Just reading a story suggesting that fella in the Jo Yeates murder investigation, the one who was supposed to be a little eccentric, may be cleared of involvement very soon.
Whether thats true or not, I did, reading all the rather nasty stories about him, wonder if the media had rather jumped the gun with him. It seems that because he was a bit odd, they presumed it must be him and went for him, digging up anything to fill newspapers.
Its a terrible thing when people are murdered, true enough, but if this chap is cleared as he seems to think he will be, is it really fair to have been hung drawn and quartered before a suspect has even been charged?
I know the UK press doesnt have much tolerance for more unusual people in this world, but this guy will never be the same again if he is simply an innocent party and I dont think its down to the Police, they are doing their job, but the media have really gone for him.
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Interesting to note that at yesterdays press conference ITN were banned by A&S Police due to their coverage of the investigation.
Very sad and I hope they find the culprit soon - I live just up the road, and the area in question is not really used to anything like this and is regarded as a safe area.
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I personaly think the media have been well out of hand. If they went digging on most of us here they could probably point us to being odd eccentrics.
If he is prooved inocent then hopefully he can win a lot of damages from the media.
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Id have no chance Rattle. A 30 year old with a divorce, a child I hardly see, I wear a flatcap and dont shave. I also, to the casual observer dont seem to work yet I have a £130k house. They would fill a fortnight just with that lot, esp if the ex's talked!
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>> Id have no chance Rattle. A 30 year old with a divorce, a child I
>> hardly see, I wear a flatcap and dont shave. I also, to the casual observer
>> dont seem to work yet I have a £130k house. They would fill a fortnight
>> just with that lot, esp if the ex's talked!
>>
'av 'er silenced then.:)
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>>'av 'er silenced then.:)<<
Shh! They say whenever you want a bus to come along none do... :-)
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>> If he is prooved inocent then hopefully he can win a lot of damages from the media.
This guy's life is over, guilty or innocent.
It's like being accused of rape. My mum (copper when she was younger) has some pretty controversial views on rape, she reckons of her whole time in the police she only believed 2 women. I'd write that off if it wasn't for my mum's known for compassion. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you don't publicise, you have no chance of the previous victims coming forward.
With murder and the media, you have to publicise the suspect in these cases where there aren't enough clues to hopefully tap something out of the public.
The media aren't any more guilty than us who buy the tripe temptingly posted on the front page. They're only filling a commercial gap. It's one of the reasons i like the internet. There's a lot of stuff gets reported on blogs and what not based on merit, rather than the need to shift paper.
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...There's a lot of stuff gets reported on blogs and what not based on merit, rather than the need to shift paper...
Be very careful what you read into 'blogs and what not', their unregulated nature is both their strength and a very major weakness.
The mainstream media comes in for a lot of criticism, but at least it's accountable.
There's something to complain to, sue, get some redress from.
It also competes, which means a story in, say, The Sun, is carefully examined by the others, partly to see if there's any holes it it which can be used for commercial advantage.
An anonymous blogger can post more or less anything, knowing there little chance of any comeback.
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>> The mainstream media comes in for a lot of criticism, but at least it's accountable.
>>
>> There's something to complain to, sue, get some redress from.
And exactly how is the guy in Bristol going to call them to account? Unlikley to have the money to sue and the PCC is worse than useless.
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If he was an unprincipled low life "personality" Max would be posing by the Roller again.
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>> If he was an unprincipled low life "personality" Max would be posing by the Roller
>> again.
>>
I see Mr Clifford has been spouting off again of late, 'defending' Mr Dewani, slagging our local justice system, the judges, the police comissioner, etc etc etc etc, and the tabloids have been lapping it up.
OK, so let the man have his day in court, and let evidence be presented.
But Max will say it has all been a fit-up, and given prejudice of 'johnny foreigner', then who wins?
Yep, we're a gobshyte little third world nation, us...
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...Yep, we're a gobshyte little third world nation, us...
And we'll soon be better than you at cricket as well. :)
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...And exactly how is the guy in Bristol going to call them to account?...
Not easily, but at least he knows who and where his 'enemy' is.
I didn't see the stories, but of course if they happen to be true, he will struggle to sue, irrespective of his resources.
