As the title says, what speed will a bog standard passenger jet be doing just before it touches down?
Was passing Glasgow Airport today just as one was coming down and I could almost have been convinced that I was travelling faster and I was only doing 50mph!
The plane looked as if it was stationary!
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Depends on the type (obviously!), weight, and wind.
For the Airbus A320, a typical approach speed is about 140 knots (~160mph). An empty A319 will be artificially limited to an absolute minimum of about 115 knots (~130mph) for various aerodynamic reasons which I doubt you'd be interested in!
HTH.
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We'll drop you onto the runway in your Altea at plane landing speed, then you will see how fast it feels.
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It's an optical illusion I reckon, given the size and altitude of the thing...?
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>>The plane looked as if it was stationary!>>
It's an illusion - the speed is well into three figures but depends on various factors such as available flaps, remaining fuel levels, weight etc.
I used to travel in chartered aircraft a great deal at one time, especially 1-11s, on which there were comparatively few passengers. On takeoff and landing we were usually asked to spread ourselves around the plane to balance it, but once airborne we could sit where we wished.
A Jumbo (747) is doing around 200mph when it takes off and probably not far short of that when landing yet, ironically, the 1-11s always seem to land at a furious speed, probably due to the "small" wings at the rear. On the other hand a 146 landed at a gentle pace after being slowed quite rapidly in the air by the pilot on approach to the runway. We used to joke the brakes had been put on...
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Indeed they had. Air brakes to be precise
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>>Indeed they had>>
You mean they don't have them anymore?..:-)
I presumed it was a similar move to slowing a plane down once on the runway.
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The 146 was specifically designed to operate from short runways and had a large 'petal' type airbrake under the tail. The Fokker 70/100 is similarly equipped.
Pilots certainly seemed to use it to slough off excess speed in the last bit of the approach.
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Actually a plane landing, until it touches the ground, is quite closely analogous to a large bird - a swan say - landing on water. The plane glides down more or less with just enough engine thrust to stay above stall speed, opens its various flaps and slots - much like a bird spreading its wing feathers to slow down and land, and just before touchdown shuts off all engine power and drops its tail a bit so that the main wing bogies touch first, followed by the nose bogie (irrelevant schoolboy snigger). When it's done properly without any dodgy side wind, as a passenger you don't even feel the bogies touching down.
Despite masses of huge carbon disc brakes though, the thing can't slow down quickly enough not to crash off the end of the runway without the terrifying Heath Robinson device of reverse thrust. You feel that all right, and to me it quite often feels a bit fraught. But it only lasts a few seconds until the thing's doing about 50.
I thought airliners landed at about 150mph and took off at about 220. They must vary though according to type and load. And as others have pointed out, the real factor is airspeed, not ground speed. Land an Airbus into the teeth of a steady 100mph gale and you won't even need reverse thrust to slow down.
Very strong sidewinds are a real hazard though.
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Armel Coussine said:
>> Actually a plane landing, until it touches the ground, is quite closely analogous to a
>> large bird - a swan say - landing on water.
A swan taking off or landing is quite a sight due to the large size of the bird. They often crash land, or at least touch down in a less than elegant fashion. I find it impressive when a small group takes off nearby and passes overhead. They seem to struggle to get airborne.
Of course given that I would watch them near Slough, it's possible they are weighed down by all the beer and pizza, and lack muscle from sitting in front of the telly all day.
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I think a swan is very near the theoretical weight limit for a flying bird. When taking off they often use their feet to "run" on the water presumably give them some extra airspeed.
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Swans also have the same trouble flying boats did, - unsticking from the water.
A flying boat needed a wave to kick some air under the hull, loose the "stiction" and the drag of water,
Same with swans but they have the added complication, in that they are heavy with water, so some of that needs to drain off before they fly.
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I've often noticed that they struggled to get off the step Zero - the advantage they hold was in the eye of their designer....! ;-)
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A really wonderful slow motion video of swans taking off and landing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNtPK-F3aus&feature=related
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The swan was designed by comittee.
Still the only bird in the air that looks like concorde tho! and for that you gotta love it.
Despite being nasty bad tempered brutes.
I was at Polebrooke in the midlands this week. I was lucky to be standing under a Red kite that was slowly circling around, at one time about 15 feet above my head. So close I could see its beady little eyes at me. I doubt it flapped a wing for about 15 mintues and must have covered about two miles.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 22:38
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My Cocker used to sort of tease them, he happened across a nest on one of his "nature rambles" recently, not a pretty sight, swan chasing a dog....especially as he ran to me for moral support...!
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FiFi is terrified of them and wont go near them.
