I'm listening to some very happy, mostly young, Egyptians on the radio after Mubarak threw in the towel.
It reassures me to see people power prevail over a dictator.
My grasp of foreign affairs is very weak, but I hope it works out well for them.
Will the army move over when the time comes?
|
|
I think the army were more or less on the protesters side. Good news I think from what I've heard.
|
the army were covering all bases. Its always* been a military dictatorship, I don't see that changing.
*Since Gamal Abdel Nasser Hussein
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 11 Feb 11 at 22:45
|
|
it had to come the message was in the hieroglyphics
|
|
The consequences could be bad. An unhappy insecure Israel is not a good thing.
|
There's a fairly sensible sounding bloke on the radio talking about the army's vested interests, and the difficulties of subordinating their rule to the civilian population.
|
i wouldnt worry pu ;-)
the yanks put more into these two countries than anything to keep stability
|
|
Including a manufacturing facility for M1 Abrams Tanks, the second best battle tank in the world- something the Iranians would dearly love to get hold of - just over a thousand of them.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Fri 11 Feb 11 at 23:16
|
>> Including a manufacturing facility for M1 Abrams Tanks, the second best battle tank in the
>> world- something the Iranians would dearly love to get hold of - just over a
>> thousand of them.
So what the best Main Battle Tank?
Challenger II? Leopard? T90?
|
The new President, Field Marshall in the army, sounds as bad as Mubarak.
I see a lot of hopes being dashed...sorry to say.
Ted
|
|
I hope their vision of democracy turns out better than the reality usually is.
|
|
Democracy seems not to flourish in the middle east.
|
|
The problem with democracy is that it always elects politicians.
|
|
I think sometimes you probably have to live in such a regeime to understand just how democratic our political system is, despite it is being corrupt in certain areas. Too shattered to type properly.
|
|
Another Burma in the making?
|
|
Out with one Dict and in with a new - backed by USrael ... as usual.
|
|
Well according to the news, the Egyptians still seem to be having a "phar ole" time!
|
|
i had to ask my mummy to explain that one
|
>> i had to ask my mummy to explain that one
I sphinx your mad.
|
>> my mummy to explain that one
Actually Bb an Arab friend told me on the phone that a Middle East paper had run a piece on Egypt entitled something like: Mummy battles the living!
He thought it was awfully good and so did I.
Egyptians, like Iraqis, see themselves as distinct from the 'Arab nation' that other countries including the largely Berber North African countries feel they belong to, whatever Gamal Nasser may have wanted them to feel. They are intelligent, world-weary, kind-hearted people who like everyone sane prefer an easy life.
|
Quite a good idea for the biggest country in the region to be on good terms with them, as well as other western and eastern countries, Dog.
These huge popular demonstrations, in which the large middle class intelligentsias of Tunisia and Egypt have been very much to the fore (with other popular forces scowling and grimacing in the background though) seem to be making everyone think.
However perro old fruit, I think you are right to strike a note of pessimism or caution. Continuity alone in a large economy like that will ensure that a rose-coloured revolution probably won't be where we are when the dust settles.
One has to remember the weight of the forces in play. When the system shudders, everyone gets jumpy, for good reason.
|
|
should they set a date AC ;-)
|
>>Quite a good idea for the biggest country in the region to be on good terms with them, as well as other western and eastern countries, Dog<<
Peace is obviously preferable to war Lud, but history shows that sometimes war is a necessity to bring about that very peace.
When you get a rich & powerful country like USrael stealing land from the Palestinians and killing their woman and children + treating them like Untermensch, is it any wonder that multitudes in the Muslim world, including Egyptians want to see USrael get its ass whacked.
USrael is a (the only) nuclear power in the area, but they are surrounded by their enemies and although they would win any war that may break out in the not-too distant future, we all know that in reality, there are no winners in war, only losers.
I might add btw, that I am as happy for the Egyptian people, as they must be themselves ... at the moment.
|
No need to start a war. Better to lie doggo.
Tempting though it is to want people to get their rumps kicked for things like Israeli foreign and security policy and US complicity with that, kicking rumps isn't really what it's all about. It's about the balance of power, always least frightening when in a stable configuration.
One has to hope of course that a strong reinvented Egypt may help to cut the cackle in the Middle East and persuade Israel and the US - and a few others - to behave a bit better. At the moment the situation there overall is a hideous cacophony and dangerous, peace-threatening mess as it has been for the last several decades.
|
>>At the moment the situation there overall is a hideous cacophony and dangerous, peace-threatening mess as it has been for the last several decades<<
Could be a good time to buy a few shares in Israel Military Industries, Izhmash, and Armalite :(
|
Not sure about that.
Anyway tonight's news is that the Supreme Military Council has assured Egypt that democratic elections will be held, for what it's worth.
|
And the very best of luck to them in their free elections...the Egyptian equivalents of Cameroon, Clag and Broon should lead them to a swift realisation that it was a complete waste of time.