He also has the protection of the legal restrictions on the reporting of police investigations.
Some people may say they are inadequate, but a road safety campaigner may concede a 70mph speed limit is better than none at all.
Anyway, where's the harm?
After all, reporters are 'slime' - as described by gordon bennet below.
Everyone knows what's in the newspapers, as written by the slime, is rubbish, don't they?
Last edited by: Iffy on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 21:54
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The whole case seems to have been sensationalised to some extent.
Strangely, the constant reference to "the landscape architect..." seemed to imply that a murder in a genteel middle-class environment was somehow more ghastly than one occuring in a council estate in Skelmersdale, for example. Would such a victim be repeatedly described as "the checkout operator Ethel Crumm"?
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I would be the 28 year old loner that still lives at home and who is self employed, looks more like 35 and who enjoys holidays alone and sometimes goes clubbing alone.
The reality is some what different but it is an example of how the media can twist things.
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As long as your clubbing doesn't involve seals Rattle, you're not strange ! You should read my profile...
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The 'crossbow' killer in Bradford was another example. This time he was guilty but some of the media made out as if the fact he was a student was relevant. I wasn't really was it? Admittedly he was studying a PhD which you could claim was linked in some way. But they kept saying student and PhD student.
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...media made out as if the fact he was a student was relevant...
It's no more than natural human curiosity, and it's applied to every story to a greater or lesser extent.
People are interested in another person's age, background, job, etc.
That applies to a murder victim or suspect, just as it does to those who feature in a less serious stories.
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>> I would be the 28 year old loner that still lives at home and who
>> is self employed, looks more like 35 and who enjoys holidays alone and sometimes goes
>> clubbing alone.
>>
>> The reality is some what different but it is an example of how the media
>> can twist things.
You forgot heavy drinker.
Nope seems good to me
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 6 Jan 11 at 20:19
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look, the guy was manner from heaven for the press. If you had dreamed up a photo and profile of a pervert, this guy fitted it to a "T"
How could he not have been guilty?
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I have to confess I, my wife and mother in-law found him strange from his appearance on TV and were not surprised he was taken in for questioning. And I suppose ruling him in or out involved examine the flats. But their DNA would obviously be in the other flats because he owned both and she must have been in his at some point recently too (signing contract for example).
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The Icing on the cake, for the press? He was a teacher! All their dreams came at once.
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>> The Icing on the cake, for the press? He was a teacher! All their dreams
>> came at once.
>>
And in an independent school, wasn't it? The little sprinkly bits on top of the icing.
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I drink a lot when when I go clubbing, don't drink anything at during the week. The last time I had any booze was on NYE.
I quite like being ecentric, it beats working in an office filling in forms 9-5 :).
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>>I quite like being ecentric, it beats working in an office filling in forms 9-5 :).<<
Bravo that man. I only wear my flatcap because people seem to think im a gentleman farmer, which amuses me no end.
On a serious note, the vast majority of my school teachers in the early 90's were quite eccentric, infact had one turned up in a new suit rather than some charity shop reject, it would have been more notable.
Wild hair, the throwing of objects, living in camper vans, the whole bit, seemed rather normal when I was at school. Half my teachers were a bit weird. Maybe thats why Im not swayed by the 'he's a bit odd' rhetoric.
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It is Impossible to 'Judge a Book by it's cover". End of.
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My geography teacher was a bit eccentric. He used to sidle into the store cupboard for a quick smoke and I'll never forget how yellow his fingers were. He had a beard, something a lot of people find suspicious nowadays including Clarkson. But he also taught geology, and there were only three of us in the class. We went on a geology trip to the Isle of Wight, where he drove the transit van too fast while wearing shades and a fag hanging out of his mouth. Fantastic man.
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We had one who was a Punk, he had pink glasses, long blonde hair. He was an oddball but a brilliant teacher who run lots of after school classes. When he died a facegroup dedicated to him attracted 5000's of members all the comments from his former pupiles good.
Yet from his looks the press could easily get the wrong idea.
I am not saying this bloke is guilty or not I have no idea, but it is not for us or the press to speculate it is upto the sciences.
