A very interesting programme, presented by the chap off Dragon's Den, about Britain's manufacturing industry has just been on the telly. If it turns up on Iplayer, it's well worth a watch.
Among other things, the program does deal with a few myths about the state of our manufacturing industry, and talks about the success of sending low skill manufacturing jobs to China.
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Very interesting, but Davies tried to make out that people were swapping low skilled jobs with better paid more demanding jobs because of the shift to China. In reality people are swapping stitching knickers with flipping hamburgers.
Made some very good points though, that is better to specialise in making high margin products than trying to compete on things anybody can make.
As far as I am concerned though China is welcome to make dangerous power supplies and other tat.
Of course China does also make some good quality products too.
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We recently bought some new solid oak bedroom furniture via the Web.
Very nice kit - the bed, chest and side-tables (in OAK, remember) were MADE IN CHINA!
The later addition of a solid oak bookcase (to very, very, nearly match) was made in another far eastern country, maybe Korea, I can't recall.
All were fully assembled, meticulously packed and of superb quality.
Where do they get the oak, I wonder - not natively, surely?
The economics of sourcing the material, making the goods, packing very well & shipping the bulky result to the UK is astonishing.
The bookcase cost £140 delivered to our door, the bed was around£400, the side-tables about £160 each and the large four drawer chest was £350 ish, again all delivered.
How do they do it?
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Most things we buy are made in China...:-(
Virtually impossible to match them or products from areas such as Taiwan, korea etc at affordable prices.
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Shipping is very cheap. With something like an oak cabinet the biggest production cost would be labour. Even if it might cost £30 to ship to the UK, if it costs £100 less to make it is well worth while.
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"Where do they get the oak, I wonder - not natively, surely? "
Mostly from African forests - a lot of it obtained from rather dubious and unsustainable sources.
"How do they do it?"
Most of the cost is labour. Their's is cheap. Ours's is dear.
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>> "How do they do it?"
>>
>> Most of the cost is labour. Their's is cheap. Ours's is dear. legal.
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- - - - - > Made In Britain.
Well I'm orf in a couple of hours to buy some pine for 'the cottage' as I can't afford oak, like the idle rich :)
And it's Made in Cornwall ~ www.lowennaspinefurniture.co.uk/
But, if it doesn't come 'up to scratch', I'll get it from these bods ~ www.pine-oakfurniture.co.uk/c/Home/
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...to buy some pine for 'the cottage' as I can't afford oak, like the idle rich :)...
Nothing wrong with pine, Dog, particularly pieces made locally.
It doesn't have the cachet of oak, but is superior in some applications - bathrooms and kitchens - because of its resistance to water.
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>>Nothing wrong with pine, Dog<<
I quite agree Iffy, but it is easily marked, compared to hardwood, say,
Re: the 'cachet of oak', ... there's oak and there's Oak,
This is the table n' six we bought from the folk who owned this Cottage b4, it's old stuff, quite marked in places,
£750! but, worth every pfennig, in my humbles.
www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/5798936653/in/photostream
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...I quite agree Iffy, but it is easily marked, compared to hardwood, say,..
Dog,
Those marks on your pine furniture are not marks, they are patina - they add to the attractiveness of the piece not detract from it. :)
www.thefreedictionary.com/patina
I've heard of furniture dealers who would use a bunch of keys to add character to a new piece of wooden furniture.
I agree there's oak and oak, but the whole thing is lost on me.
My kitchen table is a clever, but simple, folding one bought from Habitat in Tottenham Court Road in the 1980s.
It is wood with a solid black surface finish, and now has lots of patina.
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>>I've heard of furniture dealers who would use a bunch of keys to add character to a new piece of wooden furniture<<
Yep! - I can well believe that Iffy :)
Tottenham Court Road, now that takes me back a bit!
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>>I quite agree Iffy, but it is easily marked, compared to hardwood, say,<<
but be aware that Balsa is technically a 'hardwood'. And you would not want garden furniture made of that! So do not be seduced by the sheds selling hardwood garden furniture.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochroma_pyramidale
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>>but be aware that Balsa is technically a 'hardwood'<<
Yes, a neighb pointed that out to me some years a'back - amazing!
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...Tottenham Court Road, now that takes me back a bit!...
Thought it might.
