American troops yesterday killed Osama bin Laden. He wa discovered in a property about 70 miles north of the Pakistan capital Islamabad. The Pakistan authorities were not told about the operation until it was over.
No Americans were harmed during the operation.
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"Osama bin Laden Is Dead"
Are you sure he didn't "pass away" or "cross over"
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...Troll...
Who? Bin Liner?
Now that is a theory.
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Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice!
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...Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice!...
I remember one of the great West Indian cricket fast bowlers talking about the importance of knocking over the England captain.
The bowler said: "We find that when you cut off the head, the body withers."
We shall see.
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Not sure what will actually change if anything. His obituary is worth a read. Perhaps he will feature on Last Word next week !
17th out of 52 children - Saudi TV must be rubbish.
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I thought it was a wind up at first but its true, www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676
As said above the organisation is so big that I really doubt this will make much difference.
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Dragging Bin Laden out of there feet first satisfies the Amercians' understandable desire for vengeance.
But they have also denied themselves the opportunity of interrogating him.
I don't know if he could have been persuaded to 'sing like a canary', but had he done so, the Americans could have wiped up a lot more of the bad guys.
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Well there was resistance so the plan may have been to not kill him but arrest him, but they were left with no choice but to kill him.
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Not sure it's that good - all his buddies will now be looking to avenge his death, all trying to out-do each other in a bid for his job. One of them will have a plan that tops 9/11.
Tin hats on in London and other cities for a while I'd say...and another reason to rejoice that you don't live in the States!
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 2 May 11 at 09:07
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Reports that he has already been buried at sea. Would both comply with Islamic tradition of burial within 24 hours of death and also stop his grave becoming a shrine
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Exactly Smokie, we will now have countless number of groups wanting to be the big one and proving to each other that they can.
Bit like taking Saddam out of Iraq.
World is going to get more dangerous for a good while.
On a different note, I take it this has absolutely nothing to do with the recent allocation of huge funds to Pakistan from Britiain?
And just heard on the news it says they have buried his body at sea already??? I smell a huge rat!!!
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No doubt that they wanted to capture him.
Aside from the intelligence, it would have been nice to have thought of him rotting in a cage somewhere, with occasional photos to show him growing old in his prison uniform.
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>> 17th out of 52 children - Saudi TV must be rubbish.
When there's no porn, you have to make your own.
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So, now what we have is lots of fractured leaderless splinter cells about which the yanks have little intelligence, little control, and even less understanding. And now another cause and another martyr.
Whereas you had one leadership regime where you had lots of knowledge, lots of intel, probably some plants, some degree of control and a good understanding built up over a number of years and really not much to rally the cause.
In the scheme of things our American friends are really not that bright at all.
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It was rather flawed....not good outcomes likely.
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So what should the US do?.
After years of searching they find Bin Laden, a man responsible for the death of thousands and whom they have sworn to bring to justice. They can hardly say. "Let's just leave him alone because seizing or killing him might make thinks worse" I doubt that would go down too well with the victims of 9/11 or indeed the London bombings.
I say congratulations to the US and to their special forces team
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>> that would go down too well with the victims of 9/11 or indeed the London
>> bombings.
Does his death bring them back? How about with some alternative thinking, being able to prevent lots more of them? How about with some alternative thinking being able to slowly strangle and kill it for good.
Wasted opportunities.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 10:00
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How could a President of the USA, knowing where Bin Laden was, take any other decision that to order his seizure?
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>> In the scheme of things our American friends are really not that bright at all.
I think that they deserve a bit more credit than they are given. I reckon on the morning of September 12th, few people would have believed you if you'd said that there wouldn't be another attack on US soil in the next 10 years.
I think they have done an excellent job with their intelligence and military operations targeting terrorists. They have clearly suppressed their ability to launch further attacks, which is good going, given that there is no central command, and rather just a number of groups (even individuals) wanting to carry out attacks.
Somebody will get through eventually, of course.
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>> >> In the scheme of things our American friends are really not that bright at
>> all.
>>
>> I think that they deserve a bit more credit than they are given. I reckon
>> on the morning of September 12th, few people would have believed you if you'd said
>> that there wouldn't be another attack on US soil in the next 10 years.
>>
>> I think they have done an excellent job with their intelligence and military operations targeting
>> terrorists. They have clearly suppressed their ability to launch further attacks, which is good going,
>> given that there is no central command, and rather just a number of groups (even
>> individuals) wanting to carry out attacks.
>>
>> Somebody will get through eventually, of course.
I think you are are wrong, and all the Americans have done is caused chaos, destabilised governments, and provided cause, opportunity and means for the terrorist faction to grow, prosper operate and flourish. If it wasn't for America, and its policies, Osama wouldn't have existed.
Its a piece of cake to make the states safe. Little of it has been inteligence led, but all by means of controlling entry. In a country where a Muslim is a person to hate, they stick out like sore thumbs. Add to that draconian rules and processes for even getting into or over the country and you have it taped.
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>> I think you are are wrong, and all the Americans have done is caused chaos,
>> destabilised governments, and provided cause, opportunity and means for the terrorist faction to grow, prosper
>> operate and flourish. If it wasn't for America, and its policies, Osama wouldn't have existed.
Depends what you mean.
If you mean that because Bin Laden was fighting the Russians and the CIA were funding the opposition, then you are suggesting that you can never work with locals to tackle a threat, in case one of them turns bad.
If you mean because they intervened in Kuwait, putting their troops on Saudi soil, and therefore triggering Bin Laden's actions, then you are suggesting that we can never intervene to help others, even when asked, in case some 3rd party gets annoyed and uses it to excuse terrorism.
