I wrote the following this morning at 4am, after becoming disillusioned with some posts on here made overnight.
>>The working class is as far as I’m concerned, the backbone of any society.
The circles I move in as I get older seem to assume that anyone who is working class is a chav.
I suspect that is because the classes as we used to know them as recently as 100 years ago, have actually shifted position in a downhill direction.
It is so much easier now to be what was known as upper class or even middle class.
Could it be that there is less aristocracy about now to make room for that upward movement?
The landed gentry are certainly declining, servants have long gone and in their place we have a different breed of working class people.
I have worked for the aristocracy as a servant, and was always treated with the utmost respect by them. I learned silver service and how to wait on tables at dinner parties among other things. I learned which side to serve what from, which wine goes in which glass and how to stand and wait in the background and watch and anticipate when a guest might need something.
I was always thanked at the end of the evening for my work, although I was very young and my mother was the cook who had prepared the dinner. We lived in a tied cottage on the estate and was looked after very well.
I think the only thing to resemble this now is the Officers Mess which seems not to have changed much.
I always aspired to better myself and there have been many times in my life when the teachings of my early years have been a big help to me. I always felt that there was no reason that I couldn’t be like ‘them’ and treat others with respect, whatever their perceived position on the social ladder. I also felt secure in that if ever the occasion arose I would not be out of my depth and I had a good grounding as to how my peers behaved.
In short I respected them very much.
During the many years that followed I found that having to do the lowliest of jobs to earn money and survive and try to improve my lot, honed my character and resolve. I ensured that as things got better I had no fear that, should the worst happen again and I found myself at rock bottom, I could survive, I’d done it before after all.
I knew the key to survival was money and the only way to achieve even a small amount of that, was to work hard at whatever was available.
Fast forward to 2011 and I find myself in the position that I don’t want for anything other than good heath, so to those with their foot on that bottom rung of the social ladder, does that make me middle class?
No, it appears to make me a chav, categorised as someone who has a 42inch plasma TV, football top, lives off benefits and doesn’t have any right to an opinion on anything.
So why is this?
Given that the true aristocracy have long gone and the pseudo rich have now moved into top spot, where did things go wrong?
Can anyone look up to them as peers and learn from, and aspire to them?
Where has this total lack of respect for the honest worker come from?
Why do we always see ‘poor and downtrodden’ before the words ‘working class’ just as we see ‘thundering juggernaut’ to describe a lorry by someone who doesn’t want it to be there?
We certainly don’t see ourselves as poor; we’re rich in things that others will never appreciate…experience of life, simple pleasures, and no fear of financial security going in a flash.
Downtrodden? Not at all, we have too much respect for ourselves to allow others to do that to us.
Is it a myth perpetrated by those who feel threatened by the ‘working class’ catching them up a bit, something along the lines of, if it’s said often enough, it will be believed.
This is supposed to be a classless society, but to some it appears that they still live in the past where they think it is normal to ridicule others, talk over them and treat them with derision, but is that simply that they are bullies at heart and can never change? Is it because they have no valid argument to make but like to hear their own voices?
Is this indeed, anything to do with class, or is it just used as another bullet to fire in the eternal battle for supremacy over others that some people have?
Everyone it seems has a view, so let’s see if car4play can debate this without becoming personal.
Pat
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Discussions of class.. seem to me as outdated as the concept.
End of my input.
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>>It is so much easier now to be what was known as upper class or even middle class.
Not even remotely true. You can only be born upper class.
>>Why do we always see ‘poor and downtrodden’ before the words ‘working class’
Only in your posts on here. So you don't see it at all, unless you write it. We do, because you've written it, and I am sure I am not the only one who is beginning to find it somewhat grating.
Indeed, only in your posts does anybody ever mention class. I don't understand your obsession, and I'm beginning to get very bored with your dragging it into every thread you can. "Don't read it then." Fair point, but this is apparently becoming a class discussion forum, rather than a motoring forum.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:05
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>>Everyone it seems has a view, so let’s see if car4play can debate this without becoming personal.
Two responses and the answer is inevitably and sadly not. Perhaps I need to spend more time on Cyclechat.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:06
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>> >>Everyone it seems has a view, so let’s see if car4play can debate this without
>> becoming personal.
