Semi-literacy now has the official stamp of approval.
I refer to the invitations to the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton.
In the script, 'marriage' is used with a capital 'm'.
Marriage is an ordinary noun, such as cat, dog, carpet, house, car - it does not take a capital letter.
Worse, in the bottom right hand corner of the invitation is: "Dress: Uniform, Morning Coat or Lounge Suit."
Yet more semi-literacy.
None of the words: uniform, morning, coat, lounge and suit should have capitals.
Many would capitalise the word 'uniform', because it follows a colon, but strictly it should be lower case.
To say I'm shocked would be an exaggeration, but I am surprised - and saddened - that no one picked up these errors before the invitations were sent out.
I've a good mind to turn mine down in protest.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12513620
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I've RSVP'd to mine to ask if I can go in jeans and a T shirt.
Pat
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...to ask if I can go in jeans and a T shirt...
Only to sweep the floor afterwards.
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It could be written in an Oriental language for all the difference it will make to me.
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What else would you expect from a bunch of Germans - all nouns are majusculed. Also from Wiki, "Some languages, such as German, capitalize the first letter of all nouns; this was previously common in English as well."
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I find it rather tragic that the inevitable naysayers have to resort to such nitpicking to justify their displeasure at this event.
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...I find it rather tragic that the inevitable naysayers have to resort to such nitpicking to justify their displeasure at this event...
If that refers to me, it's an assumption which is incorrect.
I am a strong supporter of the monarchy, although I've never been a fan of weddings, either to go to, or to watch on television.
As someone with an interest in the language, I find capital letters wrongly sprinkled all over an official document worthy of criticism.
My support of the monarchy is not blind support, but I hope the upcoming wedding goes well, even though I will not be watching it.
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If it applies to my remark your assumption is quite wrong.
It was an attempt at humour and shouldn't need an explanation.
Pat
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What's All This About Capital Letters All Over The Place? :-)
Last edited by: hobby on Sun 20 Feb 11 at 10:14
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Modern English is little more than a dialect of old German anyway. If you listen to the German spoken in the Friesian Islands it sounds a lot like English.
To take an example, the English phrase "What is the time?" in classical German would be "Wieviel Uhr ist es?" but in the Friesian dialect it would be "Wot ist de clok?"
Linguistic rules are born of local convention and usage and English in particular has evolved, changed and adapted far more than many of the other European languages. It continues to do so. It's really very difficult to be clear as to what is correct in our language as it is such a minestrone of other far more ancient speech patterns. We have a strong German influence but stirred in there are Latin, French, Greek and invented words and phrases.
For anyone interested to learn more in an entertaining way may I recommend Bill Bryson's "The Mother Tongue" and Jeremy Paxman's "The English". The one tackles the evolution of the language we now use and the other the events which led to the adoption of it.
In truth, if a native German or French speaker were able to time travel back a thousand years they would stand a good chance of being able to communicate whereas a 21st century native English speaker would struggle to be understood or recognise any language being used.
Much is made of linguistic correctness when in fact most of those conventions are only evidentially correct in a relatively short time span.
A more modern example can be seen in speech shortcuts. A phrase in common and now more or less unnoticeable use is "Y'know?" Even my father's parents would have said "Don't y'know?".
I love the twists, turns and evolutive development of language. How once dialectal words and phrases creep into common usage because they are just better than than the conventional or established versions. One of my favourites is the old Scots word to describe the prevailing climate north of the border. It needs the ability to pronounce the soft "ch" as in "loch" to be at its most descriptive but so perfectly sums up a typical Scottish summer's day. It is "dreich", meaning cold with a light never ending drizzle...
I expect others can think of some regional dialectal words or phrases which also perfectly match their intent.
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>> What else would you expect from a bunch of Germans
I didn't know that the invitations were printed in Germany.
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That's wonderfully clever of you to spot these mistakes and so awfully kind of you to take the time to let us know that you know the correct use of capital letters. Thank you so much. Gosh you are clever.
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...Thank you so much. Gosh you are clever...
That remark is sarcastic, stupid and irrelevant.
The wedding invitation represents this country to people who, like it or not, are important nationally and internationally.