>> Its a piece of cake to make the states safe. Little of it has been
>> inteligence led, but all by means of controlling entry. In a country where a Muslim
>> is a person to hate, they stick out like sore thumbs. Add to that draconian
>> rules and processes for even getting into or over the country and you have it
>> taped.
Firstly, none of us really knows what has gone on behind the scenes.
Secondly, I don't know why you would suggest that keeping the US safe is a piece of cake (more so, if you extend it to US interests abroad, including airliners). It is not as if the US is somehow locked down like Saudi or North Korea. You can pretty freely move in and out of it, with long borders and fairly soft targets.
I think it is much more difficult than you imagine, and therefore they have done an amazing job.
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"Secondly, I don't know why you would suggest that keeping the US safe is a piece of cake (more so, if you extend it to US interests abroad, including airliners). It is not as if the US is somehow locked down like Saudi or North Korea. You can pretty freely move in and out of it, with long borders and fairly soft targets."
Completely wrong. It has air travel locked down. US interest abroad don't really matter in the scheme of things as long as the homeland is safe. Its borders are not really soft, they may look it, but they are not. The ideal scenario is to keep the homeland safe for ma and pa back home, and america abroad slightly risky to facilitate a large healthy defence budget, and all the industry subsidy benefits that brings.
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>> Completely wrong. It has air travel locked down. US interest abroad don't really matter in
>> the scheme of things as long as the homeland is safe. Its borders are not
>> really soft, they may look it, but they are not. The ideal scenario is to
>> keep the homeland safe for ma and pa back home, and america abroad slightly risky
>> to facilitate a large healthy defence budget, and all the industry subsidy benefits that brings.
No, I can't agree with that. It is very easy to get into the US, and air travel is not locked down (it is as secure as they can make it, of course, but hardly locked down).
There are still millions of foreign visitors each year, including from countries all over the world. More importantly, there are a large number of US citizens, who could be, or who already have, been radicalised.
The US, and other countries, seem to have been very proactive in identifying risks and eliminating them.
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>> There are still millions of foreign visitors each year, including from countries all over the
>> world. More importantly, there are a large number of US citizens, who could be, or
>> who already have, been radicalised.
Yes and every one of the millions of visitors is checked before they even get on a plane bound for the States.
Large number of radicalised Americans? No sorry that's a complete fantasy. NO idea where you got that from.
>> The US, and other countries, seem to have been very proactive in identifying risks and
>> eliminating them.
Indeed they have, and they have now compromised it. That's the point.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 10:31
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I see I'm not the only one who thinks this could be a Pyrrhic triumph, at least in the short term.
The politicians including ours are saying its a good thing, but they have to work now with the situation as it is, and keep solid with the US, so how honest can they be?
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>>Depends what you mean.
>>If you mean that because Bin Laden was fighting the Russians and the CIA were funding the >>opposition, then you are suggesting that you can never work with locals to tackle a threat, in >>case one of them turns bad.
Yes exactly, It had nothing to do with the yanks what was happening there, should have kept their noses out.
>>If you mean because they intervened in Kuwait, putting their troops on Saudi soil, and therefore >>triggering Bin Laden's actions,
You have you history slightly out of kilter there, Osama was already a published threat by the time of the Kuwait invasion.
What else do I mean?
The second invasion of Iraq, destabilised the entire region.
The invasion of Afghanistan destabilised the entire region.
Its slavish acceptance of Israels policies.
The Americans have no idea of guile, diplomacy, control by knowledge, Its all firepower. Brute force and ignorance.
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'The Americans have no idea of guile, diplomacy, control by knowledge, Its all firepower. Brute force and ignorance. '
Are you American Zero?
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>> 'The Americans have no idea of guile, diplomacy, control by knowledge, Its all firepower. Brute
>> force and ignorance. '
>>
>>
>> Are you American Zero?
You know the answer, so what's your real point?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 11:01
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>> Yes exactly, It had nothing to do with the yanks what was happening there, should
>> have kept their noses out.
It's a reasonable point of view, but it does mean that we shouldn't intervene anywhere (Libya for example).
Perhaps the action is Libya will prevent a slaughter of civilians. But if, a decade or so from now, one of the resistance leaders turns into a UK hating terrorist and attacks us, it will be our fault for having ever been on his side.
>> You have you history slightly out of kilter there, Osama was already a published threat
>> by the time of the Kuwait invasion.
Not in terms of having a grudge against the West. Have a read of this.
tinyurl.com/5ub7l3d
True, that if it hadn't have been for the involvement in Afghanistan, then he may never have gained the power that he did, but that, again, comes down to the idea that you can never intervene anywhere, in case somebody eventually turns bad.
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>> True, that if it hadn't have been for the involvement in Afghanistan, then he may
>> never have gained the power that he did, but that, again, comes down to the
>> idea that you can never intervene anywhere, in case somebody eventually turns bad.
Its a valid point of view. Since the second world war, Intervention has solved nothing and left lasting problems, almost without exception*
* I can only think of two positive outcomes. Malaysia, and the Balkans, tho i suspect the Balkans would have resolved itself. Its not a glowing litany of successes now is it.
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>> Its a valid point of view. Since the second world war, Intervention has solved nothing
>> and left lasting problems, almost without exception*
Yes, it certainly is a valid point of view.
It could be argued that by not intervening, things could turn out worse, but it is impossible to really predict what would have happened.
I personally would prefer that the West didn't intervene in many things (Libya included) unless there is a clear risk that eventually points back to us.
Hard as it might be to watch, I would prefer to see Gaddafi slaughtering Libyans, than having it come back to haunt us.
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>> Hard as it might be to watch, I would prefer to see Gaddafi slaughtering Libyans,
>> than having it come back to haunt us.
We are in agreement. I tend to think that the Gaddafi slaughtering spree would have been shorter and less fierce, all we have done I think is promote and extend it.
