...and towards the end of the clip it does say it's only temporary.
Interesting that rail freight has increased so much - up 60% in 10 years I think they say.
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I was just about to post this as well.
Tho the link from that original silver "deltic" to the one being used is a bit tenuous, as they are not the same by a long way.
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>>
>> Tho the link from that original silver "deltic" to the one being used is a
>> bit tenuous, as they are not the same by a long way.
>>
Deltic is the engine config, they are the same in that regard.
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>>
>> >>
>> >> Tho the link from that original silver "deltic" to the one being used is
>> a
>> >> bit tenuous, as they are not the same by a long way.
>> >>
>>
>> Deltic is the engine config, they are the same in that regard.
>>
Mechanically I don't think there was much difference between the demonstrator and the production Deltics; the former was built with an eye on the export market, hence the girt big headlight for example, wheareas the 22 production locos were built by EE to BR spec.
Using a Deltic to haul a freight is like using an Aston Martin to tow a caravan (as seen on youtube...), still the sound effects on some of the recent videos of the Deltic are pretty good.
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>> Using a Deltic to haul a freight is like using an Aston Martin to tow
>> a caravan (as seen on youtube...)
Yes, I always think of the Deltic as an 'exotic`diesel.
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>> >> Using a Deltic to haul a freight is like using an Aston Martin to
>> tow
>> >> a caravan (as seen on youtube...)
>>
>> Yes, I always think of the Deltic as an 'exotic`diesel.
>>
I bet the fitters who had to keep them running into the eighties would agree!
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>> Yes, I always think of the Deltic as an 'exotic`diesel.
2 x 2-stroke diesel engines with a total of 36 cylinders, 72 pistons and six crankshafts between them is a good start towards exotic. And of course they are diesel electric with DC generators and traction motors. I thought this was just about efficiency, but apparently it was difficult to make mechanical gearboxes reliable with all those horsepowers.
The only bit missing is turbocharging.
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>>
>> The only bit missing is turbocharging.
>>
Yeah. most of the more straightforward powerplants used in contemporaneous loco designs were intercooled turbos, but the Deltic had enough power/complication without one.
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>>. And of course they are diesel
>> electric with DC generators and traction motors. I thought this was just about efficiency, >> but apparently it was difficult to make mechanical gearboxes reliable with all those >> horsepowers.
>>
In order to get 2000hp + from engine to rails you either had to use this generator + electric motors configuration or use the hydraulic transmission approach used in the Westerns etc., which I've always assumed is pretty much like an old school car automatic gearbox only bigger.
I don't think things have changed much 50 years on for that matter.
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>>
>> I don't think things have changed much 50 years on for that matter.
>>
Forgot about the Fell diesel prototype which did try different transmission:-
www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxfell.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_10100
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>> Forgot about the Fell diesel prototype which did try different transmission:-
>>
The Manchester South District railway was used for testing oddball locos between Derby and Manchester.
I have a photo of the Fell on the line somewhere in my collection.
Meanwhile, a different sort of traction...The Beyer Ljungstrom condensing turbine locomotive passing the end of our garden in 1926......Now the new Metrolink line.
s479.photobucket.com/albums/rr152/1400ted/bb/?action=view¤t=bl081.jpg
No, I didn't take the picture !
Ted
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>> Meanwhile, a different sort of traction...The Beyer Ljungstrom condensing turbine locomotive passing the end of
>> our garden in 1926......Now the new Metrolink line.
>>
>> s479.photobucket.com/albums/rr152/1400ted/bb/?action=view¤t=bl081.jpg
>>
>> No, I didn't take the picture !
>>
>> Ted
>>
cor, now that's a bit different, cheers.
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and probably nor will it while you have steel traction wheels on steel rails.
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>>
>> The only bit missing is turbocharging.
>>
ISTR they had Rootes blowers (superchargers) fitted.
Just checked and they did; the "Baby Deltic" class 23's were turbocharged.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 30 May 11 at 19:58
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Fantastic - nice to see one working again. I wonder how much the owner bought it for?