I think it is an embarrassment, in the same way it would be if half of the guests came down with food poisoning after the reception.
That is the issue here, not my knowledge of the written word.
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>> I think it is an embarrassment, in the same way it would be if half
>> of the guests came down with food poisoning after the reception.
>>
I bit much, must people would notice mass food poisoning. I don't think some grammar errors on the same level.
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...I don't think some grammar errors on the same level...
Perhaps not, but many of the recipients of the invitation will spot the errors and, like it or not, disapprove of them.
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Maybe so, but I don't think it's a big issue and I'm not sure of the 1900 people invited that many will notice.
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That remark is sarcastic, stupid and irrelevant.
It might be sarcastic but it is not irrelevant . Your post is all about parading your proof-reading skills.
I can't imagine for one moment that anyone who receives such an invitation is going to worry about a minor stylistic difference from the norm in the use of capital letters unless they are the worst sort of boring pedant.
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Here we go again.
Would CGN have been so sarky if this conversation has been face to face in the local pub with regulars known to each other but not close friends? (edit: followed by "worst sort of boring pedant).
Would Iffy have told him he was being stupid, sarcastic and irrelevant in is remarks?
Maybe they would - but I doubt it.
As for the invitation, I can't see the problem. It's more a matter of design than grammar.
There is a precedent from 1981 when people paid attention to these things -
www.flickr.com/photos/78553575@N00/315946837/
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 20 Feb 11 at 10:43
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>> There is a precedent from 1981 when people paid attention to these things -
>>
>> www.flickr.com/photos/78553575@N00/315946837/
Thanks M you beat me to it. Was going to look out that item or one from other historical Royal nuptials.
If there are rules at all for these sort of formal invitations I don't think they're the same as those for journalistic or other writing.
And while i'm on can i second your appeal for better manners in here. In any community like this there are always going to be some folks who get on each others tits. Best to either ignore or respond by going for the ball rather than the man.
I know I've not always followed that advice but.......
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...There is a precedent from 1981 when people paid attention to these things...
Very similar wording and layout.
I see 'commanded' was wrongly capitalised in 1981, but has dropped to lower case in 2011.
Not much progress in 30 years, but I'd expect evolutionary, not revolutionary, change from the monarchy.
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Look this is not the Womens institute.
If a contributor to this site wishes to put themselves in the firing line by bringing up irrelevant tat, its their right to do so, but must expect to be shot at for being so small minded.
Just a general comment you understand, with no reference to any individual.
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I am attending the Royal Weeding, only my invite had a four letter word beginning with F in front of it!
It is quite poor though for this mistake to have happened.
Watching too good looking rich people getting married is not my idea of fun, it is called "lets rub it in TV".
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Don't forget your trowel, Rattle.
:)
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>> I am attending the Royal Weeding,
Is one of her Majesty's gardeners getting married then?
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>> Look this is not the Womens institute.
Hehe. Perhaps you haven't been savaged by the WI. Mrs Dugong was at the AGM when Tony Blair copped it. She thought they were rather rude.
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"It's more a matter of design than grammar"
I think that's true. It would be unacceptable in a book, a newspaper or a corporate report, but for an invite or advert, design often overrides regular grammar and punctuation. It could have been all uppercase, or all lowercase, but when I've designed wedding stationery in the past, it's usually whatever the bride wants it to be.
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I think Marriage is acceptable in this context, but I'm surprised at the other 'mistakes' iffy has picked out. Done deliberately I'm sure, but it doesn't seem appropriate somehow. (The mistakes that is, not iffy's mention of them.)
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 20 Feb 11 at 11:13
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>> it's usually whatever the bride wants it to be.
As in - "If you are a member of my family or one of my friends you are warmly invited. If you are one of his lot you can come too but bring a decent present and behave yourself..."
:-)
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Can we have a "Big Fat Royal Wedding" meets "Fens Dogging" fly on the wall TV show please?
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 20 Feb 11 at 11:16
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>>In the script, 'marriage' is used with a capital 'm'.
It seems to me that capital letters are used more frequently these days, particularly when the writer wishes to emphasise the importance of certain words.
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Why shouldn't we "play" with language anyway. That's how it evolves after all.
