I see that the officer who is alleged to have push him over, is now going to be tried for manslaughter.
tinyurl.com/3cgggad
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He'd have got away with it if it wasn't for the video foootage. It makes me wonder how many other incidents like this have gone unnoticed.
Last edited by: Chris S on Tue 24 May 11 at 13:55
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Without saying too much in view of the decision, I'm amazed it didn't happen first time round in view of the apparently damning video footage shown repeatedly at the time and since.
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...I'm amazed it didn't happen first time round in view of the apparently damning video footage...
Disagreement among the medics.
The first one was erring towards natural causes, but doctors who pitched up at the widely reported inquest took a different view.
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Not good whichever angle you look at it from.
My prediction for what its worth:
1/ Arguments that it will not be a fair trial as he has already been assassinated by the media coverage.
2/ Different medical opinions as to cause of death from variety of 'experts' - case not proved beyond reasonable doubt.
3/ Possible plea to lesser charge of assault.
Pleased I'm not in his shoes.
My next prediction is that this thread will be locked as the matter is now subjudice.
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...1/ Arguments that it will not be a fair trial as he has already been assassinated by the media coverage...
No worries there - all the stuff on the video tape will be largely agreed, the trial will be about the medical evidence which has barely been in the media, 'cos it's boring.
Also any trial will be much later this year, or early next, by which time everyone will have forgotten all about it.
...2/ Different medical opinions as to cause of death from variety of 'experts' - case not proved beyond reasonable doubt...
Very likely.
...3/ Possible plea to lesser charge of assault...
I wouldn't want to be the one who has to tell the family.
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 24 May 11 at 19:48
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I think he will, and should, get off. Its clear to me that the push, altho robust and firm was not excessive, and could not reasonably be expected to have caused injuries, let alone death.
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Looking at it in isolation it just does not look good. Like shooting, hitting someone from behind is difficult to justify as 'reasonable force'. And that is what the Officer is up against.
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>> should, get off.
I agree Zero that from the much-seen video it doesn't look as if the officer intended to kill or maim.
But it does look as if he pushed a middle-aged man smaller than himself with his hands in his pockets from behind with rather mean roughness, guaranteed actually to produce a fall as anyone would know. There is also an alleged underhand blow with a baton, a clip less often seen.
Perhaps it was this officer's bad luck that the late Tomlinson was physically fragile and sustained fatal injuries. But that might be the risk you take when you are proving yourself a useful man in a riot situation.
I don't really want the guy to do time especially. But some punishment is justified given the outcome and the gratuitous nature of the shove to a man presenting no threat. Being booted out of the fuzz for example. There's work for such people in the private sector although one hesitates to applaud it really. .
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Ah - I hadn't see the baton bit. Still it was a low blow appearing to be aimed nowhere vital.
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>>But that might be the risk you take when you are proving yourself a useful man in a riot situation. >>
Ian Tomlinson was walking slowly away on his own at the time he was pushed from behind. I'm a great admirer of the police and what they have to put up with, especially on days such as that in question, but at the time I felt this behaviour was completely unwarranted and still feel angry each time it's been shown today.
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Armel Coussine said:
>>
>> But it does look as if he pushed a middle-aged man smaller than himself with
>> his hands in his pockets from behind with rather mean roughness, guaranteed actually to produce
>> a fall as anyone would know. There is also an alleged underhand blow with a
>> baton, a clip less often seen.
>>
It does look like assault unless you think it reasonable for a police officer to hit a passer by with a truncheon, and push them over. With today's digital cameras, it does not pay for a PC to behave like that and expect not to get called to account. That said, there was mention that the police had experienced violent behaviour earlier, and that could have set them on edge, making them over-react.
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Following on from what Z says, could the fact that he was so drunk have been a cause of falling over. If you pushed me hard from behind I'd probably stay standing - unless very drunk.
And I do wonder now if the medical opinions are agreeing on a number of points?
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You can always find an 'expert' who will disagree especially where professional opinions are concerned. And these experts charge for their services.
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I obviously have my own views on this episode, however.
I must say that i feel almost afraid to comment on such things as this involving the police, there is an unpleasant atmosphere developing here on this forum over almost anything to do with the police , we've seen several quite horrible spats recently, personally abusive too and i for one dislike it intently, and i like to think i can see both or indeed all sides of an argument.
I do not include FC's post in this view, a particularly sensible view.
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Probably best to leave any discussion on guilt or otherwise to the jury.
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I heard an interview today with someone involved with the medical evidence and it seems new information has become available which they felt was sufficient to prove manslaughter.
I think you just have to wait and see what comes out in the wash, we have due process and that should provide a definative conclusion.
The accused ( not condemmed ) is an individual responsible for his own actions, he may be a policeman and it may have been a work issue, but that shouldnt reflect on anyone else in his profession unless there was a training or procedural issue.
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>>I heard an interview today with someone involved with the medical evidence and it seems new information has become available which they felt was sufficient to prove manslaughter.>>
This came to light at the recent inquest, which is why the CPS decided to look at the case again at the time.
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>> I must say that i feel almost afraid to comment on such things as this
>> involving the police, there is an unpleasant atmosphere developing here on this forum over almost
>> anything to do with the police
I agree with you. People like MLC and Westpig who can explain why things are done the way they are add a huge amount of value to this place. Why those who disagree can't just say so & butt out of the conversation is beyond me.
Banter about bacon sarnies and donuts is one thing; provocative personal stuff is beyond the pale.
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it takes two to have a row, even on here.
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>> it takes two to have a row, even on here.
True but some folks are like the oik at school who just kept prodding you where it hurts.....
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A person has died who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
He left a wife and children behind.