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Some are still in use, hauling tourist trains in Scotland. Sensationally efficient engine.
www.royalscotsgrey.com/index.php
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I know the video states that they were the most powerful locomotive, but that was back in the fifties. How do they compare power-wise to todays modern loco`s?
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I think the ehgine number reflects the power classification. ( or did ) Thus a class 47 is more powerful than a class 40. If I recall, the Deltic were numbered class 55. We have had diesels in the 60s for a long time and now class 73s are in service.
Electrics are more powerful, the West Coast locos being class 81 to 87 and later ones on the East Coast in the Class 90s.
I remember reading that a heavy express like the Mid-day Scot, would get to Shap summit at about 15 mph hauled by a Coronation pacific and banked by a second engine....the fireman of the Coronation working his nuts off, even with a steam pusher for his coal.
On the first day of electric traction, drivers were breasting the summit with the same train and no banker at over 90mph.
Now that's some power increase !
Apologies if some of my diesel numbers are wrong...I'm not a diesel enthusiast, although I quite like them.
Ted
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>> I remember reading that a heavy express like the Mid-day Scot, would get to Shap
>> summit at about 15 mph hauled by a Coronation pacific and banked by a second
>> engine....the fireman of the Coronation working his nuts off, even with a steam pusher for
>> his coal.
Yeah well they never had LNER drivers or Engines did they, the LMS was poofters.
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>>
>
>> Yeah well they never had LNER drivers or Engines did they, the LMS was poofters.
>>
>> Yeah, well the LNER men didn't have big hills to drive up and they could change crews without stopping.
No wonder they could afford to sit back and polish thier nails for most of the trip ! Hairdresser's engines !
:-P
Ted
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>> I know the video states that they were the most powerful locomotive, but that was
>> back in the fifties. How do they compare power-wise to todays modern loco`s?
The Type 55 Deltic is listed at 3300bhp and 100 tons or 33bhp/ton. Don't know about modern locos but I looked up the (Class 43) Intercity125s which pull/push the trains I use for my commute and they're listed as 1678 kW per ~70-tonne loco = ~2250bhp / 70 tons = ~32bhp/ton. But of course there's 2 of them.
Last edited by: Focus on Mon 30 May 11 at 15:45
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A steam engine could produce 143 Kilonewtons, and weighed (with tender) about 150 tons. Could only get about 25% of that to wheels tho without slipage.
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The current Class 67 is probably the nearest equivalent to a Deltic today, about the same horsepower but only 80 tons:-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_67
BR realised that there wasn't much point in upping the power any further than Deltic because the infrastructure couldn't cope with longer/faster trains anyway.
I think the most powerful single unit diesel to run here was the 4000hp 'Kestrel' which was never carried forward into production:-
www.derbysulzers.com/HS4000.html
Last edited by: spamcan61 on Mon 30 May 11 at 16:39
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There is a good few about in private collections and can be seen around York often.
One turned up last year at Neville hill open day & could do with another one of those to take my lad as was a bit young then.
If the HST get replaced these will be ideal for freight goverened to a nice 90 mph.
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My grandfather (on mum's side) worked at "the Brush" as it was known locally; I remember being taken to see Kestrel being built.
Helluva piece of kit.
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>> "the Brush" as it was known locally
I've delivered into there a few times, as well as Bombardier in Derby. I've never been "into" trains as such but I always find a visit to either factory fascinating. It's the love of all things mechanical, I reckon.
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Some more info:
www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11815175
One of my uncles used to work on the production lines for these locomotives at the factory near Liverpool when I was a youngster.
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>> I think the most powerful single unit diesel to run here was the 4000hp 'Kestrel'
>> which was never carried forward into production:-
>>
>> www.derbysulzers.com/HS4000.html
Good story; sad ending (I know it's only a lump of metal):
"By the early 1980's it is reported that the locomotive body was suffering severely from corrosion, though it is reported as remaining in service at least until 1986. The remains of Kestrel were scrapped at the Kolomna locomotive workshops during 1993."
