I have no axe to grind with any of the three main parties, i despise them all equally.
The Lib Dems appear to have lost out in a big way in the local elections for a variety of reasons.
By surrendering their principles, insofar as a politician is capable of having them, they have alienated their core voters, this may be a mid term hiccup, or is the damage deeper.
Disillusioned Lib Dem voters are probably likely to vote Labour, could Cameron's victory over Clegg, general policies and to a lesser extent the AV vote, actually be Cameron's undoing come the next election, could the almost embarrasing crushing of the Libs by Tory high command be by default electing the next Labour govt.
Will we instead see the worm turn and bite it's master and regain it's self respect and it's principles, is it too late for them, or are they so desperate to be seen as being in some sort of power.
It might well mean an early general election if they do say 'Enough'.
|
At the moment Labour has the unelectable leader called Ed Miliband. The unions may regret not backing his brother.
Out of Miliband, Clegg and Cameron I'd probably prefer Clegg to the lead the country or failing that Cameron. We have a happy compromise at the moment.
|
>> At the moment Labour has the unelectable leader called Ed Miliband.
Don't underestimate the idiocy/gullibility of the electorate, snake oil salesman Blair managed getting them in well enough.
|
>> >> At the moment Labour has the unelectable leader called Ed Miliband.
>>
>> Don't underestimate the idiocy/gullibility of the electorate, snake oil salesman Blair managed getting them in
>> well enough.
>>
Even after the forthcoming surgical procedure to remove his adenoids to change his droning voice, Ed Miliband will get nowhere near the slick smooth talking snake oil salesman that Blair was.
|
The unfortunate Clegg, a perfectly decent-seeming chap, is getting the blame for all the suffering the government keeps promising to inflict on us. I must say apart from the price of juice and snout I haven't noticed much yet. But perhaps I'm not mainstream really.
He's a scapegoat. The Cons have done him up like a kipper, with the support of howling hordes claiming he promised them something or other and didn't deliver. Of course the coup de grace will now be delivered by the lemdibs but you gotta shoot your own hound aint it so, Billy Joe?
Blood and guts all over the floor, part of the great grown-up game of being horrid on behalf of, er, us actually.... The decent Clegg may well spring back to life.
And in the end, not perhaps next year but some time soonish, we will perhaps get some sort of PR too. I can smell it on the wind.
|
>> And in the end, not perhaps next year but some time soonish, we will perhaps
>> get some sort of PR too. I can smell it on the wind.
Where is that going to come from? Labour has no stomach or need for it, the Tories don't want it.
Its chicken and egg, only the liberals want it, but to get it they need to be in power, but without PR they wont be...
|
>> Where is that going to come from?
The wind comes from Europe and America where the same phenomena are afoot: the rise in a post-modern world of local nationalisms and one-issue parties like the Greens and UKIP. It's a global rash, and those of democratic sensibility - not sure I am myself one of these but my wife is - want them to have parliamentary representation. I think it's coming, but not immediately.
Almost makes one feel nostalgic for the nutter Lord Sutch who campaigned one year in my local manor with his hearse and opera hat.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 7 May 11 at 14:58
|
>
>> It might well mean an early general election if they do say 'Enough'.
If we have an early election they will be decimated even more. If I was Clegg I would need time to rebuild and heal. Time I could only get by keeping the Tories in for as long as possible.
Moreover, no-one in the liberals can out him from his current cabinet post, only Cameron can do that. As deputy PM he carries more real power than any post in the liberal party, so would anyone try and oust him as party leader.
Its an opinion and theory that the massive stomping the liberals got will ensure the coalition goes near full term. However... Who knows.
|
>> By surrendering their principles, insofar as a politician is capable of having them, they have
You conveniently forget that in a coaliton both the parties have had to compromise. The Liberals can justifiably claim to have moderated some extreme Tory policies as well as claim to have got some Liberal policies through.
>> It might well mean an early general election if they do say 'Enough'.
>>
Now that the AV proposal has been thrashed comprehensively, the liberals know that their only chance of Government is to continue for another 4 years in the hope that at the end of that period the electorate can see the sensible things the Liberals achieved. That way they have some hope of recovering some of their form of 2010.
If they quit the coalition any earlier, the Liberals will lose out big time.
So I am sorry to give disappointing news, but the Con-Lib government will see its full 5 year term through and carry out all the drastic measures needed to recover from Labour's credit card binge spending.