You can argue about the rights and wrongs.Whatever will be decided about the police officer he has to live with this for the rest of his live.There are no winners .
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>> He left a wife and children behind.
He did and that's sad. But just as sad was he was apparently homeless, presumably due to his alcoholism?
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Gordonbennett: it's a shame you feel that way. Everyone has the right to their view but then everyone must be able to respond. Officers find it difficult when some of the views are clearly not borne of any experience, merely unqualified perception. In the case of Tomlinson I doubt you'll find an officer that doesn't cringe at the video. I can't see any justification and there simply isn't a place for bullies in the service. Dealing with hardened criminals is one thing, a defenceless nuisance at best is entirely another matter. Manslaughter? A matter for the courts as it would be for anyone charged. The officer is just as entitled to offer a defence as anyone else.
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You know the answer to your own question rtj70.
Alcoholism is a ilness and causes all kind of problems.I dont judge a person if he or she is a alcoholic or homeless.Some of the best people i have met in live have very little material things.
And other people I have come across with plenty of everything are very shallow.
A defenceless nuisance you call him Woodster.And that is what he was and reading some of the stories about him also a kind person.
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>> I dont judge a person if he or she is a alcoholic or homeless
Neither was I - but his drinking was probably (a) part of the reason for the events that led to him dying and (b) the media have been mentioning his wife and family to make out they lost him because of this incident.... they'd already lost him to drink.
All very sad. And maybe the officer deserves this latest investigation and the courts will decide.
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Zero said:
>> it takes two to have a row, even on here.
It has been said that the Labour MP Gerald Kaufman could start an argument even if he was the only one in the room ...
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Yeah, he was never sure if he was right or wrong.
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They have all been on the take Pug.A few got send to prison to make a example of them.
Which politician is there still to respect?
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>> Which politician is there still to respect?
>>
Dennis Skinner and Wedgie Benn, both for different reasons.
Not as i necessarily agree with either of them politically, but imo they are both men of honour and principle, or about as far from their contempories as it's possible to be.
Short list for me.
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You must have been reading my mind gordon.Dennis Skinner is a one off.
Also Mr Benn I stand corrected.
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There are some Kaufman was amongst them at one time. Tony Benn still is a decent chap..!
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I believe Tony Benn could have been a lord and he turned the title down.
John Smith had charisma a one off politician very good in debate I used to like listening to him.
Anyway the new slogan is now the big socieity I thought we always lived in one whats changed ?
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Benn was a heredity peer and renounced it.
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Thanks Pugugly I am off to bed busy day tomorrow getting a flight we hope.:)
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I paid good money to go and hear Benn.
I totally disagreed with everything he said and and stood for, but didn't heckle, I bet he could've made me look look minuscule.
A brilliant orator!
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There are three limbs to proving involuntary manslaughter.
1. The defendant must do a criminal act - shoving someone is not crime of the century, but it is common assault.
2. It must be obvious to 'a sober and reasonable person' the act would subject the victim to risk of harm, albeit not serious harm - a person shoved over on a Tarmac surface is clearly at risk of a bruise or scrape from falling over.
3. The act resulted in the person's death.
We will all have our opinions, but points one and two look fairly clear in this case, point three much less so.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#a08
An extract from the above link:
"73. This is where the killing is the result of:
The defendant's unlawful act (not omission);
Where the unlawful act is one which all sober and reasonable people would realise would subject the victim to the risk of some physical harm resulting there from, albeit not serious harm - R v Williams and Davis (1992) 2 All ER 183;"
Worth noting the law is not interested in the occupation of the defendant.
Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 25 May 11 at 08:04
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I read Tony Benn's diaries. He had a gift for fiction and could have been a great writer.
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>> I read Tony Benn's diaries. He had a gift for fiction and could have been
>> a great writer.
I think he used his gift for fiction to good effect in his political career. He is a very engaging speaker, and by all accounts he is a pleasant man in the flesh, unlike someone like Gordon Brown.
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2nd Viscount Stansgate, Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn is a very intelligent, engaging, witty man, possibly the most principled and passionate politician that has ever been.
Strangely mixed up views tho, for example a rabid technocrat pushing for the boundaries of white heat technology he was also a fervent critic of pirate pop radio trying to push every button to close them down.
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Dutchie said:
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>> Which politician is there still to respect?
>>
A lot of the old lefties such as Clare Short, Benn, Michael Meacher and Frank Field seem to be honest decent people. I dislike much of their politics, especially Benn, a very dangerous man because he is so charming and pursuasive that the naive will believe the absurd nonsense he comes out with. I suspect Widecombe is honest and decent, albeit mad. And David Davis seems on the level. The woman who helped set up the SDLP is I am sure very decent.
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>> >> Which politician is there still to respect?
>> >>
>>
>
Michael Heseltine
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Current/previous MPs locally, Sally Keeble and Brian Binley are both ordinary people when you meet them face to face. Both have done stirling work for the town's rail user group and Sally was a very good work experience host for my daughter.
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Duncan said:
>> >> >> Which politician is there still to respect?
>>
>> Michael Heseltine
I agree with you, and I think we need more people with business experience and managerial competence. There are too many lawyers, media types and management consultants in the current parliament. That said, I respect Hague, an ex-management consultant.
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>>....and Frank Field seem to be honest decent people>>
One of the few Labour MPs I've ever genuinely admired and respected.
>>The woman who helped set up the SDLP is I am sure very decent>>
I believe you are thinking of Shirley Williams (Baroness Williams of Crosby).
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>> I believe you are thinking of Shirley Williams (Baroness Williams of Crosby).
I am, thank you.
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Ian Tomlinson - Manslaughter charge - Chris S