>>
>> Two responses and the answer is inevitably and sadly not. Perhaps I need to spend
>> more time on Cyclechat.
>>
And I fell to see where my reply has ANY personal comments at all...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:19
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>> And I fell to see where my reply has ANY personal comments at all...
The comment I responded originally included the word 'sweetie'. Personal and aimed at Pat.
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>> >> And I fell to see where my reply has ANY personal comments at all...
>>
>> The comment I responded originally included the word 'sweetie'. Personal and aimed at Pat.
>>
You appear to have misread what I said. My post is original and unedited. And does not and never included the word "sweetie"..
I would never use the word "sweetie" which means to me a sweet - as in liquorice...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:48
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@madf
It was Mappy who used (& then removed) the word sweetie
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Thanks Bromptonaut.
So what is my personal remark which you allege I have made?
I can't see one but will happily apologise if I have made one...
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Madf,
Nothing at all in what you said, my point was that after two posts there was already a personal jib.
I was aiming solely at Mappy.
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>> @madf
>>
>> It was Mappy who used (& then removed) the word sweetie
>>
Mapmaker, please, Brummy.
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"Class" has implications beside money. I think I told you my view on people in general?
As for "personal", it's already happened - up there ^.
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My Father was a train driver, does that make me working class?
I like to go to opera, holiday in Italy, does that make me upper class?
I am comfortably retired does that make me middle class?
I like to drink Belini's in Harrys Bar in Venice, does that me upper class or a chav?
I was a football hooligan, does that me underclass?
Being obsessed about what class you are in, is one of the main reasons that the perceived class structure is being maintained.
There is no class, we are all, in a generation, able to be socially mobile.
Me?
Like Barclaycard - classless.
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>> I like to drink Belini's in Harrys Bar in Venice, does that me upper class
>> or a chav?
Belini's what?
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I can't be bothered to classify or pigeonhole people. I take them as I find them, as individual human beings. I will confess to a slight dislike for male teenagers with Argos jewellery, piercings, tattoos and their jeans worn low to display the waistband/logo of some crummy boxer shorts. However, if I ever had cause to talk to one I would likely find that they were normal but with odd tastes in fashion! My first paid work was a washer up in a Lyons Corner in Central London, what does that make me? It just makes me ME.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:26
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I have a nice house, a newish car, travel the world, and am financially secure. I have worked all my life to be comfortable in retirement, I am working class, and I don't give a toss what anyone thinks about my status, it is their problem not mine.
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>>>No, it appears to make me a chav, categorised as someone who has a 42inch plasma TV, football top, lives off benefits and doesn’t have any right to an opinion on anything.
>>>Where has this total lack of respect for the honest worker come from?
There is no debate to be had.... it's all in your head. As others have said you keep bringing class debate to this forum and I truly don't know why.
Class never comes into my daily life.... bad behaviour at either top or bottom might but that's an entirely different thing.
>>>We certainly don’t see ourselves as poor; we’re rich in things that others will never appreciate
A strange attempt to grab the moral high ground... and why deny those with money the right to enjoy??
How very odd :-(
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it does appear that the idea of class is only spoken about by the lady with a large chip on her shoulder.
why should anyone care if some call pda a chav.
she seems like a decent, hard working person who is keen to look after her family, surely that is what most people want.
class discussions are pointless. i live next door to the seat of the dukes of richmond and reguarly speak to several members of that family. very nice people and i have never thought they were better than me and ive never got the impression that when we speak they cant wait to get away or they want too talk down to anybody.
give class a rest, its meaningless.
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Class is not meaningless though it means a hell of a lot less than honesty and integrity.
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Once again, the temptation to become personal has avoided the question being answered by many of the above.
To clarify, where do our much criticised younger generation get their peers from.
Who do they aspire to grow up to be?
Looking at standards in general and how they have dropped dramatically over the years, have we only got ourselves to blame?
I do actually care about being called a chav, simply because I'm not.
Pat
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Pat, if you're a chav them I'm a monkey's uncle. Who is calling you a chav and why are you getting upset listening to such a (insert word of choice from swear filter banned list)?
John
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nyx2k asked >>why should anyone care if some call pda a chav.<<
That's why I addressed it.