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I had a Welsh History teacher, complete firebrand with the oratory of Neil Kinnock and the voice of Richard Burton. He was so left wing he made Arthur Scargill look like Maggie Thatcher.
No way you could fail to learn history from him, albeit all my historical knowledge appears with a left wing bias!
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>> I had a Welsh History teacher, complete firebrand...
I had a Welsh history teacher. They went to prison for arson years before I was taught by them. Didn't stop them moving on and getting a job as a headmaster either.
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>> it is not for us or the press to speculate it is upto the sciences.
That's what they do though don't they? Whether it's wrong or right they whip things into a frenzy and over dramatize them. You only have to see the 'Big Freeze' headlines every year. It's one of the reasons I gave up reading the Daily Wail apart from the bad habit of going into the newsagents and buying it. I was getting increasingly wound up over the stories for no reason. It was turning me into an imaginery one man vigilante, 44 Magnum in my hand and a rocket launcher over my shoulder. I decided to calm down.
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I imagine many of us here wouldn't be doing male modelling as a sideline, i'd probably break the lens, and as such must be considered public enemy number one presumably.
As i've stated many times i do not buy newspapers, hardly worthy of using as loo roll such is the rubbish they churn out, but even i couldn't avoid the various radio bulletins referring to this chap.
Should this fellow be cleared without a slur (nudge nudge, no smoke without fire eh ethel), will any of the vultures feel remorse, not on your nelly they won't, slime.
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>> I would be the 28 year old loner that still lives at home and who
>> is self employed, looks more like 35 and who enjoys holidays alone and sometimes goes
>> clubbing alone.
>>
>> The reality is some what different but it is an example of how the media
>> can twist things.
And all of us here would be 'obsessive users of an internet chatroom'!!!
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>> And all of us here would be 'obsessive users of an internet chatroom'!!!
>>
I resemble that remark.
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Many of us are subconciously affected by the what people look like, never mind if we hear them speak. My immediate reaction to the Bristol school teacher was that he was a not very pretty woman; I was not suprised that he was taken in for questioning and that's about the end of my interest in him.
I agree that his involvement with the police, even if innocent, and the subsequent media frenzy isn't likely to give him a very pleasant 2011.
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After 2 weeks, the police are now searching drains round the flat..
I thought that kind of thing was done first to get any evidence before flushed away by rain.
I get the (possibly unfair) feeling that the investigation has not been best handled. Pick your obvious suspect and concentrate on him. OOPS...
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The problem with the media is that the large proportion of people cannot see how it works.
I recently posted a thread about a tragic crash in Glasgow, 2 girls knocked over by a guy in a Range Rover who was subsequently diagnosed with epilepsy.
Today's paper carries this story
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2011/01/07/dj-haunted-by-death-of-two-girls-in-street-crash-living-in-fear-of-lynch-mob-86908-22831960/
where those closest to him are pleading for his safety, saying he is living in fear and that he wants left alone. However in the process they have got his photo in the paper, a note about his workplace etc etc.
Now there may be another side whereby the paper did their "we will run a story anyway so you might as well tell us some facts or we will make it up" but this is the reason that even if a wrong story is printed, you are best advised to leave it alone as the papers will love you to keep the story going for them (note that Mr Sheridan!)
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Back to the original question, I see the dead woman's family are grateful for the attention the case has received.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12142332
The media only reflected the enormous public interest in the case.
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The Police are very skillful at drip feeding information to the assembled jackels at crucial moments in any investigation, they are unlikely bed-fellows but there is a certain amount of mutual interests being served.
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...but there is a certain amount of mutual interests being served...
Quite so.
Newsdesk to reporter: "Is there any update on the murder?"
The answer: "No, she's still dead," is not good enough, fresh stories are required.
The police rely heavily on information from members of the public in a case such as this one, and they know the best way to reach the public is via the mainstream media.
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They're at it again.
Long bit in last nights Standard about current suspect, how he'd split up with his girl and how she looked like Ms Yeates.
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5 quid says the latest arrest of the dutch bloke will turn out to be a dead end as well.
The Old bill there are getting pretty desperate it seems, If your male, dont walk around Clifton you will get nicked.
