Non-motoring > London bombings - unlawfully killed   [Read only] Miscellaneous
Thread Author: BobbyG Replies: 45
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 Fri 6 May 11 22:28 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - BobbyG
Why did we need a 6 month inquest, 6 years after the event , to tell us that you can't lawfully bomb people in London?

No doubt incurring huge legal costs in the process?
       
 Fri 6 May 11 22:30 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Zero
The bombers died, so other scapegoats were needed.
       
 Fri 6 May 11 22:40 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - R.P.
We were talking about this earlier when we heard the evening news. An inquest as well as being a legal closure to an an unexpected death, and a number of other process need an inquest verdict before they can be undertaken (e.g. Life Insurance payouts in some cases) they also bring closure to grieving families and friends. And the longer it takes the more (in my experience) stressful it becomes. It was a no **** Sherlock verdict. There should have been a Judicial Enquiry to the emergency response and the Box's involvement.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 03:43 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
Why do we need an inquest?

Partly so that stories such as this can be told:

tinyurl.com/6ehpgdv

And in the hope the emergency and intelligence services will learn something.

If nothing else, they may at least be publicly shamed into sharpening up their act even if, as usual, their main focus is preserving their cushy public sector jobs and pensions.



Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 7 May 11 at 03:45
      1  
 Sat 7 May 11 07:44 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - -
>> Partly so that stories such as this can be told:
>>

That story puts our petty life problems into perspective, thank Iffy for the link...read with a lump in the throat.

As for protecting cushy jobs and pensions, a dead fish rots from the head first apparently, maybe the way head's and multiple layers of managers are appointed might benefit from a rethink...experience and hands on knowledge (can do, have done) might be better qualifiers for promoting to decision making levels, not just in these industries either.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 7 May 11 at 07:45
       
 Sat 7 May 11 08:48 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
>> And in the hope the emergency and intelligence services will learn something.
>>
>> If nothing else, they may at least be publicly shamed into sharpening up their act
>> even if, as usual, their main focus is preserving their cushy public sector jobs and
>> pensions.

I don't respond to many threads on this site anymore.

I'll make a special effort in this case.

You're an idiot and an offensive one at that. You'd fit right in to a job at the Daily Wail.
      15  
 Sat 7 May 11 09:17 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
This message has been hidden as many of our users have rated it as offensive.
You may view it by clicking here
...You're an idiot and an offensive one at that...


And you, mlc, are in denial if you think the emergency services covered themselves in glory that day.

A small but significant number of their personnel failed abjectly to do the job.

If I'm an idiot, what does that make them?

And why is it that some policemen have such a big problem with the facts?

You don't like the facts, so your response is to label the person who points them out as offensive.

Get real man.





      4  
 Sat 7 May 11 09:25 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
So their job is cushy is it. I'm sure the only thing on their minds that day was their pensions. Pathetic comment.

Some may have stuck too rigidly to the training they had (introduced because your mates at the scummy Daily Wail castigate them (and lie) for every time something doesn't have a text book result.)

Regardless, they are worth ten of you. Very brave to sit behind your keyboard and look at the pictures,
      15  
 Sat 7 May 11 10:03 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...So their job is cushy is it....

mlc,

The way a lot of them do it, yes it is.

Any idiot can see that, because when something a bit difficult came along, they made a balls of it.

And it's all the fault of the Daily Mail, is it?

Ask the bloke with no legs in the linked story what he thinks of the Daily Mail.

I don't know what he will say, but I think it will be he was pleased to be given the chance to tell his story in public, and to offer his criticisms - mostly of security services.

Perhaps you'd like to call him names as well.

       
 Sat 7 May 11 09:28 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Bromptonaut
The inquiry shows that the emergency services can learn lessons. They always can and this was an event without precedent in peacetime.

Hi-lighting and discussing failings is one thing. Turning it into a simplistic mailesque rant about pensions and working conditions in the public sector is another.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 09:30 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Bromptonaut
One oh the thumbsups to iffy's post is mine. Finger trouble - I entirely dissiciate myself from the opinions he expresses.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 10:07 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...I entirely dissiciate myself from the opinions he expresses...