Unless of course someone is feeding them. We get pretty brave at the sight of bread,
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Alf has the heart of a lion but his legs are closer to the lion from the Wizard of Oz...
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A tale, not at all racist but factual.
I have been teaching FiFi over the years to be brave. Its hard work because the raw talent is just not there. But we have got to the stage where she can sound really ferocious if someone knocks at the door*. Its really rather good.
Alas the door has to be opened, so she will wait till one of us does, and then nervously peep round the door, tail down, ears down, eyes to the ground.
One day a black guy from TNT knocked on the door, heard this row and backed away from the door as it was opened. Black and Asian people are usually scared of dogs, and it shows. Fifi picked up on this, and of course became brave and advanced round the door. The black guy backed away his eyes white and wide open, and of course this made Fifi braver. Ears up, Tail up, head high in the sky - Growl growl. All bluster of course.
In the end I had to grab her collar and pull her back behind the door with her spitting and growling at the "intruder"
So of course we now check when the door is opened to see if its a black or asian guy!
* Wont be brave if no-one is at home, wont make a murmur if somone knocks at the door,
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>> The swan was designed by comittee.
>>
>> Still the only bird in the air that looks like concorde tho! and for that you gotta love it.
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>> Despite being nasty bad tempered brutes.
I happened to be at The Swannery at Abbotsbury on Sunday.
Only one swan showed his temper but he was close to a nesting female.
All the other singles on their nests seemed to ignore us humans even though we were inches away from them.
The warden explained that the hundreds there do not usually squabble but they do revert to type when they are elsewhere - most odd behaviour.
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Just curious... but how common are black swans in the UK? I know it's thread drift time but don't we like that here or something?
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there are a few wild black swans at Abbotsbury
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Saw one once at Bowness.... never seen one in the Lake District since.
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>>Still the only bird in the air that looks like concorde tho!<<
I`ve never seen a Swan with a delta wing!! ;-)
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I saw a racing eight at full tilt run over a swan on the Thames at Runnymede once. With the boat moving at running speed, and all four oars on that side in the process of 'coming forward', effectively multiplying that speed perhaps three times, and all feathered - i.e. blades horizontal to reduce air resistance and slice anything in the way.
The swan, facing the oars head up, ducked separately under each oar and stuck its head up again between them, not all the way though. The speed of that undulating movement was incredible, as fast as the eye could follow. I was sure the bird would be a goner but it was merely flustered and annoyed. Those elegant necks are far from fragile.
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Great plane the 146, wonderfully soft landing due to large suspension travel.
Higher landing speed than you think tho.
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And no reverse thrust. I bet Alfa Floor is having a chuckle at our amature observations.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 16:44
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Me and SWMBO went up in a little Piper Cherokee this week, landing speed was about 80 knots, for comparison purposes.
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Other less pleasant feature, particularly of the 146, mentioned here. You can fly but don't inhale! Really only a pilot problem than a passemger one.
www.aerotoxic.org/index.php/news-and-articles/551-toxins-in-the-cabin-pilots-raise-the-alarm
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I remember reading somewhere that an old Swordfish biplane would just about take off from stationary in a gale, ie its stall speed was something like 80 mph. That's about as slow as a plane will go, I think.
I was once a passenger in a small 2-seater plane, flying from a dilapidated WW II runway in Norfolk. Top speed was 150 mph, and it needed to be doing 100 mph to lift off. The noise was tremendous, and taking off was like doing 100 in an old mini down a rutted track, hoping that we were going to clear the hedge at the far end.
Landing was more frightening, as the wind had got up and was now at right angles to the runway. The pilot explained that the temptation was to go too slowly.
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Their used to be a Fiesler Storch on the display circuit. The Storch (Stork) was designed for communications including 'clandestine' landings in fields; it had huge flaps and a very low stall speed.
It's party trick in a stiff breeze was to fly backwards along the disply line. I beleive the Westalnd Lysander could do the same.
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The Stork was not pretty! I think the Lysander was bigger and carried more but was used for the same clandestine missions,
tinyurl.com/6ctxf97
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 17:22
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Bromptonaut: Civil service standards ain't wot they used to be, innit?
Their/there, beleive/believe, above; and even loose/lose twice and a mystery "there" ( perspective there prohibition ) here!
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=6518&m=144893
Last edited by: John H on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 17:28
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Your a DH JH.
Yeah, that red gong is mine.
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>> Bromptonaut: Civil service standards ain't wot they used to be, innit?
Posts here are tryped too fast on a laplop!!
Professionally I'm an operational manager. My business is budgets, buildings,people and events. Advice to ministers or even quangos in perfect English is drafted by bright folks who went to university.