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...5 quid says the latest arrest of the dutch bloke will turn out to be a dead end as well...
Could still be a dead end, but it's going to be a good while now until we find out:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12257299
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...They're at it again...Long bit in last nights Standard about current suspect, how he'd split up with his girl and how she looked like Ms Yeates...
The aim of the legislation is to prevent a trial being prejudiced, that is a juror reading something and forming an unfair opinion of the defendant.
In this case, even if this suspect is charged, the trial will not typically be for up to a year.
So for the Standard's report to be prejudicial, a juror yet to be identified as a juror must read the report, remember it, and use it against the defendant in a year's time.
This also assumes two more things, the report itself is prejudicial, and the juror, who let's remember, doesn't yet know he's going to be a juror, is so weak and feeble minded as to be influenced by the report.
A report saying this man has split up from a blonde girlfriend is arguably not prejudicial - that doesn't make anyone a murderer.
And another thing, the jurors will be drawn from Bristol and the surrounding district, so they are unlikely to read a report in a newspaper which doesn't circulate in their area.
If the Standard is worried, and they know what they are doing, they may not have used that story online.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 22 Jan 11 at 14:35
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'If your male, don't walk around Clifton, you'll get nicked'
Disregarding the misspelt 'your', you don't half talk some old pony sometimes Iffy! No, hang on a minute, you might be right, yes, that's it, nick anyone walking around. That'll do. Was he walking around when he was arrested then Iffy?
They may or may not have got the first arrest right but contradictory statements by the old teacher probably didn't help himself and warranted further investigation. Remember Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman in Soham? Suspect Huntley making statements to the media. It's a fairly well known fact that some murderers will have a continuing interest in the scene of their crime, revisiting it or over involving themselves with the media or helping with searches.
But you're probably right, not safe for females to walk alone in Clifton, or males now it seems!
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...you don't half talk some old pony sometimes Iffy!...
I do, but in this case it was Zero.
That's the second time in a week I've been mistaken for him.
Should I be worried?
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...Arrested maybe...
Could happen - I'm a marked man in Clifton now, thanks to you.
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A good few years ago, there was a murder in Nottinghamshire; a young girl by the name of Colette Aram. No-one was caught initially, but I was one of several men who were questioned by the police during the course of the investigation. I hasten to add that I was never arrested or charged.
Three years ago the police re-opened the case; I was by now living in Wales, and was surprised (and a bit perturbed) to receive a visit from two of Nottinghamshire's finest, who informed me that they'd re-opened the case, and wanted to go over details.
Naturally my memories had dimmed over time, but I co-operated, and at their request provided a DNA swab.
In 2009 a man called Paul Hutchinson, same age as me, was tried,confessed to and convicted of Colette Aram's murder. He was caught by DNA matching.
Thankfully I didn't suffer the indignity of arrest or the press witch-hunt as Mr. Jefferies did, but I wholeheartedly sympathise with the appalling pressure that poor man must be under.
I had teachers like him at my grammar school, and without exception they were dedicated professionals whose eccentricities made learning more fun.
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>> I had teachers like him at my grammar school, and without exception they were dedicated
>> professionals whose eccentricities made learning more fun.
Ditto HarleyM, Masters and Mistresses who made a huge difference to our lives, taught us that it's OK to be different and commanded affectionate respect.
Were you given any assurances or proof that your DNA would be wiped from the system once you were out of the frame, or was that a handy gain for them without all the bother of having to arrest you.
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>> Were you given any assurances or proof that your DNA would be wiped from the
>> system once you were out of the frame, or was that a handy gain for
>> them without all the bother of having to arrest you.
>>
I can't remember if I asked or not. Don't plan on it being of any advantage to them! ;-)
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...but I was one of several men who were questioned by the police during the course of the investigation...
There was a mass interview - no widespread DNA tests in those days - of men in Sunderland after police hunting the Yorkshire Ripper received the now notorious hoax tape.
It broke some marriages in the North East because some wives assumed - rightly or wrongly - that if their husbands were interviewed, they must have been using prostitutes.
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...Iffy, I'm so sorry!...
Cough the job and move on.
After all, no one's going to prison over it, are they?
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Tee hee! I see he's been charged now. Let's hope he's the right one.