Bromp,

Bit of the civil service run and hide culture coming out there. :)

Don't worry, I haven't expressed any opinions for you to disassociate yourself from.

It's all fact - a word which you understand but our resident traffic cop apparently has some difficulty with.

Well, it's fact as presented to the inquest, which is about as near to the truth as we will ever get.

       
 Sat 7 May 11 10:58 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
I must have missed the bit in the inquest where there was inane, pathetic ramblimgs about 'cushy jobs and pensions'. Where did that 'fact' feature?

       
 Sat 7 May 11 11:00 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
As for the Daily Wail. The way they tell lies and twist facts is demonstrated thus:

nosleeptilbrooklands.blogspot.com/2011/01/true-story-of-daily-mail-lies-guest.html

No doubt you'll leap to their defence. Gutter press at its worst.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 11:20 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...As for the Daily Mail...

Now there's something the inquest missed - the bombings and the incompetent response was all the fault of the Daily Mail.

Priceless.



       
 Sat 7 May 11 11:14 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...I must have missed the bit in the inquest...

Good heavens, you are not finally starting to look at the best account we have of what happened are you?

I have not said 'cushy jobs and pensions' were mentioned at the inquest.

But, and this is a guess, I bet no one lost either in the wake of this shambles.

I think that is one of the differences between the public and private sector.

If there's a monumental balls-up at my place, one or two sackings will surely follow, if only ritual ones.


       
 Sat 7 May 11 11:28 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
Well, here's the thing. I may be a 'traffic cop' but I'm also a specialist in DVI. That's Disaster Victim Identification to you. In other words, I go and pick the bits up and try and find out who they are. As such, I have had detailed inside knowledge of what did and did not happen in London. I do not have to rely on the Daily Mail.

There were an awful lot of very brave people on that day. Some members of the services (mainly from the ambulance service) waited until they were sure 1. there was no power on the lines and 2. there were no more devices. Both are eminently sensible decisions. Nobody gets help if the rescuers become casualties.

Many members decided to ignore those risks and enter the tunnels. That was a personal decsion. If they had triggered another device and more injured got killed, then your mates at the odius Wail would have found another line and condemned them.

None of those there on the day would have been thinking about their 'cushy jobs and pensions'. They would have been doing the best jobs, they as individuals, could do.

You are the worst kind of person. An armchair warrior, who laps up hindsight critics, sat making comment in their armchairs. You're not fit to clear away the b***** bandages. I feel sorry for the people who work for you. You clearly place no value on people and consider them expendable as 'ritual sackings'. I'm sure that would teach 'em eh!
      8  
 Sat 7 May 11 14:13 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...You are the worst kind of person...

You know nothing of who I am.

Your tactics have been used many times before when a public body faces criticism - deny, distract and discredit.

Deny: They did nothing wrong, it wasn't their fault.

Distract: Look at the Daily Mail, it's a rubbish newspaper.

Discredit: In this case, call me names and attempt to assassinate my character.

A few feeble-minded people might even be impressed.


      1  
 Sat 7 May 11 15:43 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
>> ...You are the worst kind of person...>>
>> You know nothing of who I am.>>
>> Your tactics have been used many times before when a public body faces criticism -
>> deny, distract and discredit.>>
>> Deny: They did nothing wrong, it wasn't their fault.>>
>> Distract: Look at the Daily Mail, it's a rubbish newspaper.>>
>> Discredit: In this case, call me names and attempt to assassinate my character.>>
>> A few feeble-minded people might even be impressed.
>>

I've no interest in who you are.

Your conveniently ignore the dross you've originally posted and fail to respond to, or ignore the points I've raised.

My previous post clearly states that there are things to be learned. Mistakes? In whose opinion? Have you ever been at the scene of a bomb?Have you ever had to step over dismembered bodies? How would you as an individual have reacted (I know you're perfect).