Pat
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my bad writing pda
i meant to say why should you care if you're called a chav.
from what ive gathered on here you are the last person who id consider to be a chav.
i think you are projecting your good morals etc onto other people and when they fail to reach your expectations then you feel aggreived.
Last edited by: nyx2k on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 14:59
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Your writing is just fine nyx2k, and your perception of how I feel is spot on:)
Pat
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no offence pat but i think im a few yrs younger than you(41) and im resighned to the fact that anybody under 30ish now that i meet is either after some some favour or trying to work out how to get some money out of me.
didnt one euro country ban tv on 1-2 nights a week and they noticed very quickly the change in attitude from the younger and not so young citizens.
ive banned any confrontational tv from the lounge tv. so no soaps and no reality shows that are supposed to be about competion as well as these tv docs on motorway police etc.
i had a bad heart murmur last year and sice i only watch educational stuff then i feel a lot better and less stressed
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You may well have something there...but you've just made me feel very,very old:)
I was brought up to respect people who knew more than me, to look and learn from them and to ask questions.
By and large they were always pleased to explain things to me and perhaps I do feel let down when it no longer happens.
Apart from Emmerdale and a few documentary programmes, I don't watch TV an awful lot so I hadn't thought of that being as much of an influence on the youngsters as it is.
Pat
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its a massive problem i feel.
the role models turn out to be the latest conman on albert square who;s just murdered someone and made a fortune in the process so no need to learn anything if money can be made that way.
i was also taught to be respectful and to spend every opptunity to learn something new as much as possible.
in my work its remarkable how showing respect, interest and good old fasghioned manners gets me the contract nearly everytime
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>> the role models turn out to be the latest conman on albert square who;s just
>> murdered someone and made a fortune in the process so no need to learn anything
>> if money can be made that way.
You do get some pantomime baddies in Eastenders but as an on-and-off viewer I would say your (presumably at least partly tongue-in-cheek) assessment is a bit harsh - I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who fits that description. The last murder IIRC was by a young woman with mental health issues, and the guy she murdered had sexually abused her. She certain;y didn't benefit financially and went through a whole lot more stress as a result. (It does have a lot of lighter moments as well, honest!)
I suspect you see more morals in Eastenders than you do in real life. Yes there's obviously drama to make it interesting, but on the whole I don't think you can blame it for too many of society's problems, although it might reflect a few.
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i dont think they are pantomime or cartoon baddies.
the violence amd malice is portrayed with uncanny reality and a lot of the young see it as a away to get ahaed
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>> i dont think they are pantomime or cartoon baddies.
>> the violence amd malice is portrayed with uncanny reality and a lot of the young
>> see it as a away to get ahaed
I don't see a lot of such violence and malice, and what there is is I believe far outweighed by 'good' stuff. Guess we'll have to agree to differ.
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it maybe ive been catching the end of the wrong episodes.
it just seems a constant process of drip drip with more dodgy behavior.
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Of course I'm watching it as a 46 year old and don't take it too seriously - I accept youngsters will see it differently.
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These "soaps" seem to be an endless cycle of horrible people doing horrible things in horrible places. They are watched by millions, many of who think it's acceptable, or even real. I have heard comparisons made, in all seriousness, by people that watch these things with real-life situations. Apalling. Should be on after 10 p.m., if at all.
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>> These "soaps" seem to be an endless cycle of horrible people doing horrible things in
>> horrible places.
That's a popular view, but I don't think it's a fair assessment.
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My Wife watches this programme amongst others. Also Coronation Street, Something about Hospitals and other mindless crap. The one thing that stands out is that they are always ruddy shouting at each other. I moved away from the crowds 23 years ago and now live in peace. My Wife would no more go and live in Yorkshire or East London or wherever in a crowded environment so why the chuff does she sit glued to this ******* (my stars). It offends me somewhat.
Gotta go now as the open fire needs stoking and the Tawny Owls need listening to. Stick the town where the sun don't shine and all the dross that goes with it.
Chavvie is a name for a Gypsy Boy.
Hi Pat. Hope you are well.
Martin.
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I have missed a few episodes so I'm not really in a position to comment but, does this mean that Albert Tatlock has had his wicked way with Emily Nugent? Surely not?