In those days, the hi-fi shops tended to be at the southern end, and the furniture shops - Habitat and Heal's - were further up.
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>> This is the table n' six we bought from the folk who owned this Cottage
>> b4, it's old stuff, quite marked in places,
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>> £750! but, worth every pfennig, in my humbles.
>>
>> www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/5798936653/in/photostream
Never mind the table, what about that staircase! :)
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Never mind the table, what about that staircase! :)
How do you get the Zimmer Frame round the corners?
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...Never mind the table, what about that staircase! :)...
Wouldn't want to attempt that after a glass or two of falling down water.
There was a much larger version in a pub in Wigmore Street, in the West End of London.
It had a bench seat underneath, and yes, we did sit there and look up when a good looking lass in a skirt ascended the stairs.
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Yes, well - that staircase ... no idea what it's doing there really - I have used it a few times (to ascend!) but there's a 'proper' staircase down the other end (in the lounge)
The other 'funny' thing about this place is that it has 2 stable doors, the previous owners obviously had some idea of maybe doing B & B, or even self-contained hol accom,
dunno, I'll have to ask them, one day day.
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Gather from reports on Cyclechat that one example of UK success was Brompton Bikes. Still built in a small factory under the M4 near Brentford.
Must catch on I-player.
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...one example of UK success was Brompton Bikes...
I'm sure that's right, but when I bought my Brompton in 2009 the dealer told me they were very unhelpful and unpleasant to deal with.
It was a long-established bike shop in Harrogate, and he stopped selling Brompton shortly afterwards.
I believe the fall-out made a thread or two on the cycle forums.
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>> ...one example of UK success was Brompton Bikes...
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>> I'm sure that's right, but when I bought my Brompton in 2009 the dealer told
>> me they were very unhelpful and unpleasant to deal with.
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>> It was a long-established bike shop in Harrogate, and he stopped selling Brompton shortly afterwards.
I'd heard the odd story along similar lines. They have always been in the position of been able to sell everything the factory could produce.
They do however seem to have opened up a bit recently for example runnug factory open days and getting more involved with the Brompton World Chamionships. Maybe associated with fact that Andrew Ritchie has been joined by outside managers/investors.
Was the bike shop in Harrogate Spa Cycles? Coincidentally I'm just about to contact them in an ongoing search for gear selectors for Mrs B's 1980 vintage Peugeot tourer.
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...Was the bike shop in Harrogate Spa Cycles? Coincidentally I'm just about to contact them in an ongoing search for gear selectors for Mrs B's 1980 vintage Peugeot tourer...
Certainly was, and I would recommend them.
The guy some people complain about is the son of the owner, and he is right wing, self-opinionated, and eager to rant on any topic.
When we met, I thought I was looking in the mirror.
But on the other hand, he and the staff know bikes, particularly tourers, inside out.
So it's just a matter of keeping them focussed on the job in hand, and ignoring all the other cobblers, if you get any.
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I had a cottage in Somerset with a stone spiral staircase in more or less that position which led off the sitting room. Sort of behind the fireplace. There was also a section of the ceiling which could be folded back on hinges like a trap door from one of the bedrooms to allow the passage of large items of furniture. I once heard it decribed rather morbidly as a coffin hatch but I suppose when you think about it, it would be difficult to get a coffin down or indeed up a spiral staircase.
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>> Very interesting, but Davies tried to make out that people were swapping low skilled jobs
>> with better paid more demanding jobs because of the shift to China. In reality people
>> are swapping stitching knickers with flipping hamburgers.
>>
Yes, a very good point.
>> Made some very good points though, that is better to specialise in making high margin
>> products than trying to compete on things anybody can make.
>>
Certainly is, trouble is today's high margin product is often tomorrow's commodity product, and it take slots of money and knowledge to keep at the high margin end of the curve (BMW seem to manage it I guess). During the 2000s my former employer's gross margin went from 40% to 5%, presumably the PC business has gone much the same way.
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>> Certainly is, trouble is today's high margin product is often tomorrow's commodity product,
>> and it take slots of money and knowledge to keep at the high margin end of the curve
Absolutely agree.
In the mid-late 90's, my then employer could sell a 60 page per minute mono laser printer, with a bit of clever controller functionality, for £80k.
