bn. Table 1.
In addition, on its trade (imports & exports of goods, services & income) with the other 24 EU member states, the UK, over the 1997-2005 period, recorded an aggregated deficit of £72.5bn. Table 2, column d.
The combined UK deficit with EU24 member states & EU Institutions over the period 1997-2005 was, in aggregate, £116.5bn.
Note that the "pure" UK trade deficit with EU24 member states, having been relatively modest between 1997 & 2002 (there were even surpluses in 1998, 2000 & 2001), has ballooned since 2002, to £26.1bn in 2005 alone.
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Hmm. Okies. So are we winning?
Last edited by: FoR on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 16:15
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No.
Spain and Portugal and Greece are.
If you are looking purely at the money side.
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Ok so if we arent getting money out of it, other than group hugs, what are we getting?
I often hear from euro folk that if we arent in the EU, somehow all trade will stop or thats how it sounds, but does anyone actually know how much trade would stop? Is there a ban on trading outside the EU or something?
Maybe im missing the point of it all, but its such a complex subject, forgive me.
The problem with any questioning of the EU is it tends to get very defensive responses from its fans akin to the ecomentalists when climate change/warming/cooling etc is ever put uner the microscope.
I tend to look at it in plain terms, ie whats in it for us, what is its value, I think you have to because we obviously send alot of cheques over there and at a time when public services are being cut, seems only sensible to ask if its working for us. Problem is many people dont seem to like the question being raised.
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>> I tend to look at it in plain terms, ie whats in it for us,
>> what is its value,
The trouble is, you cant. It don't work on such a simple level.
I am not going into the "the world is not going to be a nice place" scanario again, but think on this one point.
All those who spout an anti eu lets get out manifesto, are the extremists, the nutters and the down right unpleasant.
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>>All those who spout an anti eu lets get out manifesto, are the extremists, the nutters and the down right unpleasant<<
So what your saying is, no matter what we should just go along with whatever happens essentially, there should be no limitations on the european project?
Im not totally against a united states of europe, would make sense if we did away with national governments so that everyone was on the same page, which often seems to be the biggest problem within europe.
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Typical pro-EU spitefulness - categorising those who question the whole ghastly mess as "nutters". What next - racist Nazis?>>
>> All those who spout an anti eu lets get out manifesto, are the extremists, the
>> nutters and the down right unpleasant.
>>
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I wasn't referring to individuals on here but the Politicians,
However as you wanted it..
Roger, you are racist. You cant deny it, you are also a rabid right wing nationalist, again all your past posts on here prove it.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 18:11
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>> Roger, you are racist. You cant deny it, you are also a rabid right wing
>> nationalist, again all your past posts on here prove it.
Actually, I'm not rabid, but I am proud to be both right wing and a Nationalist.
Racist - well, if folk believe, as I do, that the influx of immigrants to this country since the mid 1950s has been nothing but a disaster, then there are many who think likewise, even if they are too cowed by the P.C. lobby to articulate it.
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 18:53
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It does not explain how much trade would stop but as you can see from the graphic a huge chunk of Britain's business is still done within the EU.
Until you have built your other trade partners to a comparible level, why cut your nose of to spite your face ?
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/feb/24/uk-trade-exports-imports#
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>>
>> I often hear from euro folk that if we arent in the EU, somehow all
>> trade will stop or thats how it sounds, but does anyone actually know how much
>> trade would stop? Is there a ban on trading outside the EU or something?
>>
There is no ban, otherwise the Chinese would be in trouble. It's just easier from a variety of commercial and technical points of view to be within the EU if you're trading with it; not sure about the position already mentioned with regard to the EEA.
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>> With the spread of the Chinese serpent, being on your own is not a comfortable place to be.
Vipers, serpents... you haven't been scared by a slow-worm have you Zeddo?