John
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>> I have missed a few episodes so I'm not really in a position to comment
>> but, does this mean that Albert Tatlock has had his wicked way with Emily Nugent?
>> Surely not?
Brace yourself for a shock. Albert is no longer with us, nor Len Fairclough
Last time I watched it, Stan Ogden wasn't looking too clever either.
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Good grief, is there nothing in life you can rely on?
John
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>> Chavvie is a name for a Gypsy Boy.
That's right. It is thought to have been brought here by Serbo-Croat speaking Roma and it comes from the word "Chovek", simply meaning "man" (Russian - Chelovek, Polish Chłop). Del Boy in Only Fools and Horses uses the phrase "She's dropped her chavvie" to describe the birth of his son when Damian arrives.
Other expamles I can think off off the top of my head in cockney dialiect are "Drum" from the Serbo-Croat "Drum" meaning small lane), "Mush" from "Muzh" meaning husband, and "Machka" which is the Serbo-Craot for cat but has gone out of common use.
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Since you clearly don't watch them FT I'm not entirely clear how you make your judgement FT.
The ones I have viewed seem to provide drama based on characters who, whilst often larger than life do reflect characters that exist the real world. The plot are almost invariably moral in that the good win through in the end and the bad inevitably come to a sticky end. There is always a strong sense of community in soap operas and you could say that they actually represent an idealised world. I suspect that it is this aspect that makes them so popular when many people live such isolated lives, far away from their families and have little dealings with their neighbours
As to llving in horrible places a lot of people actually do live in areas very much like those portrayed in Eastenders or Coronation Street. Should not such places be portrayed on TV.?
Drama should reflect the world and problems about us. From that point of view the soaps sometimes achieve more than mainstream theatre. Should Dickens be alive today i am sure he would writing scripts for Eastenders.
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That's what I meant to say :)
Thanks CGN.
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>> Since you clearly don't watch them FT I'm not entirely clear how you make your
>> judgement FT.
I have watched parts of various ones, when visiting.
>> The ones I have viewed seem to provide drama based on characters who, whilst often
>> larger than life do reflect characters that exist the real world.
Yes, in general horrible ones.
>> The plot are almost
>> invariably moral in that the good win through in the end and the bad inevitably
>> come to a sticky end.
Lost on many, I think.
>> As to llving in horrible places a lot of people actually do live in areas
>> very much like those portrayed in Eastenders or Coronation Street. Should not
>> such places be portrayed on TV.?
These places are made horrible by the nature of the people who "live" there. In TVland, if explanation is needed.
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Actually FT most of the characters in popular soaps are not "horrible'. but as you say in fact you have barely watched any of them and so you are not really in a position to to know whether your statement is true or not.
Have you never wondered why good invariably triumphs over evil in popular fiction? It's because those who watch actually want it to. People like to be transported to a world where good triumphs over evil and the community rallies around in times of trouble. Soaps are pure escapism form the real world, not a cause of the trouble in it, as you appear to quaintly believe.
And as to the effect that such dramas have on teenagers I think you will find that very few actually watch these programs. Most of the viewers of these programs are much older and predominantly female.
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>> Actually FT most of the characters in popular soaps are not "horrible'. but as you
>> say in fact you have barely watched any of them
No, as above, I said "I have watched parts of various ones, when visiting..
I have watched quite enough to form a valid opinion, thank you very much.
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>> As to llving in horrible places a lot of people actually do live in areas
>> very much like those portrayed in Eastenders or Coronation Street. Should not such places be
>> portrayed on TV.?
>>
>> Drama should reflect the world and problems about us. From that point of view the
>> soaps sometimes achieve more than mainstream theatre. Should Dickens be alive today i am sure
>> he would writing scripts for Eastenders.
No-one, has as many dramas happen to them, their family, or their small little enclave as those portrayed in soaps. Characters are mostly violent, lacking in morals, feckless, dishonest, who never aspire to anything better. I fail to see the "good" triumphing, indeed they are mostly put down or put upon.
In that respect Dickens has a lot to teach Soap scriptwriters.
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>> No-one, has as many dramas happen to them, their family, or their small little enclave
>> as those portrayed in soaps.
Soaps are dramas, so I think you would expect that.