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...It seems to me that capital letters are used more frequently these days, particularly when the writer wishes to emphasise the importance of certain words...
I've noticed the same thing.
Like Focus, I could just about live with 'Marriage', but the rest grates on me big-style.
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There is far more going on to worry about.
And really, its not the thin end of any wedge, nor can it be attributed to "standards".
Its a funny thing called change.
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Anyway hardly semi literacy Iffy.
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>> Its a funny thing called change.
Actually, it's a funny thing called tradition. As BBD points out, any word regarded as important used to be capitalised in advertising handbills, pamphlets, official documents and so on until well into the nineteenth century. Invitations are certainly one of these categories.
Iffy was making a clamour about nothing. But we don't really mind, do we?
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>> Iffy was making a clamour about nothing. But we don't really mind, do we?
Well actually, yes I do. Not about the heinous crime itself, but the pompous lecturing.
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...Well actually, yes I do. Not about the heinous crime itself, but the pompous lecturing...
Pointing out an error is not pompous lecturing.
Yet another bold statement from Zero with no basis in fact.
Acting as if you own the place - which you have been doing of late - could be described as being pompous.
That will end in tears, as it has done in the past.
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>> ...Well actually, yes I do. Not about the heinous crime itself, but the pompous lecturing...
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>> Pointing out an error is not pompous lecturing.
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>> Yet another bold statement from Zero with no basis in fact.
I will allow your words to speak in my defence.
"Semi-literacy now has the official stamp of approval"
"Yet more semi-literacy"
"To say I'm shocked would be an exaggeration, but I am surprised - and saddened - that no one picked up these errors before the invitations were sent out."
"I find capital letters wrongly sprinkled all over an official document worthy of criticism"
"I think it is an embarrassment, in the same way it would be if half of the guests came down with food poisoning after the reception."
"Not much progress in 30 years, but I'd expect evolutionary, not revolutionary, change from the monarchy"
"I could just about live with 'Marriage', but the rest grates on me big-style."
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...I will allow your words to speak in my defence...
It's hard to imagine a more innocuous mixture of fact and opinion of the type routinely posted on forums.
I don't know why we cannot concentrate on the question of correct or incorrect use of capital letters rather than trying to dissect my posting style.
Seems to me Zero is guilty of the pompous lecturing he claims to despise.
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>> Seems to me Zero is guilty of the pompous lecturing he claims to despise.
>>
You make a good pair, you can decide between yourselves of what. I suspect that most of the rest of us already have.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 20 Feb 11 at 14:48
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Valid topic for discussion I thought - didn't notice iffy being any more pompous than usual :)
The last sentence of the OP ("I've a good mind to turn mine down in protest") left me with the impression it was more a light hearted observation rather than anything too serious.
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>> Well actually, yes I do. Not about the heinous crime itself, but the pompous lecturing.
>>
Not sure I see it that way. Iffy has a gift for starting threads that can drift into interesting territory even if they don't start there.
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>> .. grates on me
>> big-style.
>>
As a matter of fact your use of words like "upcoming" and "big-style" grate on me, a liitle.
But I'm not going to write a disgusted Tunbridge Wells letter about it. :)
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This is fascinating.
Here's the wedding invitation of the late Queen Mother goo.gl/QdzL5
Note "to the Ceremony of the Marriage...", and in the accompanying note on what to turn up in, even "Trousers" gets upper case.
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Trousers needs the uppercase. It's to remind people to don what is after all one of the More Important Garments.
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Dress code? There is a nearby town where the surrounding areas joke that the way to identify the bride at a wedding in that town is to look for the white shell suit and high heels.
The London socialites have a lot to learn. :-)
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Please, no jokes about veils keeping flies off brides.
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I thought they kept the flies off the melon.
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So I suppose I should not mention my disappointment at reading a tv review in which someone was scalded? No they weren't, they were scolded. :-(
John
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I emailed The Lord Chamberlain earlier today to tell him that iffy was disappointed with the standard of English used on the wedding invitations.
He replied saying:
"It's The Queen's English and she can do what the hell she likes with it. As for that Iffy bloke, one more word from him and his head's on a pike."
Kevin...