But you are right of course: EU construction was led by the big European countries (with us dragging our feet a bit) when they had realised that they weren't all that big any more and getting relatively smaller. It isn't just the serpent, it's the many-armed god, the coalition of hardwood pirates and narco-lords, and others usually well connected in Europe.
It's too complicated to work in the long run, but no one's about to abandon it (you are right there too). Instead endless tinkering has to be undertaken, far from easy given the tangle of local and national interests, and the ingenious determination with which they are pursued. The danger is that the system becomes ever more complex, cumbersome and 'exploitable' by some, instead of being sensibly reformulated and kept simple enough to function.
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So because alot of our trade is within the EU, if we leave it they will cut us off then and there will be a trade ban of some sort?
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No, but why risk it at the moment when you have a mountain of debt to clear.
You may say there will be no impact and things will carry on, on the other hand the EU might take their ball away and subject the UK to import tarrifs the same as the US etc... which would make importers in the EU look at alternatives and you could lose the lot.
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Its not a certainty, but likely. In the form of trade tarrifs. The yanks do it to the EU all the time.
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Switzerland and Norway do quite well out of the EU, without contributing a nickel or having to kow-tow to Brussels. The UK could do the same and be masters of our own destiny.
It's a bit much when universities are fined for not flying the EU flag. I think the EU is well past its sell by date.
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Switzerland and Norway have not contributed so the EU have not seen a loss, they would if the GB drop into the Swiss bank account went missing.
I'd miss the Euro. I would have to go back to carrying a different currency in each trouser pocket and have nowhere to put my keys.
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A good reason for questioning our membership of the EU is the fact their accounts haven't been approved by the auditors for the last 16 years!
tinyurl.com/6fz9op8
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>> A good reason for questioning our membership of the EU is the fact their accounts
>> haven't been approved by the auditors for the last 16 years!
>>
>> tinyurl.com/6fz9op8
Into what black hole of greasy Eurocrat's back pockets has this whole chunk of our tax money gone?
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There is a huge difference between the accounts of about 650 individuals not being signed off and that the accounts/budget of the combined membership of the EU have not been signed off! The common factor is the presence of large number of sponging shysters in both groups
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The question for me is while the Auditor General is distracted by the £13.9m what is he missing? Smoke and mirrors.
This is only the first year of the audit and it has been refused sign-off.
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 14 Jul 11 at 19:08
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If you mean Northampton, it took a grant from the EU, a contractual condition of which was that it acknowledge this funding by displaying the EU logo. When it failed to comply, the EU withheld a portion of the grant. Not a 'fine' at all.
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Its a difficult one.
I for one have benefited from being a member of the EU by being able to work in France, Germany, Spain and the Netherlands without the need for visas or documents. The Germans have been a bit of a pain with regards paying tax there though, even though HM Govt. took their share at the time and I am certainly not going to pay it twice!
Travel is also much easier than it used to be across countries because of the Schengen Agreement and the provision of emergency medical cover when traveling to other EU countries helps.
Our economies are now so closely tied together with so many of each others peoples living in each country that a War between EU countries seems almost impossible.
The bureaucracy is astonishing though and I sometimes think of what it may be like in a hundred or so years from now. Will be still be winging or will be be proud to be members of a confederation of sovereign states called the United States of Europe?
I am undecided at the moment, but it is still early days yet and I suspect that we would loose more out, than staying in.
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No we will not leave the EU, the single party state, lib lab con, is signed up for the duration.
UKIP the great pretender, lauded by disaffected tories with no party, are doing very nicely out of EU....kerching, hand, feed, bite, don't.
If the EU is so important to people why do they vote for parties who lie to them over referendum and mostly everything else.
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Sir Humphrey's view of Europe
www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Xvy1r4Pm8
Many a true word spoken in jest.
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Lets get out of it,cheap butter and lamb from New Zeeland.Back to pence and shillings no more decimal rubbish
Just a thought.
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>> Lets get out of it,cheap butter and lamb from New Zeeland.Back to pence and shillings
>> no more decimal rubbish
>>
>> Just a thought.