Remember what Mervyn King said just over a year ago before the 2010 election:
www.newstatesman.com/economy/2010/04/bank-england-austerity-power
"Governor of the Bank of England warns that austerity measures will be so unpopular that the next party in power will not be voted back in."
|
|
I recall that Cameron acknowledged that in an interview before the last election, something along the lines of being unelectable for a generation. We were well and truly screwed by Labour and whilst the Banks must carry a proportion of the blame for being a bunch of thieves - Gordon Brown gave them the combination of the safe by de-regulating them and allowing them to control themselves.
|
>> I recall that Cameron acknowledged that in an interview before the last election, something along
>> the lines of being unelectable for a generation. We were well and truly screwed by
>> Labour and whilst the Banks must carry a proportion of the blame for being a
>> bunch of thieves - Gordon Brown gave them the combination of the safe by de-regulating
>> them and allowing them to control themselves.
>>
It still amazes me all the labour people out there moaning about the cuts and failing to realise if they were in power they'd have to be doing exactly the same, if not worse, as they'd have buried their heads in the sand for another year before doing anything!
What really worries me is the utter cretins that want to put Gordon Brown in charge of the IMF?? Like why??? He is an utter moron that can't run a country. The last thing you need is this fool in charge of the IMF. It will be bankrupt within months with him in charge.
We always get screwed by labour. It happened in the 70s too. Perhaps a semi permanent con-lib coalition might actually be a more sensible way to run the country?
|
>> It still amazes me all the labour people out there moaning about the cuts and
>> failing to realise if they were in power they'd have to be doing exactly the
>> same, if not worse, as they'd have buried their heads in the sand for another
>> year before doing anything!
>>
I ended up laughing out loud at the TV on Thursday morning. They were interviewing an MP from each of the three main parties and the Labour guy was going on and on about government spending cuts. It was pointed out to him that while the government were cutting spending by 16 billion pounds this year, labour had themselves planned for 14 billion worth - as near as dammit. After being challenged persistently about where Labour would have made the cuts he finally blurted out "Bankers bonuses".
|
In council elections voters either protest (i.e punish the government) or the vote polarises, generally it was the latter.
Re AV it is frankly the LD's fault in that they stuck their neck on the line by insisting that the referendum would be part of the coalition deal and it has backfired. That being said Clegg is doing a good job as Deputy PM and it is in all interests ( Conservative, LD and the country) for the coalition to prosper, the countries interests have to come before party politics, they have so far this term and I think reckon they will continue to do so.
Cameron handled it very well, he could have gloated (or skipped down Downing St as I think one pundit put it) though instead he was consiliatory and supportive of Clegg.
|
People are just not used to the LibDems having any position of power at national, rather than local level, after many decades of being on the sidelines.
Hence the battering...:-)
|
>>Cameron handled it very well, he could have gloated (or skipped down Downing St as I think one pundit put it) though instead he was consiliatory and supportive of Clegg.>>
Spot on. That includes congratulating Alex Salmond (no doubt through clenched teeth!)
|
The Lib Dem polices werent realistic because they never expected to win, but act as a left-wing pressure group. By association, those who voted for them must also have their heads in the clouds, so of course its no wonder they somehow expected their party, with just 57 seats would implement its entire manfesto.
I expect they thought they would all win the lottery too...reality bites.
I feel for the Lib Dems, this is a very hard transitional period where they are learning the true nature of power BUT I think in another 4 years time, the party will be stronger because this will have blown over and they will now have real experience, which always meant they lacked credibility before.
What they need are for the longer term economic policies to work, then both members of the coalition can pat themselves on the back and it makes sense to people, but it is a gamble, although moreso for the Tories really because the Lib Dems arent likely to win power any time soon regardless of how well the policies work - the Tories are.
As a right-winger, I have a huge amount of admiration for Clegg because he is playing the long game, to make his party relevant, something a worm like Chris Huhne will never get especially given his iffy personal life, it would seem he has little grounds on which to make judgements of truth.
To answer the original question, yes they are, but its the first round, I think they may come back stronger.