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That's the whole point of this thread. Put a capital p on pike and it changes the context of the sentence. ;>)
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I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse
I helped my Uncle jack off a horse
Sometimes capitalisation matters but other times its just about style & snobbery
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There's another thread running at the moment that involves Jamie Oliver and Lord Winston asking some schoolboys to supply sperm samples for a classroom experiment. It sounds as though your uncle could have been responsible for adequate supplies for the whole school !
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ISTR some convention or practice whereby some phrases are put in what is known as Initial Capitals. This would mean that that the title of this thread would have been "Capitals Disease in High Places" Does that ring a bell with anybody?
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It was certainly how I was taught at grammar school in the late 50's/early 60's and have since been told on here that it's wrong.
Pat
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Doesn't mean that you were taught wrong.
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>>this thread would have been "Capitals Disease in High Places" Does that ring a bell with anybody?
It certainly does with me.
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Words other than conjunctions would be capped up in film, song, and book titles.
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
But there is no convention for marriage, lounge, suit, and the rest in this context.
A wedding invitation is merely prose.
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""But there is no convention for marriage, lounge, suit, and the rest in this context."
So all it is is unconventional then Iffy...?
Last edited by: Pugugly on Mon 21 Feb 11 at 10:27
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>> A wedding invitation is merely prose.
Disagree. I do event management as part my job (conferences and seminars rather than weddings/barmitzvahs). Initial capitals, what word refers to as 'title case' would be norm in all sorts of contexts including Dress Code.
May not be 'right' in everybody's eyes but certainly not illiteracy grade 'wrong'.
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...Initial capitals, what word refers to as 'title case' would be norm in all sorts of contexts including Dress Code...
Which makes my point - it's a damn disease.
Most people expect something produced by Buckingham Palace to be in a traditional style, whether they approve of those traditions or not.
However you cut it, lounge, suit, dress, code and the rest are not proper nouns.
Carry on like this, and when the child of this happy union is married the wedding invitation will be in text speak.
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>> Most people expect something produced by Buckingham Palace to be in a traditional style, whether
>> they approve of those traditions or not.
Judging by the link to the Prince Charles/Diana doc above they are following tradition. Anybody got a link to anything earlier, Anne & Mark Phillips or Princess Margaret & Anthony Armstrong-Jones??
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Brompton: see Manatee's link above to the marriage of HM the Queen Mother.
John H: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling
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Put a capital p on pike and it
>> changes the context of the sentence. ;>)
>>
Don't tell him! ;-)
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Iffy. What Tosh!
The capitalization is perfectly correct.
What is incorrect is the dress code. Who goes to a wedding in a lounge suit, for goodness' sake.
And for a Royal Wedding it should be www.henrypoole.com/court_dress.cns
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>> The capitalization is perfectly correct.
>>
You say capitalization, I say capitalisation.
Yes, according to traditional English.
But Iffy is moving with times, and wants to give up some capitalisation. He may end up using "txt" English some day.
On another forum I visit now and again, there used to be someone who wrote in this fashion:
"Quantum Communications Lives and does not throw in the Towel with Flight .... IT Creates AI Saviour in Higher Disciplines and dDeeper Carnal Knowledge.
IT is the PenUltimate Key that Destroys and Razes to the Ground the Folly of Fools for the Love of Money Control and Transfers their Ill-Gotten Wealth to Servers of Passionate Flowers and Glorious Weeds.
Whenever the Root Cause and the Mouth Piece Mongerers of War and Pestilence and Famine are known, only the Fool Shoots the Messenger and not the Diseased Heads of Outrageous Misfortune
Quantum Communications Lives and does not throw in the Towel with Flight .... IT Creates AI Saviour in Higher Disciplines and dDeeper Carnal Knowledge.
Its a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World, Otto and ur Country Needs You .... for the Idiots are Bent on Self Destruction in a Crusading Jihad of Negative Spin and Media Mogul Manipulation aka Ball Licking for their Hubris of Power out of Control and how Certifiably Crazy is that? "
Last edited by: John H on Mon 21 Feb 11 at 10:59
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....Iffy. What Tosh! The capitalization is perfectly correct...
How so?
Only proper names routinely take capitals.
I drive a Ford car, not a Ford Car.