>> Characters are mostly violent, lacking in morals, feckless, dishonest, who
>> never aspire to anything better.
>> I fail to see the "good" triumphing, indeed they are
>> mostly put down or put upon.
That just isn't true, unless you're talking about programmes I haven't seen - which ones are you talking about?
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East Enders, Coronation Street.
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>> East Enders, Coronation Street.
Can't say I've seen much Corrie, but I have seen a fair amount of Eastenders. Although based on your description I must have imagined it :)
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Ok tell me what the current storylines are about.
So storylines of Murder, child theft, infedelity, children goaded by father to commit assault, are all ok then? These are all the latest ones. EVERY character (except one) has *serious* character flaws. There is not a stable family to be seen anywhere.
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>> Ok tell me what the current storylines are about.
I was hoping for a pleasant chat.
>> So storylines of Murder, child theft, infedelity, children goaded by father to commit assault, are
>> all ok then?
Depends how they are handled, of course. They deal with 'adult' themes, as you'd expect in an adult drama.
>> These are all the latest ones. EVERY character (except one) has *serious*
>> character flaws. There is not a stable family to be seen anywhere.
Families go through phases - the stable ones at any one time are the ones not featured in the storylines because they're boring :)
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 08:45
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>> >> So storylines of Murder, child theft, infedelity, children goaded by father
>> >> to commit assault, are all ok then?
>>
>> Depends how they are handled, of course. They deal with 'adult' themes, as you'd expect
>> in an adult drama.
Which is why these shows should be consigned to a post-10pm slot, rather than being on in the early evening when non-adults pick up ideas and impressions from this sad and sorry crap.
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 09:50
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>> when non-adults pick up ideas and impressions from this sad
>> and sorry crap.
>>
And plenty of gullible adults...
Would agree with a lot of what has been said, if the real world was really that bad in my area I'd have moved long ago... Luckily its not as such programmes are just fiction with as much in the way of "shock" value chucked in to keep the viewing figures up... Now where have I heard that before when talking of motoring... ;-)
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"So storylines of Murder, child theft, infedelity, children goaded by father
to commit assault, are all ok then?"
Sounds pretty much like the plots Shakespeare used, and indeed all drama since the ancient Greeks. Even a lot of fairy stories are based on murder and rape. What do you think Red Riding Hood is about?
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>> "So storylines of Murder, child theft, infedelity, children goaded by father
>> to commit assault, are all ok then?"
>>
>> Sounds pretty much like the plots Shakespeare used, and indeed all drama since the ancient
>> Greeks. Even a lot of fairy stories are based on murder and rape. What do
>> you think Red Riding Hood is about?
Indeed, but not set in normal environment (red riding hood for example is set in evil woods) and certainly not depicted as normal life, as per East Enders.
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>> this sad and sorry crap.
There's quite a lot of humour in it, although it is often quite dry and perhaps would be missed if you don't know the characters that well.
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There is little humour in Eastenders, dry wet or otherwise.
Its unremitting misery despair and depression
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 12:18
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>> Its unremitting misery despair and depression
Is that why you watch it?
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I dont, Nicole (bless her little cotton socks) has it on.
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We often watched Eastenders in the early days. It was funnier up to the point Angie left to join her hair buddy.
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>>There is little humour in Eastenders,
You can say that again; nothing but people shouting and bawling at one another. I stay well away when my wife watches the Sunday omnibus.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 12:29
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>> I dont, Nicole (bless her little cotton socks) has it on.
Right - so she watches it to compensate for unremitting hilarity of living with you?
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Well thats thrown a personal tone on it. I would like you to apologise for that remark.
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>> Well thats thrown a personal tone on it. I would like you to apologise for
>> that remark.
Yes - sorry, it was said in jest but might not have come across like that. Apologies.
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Thanks.
No harm done
Now back to the bawling and shouting ;)
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 12:39
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>>nothing but people shouting and bawling at one another.
A bit like C4P of late.
:-)
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>> I hadn't thought (TV) as much of an influence on the youngsters as it is.
It is, I thing, the biggest influence in many of their lives - bar none. I don't know what the average is for school-age children, but I would not be surprised if it was at least three hours.
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>> To clarify, where do our much criticised younger generation get their peers from.