Nowadays, the clever controller functionality is redundant for 99.9% of customers, and a 60 ppm mono laser printer can be bought for about £700, not far off the monthly maintenance and service charge that customers were paying on their £80k product back then.
The company thankfully made the strategic decision to get out of hardware as this trend gathered steam. There is no money in electronic hardware any more, unless you can sell enormous quantities, or unless you are in the proprietary / locked down world like, for example Apple, Sun Microsystems or IBM.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 21 Jun 11 at 10:16
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Read an article in a cycling magazine once about a UK cycle manufacturer going over to south east Asia visiting a firm manufacturing bike frames.
The work was being done by children who slept in a compound on site. Working on an earth floor, the only 'protection' the kids had when welding the frames was a piece of cardboard taped to their foreheads.
Apparantly they didn't get the order.
We can't compete with that.
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Every time any of us chooses to purchase a product or service which is absurdly cheap there is an absolute certainty that someone somewhere has been exploited in order for it to be possible for us to do that.
We just have to decide what matters more to us really.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Tue 21 Jun 11 at 10:30
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>> Every time any of us chooses to purchase a product or service which is absurdly cheap there is an absolute certainty that someone somewhere has been exploited in order for it to be possible for us to do that.>>
The problem today is that virtually everyone expects to be able to buy products as cheaply as possible and, what's more, backed up by top class service.
The two are incompatible...:-)
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Absolutely, and in truth most people don't want to think about how they got their "bargain" or in many cases would even care if they did know. They'll justify it to themselves somehow just as slavery and exploitation was justified in our own country in the past.
Economic models of whatever hue simply don't work very well unless someone gains while someone else loses.
We think of ourselves as "civilised" beings. We're anything but really. We're mainly just tribal animals looking out for our own.
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>> Read an article in a cycling magazine once about a UK cycle manufacturer going over
>> to south east Asia visiting a firm manufacturing bike frames.
That's reminded me about a part of the program. Apparently, Brompton are now the biggest bike manufacturer in the UK; they export the majority of their products, and they are hoping that China will be a very large market for them.
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But in the next breath the Brompton exec said that the British origin of the product is crucial, and that his Chinese customers would not want a locally made Brompton.
Over in China, the Berwin suit factory used as another case study looked bright, clean, modern, safe and well run - as you'd expect, given that the company was happy to allow filming there. Big difference, I suspect, between a factory set up by the company it serves and some (not all) locally owned factories to which foreign companies outsource manufacturing to reduce costs.
I enjoyed the programme, although it clearly set out with the aim of showing that Britain dies still make things. Davis cautioned at the end, though, that the British manufacturing sector is only 17% of the size of our trade deficit, and we'd need something like 36,000 Bromptons (companies, not bikes) to export our way to parity.
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Brompton had an early venture into far eastern manufacture with license production in Taiwan by, IIRC, Neobikes. These machines were intended for non UK markets but there were problems with quality etc and the agreement was terminated.
I'm on my second and cannot fault the quality of the frames and the durabilty of the folding mechanism. The original is now 12yo and I've upgraded some stuff on it to match more recent spec but apart from consumables the only bits Ive needed to replace have been a gear change trigger and the seat clamp.
Unlike other manufacturers they don't release a new model every year and with very limited exceptions parts from one of todays bikes are compatible with production back to the mid nineties. There's a bloke who turns up on folding society rides sometimes with an original mark 1 - these have a different frame shape as it took time to develop the tooling for the curved tube used form Mk2 onwards.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 21 Jun 11 at 11:50
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>> That's reminded me about a part of the program. Apparently, Brompton are now the biggest
>> bike manufacturer in the UK
A few years ago they were second to Pashley but I think the latter was bolstered by a contract for Post Office bikes. Might be adding one to their current sales though - Miss B wouldlike a Pashley Princess for University!!
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...Miss B wouldlike a Pashley Princess for University!!...
Very appropriate choice, I can just see Miss B wobbling around the dreaming spires on one of those.
Sadly, she will also need a very good lock, but I'm sure you know all about that.
www.pashley.co.uk/products/princess-sovereign.html
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Watched it on iPlayer last evening. It was indeed very interesting.
It also explained why public usually believe that manufacturing has eroded from UK - because manufacturers went up in higher value chain.
Will look forward for next episode.