The emergency services use Airwave radios. A multi-million pound white elephant that hasn't worked properly since it was introduced. It can't receive a signal in a building, never mind an underground tunnel. So there you are, sat at the entrance of an underground station, knowing that multiple bombs have gone off. Multiple, confused reports coming in of where and how severe. Other multiple reports of further bombers on the loose. Public, injured and uninjured screaming at you for help and guidance. London grinding to a halt, hampering emergency vehicles getting to scenes. The radio system overloaded. Casualty stations to be set up. Hundreds of injured to be attended to. Officers trying to attend hospitals to secure clothing and samples. Trying to ensure the right leg went with the right torso. The decisions made by quite junior personnel was quite astounding on the day. They deserve huge amounts of credit.

But you. sat in your comfy armchair after hours of critical analysis, feel qualified to state that 'they were only thinking of their comfy jobs and pensions'. You then demand they should be sacked, if nothing else to make an example.

My opinion of you is a thoroughly unpleasant character. A ill-informed bully, who always knows best.
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Sat 7 May 11 at 15:45
       
 Sat 7 May 11 17:57 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Pat
Ireally thought the idea of a discussion forum was to attack the post and not the poster.

Sad to see MLC cannot even do this correctly.

Pat
       
 Sat 7 May 11 14:12 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Armel Coussine
>> monumental balls-up at my place,

Was there a monumental balls-up by any of the emergency services after the London bombings Iffy? Surely not. Here was a quite exceptional situation that overstretched everyone for a few hours. Huge numbers of people were involved.

Armies allow for a certain percentage of friendly fire casualties in battlefield situations. No one thinks of a few of those as a monumental balls-up. They just happen in the heat of battle. And the sort of h&s laws and rules that may have hampered some fire service rescue people for a while are just the sort of thing you would praise in another context. MLC explains this.

Unfair Iffy.
      3  
 Sat 7 May 11 14:50 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - DP
Maybe over-simplifying things, but I would have thought the entirety of the blame around 7/7 should lie squarely at the door of the cowards who went there with the bombs, and the twisted, hate-filled specimens who put them up to it.
The time, money and energy spent subsequently vilifying the emergency services would have been better spent finding these extremists, and booting them and their bile out of the country.
I'm not saying the emergency services did everything perfectly, but it doesn't matter what planning you have in place, the sheer chaos of a major terrorist attack means people have to think on their feet and react to the unfolding events around them.
For what it's worth, I think you would need to be sub-human to be in a blazing tube tunnel with the dead and dying around you, and thinking about your pension / T's and C's. I don't believe many human beings would even be capable of this, let alone belong to a culture of it.
      1  
 Sat 7 May 11 15:01 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Armel Coussine
>> the cowards who went there with the bombs,

I agree they are the main culprits DP, but although you can call them quite a few uncomplimentary things I don't really think 'cowards' is one of them.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 15:46 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - DP
>> I agree they are the main culprits DP, but although you can call them quite
>> a few uncomplimentary things I don't really think 'cowards' is one of them.

If you blow up a large number of innocent people who are completely unaware of what you intend to do, and therefore not given a chance to be elsewhere, or defend themselves, that's pretty cowardly in my book. Along the lines of sneaking up on someone and shooting them in the back.
The suicide bit is just brainwashing.
      2  
 Sat 7 May 11 16:03 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Armel Coussine
>> The suicide bit is just brainwashing.

We can't really discuss these things meaningfully because they don't make sense to us.

All the same, it seems to me that brainwashed or not, it would take physical courage to go through with a suicide bombing. The act is dastardly, malevolent, indiscriminate and stupid, it may involve levels of delusion one can't imagine, but (to me anyway) not cowardly as such.

Sometimes I believe these people chicken out and don't go through with it. That is both cowardly and admirable. Funny old world, eh?
       
 Sat 7 May 11 14:53 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Zero
Now I know the emergency services practice for events like this, but with a tube system that is in use almost constantly its really not possible to plan, practice and predict stuff on the scale that happened. Given that, emergency crews on the scene and London tube staff, did an excellent job in the circumstances. Its fair to question and check if those bodies have incorporated lessons learned since the event, but its not fair to question the motives of those involved at the time on the scene and those trying to make sense and decisions behind the scene.