>> Who do they aspire to grow up to be?
They've got a lot of successful (money-wise) people to view on the telly. These include oafs like that foul-mouthed cook, and that orange-coloured woman with enhanced knockers. There are many others. The portrayal of such people on the TV is part of the issue (although this is beside your original point). TV has a lot to answer for; this is where most of the problems come from IMO. Doubt it? Look at "the power of advertising", and the stuff that's flogged at Christmas, if you[1] can't see reflections of what's on the box in society now.
>> Looking at standards in general and how they have dropped dramatically over the
>> years, have we only got ourselves to blame?
Yes, we have ourselves to blame (see above).
>> I do actually care about being called a chav, simply because I'm not.
Good (I re-open this to mention that I had formed no idea that you were, although I might call your culinary expertise into question - was it microwave dinners, or something?)..
[1] That's "you", not "*you*".
Last edited by: FotheringtonTomas on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 13:59
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>> To clarify, where do our much criticised younger generation get their peers from.
>> Who do they aspire to grow up to be?
>>
There was this programme on BBC the other week "Who Gets the Best Jobs?"
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yb5kv
Alan Milburn, former Darlington MP who is now the coalition Government's new Social Mobility Tsar, asked a group of Tyneside teenager girls what their career ambition was; and they replied "to be a Cheryl Tweedie Cole".
A contributor to the programme was Peter Saunders who has been working as an independent researcher and writer, focusing on welfare reform, social mobility, income inequality and poverty.
He says the programme "included a brief and heavily edited excerpt from a 90 minute interview" and gives a fuller account here
www.petersaunders.org.uk/social_mobility_and_intelligence.html
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>> Once again, the temptation to become personal has avoided the question being answered by many
>> of the above.
>>
I hope my reply was not taken in that way.
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there are no people for the young to look upto so they hang around with thier peers talking about the sopaps and believing that the nasty way they behave in the tv is how they should behave to anyone else
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" This is supposed to be a classless society, "
Classless? See if you can tell which class the customers in this video fall in to
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixCP2f3QM0I
made non-clickable as it contains earthy language
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Well it's an odd trio but PP, ON and Suppose support my view that it's all about attitude and behaviour not about "class" / "where you live"/ "what you own".
I don't perceive any contempt for "the working class". Possibly for the "won't work-ing class".
Any respectable person, regardless of class, will behave properly, give others the respect they are due, look to improve themselves and their family, care for others less able and who are unable to care for themselves and probably end up in the fortunate situation that many of us find ourselves in.
John
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'Class' is dead now in my opinion. When I was in the RN, I sat next to royalty and foreign Politicians in the Wardroom, which for a lad from a council estate, was down to hard work. I'm a northerner and sound it. My accent was never raised, nor was my upbringing.
What exists now are those that contribute to scoiety and those that don't. Those that see benefits as a way of life instead of a safety net. How can it be right that someone can sit at home all day, everything paid for (including the 'bad back' motability car) and 'earn' more than someone working their backsides off for 40 hours a week. I see these people every day of my working life now and it's only getting worse. It'll never get tackled, because Politicians crumble to the activists who cry 'targeting the poor'. The country will never recover until personal responsibility and pride are foremost in peoples minds, rather than 'what's in it for me'.
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"It'll never get tackled, because Politicians crumble to the activists who cry 'targeting the poor'
Incorrect in my view. With a rapidly ageing population, there will be no alternative...Money and borrowing capacity are not infinite.
The poor are already being indirectly targeted by the local authorities who exist to help them. It is no coincidence that the most spendthrift councils - CE salaries, new building, £40 million loans to football clubs (I ask you.. what a bunch of muppets lending to West Ham and its porn multi millionaire owners ) - are often those with the poorest citizens...
thegamesgonecrazy.blogspot.com/2011/01/40-million-loan-to-west-ham-approved.html
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>>'Class' is dead now in my opinion<<
Contrary to what many may think from my posts I agree with you mlf.
Whether that is a good thing or not, is what I was asking myself at 4am this morning.
Class also brought with it a certain amount of breeding, education and above all good manners.
The You Tube clip posted is an example of where we are without it probably.
Pat
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The lines of clearly defined social classes have become blurred because there was a time when your social standing reflected your financial position and the two more often than not went together.