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Mrs Beest wanted a Pashley until she talked to her S-in-L about hers. The conversation went something like this.
"I know it looks nice but it really is a pig to ride. It's something people buy for how it looks rather than how it works."
"Oh, like an Aga, you mean?
"Yes, and it must weigh about the same."
Mrs Beest took note and bought a modest but comfortable aluminium Falcon instead, although I doubt its frame was made in the UK. Even the brilliant Islabikes we have for the boys are now built in Thailand.
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Not just the low-tech jobs moving:
"Ryanair is reported to be considering leaving Boeing to renew its fleet, but the Irish airline is not turning to European manufacturer Airbus. Instead it is intending to help Chinese company COMAC to develop the C919 plane, which the airline says will allow it to reduce ticket prices"
If you worry about Chinese cars!!
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I know a retired airline pilot who won't fly with Ryanair!
He's not convinced about their fleet maintenance, although, to be fair, their safety record is fine.
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It would cost Ryanair a fortune to leave Boeing because it would mean losing the economies of scale of a one-type fleet. But they don't want Boeing to get too comfortable, so from time to time they put out stories like this to keep them eager to please. A few years ago Boeing wouldn't give them the discount they wanted on some new 737s so O'Leary put out an advert offering to buy nearly-new planes from other airlines instead. It was a bluff but it brought Boeing to heel. And it gets Ryanair onto the front pages, which is what O'Leary really likes.
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>> I know a retired airline pilot who won't fly with Ryanair!
>> He's not convinced about their fleet maintenance, although, to be fair, their safety record is
>> fine.
They had a couple of incidents serious enough to make the accidnet investigators buletin one at Milan and another at Tampere in Finland. I think lessons were learned - mostly about compliance with operating procedures.
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Their original fleet of ancient 737 200s were bought from an airline offloading them because they were becoming too costly to maintain......
I wouldn't give O'Leary a penny of my money on principle, so I can't comment any further on the Ryanair experience.
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I flew Jet2 once. (Nasty plastic seats)
The scary bit was that the labelling on the air vents and light switches was also in an oriental script as well as English.
It made me wonder which Far Eastern, or Chinese, airline had offloaded the 'planes!
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They were from oz, so may have been for their passengers in that area, so might have been Malay, Chinese or Japanese.
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>> Their original fleet of ancient 737 200s were bought from an airline offloading them because
>> they were becoming too costly to maintain......
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>> I wouldn't give O'Leary a penny of my money on principle,
Which principle is that?
I can't comment
>> any further on the Ryanair experience.
>>
I suggest that what you mean is that you can, but you won't. Why not?
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It would take at least a decade before any Chinese plane would be trusted enough anyway. That said there needs to be some competition, because Airbus and Boeing have the mid to large aircraft market nearly all for them selves.
You will not catch me on a Chinese plane until they can prove they are safe. Their operating system will probably fail mid air because it is pirated.
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Until they do you won't have the choice, Rats - just as you're not (yet) allowed to fly on a Boeing 787. That's what all those thousands of hours of airworthiness testing are for. You're at far more risk getting [maiden aunted] in Manchester - which you do voluntarily every weekend - than you ever will be on an airliner.
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There's a precedent already for new national entrants to the airliner market - Brazil. Started with basic commuter planes like the Bandeirante in the eighties and progressed through small jets to planes the size of the original 737 or DC-9.
Their 80-100 seater jets now fly in the colours of BA.
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"Their original fleet of ancient 737 200s were bought from an airline offloading them because they were becoming too costly to maintain."
And all Ryanair's older aircraft have now been replaced
Currently Ryanair actually has one of the newest aircraft fleets in the world. You may or may not like the low cost model or Mr O'Leary but his is a highly successful company giving the people what they want i.e. cheap travel. Plenty of competitors if you don't like them but they all fly older aircraft.
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Av age of Ryanair fleet is 2.5 years, Av age of Easyjet fleet is 2.3 years
Ryanair wont end up with an Airbus fleet - they dont want his business
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And why would Airbus not want to sell their aircraft to on of the worlds few profitable airlines?
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Beacuse he won't pay them enough to make a profit, I imagine.
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Well of course no company wants unprofitable business. MikeyB seemed to imply that Airbus didn't want his business full stop.
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Ryanair usually upgrade their fleet when the likes of Boeing are desperate for business. They now have a fairly new fleet so mass upgrades make no sense.