As you say, if you intervene and change the way things are going, you have no idea where they may have gone if left alone. All that's known is you rarely get the outcome you intended when you do intervene.
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>> We are in agreement. I tend to think that the Gaddafi slaughtering spree would have
>> been shorter and less fierce, all we have done I think is promote and extend
>> it.
At least we aren't getting involved in Syria. It sounds pretty bad for anybody involved in the protests, and maybe anybody who just happens to be in the area, and they did kill 20 to 30 thousand in Hama, so the family have form, but it would only cause us a headache in the long term.
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>> What else do I mean?
>>
>> The second invasion of Iraq, destabilised the entire region.
Perhaps Iraq shouldn't have pretended to have weapons of mass destruction.
>> The invasion of Afghanistan destabilised the entire region.
Perhaps Afghanistan shouldn't have sheltered Al Qaeda. There were giving a chance to hand them over.
>> Its slavish acceptance of Israels policies.
I don't disagree with this. It's unfortunate that mindless religious masses provide so much influence, and that Obama is not able or prepared to tackle it.
>> The Americans have no idea of guile, diplomacy, control by knowledge, Its all firepower. Brute
>> force and ignorance.
I think this is a common misconception. I think they have all of that in spades, it is just that sophisticated but are, in fact, not prepared to put themselves on the line.
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Ok how about this for an option.
You find Osama. Now what to do.
1/
Capture him alive and wisk him out of the country, stuff him in a cell somewhere and torture, or trick every secret he has out of him. However TELL NO - ONE. The info is useless if you do. The extra communication chatter while your enemy try to figure out whats happend, and all the extra noise will provide excelent intel. Plus they are rudderless for a long while and know not why.
2/
Ok so stuff happens, and Osama died in the kidnap attempt. Still the same tho, TELL NO-ONE. You get all the benefits of 1 above minus the info wrung out of the boss.
3/
Find him, kill him, and TELL THE WORLD. you get no benefit from it to prevent future terrorism, but at least you get elected next time because you did something that George Bush couldn't do.
Who cares if you have to deal with all the increased mess in the next term, hey its only 4 years you can live on the fact you killed one man and you can make a packet
Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice?
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...Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice?...
Ignore internet know-alls?
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>> ...Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice?...
>>
>> Ignore internet know-alls?
A fine contribution iffy, one that is worthy of you and sums you up.
Find out what the mail says and spout that, that should make you happy. Save you the trouble of thinking.
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>> >> ...Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice
>> >> Ignore internet know-alls?
>>
>> A fine contribution iffy, one that is worthy of you and sums you up.
>> Find out what the mail says and spout that, that should make you happy. Save
>> you the trouble of thinking.
>>
History will of course prove who is right in the discussion.
I'm afraid I think it will be Zero.
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...Save you the trouble of thinking...
No, as ever you are trying to do that for all of us.
None of us can know the half of this topic.
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>> ...Save you the trouble of thinking...
>>
>> No, as ever you are trying to do that for all of us.
>>
>> None of us can know the half of this topic.
No, but we can reasonably suspect where ulterior motive comes into it, and its never far away from the ballot box. Perhaps its all out faults, the fickle voters.
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...and its never far away from the ballot box...
As far as I recall, the Americans said they would do for Bin Laden as soon as it became clear his organisation was responsible for 9/11.
That was more than nine years ago, so in that respect yesterday's development is hardly a surprise.
The president incumbent when the deed is done is bound to benefit.
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>> Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice?
The key question, I think, is whether Bin Laden had any kind of operational influence. From what I have read, it seems that he didn't.
It could well be that, if captured, he might have been able to provide information on others, and eventually lead to somebody operational, but it seems that he had little or any impact himself, aside from being a figurehead. It would make sense, because it would probably have been difficult for him to be involved in things directly and not risk a trail leading back to him, much earlier than it did.
If the guy is a figurehead, then people knowing that he is dead is, arguably, important.
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I agree Zero.
Option 3 is the WORST possible option to take.
At least the Royal wedding is over, if that had been in say a months time, then the worlds history would look VERY different...
...many leaderless countries for one thing, and a lack of British Royal family members, as well as many of the public who enjoyed the spectacle dead and injured.
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Nice that after all these years they got a result on their mission.
I expect theres a few of his cronies looking through their curtains now knowing that if they can hunt him down, they can hunt them down too. Removing the mystique of bin Laden as some sort of untouchable symbol against the West is no bad thing.
The US has the resources to find anyone it seems eventually, people with big ideas about attacking the West need to know that.
I wouldnt be too worried about attacks from bombs, they were already trying, we are just looking for them coming now unlike 2001, which is why they keep preventing things.
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>> I wouldnt be too worried about attacks from bombs, they were already trying, we are
>> just looking for them coming now unlike 2001, which is why they keep preventing things.
I've seen a few news stories about security managing to arrest people with makeshift bombs, but I don't see how we can prevent everything that is destined for us. Surely if radicalists are that hell bent on blowing something to smithereens, they would have succeeded. You can't prevent everything, the world is too big. The West gets itself into this mess because we need the commodities that they have. If we wean ourselves off oil will this be the answer? Trading with these countries is always going to have some element of risk. The middle east has had a long history of unrest and turbulence - I can't see it ever changing, it's how they are.
I blame the heat.
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Z
How about a 4th Option?
Capture him, tell everybody that you have killed him and disposed of the body at see (no evidence), and then get the electrodes out? You get the votes and the intelligence - but whether you can use intelligently is another question!
You then later put out a rumour that he still alive somewhere that he can be rescued from, and then get the communication chatter.
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>> Z
>>
>> How about a 4th Option?
>>
Well, if option 4 turns out to be true I will admire them for a tremendous piece of duplicity.