There is no more cheap butter and lamb from New Zealand, its too far away and they are selling it to the mid and far east. Same with Australia.
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.dup post removed.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 15 Jul 11 at 09:03
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Zippy - above - gives a considered argument for staying.
But the bloated Eurocracy and meddling in our internal affairs kills the EU stone dead for me, so I would leave tomorrow, if not sooner.
I don't buy the trade argument, companies and individuals elsewhere that wish to buy our goods and services will do so on merit, as they have always done.
As a compromise, perhaps the EU could be replaced with a simple trade alliance, which I believe is how it started.
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>> As a compromise, perhaps the EU could be replaced with a simple trade alliance, which
>> I believe is how it started.
That was how it was SOLD to the British public in the original vote.
Sadly, many did not realise just what the Treaty of Rome was REALLY all about.
A United States of Europe was always the (undeclared) goal.
You will not be surprised to learn that I voted NO - even back then!
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 15 Jul 11 at 21:12
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Each country to it's own. We WERE well placed to be self sufficient some years ago. With a bit more discipline and a lot less Ponce's sucking us dry we could be doing OK. Too many do gooders and Politically correct "know nothing folk" being listened to. As for more foreigners coming in......well..............
England..................Gorn to Hell in a Handcart........Finished.......un-recoverable.
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Roger, Martin, spot on.
I didn't vote for the EUSSR either, but Mart's right, it's all over bar the shouting...and the counting of loot for the few.
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>> Each country to it's own. We WERE well placed to be self sufficient some years
>> ago.
Funny that, the German U boat blockade nearly brought us to our knees. So did the dockers strike.
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>> >> Each country to it's own. We WERE well placed to be self sufficient some
>> years ago.
>>
>> Funny that, the German U boat blockade nearly brought us to our knees. So did
>> the dockers strike.
>>
Nearly eh!. A miss is as good as a mile! Get tough or die in the morass that is us now. The u-boat blockade failed. The Dockers...a bunch of overpaid, "me me me" Ponce's also failed. Self employment for all and paid on results is the way forward. Stuff those cradle to grave whiners who nappies have to be changed by 'Mummy'.
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We as a country were being supported by lend-lease from the USA. We did not have the machinery or manpower to fight the war on our own and win, though we could have probably averted invasion, in the short term we would not have been able to take the war to the Germans without help.
Without the US, Russian and commonwealth countries, which included African and Indian troops, we would not have had the required manpower. Our code breakers cracked Enigma and American and British warships escorted freight from the Americas to the UK, even before war was declared on the USA.
In time, without the help from outside, the Germans may have built a stronger air force, navy etc and developed their V weapons even further.
I and many others I am sure are in debt to all the service men and women from all nations that fought against the Germans. Without them, it could have been a different outcome.
The war left us as a bankrupt country. We also had one of the worst winters in living memory and had to suffer rationing for a significant period after the war. In fact rationing worsened in part, after the war as bread and potatoes were added to the ration and these were not rationed during the war. Rationing ended in the UK in 1954. In the USA it ended in 1946. In Italy & France it ended in 1947. In Germany it ended in 1949.
We did rebuild, with significant help from the Americans by way of the Marshall Plan and unlike Germany we did not have to repay the aid.
During the war, the UK had to hand over significant assets over to the USA to pay for the goods purchased.
All of the problems we see in this country is not down to the EU. The EU does tend to get blamed for a lot of laws, but then a lot also make sense (ABS, Airbags, flight delay compensation). Its a bit like health and safety rules that were never part of HSE recommendations or rules but actually insurance company requirements or just simple backside covering. Also, the European Court of Human Rights, which is not part of the EU has an impact on our laws. Some good, some bad.
I was too young to vote in the EU referendum but if I had the chance I would have read the Treaty of Rome, it was not a secret document after all and was available to anyone who wanted a copy on request from the local library. Does anyone really believe what politicians say?