Now society has become so varied and diverse, with far easier upward mobility, that you cant really define anyone by social class.
Money is how people are rated these days. Its not who you are, its what you have got.
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"Money is how people are rated these days. Its not who you are, its what you have got. "
No, not at all W, got to disagree with you. There are plenty of oiks with money and plenty of very nice people without. I, for one, do not judge people by what they own, though I agree many of limited thinkng may. I say thinking rather than intelligence because some very intelligent people just don't think.
Elsewhere, "enhanced". Is that the word? I thought that meant improved, better in some way, as opposed to just BIGGER!!
And finally I'm mulling over SS's suggestion. It has some merit. Of course he may find himself locked up for hurting someone's pretty, pink, pale feelings by shouting "loser" at them, however true it may be. The "loser" will then go onto sue for hurt feelings using a no win / no fee solicitor.
Can't we talk about cars? This isn't a whole heap of fun and it's not going to change anything.
John
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I don't think we can drop the class system, and stop being able to pigeon-hole people, that way lies chaos.
Instead we need a new class system, based upon success, where everybody knows there place.
Loser
Wannabe
Successful
Master of The Universe
You should have to apply for admittance into these classes, and they should carry legal entitlements, such as a certain number of free speeding tickets and a reduction in tax for higher levels. Once you are a Master of the Universe, it should be almost impossible to get a prison sentence.
The vast majority of those that would consider themselves to be middle class would likely be re-assigned as members of the Wannabe class.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 14:54
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All societies have classes. Mike Hannon pointed out in another thread that the only 'scientific' definition of class is the Marxist one: essentially between owners and workers. Obviously in a socialist society 'owners' are high-ranking members of the party machine who control things as if they owned them. Bourgeoisie, bureaucracy: same difference.
Another characteristic of all societies is a greater or lesser measure of social mobility. People have always been able to scramble up the greasy pole through their own or their parents' efforts or by some fortunate connection, through marriage for example. This is all elementary.
However, as I have said before, our history makes us British particularly hung up on the peripheral details of class, our own system being apparently far more complicated than anyone else's. Some people find these trivia endlessly fascinating or at least amusing - I do myself - but woe betide you if you start taking them seriously or striving in an obvious way to climb socially. That will make you a laughing stock, and if you trample on faces it will get you heartily disliked.
By the way, it's a good idea, when Lord Thingummyjig is chatting pleasantly to you as if he has known you all his life and shares most of your interests, to try to identify the expression on his butler's face. Is the nose slightly wrinkled? The lip almost curled?
They often will be. Only the very best house servants can conceal their essential snootiness.
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Surely no-one still has butlers and house servants?
Pat
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Surely no-one still has butlers and house servants?
My son does he has me.!! :-)
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he has a workforce of hundreds as his estate is a massive business but the family only have a security minder/ driver and a part time housekeeper who is really old but he doesnt want to remove her as shes been with the family for 60yrs.
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>> Surely no-one still has butlers and house servants?
They are quite rare these days. But they still exist all right.
What one often finds these days is a sort of informal dogsbody or PA, treated apparently as an equal but paid and required to do the boring stuff, filling in forms, shopping, getting the repairs done, taking the jalopy to the garage, etc. etc.
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SWMBO has one of them....
John
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>> SWMBO has one of them....
>> John
>>
So does mine. :-)
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If just one member of this forum had a servant and I was asked to guess who I thought that might be; you would be top of my list, AC.
:)
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>> If just one member of this forum had a servant
How I wish you were right Clk Sec... but I am far too poor, so the boring stuff doesn't get done and the Inland Revenue is always snapping at my heels.
The son of a school friend, I suddenly remember, worked for someone as a butler for a couple of years. The really amusing thing is that in caste terms (thank you Alanovic for bringing in the related concept of caste) my old friend's son is a Serene Excellency with the title of Prince, whereas his employer was just some geezer with a whole lot of bread.
That is an example of why I find this stuff amusing.
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Incidentally, there's a downside to having servants: someone who knows far too much about you coming into your bedroom and messing with your trousers when you are still asleep. Unless you are used to this sort of thing and know and trust the individuals concerned, you might feel your privacy was being threatened. As it would be of course.