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yup he has.
another 5 quid says the case collapses.
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...another 5 quid says the case collapses...
There was some talk of a DNA sample on the body.
Juries seem to find DNA-match evidence compelling.
There may be such evidence against this defendant, or there may not.
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Why do you think that Zero?
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when the eccentric woz arrested, I felt in the deepest depths of my being that he was innocent.
When I saw the Dutch geezer, I gnu they had got the murderer,
Of course - ya can't condemn someone on looks alone, or I'd have been locked away years ago.
:)
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I think it's a mere coincidence (albeit a good one) that he looks like a murderer. What really sealed it for him is the fact that he was walking in Clifton.
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...What really sealed it for him is the fact that he was walking in Clifton...
And what's worse is he was stepping on the cracks in the pavement.
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>> I think it's a mere coincidence (albeit a good one) that he looks like a
>> murderer. >>
Anybody who has been questioned for murder and had his picture splashed in the paper as a murderer looks like a murderer.
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>> Anybody who has been questioned for murder and had his picture splashed in the paper
>> as a murderer looks like a murderer.
>>
This is him in today's on-line Daily Mail
Dutch architect Vincent Tabak at work presentation in January 2009
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/01/23/article-1349615-0CDD7003000005DC-949_306x423.jpg
Last edited by: John H on Sun 23 Jan 11 at 17:40
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>> Why do you think that Zero?
Just a feeling.
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Does anybody else think there has been a lot of fuss about this full stop? I know a young woman was murdered. But it is actually not that unusual, somebody was murdered in a food factory over thw weekend but it hasn't made national news.
It seems if the person is a young proffesional female it would always be a lot more news worthy than a 40 year old factory worker.
My mates cousin was stabbed to death in a pub last year and again it barely even made the local papers.
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Not sure I'd go as far as a 'lot of fuss' but there's no doubt a photogenic white professional female victim, particularly one in steady relationship and with no apparent skeletons in the closet hits all the media buttons
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...with no apparent skeletons in the closet hits all the media buttons...
As above, and it was Christmas time and there were plenty of images of the lass.
The biggest factors were there was a missing body and manhunt, which meant the story had legs.
Many murders are domestic and have none of the above.
The deed is done in the house with a kitchen knife, and the first thing anybody knows about it is when the killer phones the ambulance or hands himself in.
The media restrictions really start to bite when somebody has been charged, so expect a lot of circumstantial reporting from Bristol Magistrates' Court tomorrow, and even less from the first crown court appearance, probably on Thursday or Friday.
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Good write up and scathing attack on the hacks that have kicked the backside out of this story in this week's Eye - even better was that it was written before the current charge was brought.
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I didn't realise Mogwai wrote a song about you Rattle. One of my favourites too.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnsid5xVWzU
Sorry for thread drift.
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This case has brought to my attention that landscape gardeners are now called landscape architects.
And that someone (Mr Tabak) can actually make a living by being an 'expert' in how people walk around buildings. Especially sports centres.
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Postscript to this one in that the Attorney General thought two papers had overstepped the mark. Mirror and Sun both brought before the High Court to answer for contempt. Proven in both cases. Interesting as because proceedings against the Landlord are not going to happen (Tabak having confessed to killing albiet with diminshed responsibilty), there's no real case to be predjudiced. Report can be found here tinyurl.com/3plvtyl (pdf80kb).
Judges considered and to some extent accepted Iffy's point upthread that, had there been a trial, passage of time and a judges direction would mitigate any effect on a jury. Another point raised and accepted however was extent to which prejudicial coverage might deter witnesses from coming forward for a putative defendant - thus affecting his chances of alibi or other fact disproving involvement etc.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 30 Aug 11 at 13:38
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...Judges considered and to some extent accepted Iffy's point upthread that, had there been a trial, passage of time and a judges direction would mitigate any effect on a jury...
Fairly standard defence/mitigation for a newspaper when the unpleasant whiff of contempt is in the air, so I knew the Sun and Mirror lawyers would use it.
I've used it myself a few times to persuade a judge not to impose a gagging order.
Not always successfully, of course.
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Did the media get a bit carried away? - mikeyb