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So, while on this subject, I have no idea how the pilot steers the machine when moving slowly around at the airport.
Is there a little steering wheel attached to the nose wheel by a long shaft straight down from the pilot's seat ? ( Like one of those little plastic buses that toddlers sit on and push around with their feet ) and is the craft propelled by it's own thrust as it moves towards the terminal or does it have a small motor powering the wheels ?
Probably silly-ass questions but It's something I've wondered about for years.
Ted
Last edited by: Ted on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 17:34
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at speed on the ground, the aircraft is still effectively flying and uses its aerodynamic surfaces - rudder essentially I suppose - to steer, or rather to stay pointing dead straight down the runway. Once it is trundling along at 50 or less, the nose bogie steers it. But it can only be a powered system. One also supposes (but I certainly don't know!) that the control wheel or stick doubles as a steering wheel under these circumstances.
And yes, the plane is propelled on the ground by the thrust of its main engines. None of its 18 or 20 wheels are driven.
Landing and taking off are the two high-risk moments in flying, where the pilot earns his money and our rather fingers-crossed respect. The rest of the time he might as well be asleep and let the thing fly itself on cruise control. In fact he quite often is if one is to believe all one hears...
:o}
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 17:46
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Nose wheel is steered by means of a small tiller to the left of the control column. Here is a picture of a the tiller in a 747.
www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2008/a08q0171/images/a08q0171_photo_2.jpg
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and you can use asymmetric thrust
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Stuartli - I would almost have thought we worked at the same place - we used to have a 1-11 private charter to the south of France which was later changed to a 146, and then a 319.
I liked the 146. Why are there 4 engines on a 146........
Because there wasnt room for 6!
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>> Stuartli - I would almost have thought we worked at the same place - we used to have a 1-11 private charter to the south of France which was later changed to a 146, and then a 319.>>
No, not working in the sense you mean (BAe?). I presume you mean Toulouse, where I have been on occasions, but in a MacDonald 87 (or 88?) which are very similar to 1-11s.
I recall on one occasion (it also happened at Granada airport) the pilot had to abort takeoff due to an unexpected military aircraft manoeuvre..:-) As you will know civil and military aircraft use of airports is quite common in Europe and the latter seem to take priority.
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>> and you can use asymmetric thrust
Yes. I've noticed that, now you remind me Zero.
On civil/military use, once got out of an old turboprop Ilyushin or a Hercules - I forget which - at an airstrip well down in the Sahara, and was standing with others in the blazing sun there (no buildings to speak of, just waiting trucks) and noticed that the strip was unnecessarily long for the trundling plane I had been in which hardly needed half of it.
At that moment a brace of MiG 21s or 23s, I wouldn't know which, in elegant matt sand camouflage, appeared out of nowhere side by side and whistled down the runway at terrific speed, a dramatic, beautiful and evil spectacle that stirred my heart. They didn't come back but just disappeared behind a berm and it was as if they had never existed.
Come to think of it heavies came down the plane and made everyone draw the curtains some time before landing. Naturally one tried to peep but no one had the bottle to wave a camera about. From the ground you couldn't see a thing, but from above it was apparent that there were various installations. Of course commonsense would have told one they were there. But hacks are nothing if not curious.
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>> Nose wheel is steered by means of a small tiller to the left of the control column. Here is a picture of a the tiller in a 747.
Thank you CGN. I didn't know that.
Worse than a Citroen SM.
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>> So, while on this subject, I have no idea how the pilot steers the machine
>> when moving slowly around at the airport.
>>
On the aforementioned little Piper SWMBO used the rudder pedals to steer on the ground, they rotate the nose wheel as well as moving the rudder.
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Different ways of steering. Nosewheel steering primary method, followed by differential braking (each rudder pedal brakes one side of the aircraft). Differential thrust not used for steering, but is helpful in a sharp, slow turn.
In the A320, at least, each pilot has a small tiller wheel which sits just forward of the sidestick. It's electrically linked to the BSCIU (Brake and Steering Control and Interface Unit) and the nosewheel is turned appropriately. The deflection is limited by speed and blended out from ~100 degrees of turn at low speed to zero.
Photo:
www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2008/a08q0171/images/a08q0171_photo_4.jpg
The rudder pedals are linked to the same unit, and at low speeds can command up to 25 degrees of turn. Useful in a straight line if you want to take your hands off the controls, and obviously on the take-off run when your hand is on the sidestick, not the tiller.
At higher speeds, the rudder itself is the primary source for steering the aircraft through purely aerodynamic means.
Cheaper and dodgier places *cough* 737 *cough* have a mechanical link between the brakes / steering / tiller etc.