Another thing that gets on my small blue breasted garden birds, is the blame heaped upon the security services "because they should have stopped it" Yeah they could, but you really really wouldn't like the severe restrictions on your freedom, liberty and the inability to go about your daily business. If Bin laden had turned out to be living in Luton, then you can squeak. Until then keep your trap shut and defeat these people in the only way possible, carry on with your life. Its not as tho we haven't been doing it for the last 40 years.
      4  
 Sat 7 May 11 16:55 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Bromptonaut
I don't know why I persist with this but what facts, as found by Hallett LJ, support the opinios you expressed about the emergency services.
       
 Sat 7 May 11 23:09 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Fullchat
The job of the emergency services in particular the Police is to try to bring order out of chaos. No easy feat.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing particularly when expressed by the nine to five shudders.
       
 Sun 8 May 11 06:20 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
In this thread mlc has called me:

"An idiot and an offensive one at that."

"The worst kind of person."

"Not fit to clear away the b***** bandages."

"My opinion of you is a thoroughly unpleasant character."

"A ill-informed bully, who always knows best."

Not to mention a host of other Pig-ignorant insults, both professional and personal, woven into the posts.

I'v called him nothing at all, yet I'm supposed to be the bully.

You couldn't make it up.

I was going to say you wouldn't want to be nicked by mlc, but you would actually.

Claim you worked for the Daily Mail, wait for the red mist to descend and just reel him in.

A final point, I thought we had a no-name calling policy on here.

Quoting:

House Rules: The following posts or content are not allowed:
1. Personal insults.

www.car4play.com/terms/house_rules.htm

      1  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:08 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
Truth hurts does it?

And you still haven't said how YOU would have reacted or how the emergency services should have done things differently. We're still waiting for your expert knowledge.
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:18 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...Truth hurts does it?...

Now what would you know about truth?


      4  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:09 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Zero
Now Now

No hiding behind Mummies skirts. You are not adverse to a bit a name calling from time to time.
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:14 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - BiggerBadderDave
I think you should both solve this like Oliver Reed would. Oil up and wrestle.
      5  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:19 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Zero
Oh god forbid no! that thought of Iffy and MLC naked and oiled has fair turned me off my breakfast pastries and fresh coffee.
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:16 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...You are not adverse to a bit a name calling from time to time...

I don't get the chance, when I called someone 'a clown' a few weeks ago, the post was moderated straight away.

The same rule applied equally to everyone is best.

But I'm afraid the moderators play favourites.

Either that or they are frightened of mlc because he's a copper.

Or perhaps they are all on holiday.

      1  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:24 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
I'm still waiting for your expert advice to this post:

The emergency services use Airwave radios. A multi-million pound white elephant that hasn't worked properly since it was introduced. It can't receive a signal in a building, never mind an underground tunnel. So there you are, sat at the entrance of an underground station, knowing that multiple bombs have gone off. Multiple, confused reports coming in of where and how severe. Other multiple reports of further bombers on the loose. Public, injured and uninjured screaming at you for help and guidance. London grinding to a halt, hampering emergency vehicles getting to scenes. The radio system overloaded. Casualty stations to be set up. Hundreds of injured to be attended to. Officers trying to attend hospitals to secure clothing and samples. Trying to ensure the right leg went with the right torso. The decisions made by quite junior personnel was quite astounding on the day. They deserve huge amounts of credit.

So come on, tell me how you'd do it differently.

You have received a report of explosions on the underground..nothing more.

How would you decide where to set up the RVs. How would you solve the overloaded radio issues. How would you determine who went where. How would you filter out the thousands of calls, deciding which was factual and which was not. How would you determine what type of device it was. How would you determine if and where and secondary devices were planted. Where would you set up your C+C posts. Where would you set up your casualty clearing stations. Who would you send to the scene and who to the hospitals. How would you secure the evidnence. Who is going to be responsible for answering thousands of calls from concerned relatives of every person travelling in London that day. Where are the most serious casualties located. How do you find out how many casualties there are. How badly injured are they.