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But CAR Magazine is capitalized in full to separate it from any old car magazine and the BMW MINI is also done to distinguish it from its Mini predecessor. I think you should write to the Palace iffy.
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Trade names are a different kettle of fish.
Some are all lower case, esure springs to mind.
As regards writing to the palace (lower case), don't worry, I already have.
The Lord Chamberlain - Bill to his mates - is a near neighbour of mine in leafy North Yorkshire.
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>> The Lord Chamberlain - Bill to his mates - is a near neighbour of mine in leafy North Yorkshire.
No doubt he will convey your concerns to the appropriate authorities, iffy.
You can monitor the situation, and if no changes are made to the invitation you can remind him again.
I would suggest firing a shotgun outside his house at four in the morning. That should get the fellow's attention. If it doesn't, you can proceed to more serious measures.
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Excelent idea.
Why not visit Queenie herself at Windsor. I can poke you through the hole in the fence.
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"I can poke you through the hole in the fence."
The proper term is glory hole and even I'd draw the line at that kind of thing.
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>> "I can poke you through the hole in the fence."
>>
>> The proper term is glory hole and even I'd draw the line at that kind
>> of thing.
you told me you loved me the last time...
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Time to admit your case-o-meter needs recalibrating Iffy? They aren't progressing very quickly down the slippery slope to text speak are they, given they have been consistent since, at the latest, 1923?
Thanks to others for the reminder regarding title or proper case. I shall resume using it forthwith.
Of course, should the Lord Chancellor prostrate himself in apology, I shall do the same.
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It could have been worse. Did the Ifometer (capital I, brand name) spot any intruding apostrophes?
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No I think we got away with those...
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...Did the Ifometer (capital I, brand name) spot any intruding apostrophes?...
Just checked, no, phew, can breathe easy again.
I see someone has marked the OP as offensive. :)
You couldn't make it up, could you?
I may develop Ifometer, and as it's a brand name, I can do what I like.
If-o-meter sounds good to me.
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Can't see how it is offensive to anyone - it may be an "accidental discharge" someone having one up the spout !
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...Can't see how it is offensive to anyone...
Make a joke of something around here and some of their faces would crack.
As Focus noted, there was a hint in the last line of OP: "I've a good mind to turn mine down in protest."
But, as ever, some fell on stony ground.
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"If-o-meter sounds good to me."
There's a "What-if" machine in Futurama. I think it does something completely different though.
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Dear Sir,
One hears all too commonly nowadays the mispronunciation of the word "Ifometer". I was brought up in 1928 to place the stress on the first syllable, but even the BBC now seems to call it an "If -OM-eter".
Yours in disgust,
etc.
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Sir
in response to the Pope's communication of 21 February, I would point out that on this side of the pond the first vowel is lengthened, the word sounding something like 'Eye-fometer' rather than 'If-ometer'.
No disrespect to His Holiness of course.
Hiram K. Shuttlebaumer III, Milwaukee (Milwaukee).
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Of Flywheel, Shyster & Flywheel?
John
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>> I see someone has marked the OP as offensive. :)
That'll be the Lord Chamberlain...
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Really, I'm not sure I understand the use of the colon here:
>>None of the words: uniform, morning, coat, lounge and suit should have capitals.
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...Really, I'm not sure I understand the use of the colon here:...None of the words: uniform, morning, coat, lounge and suit should have capitals...
It's to introduce a list, in this case a list of words.
Quoting from the linked site:
Use of colon.
1) Before a list.
I could only find three of the ingredients: sugar, flour and coconut.
correctpunctuation.explicatus.info/punctuation-colon.htm
Last edited by: Iffy on Mon 21 Feb 11 at 15:34
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>>>> ...Really, I'm not sure I understand the use of the colon here:...None of the words:
>>>> uniform, morning, coat, lounge and suit should have capitals...
>>
>> It's to introduce a list, in this case a list of words.
A colon is correctly used to introduce a list. But you are not introducing a list. There is a list, but it is in the middle of a sentence and the use of the colon there bemuses me. The following would be correct:
"All of these words should have capitals: Uniform, Morning, Coat, Lounge and Suit."
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Capitals disease in high places - MD