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>>
>> Now Boys and Girls, which is the rational choice?
>>
4) Tip off the Pakistanis, or better still, a rival extremist group, and let them do the dirty work and take the flak.
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>> 4) Tip off the Pakistanis, or better still, a rival extremist group, and let them
>> do the dirty work and take the flak.
They didn't tell the Pakistanis because they wouldn't have done it.
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>>
>> >> 4) Tip off the Pakistanis, or better still, a rival extremist group, and let
>> them
>> >> do the dirty work and take the flak.
>>
>> They didn't tell the Pakistanis because they wouldn't have done it.
>>
Precisely. It would demonstrate the unreliability of Pakistan as an ally in the great war against terrorism, and reinforce the legitimacy of that role being assumed by America.
"We gave them the chance to set their own house in order, now you see we shall have to do it for them."
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Reading between the lines - it isn't difficult - one has a fairly strong impression that the cousins have had the bearded loon in their crosshairs for months or years, and they have just picked their moment for this cold-blooded murder.
I can't say I'm not secretly pleased about UBL being despatched to eternal torture in the flames of hell, but I do feel a bit sorry for the wife and henchfolk.
Just another drive-by shooting in the great scheme of things. Yawn.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 3 May 11 at 13:44
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>> 4) Tip off the Pakistanis, or better still, a rival extremist group, and let them
>> do the dirty work and take the flak.
>>
Trust the Pakistanis? You must be joking.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488236/WikiLeaks-Osama-bin-Laden-protected-by-Pakistani-security.html
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>>
>>
>> Trust the Pakistanis? You must be joking.
>>
>>
I didn't say trust them - that's your word. I meant force them to come off the fence.
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>> I didn't say trust them - that's your word. I meant force them to come
>> off the fence.
>>
Sorry I misunderstood. I now get your gist from your later posts.
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>> In the scheme of things our American friends are really not that bright at all.
>>
>>
Nah, not so. They are thousands of times brighter than the many who post derogatory remarks about Americans on this forum. The American nation is a world leader in every field you can think of for that very reason.
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US military intelligence is astounding. It takes them this long to find and kill an old bloke on dialysis...
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The problem with US intelligence, is that there is so much of it streaming in, to disparate organisations with self centred motives. Its not just an American failing, its a common theme across the ages, but now worse.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 11:15
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>> US military intelligence is astounding. It takes them this long to find and kill an
>> old bloke on dialysis...
Yeah, I'm sure it would have been a piece of cake for anybody else to find one man in a country the size of Pakistan, with significant wealth and connections, if only they had been bothered to try...those bumbling Americans...jeez
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All they had to do was to join one of his terror groups and bingo :D
Bin Ladens were chums with the Bush family anyway so I'd be surprised if George Snr didn't know where he had his summer house either :)
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'Plus they are rudderless for a long while and know not why.'
Not really he's not really in any sort of operation control. He's the figure head, the cells are self contained anyway. The operational head is strongly thought to be Ayman al-Zawahiri. It's not really a 'properly' structured organisation more a tying together of groups and individuals.
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>> American troops yesterday killed Osama bin Laden.
A job well done. Fantastic news. This is how to finish operations neatly, as was with the 1988 Gibralter operation; the end of Raoul Moat, Derrick Bird, and their ilk; but unlike the capture of Saddam Hussein and the Gitmo detainees.
>>The Pakistan authorities were not told about the operation until it was over.
>>
President Bush got it wrong when he labelled North Korea, Syria and Iran as the axis of evil. He should have said Pakistan and Britainistan.
The people you can trust when the say "we are with you, comrade/brother" are first the Dutch, followed by Chinese, Indians, Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Germans, and so on until finally you have the French, Brits, Arabs, and Pakistanis.
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I doubt the Indians are near the top of a list based on national characteristics if the Pakistanis are near the bottom.
They would be much closer together.
Likewise us and the Germans, we are very alike.
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>> I doubt the Indians are near the top of a list based on national characteristics
>> if the Pakistanis are near the bottom.
>>
>> They would be much closer together.
>>
>> Likewise us and the Germans, we are very alike.
>>
>>
>>
I don't agree on either count. Visit India and Germany, and talk to the ordinary citizens and you will find they have no concept of being duplicitous. Quite the opposite of Brits and Pakistanis, to whom the trait comes naturally.
BTW, in amongst the "French, Brits, Arabs, and Pakistanis." should have added "French, Brits, Russians, Arabs, and Pakistanis."
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The Germans and Us are not alike at all. The thing that surprised German high command after the war was the depth of revelations about how duplicitous we had been, to levels the Germans could not comprehend.
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Such as?
Good Heavens, so many stories.
Not a single German Agent was active in the UK, those who were were quickly found and shot in the tower of London. A network of 200 German agents grew up in the UK, all of them fake, all of them British intelligence.
Enigma. Not only breaking the codes but keeping it secret. Not by doing things on the strength of the information, but by not doing things.
The fictional 4th Army commanded by Patton that was going to invade at Calais, believed by the Germans for some after the real invasion.
Operation Mincemeat and Commander William Martin who never existed.
That will do for now.
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I'm not sure duplicity is the term you use for deceiving your enemies. Really more appropriate when lying to your allies and surely no country could have been more duplicitous than Germany in declaring war on the Soviet Union.
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The soviet union had plenty of clues, diplomatic hints from the Germans, that they needed the oil thereabouts. The Soviet intelligence repeatedly warned Stalin it was coming, the Germans didn't even deny it. Stalin chose not to believe it, with many since taking the position that Stalin was a blind fool. Possibly the real reason is however, that Stalin knew war was inevitable, Russia wasn't ready to fight it, so he cunningly delayed.