Actually that's me cynical head, i hope these thoroughly decent folk get a break...years of democracy lead me to believe the reality may be somewhat different.
|
Sadly, also with my cynical head on, many, many times, after a couple of months the Generals tend to get the liking for power and find that they quite like running the country and seeing as they're the real power behind the Government, anyway, does the country really need the bother of elections and democracy and all that tiresome stuff?
Really hope that I'm wrong but the Egyptian people may end up wishing that they'd settled for Mubarak's offer to step down in September and organise a controlled transition.
|
Well, I'm next door at the moment, only 3km from the Egyptian border between Eilat and Taba. No obvious military build up. Apparently the Egyptian Army is on good terms with the Israeli Army and there is little thought of immediate problems.
Democracy anywhere is a good thing, although like all political institutions it can throw up anomalies such as voting for the party who will abolish free and fair elections (e.g. Hamas in Gaza).
If there is a true middle class in any country they will generally vote for a party and system that will promote wealth generation and stability - not war. I imagine this will be the case in North Africa.
Why Dog keeps referring to USrael as if they are to blame for the world's ills I don't know. There are many many examples of ethnic Christians in Arab and Moslem countries and even the Philippines being murdered by Moslems for no reason other than they are a different religion. Remove Jews and Israel from the world Dog and the UK will still be at risk from Moslem extremists.
If you can't make useful and non-demonising comments Dog, keep quiet until, as I have said before, you actually visit the middle east and make up your own mind rather than pontificating from the wilds of South West UK.
|
Just heard a quote from one of the young Egyptians.
He was asked what would happen if the army did not relinquish power.
"We know our way back to the square," he said. "It only takes a facebook group to start a revolution now."
|
This is a source of information other than the tabloids and BBC. I find it helps to read different viewpoints.
english.aljazeera.net/
|
>> "We know our way back to the square," he said. "It only takes a facebook
>> group to start a revolution now."
Alas they don't know when to stop. They don't know what they are now playing with, they will facebook themselves into a massacre and severe martial law for the next 10 years.
|
I wonder why you personally attack me, mister Espada 111, first I was the Socialist Workers Party Representative of Car4Play, and now I am a Pontiff.
I have never attacked you personally, only your beloved USrael, but rest assured my friend, you will not be hearing from me again on this subject.
Dog-gone.
|
|
Please may we have our canal back now?
|
>> Dog-gone.
>>
Don't go too far Mucker.
|
I know the feeling Dog......
This is becoming the norm on here.
There is only one way to post, and that it with the more vocal posters, if you have a different opinion then the only way is to gently slide away into oblivion and leave them to it.
Brilliant marketing strategy for a relatively new forum to have.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 15 Feb 11 at 05:28
|
I have to agree Pat.
There is one thread that I find hard to read, and will not reply to, because some of the comments are SO wide off the mark due to some people THINKING they know everything when in fact they know not a bean.
I really think that people either need to rein themselves in a bit, or the mods need to use their powers.
|
It's so very noticable that when this is happening the forums actually go quiet as regards other posts, and to my mind shows that it isn't what the majority want to be involved with.
It does however present a picture of the future when there are only the more vocal left, sitting here with all the posts in capital letters shouting each other down:)
Pat
|
Mornin' all.
I agree with you, Pat.
I'm new to this forum, and it has struck me how the majority of the ill-tempered exchanges I've read originate in the 'non-motoring' bit. I see that just under the welcome message on the screen in front of me it states: 'All we ask is that you act in a respectful and courteous manner'. That spirit has been pretty scarce in some of the discussions.
Please tell me to mind my own business, but would it be sensible to restrict the non-motoring part of the forum to giving and receiving advice about, for example, which TV, fridge, widget, etc to buy? As in all other arenas, discussions about politics, religion, etc seem to degenerate pretty fast into slanging matches.
Thought for the day over. Tin hat donned.
|
Glad you plucked up courage to have your say boolean, and very welcome you are too.
There are some very good discussions on here in the early days where we were all delighted to find forum moderation that allowed us to have a civilised debate about politics, religion etc.
To ban these IMHO wouldn't be a positive step, but more of taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
This forum was pretty much self moderating and due to the good manners of the posters it used to work well.
Sadly a few have turned into monsters.
Much like those with children will recognise as the 'terrible two's'
They will push and push to overstep the mark to see where the boundary lies.
Sadly at the moment, there doesn't seem to be one that is applied across the board to everyone in a consistent manner.
There seems to be an heirarchy developing, much like a group of pack animals, and for those of us ( of who there are many) who don't like confrontation, or see it as a pleasure, it's counter productive.
But stick with us boolean, I'm sure it will be sorted soon:)
Pat
|
Fair enough, Pat, I see what you are saying.
I will stick around, albeit in a reasonably shy way, as I can't get to the computer often.
Have a good day, all.
|
>>This is becoming the norm on here.