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The Deltic engine is still in service, powering the "Hunt" class mine countermeasures ships of the Royal Navy.
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>> www.derbysulzers.com/HS4000.html
So it ended up in Russia. At least they didn't take our Deltics - they're better lookin' anyway.
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Looking at some of the big EWS freight diesels parked at Didcot Parkway on the train home this evening I thought I'd look them up later. They're Class 66s apparently, also 3300bhp like the Deltics, although heavier at 130 tonnes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_66
Looked up the engine - it's a General Motors 710 series, so named because it has a displacement of 710 cubic inches, or 11.63 litres. I thought that sounded quite small to generate 3000+bhp, but reading on, it's 11.63 litres per cylinder, of which there are 12 in the Class 66, making a total of just under 140 litres.
Do you think I could get one under the Focus's bonnet?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_710
(pity they don't give the torque outputs)
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>> Looking at some of the big EWS freight diesels parked at Didcot Parkway on the
>> train home this evening I thought I'd look them up later. They're Class 66s apparently,
>> also 3300bhp like the Deltics, although heavier at 130 tonnes.
>>
Although this isn't relevant to the 66s, in the old days (1970s and earlier) extra weight was actually a good thing for a freight locomotive, as many of the wagons didn't have automatic brakes, so most of the braking force had to come from the loco brakes. The 66s have pretty much wiped out the vast majority of the old school British manufactured diesels e.g. classes 37, 47 etc. - mind you some of them were around 50 years old.
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There were two 66s, but there was also what I've just discovered was a Class 67. The former looked much bigger and I assumed they were more powerful, but according to Wiki the 67 runs them close in terms of power output at 3200bhp (although 500bhp less at the rail - much more inefficient diesel-electric conversion?). 'Only' 88 tonnes, which would explain the apparently smaller size.
EDIT: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_67
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 1 Jun 11 at 20:34
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>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_710
>> (pity they don't give the torque outputs)
26,500 lbs-ft torque (35956 nM?) @ 900 RPM
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>> 26,500 lbs-ft torque (35956 nM?) @ 900 RPM
quite pokey then
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As a rough estimate;
1e-3*(60*2.5e6)/(900*2*pi)
ans =
26.5258
So, about 26,500 Nm.
I don't know these engines in particular, but, it's not impossible for the maximum torque speed and the maximum power speed both to occur at the engine's maximum speed, as the maximum speed of large engines may be limited by mechanical stress before it is limited by aerodynamic or combustion related limits.
Sorry, I missed the earlier posts where the torque numbers had been found - not sure I can believe 26500 lbf ft though.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Wed 1 Jun 11 at 20:39
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I wouldn't stake my life on it, but either way it can pull the skin off a rice pudding.
Bit academic tho, dont these things drive an electric motor, so traction power at the wheels is different?
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>> Bit academic tho, dont these things drive an electric motor, so traction power at the
>> wheels is different?
Good point - the Wiki entry for the 66 states the 'tractive effort' is:
Maximum: 409 kN (91,900 lbf) at starting
Continuous: 260 kN (58,500 lbf) at 15.9 mph (25.6 km/h)
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 1 Jun 11 at 20:47
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Yes, there will be the efficiencies of the generator, any switching elements, and the motor to consider.
For me, the impressive fitment on these locos is the doppler radar to allow a controlled amount of wheelslip.
Just like car tyres, the maximum tractive force is obtained at a small slip value, but, unlike car tyres, the breakaway is much more sudden. Wheel slip protection systems based on similar systems to car ABS and traction control are easily caught out by this, and the radar systems are a big improvement.
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>>Continuous: 260 kN (58,500 lbf) at 15.9 mph (25.6 km/h)
>> 260e3*25600/3600
ans =
1.8489e+006
That's about 1.8 MW at the rail, compared with the engine's rating of 2.5 MW.
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Aaaah the Deltic. Proof that neck hair prickling sounds can come from diesel engines.
Crank up the volume:
www.rail-videos.net/video/view.php?id=8833
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Deltics are back - Focusless