Outside the EU:
We are the seventh largest manufacturing country in the world. Much of this is on the back of high tech aerospace and defence, much of which is undertaken with our EU partners in Germany, Spain, France and Italy (as well as NATO partners). Would Airbus and many other industries exist without the EU? (Think of anyone investing in Europe (not the EU) where would the logical choice for a new plant be?)
Each country in the EU has nationalistic tendencies. To suggest otherwise would be madness and rivalry extends to towns and cities in the UK trying to win business, hospitals and new roads for their town at the expense of others. The same thing goes on between the states in the USA and still does. They also have similar problems with laws; state courts and legislators write local laws, some of which are not compatible with the Constitution. Congress also passes laws which individual states and individuals within states do not like, but at the end of the day, most all support the concept of one USA.
Someone once wrote that Europe only had one war in the last century, it was a civil war which was interrupted to recover from the devastation caused in the second decade. Thinking further back in time, didn't the Romans and Napoleon and others want to unite Europe?
I said previously that I had worked in several countries. These were all short term visits, sometimes made with a days notice to review a business proposal. Without the EU the company I worked for would not have been able to offer its product in the countries I visited as they are very specific products which would have required a local branch / company to have been set up and the transfer of many millions which meant we could not do the deal. We were able to operate on the licences we held in the UK because of the free transfer of goods and services. We were also able to rely in standard EU wide legislation. Again when we looked to do this outside of the EU the legal costs quoted were prohibitive. We took and won businesses from local suppliers that could just not compete with our products and about 20 people in the UK got a job of the back of it and so for me, in selfish terms, the EU does work.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 20 Jul 11 at 02:12
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>> Thinking further back in time, didn't the Romans and Napoleon and others want to unite Europe?
Churchill did too.
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>> Churchill did too.
Hitler had another approach to uniting us all too.
At the moment I don't have an issue with the EU (although something needs to happen to spending on MEPs etc) but the problem is the Euro. It has failed because some economies are too weak and a few too strong. Either Germany needs to leave the Euro or Greece, Portugal and Ireland.... but that's not allowed according to Maastricht.
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The problem with the Euro is that it cannot be devalued for a particular country. If Greece for exampled had the Drachma still then that would have been devalued. The PIGS overspent and due to the recession loans were not renewed on the same terms.
Some of the PIGS should be out of the Euro as their economies are not strong enough, alternatively, and as should happen Euro zone budgets, taxes and spending should be set centrally, with local taxes going to local causes.
If all Euro counties shared the debt burden then the problem would reduce. The problem is that this won't happen because of vested state interests (Sir Humphrey) and lack of political will.
Of course all this dickering around just compounds the problem as the markets can smell a wounded animal a mile off.
The Euro zone could help itself by banning the selling of naked credit default swaps which encourage commercial financial institutions to bet against a country and currency and therefore worsening the situation.
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Britain self-sufficient? Hahahahaha.
Not without an influx of loot from conquered states it wasn't.
And the immigrants into the country have probably helped bring the population up to the level it would have been if our nationalist idiots hadnt have a few million men blown to chunks in wars last century.
And how many wars have been fought between EU member states in the past 40 years?
The EU is a necessary set-up to maintain a standing on the world stage (unlike having H-bombs...)
The single currency, however, will only work where the members involved are willing and able to support the less effective areas (ie. in the UK money/investment should to an extent flow from the SE to the poorer regions)
Avoiding trade-protectionism is absolutely vital with our nearest trading partners.
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A lot of companies who provide a lot of jobs, and a lot of prosperity, would not be here in the numbers they are now, if we weren't in the EU.
This is what always makes me chuckle about the BNP's argument in this area. They don't seem to comprehend the simple fact that if even half the inward investment in this country ceased, we wouldn't know what hit us.
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I can see why you are so well informed Roger.
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Leaving the EU, ever? - movilogo