There is only one way to post, and that it with the more vocal posters, if you have a different opinion then the only way is to gently slide away into oblivion and leave them to it.
Brilliant marketing strategy for a relatively new forum to have<<
I'm tired of this forum now Pat, have had so much 'stuff' removed by the nannies,
so Dog will just be a Lurcher from now on, I'll still 'black my nose' (can I say black?) daily and try to help anyone,
I may even change my handle to if it helps, Agh!
:)
|
Come on Dog, you can do better than that :)
Don't let them beat you, fight back and never let the bullies win!
Together the two rebels of the forum can NOT take this sitting down or we will justify being called downtrodden!
Pat
|
I guess the problem is that there are some here with very strong personal beliefs and with the freedom available, they have used this platform to express what they REALLY think, the sort of thing which would previously have gone unsaid in polite company.
The answer isnt to lie down and let them have their day, but to challenge them each and every time on each and every point. Some of them loose their edge when openly challenged.
|
Its perfectly valid to refer to the fact that Israel only exists due to US money, both money fed by Jewish Americans and US federal money. Its also true to suggest that a proportion of this money ends up feeding Jewish Radicals as well as the moderates, and its also true to suggest that Israeli politics is nearly as much of a mess as their Arab(?) neighbours.
It really doesn't help to have a catalyst plonked down in the middle of the Arab world, but even if you removed it the radical Arabs would still be a PITA and carry on infighting.
Frankly the Jewish state and the Arabs states are all as bad as each other, and I cant see any answer to the problem. Espada is a little over-sensitive, there really isnt any anti-Semitism on here. Just exasperation with the whole lot of them.
|
>>>some here with very strong personal beliefs and with the freedom available, they have used this platform to express what they REALLY think, the sort of thing which would previously have gone unsaid in polite company.
And you can't see this applies to Pat and Dog??
Take this thread... Dog uses a snide reference to Israel by typing USrael and makes anti-Israel posts 3 times. Espada then politely and factually posts his view of what after all is is his home country.
So Dog plays the wounded party but can't resist repeating his insult... *I have never attacked you personally, only your beloved USrael*
Then Pat is straight in as judge and jury having ID'd Dog as the underdog who needs her protection.
I genuinely have no axe to grind with anyone I mention but from the outsiders perspective it is the whole cosy coffee shop feeling of the forum that prevents it from moving forward as much as the spats which are rarely down to one side.
We have problems with our chickens fighting if they are kept in... a very similar thing is happening here.
BTW... There may be issues with US money in Israel Zero but the calculated spelling corruption of a fellow forum members home country is obviously intended to be disrespectful.
|
|
Ok I admit there may be the odd case of Anti Semitsm on here. I concede that USrael may be one of them.
|
|
I dunno Z. I don't think a dislike of the state of Israel would make one an anti-semite. Two different matters, surely?
|
|
IIRC from my uni days this sort of thing cropped up regularly at the weekly student general meeting (can't even remember what they were called now). Doesn't it help to make a distinction between Jews, as in 'just' followers of the Jewish religion, and Zionsists who believe in the right for Jews to have their own state ie. Israel, as I understand it?
|
Of course Alanovic is right. Disapproval of Israeli state policies is not the same thing as hatred of Jews.
But when these arguments arise, sympathisers with Zionism often claim they are the same thing. It's bad faith, like an unjust allegation of racism (which is just what it is).
|
>> the calculated spelling corruption of a fellow forum members home country is obviously intended to be disrespectful
Spot on Fenlander, and a very good post.
I hoped to get Dog to abandon USrael without mentioning it. Things like that provoke without instructing. Like the Panthers spelling America with a triple K. More annoying than anything else.
I also don't see why Dog should feel hard done by when Espada complains, quite mildly under the circumstances. We all have our loyalties and our prejudices.
As for Pat, I think she's being a bit ungrateful. She knows perfectly well she is, for the majority here, a sort of pet and mascot. A lady trucker! Yay!
I have to agree that the football thread is very boring and deja vu deja vu deja vu... A bit like being in the wrong sort of pub at the wrong time, everyone spouting confident balderdash...
|
>> for the majority here, a sort of pet and mascot. A lady trucker! Yay! <<
What a patronising remark.
And the reason for my frustration that it appears impossible for me to be taken seriously in any discussion.
Pat
|
|
A humourless mascot though, AC.
|
>> it appears impossible for me to be taken seriously in any discussion.
What nonsense. You are very often taken seriously and congratulated on points you make.
Really Pat, if you don't recognise the affection in which you are held I despair of you.
Patronising indeed! If I were you I would be screaming the place down alleging that I was being misunderstood.
|
...Really Pat, if you don't recognise the affection in which you are held...
Pat gets more green thumbs than anyone else, if that's any guide.
|
|
I have had the pleasure of meeting Pat, I assure you she is one of the "good people" and this forum would be worse off without her input and expertise.
|
A very happy country - Skoda