Never flown Ryanair but planned to 5 year ago and couldn't. Tried to cancel but not possible (I claimed on insurance). Bottom line was you might still travel. I told them to resell the tickets and I didn't care about a refund.... still wouldn't cancel. They said I might still turn up... which is why I wanted to cancel.... all those waiting for the final call for us potentially (online checkin too and had to not go).
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>> Well of course no company wants unprofitable business. MikeyB seemed to imply that Airbus didn't
>> want his business full stop.
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O'leary has unrealistic expectations of what he can get an aircraft for. The A320 sells well and the assembly lines are at capacity with an order book running out for many years. Why sell to him at a small margin when other operators will pay more (and are probably easier to deal with)
I recall a comment from John Leahy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Leahy_%28executive%29 stating that the A320 was a premium product and O'leary wanted that premium product at a budget price
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>> I recall a comment from John Leahy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Leahy_%28executive%29 stating that the A320 was a premium
>> product and O'leary wanted that premium product at a budget price
The A320 sells on running costs, not because its a premium product. You can buy a basic A320 Airplane and kit it out cheaply Ala Ryan Air / Easy Jet. Seats that dont recline, thin padding, no entertainment, no galley, no first class, cram the seats in.
The cheap airline philosophy is based on a single type of plane. Mix your fleet and your costs go up.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 27 Jun 11 at 21:01
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>> >> I recall a comment from John Leahy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Leahy_%28executive%29 stating that the A320 was a
>> premium
>> >> product and O'leary wanted that premium product at a budget price
>>
>> The A320 sells on running costs, not because its a premium product. You can buy
>> a basic A320 Airplane and kit it out cheaply Ala Ryan Air / Easy Jet.
>> Seats that dont recline, thin padding, no entertainment, no galley, no first class, cram the
>> seats in.
>>
>> The cheap airline philosophy is based on a single type of plane. Mix your fleet
>> and your costs go up.
>>
Spot on - and that was Leahy's point - the more fuel efficient, slighty wider aircraft is the "Premium" over 737 and worth paying extra upfront for
Most of the interior such as seats, and IFE is "buyer furnished equipment" - Airbus just sell you the airframe and you can spec it as you wish
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I've just watched this. Fairly unremarkable point of view, but some interesting viewing, including a little interview with the perfectionist Ron Dennis at the science fiction McLaren factory and the story of a suit manufacturer in Leeds that I remember doing business with in the 1980s (their manufacturing is now in China and Hungary).
Noting that it is a short series of three programmes, I shall be watching the next instalment on Monday night at 9pm.
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I flew to and from Rhodes with Ryanair this last week (that does make sense !) - It was part of a package for what was a very decent deal from QWERTY Travel. The experience wasn't bad. We had cause to contact RyanAir by phone - sadly their "wherever" call centre was staffed by second language English speakers which no doubt ratcheted the revenue up a bit for them....
1x15kg suitcase cost 40 odd quid, we could have walked on the plane in Liverpool but had to queue for bag-drop. The plane was er..basic but all the important bits were present and the flight was OK - a harder landing in Rhodes (and some sideslipping) than I've experienced for a long time (Malta 2001) but at least it was mirrored on the way back with an equally hard bump in Liverpool. The pilot actually pulled some pretty hard turns on the way out, one enough to make us dizzy through
Planes were remarkably clean for a quick turn around of less than an hour, staff were as good as anywhere (apart maybe from long-haul scheduled flights) - all in all a good experience.
Interior design seems to be sponsored by Citizen's Advice Bureau !
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>>a harder landing in Rhodes (and some sideslipping) than I've experienced for a long time (Malta 2001) but at least it was mirrored on the way back with an equally hard bump in Liverpool.
Well you know the adage – a good landing is when everybody can walk off the plane, and a very good one is when they can use the plane again.
There’s much to be said for a firm landing, according to my commercial pilot friend. Better braking, less chance of aquaplaning on a wet runway, and getting it down with maximum runaway remaining. Ryanair may well prefer their pilots to err on the firm side. Perhaps Alfa Floor will give us the professional view.
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A landing is nothing more than a controlled crash. Tho I think its now called a "terrain aircraft interference"
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Made In Britain - RattleandSmoke