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>> Incidentally, there's a downside to having servants: someone who knows far too much about you
>> you might feel your privacy was being threatened. As it would be of course.
Just too many money-grubbing opportunists around. That's the problem.
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I think you were right, he does have one:)
Pat
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>> he does have one:)
I don't, dammit!
And I wasn't thinking of the threat to privacy in terms of tabloid tittle-tattling. More a matter of what they think when you are wandering about in your underwear, or not even that, with a hangover and not smelling of roses. It isn't something you would want to impose on anyone, especially not someone of a different social class. It's asking for trouble in a way.
I don't know how our wives manage to stand it actually.
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In this general context, allow me to recommend for those who haven't seen it recently the chilly little drama 'The Servant', Richard Attenborough and James Fox (was it? Is he old enough?). Anyway, the privacy issue is amply explored in it. It would put anyone off hiring a gent's gent.
Jeeves and Wooster only work because of P.G. Wodehouse's literary genius. He's so light on his feet... skips over the sinister side as if it didn't exist.
But in reality it always did.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 17:33
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>> In this general context, allow me to recommend for those who haven't seen it recently
>> the chilly little drama 'The Servant', Richard Attenborough and James Fox (was it? Is he
>> old enough?).
This one? www.imdb.com/title/tt0057490/
James Fox but no Richard A
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Yes, that's it.
Damn! Confused Dirk Bogarde with Richard Attenborough. Half gaga already, worse than Lord Emsworth but without the excuse that my mind is on higher things (the fatness of my favourite pig for example).
Thank you Focus.
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Tooslow and ON: I don't think payment in kind counts. Especially that kind.
:o}
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There used to be a chap around AC's neck of the woods who ran a school for wannabe butlers. I think there was a couple of newspaper articles about him a while back.
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>> However, as I have said before, our history makes us British particularly hung up on
>> the peripheral details of class, our own system being apparently far more complicated than anyone
>> else's.
Is the Indian Caste system not the exception here?
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AC,
You've expressed far better than I could the thoughts I had on the subject.
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with my heighbour it's his "minder" who is a complete bottom.
but if he tries to rush his bosses he gets told to chill out as he cant see anyone with a sawnoff trying to kidnap his kids
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I have several customers with staff although given they are pensioners and they own 10,000 acres and most of a village, I cant see as they could do it without them.
Just in their home on the estate they have a private secretary, a housekeeper and a cook. There are about 30 staff for the whole estate.
I have several customers who have cleaners although they live elsewhere and plenty with gardeners.
While most domestic help is hired in rather than live-in, the roles still exist.
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TV may, or may not be, the answer to why the younger generation have grown up with the views and values they have.
I think we’ve missed a generation here. I was influenced greatly by the situation I was brought up in when I was pre-teenage.
This continued until I left school at 15yrs old and started work in many different jobs, usually due to moving house.
There were at least 10 very formative years though, where I feel I learned my values in life.
How about those of you who were going through that stage in the 70’s and 80’s?
Eastenders and Corrie wasn’t around then to blame, so where did the change start to take place and what was the biggest influence on your formative years?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 05:33
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I don't think we have missed a generation. I don't think that the majority of our kids are any worse than those who have gone before them. There has always been an element of antisocial youth, for the last 100 years, as there has always been a majority of children who grow up to start good decent families.
Who is to say that the majority of our kids view and values are bad. Teenagers always horrify their parents in some respect, its what they do best.
They do have fewer artificial social boundaries than those who went before them, and are far better informed about the world they live in.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 16 Feb 11 at 09:05
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Dont recall watching a great deal of TV when I was younger, we werent allowed to except Sunday mornings before Sunday School. I was an 80's child.
I had a very mixed background socially, so maybe I find the blending of traditional working class attitudes with middle class ones normal. I also grew up with the the family of my dads business partner who were from distinguished, very upper class military familes with the accents to go with it. My mum was from a wealthy upper middle class jewish/scottish family, my dad from a working class one. I also had plenty of german culture thrown in and as a child I was fluent in german ( not that I recall much these days ).
As such, there were few barriers that I could see with social class when I grew up because the usual 'rules' were thrown out the window.
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Working class...a new debate. - madf