Last edited by: FoR on Sat 7 May 11 at 00:55
|
|
I live in a town where the LibDems have quite a strong foothold and their results in the local election stood up well.
|
|
and that's the whole point of the Lib-Dems - fairly good at local government but hopeless (due to lack of experience) at national level. They've been catapulted into a share of power and will blow it, eventually. They attract people like hapless Huhne, Selfish Simon (Hughes)and Clumsy Cable whose efforts label the party in the public mind. Labour, having picked the wrong leader due to using an AV system, are out of power for at least another 4 years and, more likely, 9 years. The Tories can't lose, and will probably sort out the country's dire finances over the next 10-15 years. They can afford to be hated!
|
>>..and that's the whole point of the Lib-Dems - fairly good at local government but hopeless (due to lack of experience) at national level>>
Which is basically what I stated earlier in the thread...:-)
|
|
But the LibDems knew that was going to happen. That's the inevitable role of the junior partner in a coalition. If they ever get AV, and therefore more coalitions, it will happen again.
|
|
This is their first experience of "unpopularity in power" must be a nasty shock. I think they assumed it was just a Tory or Lab phenomena.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 7 May 11 at 11:52
|
>> This is their first experience of "unpopularity in power" must be a nasty shock. >>
I don't see why it should be a shock. If they really thought that assuming power on a platform of hard decisions and belt tightening would make them anything other than hated, then they must be extraordinarily dim.
I wonder what they think in hindsight they ought to have done? Joined a coalition with Gordon Brown? Or just thrown up their hands and disbanded, and admitted that this grown-up parliamentary stuff was all too much for them?
|
There should be no 'junior' party in a coalition.
Wiki>>A coalition is a pact or treaty among individuals or groups, during which they cooperate in joint action, each in their own self-interest, joining forces together for a common cause. This alliance may be temporary or a matter of convenience. A coalition thus differs from a more formal covenant. Possibly described as a joining of 'factions', usually those with overlapping interests rather than opposing
From where I'm sitting this has never happened.
Pat
|
I think the 'junior' bit comes from the fact that the Lib Dems didnt get the majority of anything, except perhaps Shetland and Orkney, so compared to the Tories, their interests are of less value by share of the vote, they barely deserve a say about what type of coffee the office buys.
As it is, given how few people actually voted for the Lib Dems, they have been pretty influential on policy.
|
>> As it is, given how few people actually voted for the Lib Dems, they have
>> been pretty influential on policy.
They only got 6% less than the Labour party.
|
I can't explain to myself why the Lib Dems are getting all this stick for reneging on their pledges - they didn't exactly win the election, and presumably did the best deal they could with the Tories. Maybe their voters are just dim.
Cameron is fully aware that 5 years of austerity will see the Tories kicked out for years and hand the country back to Labour. His best bet is to front-load the cuts, then distribute a bit of largesse for feel-good factor ahead of the next election.
I believe the Tory PR machine has dumped on Clegg since the election. Could be a mistake, if more disaffected LibDem voters switch to to Labour than to the Tories.
|
" Maybe their voters are just dim"
Anyone who supports a party which promises to increase spending for students ( no fees) at a time of economic austerity is as dim as the party who proposes it..
Many (but not all) LD supporters live in the mood of permanent protest with little idea of economic or po;itical achievability. When reality strikes, it comes as a shock to discover the country can't afford all your promises.
|
Local Govt. here is very Tory led, and to be honest we have seen no severe cuts. Appears that they have had a tight grip on the purse for several years and its now paying off. Our council tax dropped slightly this year.
I think the coalition is working pretty well, and better that I expected. Cameron has surprised me, and appears to be happy to make unpopular choices.
I do worry about what may have been had labour got back in - would we have been the next Greece?
|
|
The Tories will survive as long as that Miliband man is in charge of Labour. He is the greatest asset the Tories have.
|
Fantastic isnt he?
Nothing relates more to the working classes than a privately educated millionaire.
|
>> Nothing relates more to the working classes than a privately educated millionaire.
>>
I don't like the guy, either, but fair's fair. Red Ed actually went to Haverstock Comprehensive School in Chalk Farm.
|
|
My bad, I was thinking of Ed Balls.
|
Keep hearing about these cuts, and how well the coalition is doing, frankly i haven't seen many cuts, conversely in the snippets of news that are unavoidable i find our present leaders spending more of our money, and promising to spend even more, on foreign aid (whatever that is) and more foreign armed expeditions...aiding democracy elsewhere with bulletts and missiles.
Saving a few thousand quid on some local public services and spending billions on helping other countries to run their show's doesn't sound particularly economically viable to me, borrowing constantly with no prospect of paying it back only ends in tears.
I wonder what Lib Dem supporters really expected, i hoped they might force PR onto the table but it soon became clear that democracy isn't part of their agenda either.
AV wasn't an alternative worth consideration, it was designed to keep the three party system going as is, a lot of hot air over nothing IMO.
I doubt the Lib Dem vote will change much when the time comes, UK voters have short memories.
|
Lib Dems on the ropes? - rtj70