Now who was duplicitous there? Not the Germans, but the Russians.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 15:02
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>> Now who was duplicitous there? Not the Germans, but the Russians.
Well I suppose that's one way of looking at it
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when duplicity is concerned, there is usually more than one way.
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They aren't examples of duplicity though are they?
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>> Such as?
>>
>
>> Enigma. Not only breaking the codes but keeping it secret.
>>
Enigma was broken by Polish intelligence in the 1930s.
We then let them down, as always, by failing to rescue their experts from unoccupied France, and then made up the lost ground again by cribbing enigma settings from captured U-boats.
The real heroes were the sailors who entered sinking U-boats in order to retrieve code books and enigma wheels.
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>> President Bush got it wrong when he labelled North Korea, Syria and Iran as the
>> axis of evil. He should have said Pakistan and Britainistan.
>>
>> The people you can trust when the say "we are with you, comrade/brother" are first
>> the Dutch, followed by Chinese, Indians, Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Germans, and so on until finally
>> you have the French, Brits, Arabs, and Pakistanis.
Funnily enough, there were a lot of americans in high places that were not told either. Mind I dont blame them not telling us, the world and his dog would have known in seconds.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 May 11 at 13:15
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Wow, hordes of Americans on the streets chanting USA USA. How edifying that is.
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>> Funnily enough, there were a lot of americans in high places that were not told
>> either.
>>
Hillary and husband Bill would be on my list of those top Americans not to be trusted.
red. the burial at sea - that was a masterstroke. Wfhen I heard the news of Osama's death early this morning, one of the first thoughts was "where will they bury his body? - perhaps secretly somewhere in the Afghan desert? and even then there would be risk of the burial site being found".
So a good all round operation.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 May 11 at 13:23
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Bin Rude Boy, Bin Bad Boy... good riddance to an exemplary world-class nasty bit of work. What a pity the example has been set and there are so many others around the place. Even so, one down, countless thousands of others to go. It's hard to suppress a nasty little smile of satisfaction.
I must say these international duplicity league tables and confident predictions of worse and/or better to come have cheered me up no end. Eat your hearts out Simon Schama et al. It's all been spelt out in the C4P website and in approximately 100 million other websites.
History is dead! Long live the 50-word summary of the planet's past and future with or without punctuation! Yee-HAAH!
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Was having a chat with a Romanian friend today, the Sky constant news was on in the background.
My friend's summary was they cheer today and in two weeks they'll be weeping again, have to say i tend to agree with him.
I agree with Z's summary of the events, if the US and it's various tails (us being one) didn't poke it's nose into everyone else's business there wouldn't have been half the international bloodshed.
In surburban America and Britain, Bin Laden was portrayed as a monster, i wonder how leaders of our countries are portrayed on the streets of most middle eastern suburbs...i doubt they are caricatured sporting halos.
Chicken or egg.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 2 May 11 at 14:30
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>> History is dead! Long live the 50-word summary of the planet's past and future with
>> or without punctuation! Yee-HAAH!
>>
sorry to disappoint the stuck-up twits, but the news was not broken by some Simon Schama historian, but by a twitterer:
www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8487686/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-Pakistani-man-live-tweets-deadly-raid.html
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>> sorry to disappoint the stuck-up twits, but the news was not broken by some Simon
>> Schama historian, but by a twitterer:
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8487686/Osama-bin-Laden-killed-Pakistani-man-live-tweets-deadly-raid.html
To be fair, he didn't break the news of Bin Laden's death, he broke the news that there was a helicopter in the sky.
He's hardly in line for the Pulitzer Prize...
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>> To be fair, he didn't break the news of Bin Laden's death, he broke the
>> news that there was a helicopter in the sky.
>>
In this instant world of t'internet, using American technology and American hardware/software, who cares about accuracy or correct grammar or spelling. No one but twits. The world belongs to the USA, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple, etc. and not to British twits who worry about "Long live the 50-word summary of the planet's past and future with or without punctuation! ", or "how leaders of our countries are portrayed on the streets of most middle eastern suburbs...i doubt they are caricatured sporting halos".
Britain is important to the World in these matters only so far as it gives sanctuary to so many terrorists and terrorist organisations.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 May 11 at 16:18
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>>The world belongs to the USA
Yeah, but the USA belongs to China, and the others who have bought its debt.
They'll be paying off Beijing for generations.
The US peaked as a world financial power in about 1950, since then its just been living off its credit cards. It's bought some nice hardware and luxuries mind, but it's all on the never, never.
Some of the best minds there are actually foreign, and are just there while the going is good. They'll soon be off to pastures new.
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Think you will find that a lot of networks are running on chinese hardware. The UK ones are anyway. And all the servers are made in China.
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>> sorry to disappoint the stuck-up twits
Stuck-up twits are sniggering.
Stuck-up twits aren't bitter.
Stuck-up twits are gratified
To raise an angry twitter...
(And by the way, John H my lad:
snip sentence that upset the swear filter
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 May 11 at 18:52
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>> (And by the way, John H my lad:
>>
Hehe, got under your skin, AS?
Moving on swiftly, Norman Tebbit shares my views on this matter:
"there is something jarring in the way in which the Government lavishes praise on those who rid the world of one purveyor of terrorism whilst extending praise and even armed protection to those guilty of the same crimes here. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have been unequivocal in their support of the assassination of bin Laden. They are equally unequivocal in refusing to contemplate the execution of terrorists here.
--
Of course, consistency in these matters is not easy. Hypocrisy is sometimes part of statecraft. What matters are the interests of this Kingdom. There is a strong case that the assassination of Bin Laden was in our national interest, but what worries me is the sheer smugness of some of the comments which raises doubts in my mind over whether those making them are aware of their inconsistency, or are just carried along in a buzz of words.