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The mention of transport planes reminded me that these, especially those huge Russian ones (an awesome sight) need surprisingly short takeoff and landing runways in view of their size and the weight they can be transporting.
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Designed for one purpose only, moving military kit into hastily prepared or bomb damaged airfields...
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On the commute back from Bath to Reading on the train, it's not unusual to see Hercules buzzing around the countryside between Chippenham and Swindon. They look like they're going slowly, but they easily overtake the (120mph) train.
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I was overtaken by a Hercules on the way down the A5 through the Ogwen Valley once - he must have been legging it !
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So what's that Hercules all about? It's up there a lot, just going round and round... I've always assumed it's training of some sort.
Closer to teh original topic, but still off it - I recall landing at Schipol one time and we must have been on the outside of the airfield, with a pilot who was on a promise. We taxied at absolute breakneck speed for a good 10 minutes (or so it felt). I've never taxied so fast before or since.
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>> So what's that Hercules all about? It's up there a lot, just going round and
>> round...
>>
I think the RAF have more than one of them. :-)
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It cant find a parking space.
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Just watched coverage of the TT, several riders managed 130 mph laps which implies 180 mph in places. The camera helicopter couldn't keep up with them!
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>> Just watched coverage of the TT, several riders managed 130 mph laps which implies 180
>> mph in places. The camera helicopter couldn't keep up with them!
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Try over 200mph in places......
watch a lap with Guy Martin from a couple of years ago.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVXc29ZgutI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFUYIH2Ttzk&feature=related
Loads of bottle or totally mad?
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Bottle, engineering, properly maintained surfaces - mad ? No.
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>> Bottle, engineering, properly maintained surfaces - mad ? No.
Drain covers, kerbs, road signs, walls,
TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY TWO dead riders.
Yes its mad. By any measure of the term. Only two this year, tho so thats not too bad now is it.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 21:54
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A very small corner of the kingdom where H&S takes a back seat.....
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Maybe, but dont make it sound like its not risky. you ccant defend 232 deaths.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 22:07
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The thing Z, is that the racers KNOW the risks.
In fact, many don't book a return ferry ticket.
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Yeah, well one day a bike is going to launch into the crowd and kill them. I am pretty sure they booked a return ticket.
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I will admit that is my worry too.
But, there again the spectators also know the risks.
As does most people who use motorcycles.
Zero, I know only too well the sadness bought about by a death due to both motorcycles, and cars.
Whilst one death is one to many, as I have said, these people know the risks, and are willing to take them - as I do, myself.
Every day on the way to work on my bike, I pass the place that a good friend of mine lost his life on his bike.
He wouldn't have wanted me not to ride.
The deaths at the TT also play on my heart, more than I'd guess any other member of the forum - but I still would hate to see the TT banned.
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>> TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY TWO dead riders.
>>
100 years ago (27th June 1911) Victor John Surridge crashed at Glen Helen.
He was the 1st fatality on the Isle of Man TT Mountain Course and the first death on the Island of a person in an automotive accident.
R.I.P. Victor, and all that sadly followed (and are still following) in you tragic shoes.
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What coverage is there of the TT in the coming week.
Last edited by: Martin Devon on Sun 5 Jun 11 at 21:47
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iTV4 - just been watching the sidecar racing.....now that is something else...!
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Should be on the +1 version in ten minutes. Coverage has been pretty good in recent years. There is also Guy Martin's film TT3D on general release...!
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Tony Pond piloted a Rover 827 Vitesse in 1990 to became the first production car and driver to average more than 100 mph around the island's TT circuit. Awesome feat.
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The butcher's bill is regrettable, but I love the pure form of racing. The ten second start intervals means everyone's going as fast as they can, not just holding up whoever's behind.
What's the comparable fatality figures like in circuit racing, I wonder?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6noOET7Eik
Tony Pond.
In the words of Max Boyce....."I know 'cos I was there"
Last edited by: Pugugly on Mon 6 Jun 11 at 08:24
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Looks nice from the side the pre facelift 800 hatch, not a great handler though.
An ex boss of mine had a red 827 just like that, he pulled up at the cinema car park once, saw someone he knew, got out to have a chat, went into the cinema and came back two hous later to find the car still idleing away.
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He tried that feat two years earlier and didnt make it.
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6noOET7Eik
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>> Tony Pond.
>>
>> In the words of Max Boyce....."I know 'cos I was there"
And now, freshly broken
www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/events/2011-06/impreza-iom/
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>> Great plane the 146, wonderfully soft landing due to large suspension travel. Higher landing speed than you think tho.>>
From memory, one of the quietest jets I used to fly in.
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Speed of plane on touching down - Fursty Ferret