Hang on..there's another report of an explosion in a street now. What resources do you divert. Where do you get those resources from. You've run out. There's nobody left. Whose going to secure the scene. Where is the next explosion going to happen.

Now you can't sit in your comfy armchair doing this. I want the answer NOW. Just to make it a bit more realistic. Grt a dozen people shouting in your face all asking for instruction. Now turn up all the radios in your house and listen, register and record what they're all saying.

I'm sure your that good, you'll be able to stop and think about your cushy job and pension.
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Sun 8 May 11 at 09:25
      1  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:38 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
mlc,

Do you really expect me to take any notice of someone who insults me?

Put it another way, if you stop a driver, and he calls you all the names under the sun, do you take any notice of him?

Your remarks to me have been most unpleasant.

Other posters will make light of that - it's all bread and circuses to them - but the fact remains you set out to be as hurtful as possible.

I've been attacked by far better men than you, and in nearly every respect I'm not bothered by your posts, despite their nastiness.

But please don't expect me to treat you with anything other than contempt.


       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:30 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - R.P.
Well, I was (for one) was involved in other stuff most of yesterday and didn't get a chance to visit or post. Having read through it now, whilst I agree with iffy that this shouldn't have resorted to name calling, no "offensive post" reporting was received from you or anyone else about this thread - of which I'm surprised. It's going to be a nightmare to take a hatchet to this now (and no, I didn't edit your "clown" remark, maybe I would or maybe I wouldn't, in the same way as maybe I would have taken steps on this earlier on in this thread if I'd have had the time). Anyway having read it I my opinion there was fault on both sides - some stirring, some over-generalization and some name calling - which was wrong. I had a quick glance at this just before going to bed and there was an intake of breath. Two options if you feel that strongly about it we'll remove the lot or we let it stand and draw a line under it. Personally I'd go down the sticks and stones route - but that's me.

Or alternative 3 having just crossed posts with MLC we debate it in a civilized way without any rancour.

Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 8 May 11 at 09:36
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:38 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - BiggerBadderDave
"Or alternative 3..."

Disappointed that you didn't take the wrestling option seriously.
      4  
 Sun 8 May 11 09:41 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
If I have any say, then please leave the thread as it is.

       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:43 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - R.P.
Of course you have a say iffy - oh the wrestling alternative is there if you want it :-)
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:53 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...Of course you have a say iffy...

I suppose you could lock it.

Not something I'm normally in favour of, but it would draw a line under an unpleasant episode.

I expect those that wanted to have a say have done so by now.

And if the story moves on, we could always have another thread, so no one can complain of censorship.

       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:56 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - R.P.
OK - before its locked do you want to respond to MLC's question ?
       
 Sun 8 May 11 09:56 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - midlifecrisis
The only 'hurtful' post on this thread is the remark that dedicated men and women on that dreadful day were thinking of 'their cushy jobs and pensions'.

Iffy. You don't answer my questions because you can't. You see a simple fact that a bomb has just gone off and people should rush in and carry the wounded to safety. No other considerations, it's all black and white.

You don't know how to answer. I'm sure you were totally ignorant of everything else that has to be done and considered. All these points are ignored, not just by you, but by all the other 'journalists' who like to make tacky, cheap, nasty points.

You further comment that in your organisation, you'd have sacked people regardless to make an example. Wow! That says far more than I ever could.

       
 Sun 8 May 11 10:07 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - Iffy
...You further comment that in your organisation, you'd have sacked people regardless to make an example. Wow! That says far more than I ever could....

No, I said in my organisation heads probably would roll - it would not be me doing the sacking.

As for: "That says far more than I ever could..", I'm bound to make the same remark about your abusive comments to me.

No more to add.

       
 Sun 8 May 11 10:09 
 London bombings - unlawfully killed - R.P.
I was rather looking forward to the wrestling...but there we are.


OK - that's it for now.....thread locked.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 8 May 11 at 10:10
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