--
The more I think about it the more it seems to me that bin Laden was a bit of a mug not to come here and ask for political asylum.
Had he managed to get his wife and family in first he would have had a very strong case on grounds of his right to family life, and a nice house all paid for by the British taxpayers, not to mention plenty of friends in our universities."
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'Moving on swiftly' to four paragraphs of Norman Tebbit won't get you off the hook. What the old skinhead says is pretty good until the end of the second line in the second paragraph. Then it degenerates into clunking, slightly crazed polemic about immigrants, the universities and smug liberal lefties including of course the present government. As a passage it seems to me to embody the wobbly nature of Tebbit's undoubted high intelligence, a flaw really in a high government official. Does this really reflect your views John H? I'm afraid it wouldn't really surprise me. Last night I had to listen to some real academic lefties banging on about the extreme right-wing awfulness of the present government. But all these things are sent to try us, not so?
Who is AS by the way? What does the S stand for? Could it be an example of the insouciance with grammar, spelling and punctuation you said was the dominant mode for political and historical discourse in our brave new world? If so it stands alone in your posts which are written usually in clear English sentences and properly punctuated. Does this make you a twit? I think not. We both know why you write correct English: to be better understood. Like an academic historian for example, the sort of person whose pronouncements on current events are likely to be at least worth a second glance. Because the reader knows they won't be pontificating off the tops of their heads about, what was it, 'the only interest these countries have in Britain' or something of the sort. Considered opinion with references as it were, rather than vulgar-cynical generalization.
Shape up boy! You can do better.
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...into clunking, slightly crazed polemic about immigrants, the universities and smug liberal lefties...
Nothing wrong with that, if only for the reason it balances the soft liberal lefties whose opinion gets so much air time thanks to the BBC.
Didn't Spitting Image portray Tebbit as a Nazi?
Not that we have anything in common with Germans, of course.
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"Every time a British soldier dies, there's a song in my heart"
(The American Jewish playwright Ben Hecht ).
"Every time a Muslim terrorist dies, there's a song in MY heart"
(Me).
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What always struck me about Bin Laden was his face always wore an expression of serene gentleness - obviously an object lesson in not judging a book by its cover. I'm glad that the Americans see it as a positive. But I feel that there are dark days ahead.
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>> I'm glad that the Americans see it as a positive. But I feel that there
>> are dark days ahead.
>>
Everyone agrees that there are dark days ahead. I am glad you said "I feel" rather than the "I fear" that some on here would have used.
Nothing to fear, because otherwise they have won - fear is their weapon and fear is what they want to engender in the Western population whose lifestyle they despise so much.
Be a man, show true grit, be a true Brit.
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>> Everyone agrees that there are dark days ahead.
There have always been dark days ahead and there always will be, until the last day for the last human.
>> Be a man, show true grit, be a true Brit.
Thanks so much. We needed that. Now we can face the future with renewed courage. If we find ourselves quailing before the foe, though, can we come back for some more piffling empty exhortations?
Are you a prep school teacher by any chance John H?
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>> Are you a prep school teacher by any chance John H?
>>
Of course, I am.
Mustn't allow b* heart liberal children to get away with dangerous pacifist thoughts, no, we mustn't.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 May 11 at 22:14
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>> Mustn't allow b* heart liberal children to get away with dangerous pacifist thoughts, no, we mustn't.
Heh heh... in my day it wouldn't have occurred to anyone that children might have pacifist tendencies. And on the whole they didn't. Most adults didn't either.
But at the tail end of the ww2 period some teachers used to pump out that sort of traditional-chauvinist carp in a way one couldn't quite buy even at the age of nine or ten. They meant well of course, but they sounded dumb although one didn't really let oneself think that. (Teachers who had been commandos and things didn't do it in that way of course. They were much cooler about all that. They knew what it all meant at the sharp end).
Actually JH there's a kernel of something genuine in it somewhere. But it may be something best left unstated except on the actual battlefield. See what I mean? The British actually rather specialize in the important unsaid.
Sorry I was a bit rude above. A bit sorry anyway.
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Never allowed the various Irish nationalists to frighten me from going where I wanted.
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Nor me, not the Irish or the others. Worked in london for years during the various bombings,.
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>> "Every time a Muslim terrorist dies, there's a song in MY heart"
(Me).
I imagine the silly anglophobe Ben Hecht (must have been speaking in the late forties or early fifties when the British were in Palestine suffering Zionist terrorism) would agree with you there Roger.
Can I point out gently that the word 'Muslim' could be taken out of that sentence to its general benefit? Unless you are a supporter of some other terrorism of course.
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>> Nothing wrong with that, if only for the reason it balances the soft liberal lefties whose opinion gets so much air time thanks to the BBC.
There is something wrong with it actually Iffy. The way to deal with smug liberal-left opinion, where you regard it as incorrect or annoying, is to criticize it directly, as it were on its own terms. In any case it is at worst annoying on an immediate level.
Pressing tabloid-style racist or xenophobic buttons, on the other hand, is malevolent and potentially harmful in its own right. One doesn't want to rehearse once again the arguments against this sort of thing which are obvious enough to a person of intelligence (even one with a soft spot for the Daily Mail). Suffice it to say that it doesn't 'balance' anything. On the contrary it is socially destabilizing.
This sort of thread can so easily become a morass of bad faith and non-communication. One needs to tread carefully however tempting it is to state one's worldview in a couple of pithy sentences. The necessary generalizations and elisions of crucial detail leave one open to misunderstanding. Others will be quick to misunderstand.
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>> Who is AS by the way? What does the S stand for?
>>
Sorry, I was thinking of the S word which got censored twice in your post that I was replying to.
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Ah, bless... I thought it might be something like that.
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International reaction:
Pakistan Foreign Office
The death of bin Laden is a "major setback to terrorist organisations around the world".
"This operation was conducted by the US Forces in accordance with declared US policy that Osama bin Laden will be eliminated in a direct action by the US forces, wherever found in the world."
Yousuf Raza Gilani - Pakistani prime minister
We will not allow our soil to be used against any other country for terrorism and therefore I think it's a great victory, it's a success and I congratulate the success of this operation.
Hamid Karzai - Afghan president
The killing of bin Laden is very "important news".
The Taliban must learn a lesson from this. The Taliban should refrain from fighting.
The war against terrorism is in its sources, in its financial sources, its sanctuaries, in its training bases, not in Afghanistan
Ehsanullah Ehsan - Pakistani Taliban spokesman
If he has been martyred, we will avenge his death and launch attacks against American and Pakistani governments and their security forces.
Ismail Haniyeh - head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip
We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him
mercy with the true believers and the martyrs.
We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood.
Ghassan Khatib - Palestine Authority spokesman
Getting rid of Bin Laden is good for the cause of peace worldwide but what counts is to overcome the discourse and the methods - the violent methods - that were created and encouraged by bin Laden and others in the world.
Binyamin Netanyahu - Israeli prime minister
This is a resounding triumph for justice, freedom and the values shared by all democratic nations fighting shoulder to shoulder in determination against terrorism.
The state of Israel joins together in the joy of the American people after the liquidation of bin Laden.
Saad Hariri - Lebanon's prime minister
The history of our nationalism and Islam will never forgive that man who was a black mark for two decades, filling the minds of youngsters with ideas about terrorism, murder and destruction.
Ramin Mehmanparast - Iran's foreign ministry spokesman
US and their allies have no more excuse to deploy forces in the Middle East under pretext of fighting terrorism.
Hmmm, tough to argue with that last comment.
But more telling is this comment
P Chidambaram - Indian home minister
We take note with grave concern that part of the statement in which President Obama said that the firefight in which Osama bin Laden was killed took place in Abbottabad "deep inside Pakistan".
This fact underlines our concern that terrorists belonging to different organisations find sanctuary in Pakistan.
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Ghassan Khatib's is the most sensible comment.
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given where bin laden was found it seems unlikely that pakistani government didnt know that they were harbouring him
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>> given where bin laden was found it seems unlikely that pakistani government didnt know that
>> they were harbouring him
>>
The Government might not have known, but you can be certain that the ISI certainly knew.
I note that the Pakistani High Commissioner to UK is trying his best to take the mantle of "comical Ali" of Iraq. He started practising his new role during the cricketing match fixing scandal.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 May 11 at 22:18
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Just listened to the World Tonight on R4 as usual excellent analysis, the most impressive speaker wasn't the line up of politicians and "experts" but a Kenyan blinded in the 1998 US Embassy blast....a humbling and articulate summary of his feelings as a victim....what surprised me was his dismissal of street celebrations in the US. Worth a Listen Again.
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The times did a nice piece today
A one page obituary on Osama, followed by a 5 page obituary and tightly spaced list of names of those who died in Al Queasy inspired attacks.
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Good you got this b a s t a r d now you know where the rest are get them too & stop messing about.!
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Am sure all those hundreds of millions that we are giving to Pakistan's education system will teach them some geography lessons ..........
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...Ghassan Khatib's is the most sensible comment...
But the least sensible name.
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What a bizarre comment.
I expect John Smith sounds silly to native Arabic speakers.
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>> I expect John Smith sounds silly to native Arabic speakers.
Not just silly but positively sinister and sinful. To be found plastered all over containers of, gasp, puke, alcoholic beverages!
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I suppose there's at least one less virgin in Paradise today.
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>> Ghassan Khatib's is the most sensible comment.
Quite PU. Would that there were a few more like him.
I still miss Zaki Badawi, Egyptian by origin and a proper, learned Imam. He lived here and was regularly a guest on Newsnight and the like to comment on issues of this sort.
These days they are just as likely to have some demented yobbish ignoramus who can't resist trying to get up the European nose. The best commentators at the moment are both of Iranian extraction and both stand-up comedians, one of each gender. But of course they lack real gravitas by definition, which matters to a lot of people. There are other serious people who get it right, but they are less memorable.
My good Iraqi buddy, himself a Marxizing atheist, tells me that Shias (which nearly all Iranians are, along with the Iraqi majority) are more radical, honest and straightforward than Sunnis. He should know what he's talking about being of mixed confessional extraction.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 3 May 11 at 19:28
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>> These days they are just as likely to have some demented yobbish ignoramus who can't resist trying to get up the European nose.
Case in point last night indeed: Jeremy Paxman had Taj Hargey, an Imam and Muslim educator, and that fellow Chaudhuri who belongs to some Islamist group and who has often been seen before. He is of course a demented yobbish ignoramus, but is clearly of British upbringing and sounds superficially quite reasonable.
Taj Hargey on the other hand, probably less used to being on TV - a fairly hideous experience for the uninitiated - sounded hesitant and less articulate, and to many probably seemed to lose the encounter. To any sane person who listened to their discourse, however, it was absolutely no contest. Hargey has a piece on the letters page of today's Terrorflag that I recommend. Among other things he trashes the idea of sharia law for Muslims or anyone else as ridiculously out of date and out of touch as well as contrary to Islam's founding text. As of course are the misogyny and abuse of women and children that form part of the mainstream 'radical' Islamist line.
Anyone who takes a fairly detailed skim through a translation of the Koran will see immediately that a lot of what these 'militants' say is distinctly non-Islamic. It is political ideology made up by unpleasant westernized opportunists for political purposes. The tragedy is that many ordinary Muslims are cowed and intimidated by these people and their thuggish followers.
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Amusing of them. And they are right of course, it was a murder and pretty cold-blooded.
Perhaps they are among the minority that thinks cold-blooded murder is always a bad thing. Most sensible people think it may sometimes not be so bad.
Heads of government sometimes have to square it with their consciences. Most of us would find that something of a problem. And that, children, is one of several reasons why most of us wouldn't stand a chance of becoming a head of government.
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An alternative for Osama had they captured him alive would be:
- Take to Guantanamo Bay
- Setup trial
- Conduct the trial and find him guilty - he'd already admitted on video to most of what he was accused of
- Execute him
I guess they jumped to the final step and saved some money and maybe some lives.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 4 May 11 at 21:45
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Whether it was technically legal to bump him off or not (John Bellinger, a former senior lawyer in the Bush administration says it was as Al Qaeda was at war with the US and taking out the leader of your enemy in such case is permissable) I have no problem with it. The world will never be a perfect place and sometimes you have to fight dirty.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Wed 4 May 11 at 22:04
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If he was clothed then he could have been wearing a bomb - I guess that might be why they shot him in the head. Training. But there could have been a button nearby that would have blown the whole place up for all the troops knew.
I think the outcome was the best there could have been.
EDIT: Just seen this Telegraph link/story ;-)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8492908/Commandos-told-to-kill-Osama-bin-Laden-because-of-fears-he-was-wearing-suicide-vest.html
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 4 May 11 at 22:07
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On Monday morning after telling my wife and step-son that Osama had been killed, my wife said.... 'rubber dinghy rapids'....
Anyone who hasn't seen Four Lions won't get the joke. But in the film two of the terrorists fire a rocket launcher in the wrong direction. During the credits it is said Osama had been killed by them basically ;-)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifDvI9M6pME&feature=related
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo6upE1K84Q
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We watched it some time ago - not as funny as I expected it to be, some classic "moments" though. According to one newspaper old UBL was known for giving rabbits `(or chickens with ears) to local kids in the town.
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PU you're right it wasn't as funny as I expected either but some classic bits and we liked 'rubber dinghy rapids'. And those were rabbits without ears not chickens ;-)
And another information message - never do the Heimlich Manoeuvre on a terrorist that may be wearing a bomb.
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The only laugh out loud moments were those you mention, the crow and the Predator thing. I wondered whether the Rubber Dinghy Rapids thing was some oblique reference to the July 7th Bombers' trip white water rafting in Wales....maybe not.
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Probably right there with the ref PU. But the Rapids things is now in my memory with the actors voice. And the rabbits without ears.
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I was slightly disappointed in the whole thing.
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In the widely published photograph of Team Obama at mission control watching the results come in, is Hilary Clinton really gasping anxiously on a cigarette?
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Very good.
We'll never know. They release the photograph, but the doubt remains.
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It's something in the guy's ,whose wearing the blue shirt, pocket.It looks Census reminder card to me.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 5 May 11 at 12:51
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I had the same thought, but saw that it was a name tag I think on the guy's shirt.
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I've just noticed that the girl at the back is looking lovingly at the bloke in front of her, whereas everyone else is looking at the screen.
It's a moment for posterity - Where were you when you heard of OBL's death?
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Loved the joke in the Telegraph today....
How come the Pakistanis can manage to get their bins taken out on a Monday...... and we can't.
Or the Irish SAS team who stormed Debenhams cos they heard Bed Linen was on the second floor.........
Coat and taxi please.......
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There was a guy called Osama
Who created an awful drama
He wouldn't behave
So they bombed out his cave
And the credit all goes to Obama.
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>> joke in the Telegraph today....
The one that made me laugh was the Matt cartoon on an inside page. 'We considered releasing our holiday photos but they were a bit too gruesome.' Chapeau!
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"The government is hinting that there could be an additional Summer Bank holiday to celebrate the death of bin Laden"
All together now.......
"We're all going on Osama holiday....
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Two notable items in today's Telegraph. One the front-page news item in which most politicos seem to be criticizing the Archbishop of Canterbury for disapproving of murder. And a very, very good piece on the main comment page by Peter Oborne, datelined Islamabad, entitled: 'Dismissing our enemies as lunatics will get us nowhere'. Highly recommended.
I used to disapprove strongly of Oborne who at one time seemed both soppy and far-right in his attitudes. No longer though. He's shaping up as an absolutely top hack, both as reporter and commentator. All is forgiven.
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Far right is good - i.e proper Conservative, not today's slightly right of centre wets.
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Al-Qaeda say Bin Laden's blood 'will not be wasted'.
This tends to support the contention reports of his death were not exaggerated.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201
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I am not sorry he died, and that he might have been unarmed and offering no threat. I am rather saddened by the bleeding heart liberals being wheeled out to protest about the killing of an unarmed man. Do they not remember that in ~1980 the SAS stormed the Iranian embassy and freed a large number of hostage, and during the operation they effectively executed all but one of the Iranian terrorists? Was there outrage? No. Heydrich, a key originator of the Nazi final solution, was killed by partisans. Do people condemn the partisans? I think this criticism of the US Navy seals is mild anti-American racism and hypocrisy. We do not know the details. They might have decided that the priority was to terminate Bin Laden, out of fear that the Seals might have been ambushed had they tried to get him out. Better that he was 100% dead, than that he got away during an attempt to take him out of the country. And of course when you are in a dangerous situation, it is not easy to think rationally, and to know everything accurately. I think the US commandos should be commended for bravery, when the US could have dropped a bomb on the building, killing many 'innocents' in the process. The whole operation was incredibly audacious since they did not know with any certainty that Bin Laden was in the building. It could have been a 'mere' drug warlord!
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Osama bin Laden Is Dead - BiggerBadderDave
