We discovered last night that there was no water coming out of the hot taps in our house. Straightaway we suspected a frozen pipe in the loft since the cold water was fine. Went up to find that the header tank for the heating system and the larger main water tank both had ice on the water surface. Neither of the inlet supplies to the tanks were working and the outlet pipe from the header tank was frozen. Clearly a couple of blocked pipes up in the loft. We left the heating on overnight and opened the loft hatch to let some warm air in. This morning water coming out of the hot taps as it should.
Now, our loft is well insulated and all the pipes and tanks are lagged. The overnight temperatures in our part of North Yorkshire have been extremely low (typically below -10ºC) recently.
My question is this: how can we stop this happening again? Clearly the loft insulation is working and stopping heat escaping into the loft. The insulation on the pipes is quite thick (not sure how thick but maybe 1 inch) and the tanks are covered with foam blankets but this is clearly not enough for these exceptionally low temperatures. We are planning to leave the hatch open until it warms up a bit but I do wonder what to do in the future.
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Not a Barratt built home is it? :-) Mine is and i'm less than impressed.
We had to cut away insulation from under the water tank, apparently it's like step 1 of the how to become a plumber course, never fit insulation under the header tank. Ours was doing exactly the same as yours but we've not had any repeats since cutting away the insulation to allow heat up to the tank and we got to -15 the other night (it froze in -16 ish) without problem.
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Nope, not a Barrat house. The bulider who built it did so to live in it himself. It appears to be quite well built.
I will have a look under the tank fro any insulation and get it shifted if it is there.
I am not so worried about the tanks - a bit more lagging will sort them out and there was not much ice anyway. My main concern is the pipes - well lagged but appeared to be still frozen. I guess the freezing may have taken place at the points where the pipes join the tanks.
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Well, surpirse surprise. I had a look in the loft when I got home yesterday - the area under the tanks is nicely insulated.
Leaving the heating on all night and the hatch open has solved the immediate problem in that we now have hot water again and the tanks are ice free. Now to make sure it does not happen again. I plan to improve the pipe insulation as there are some parts, particularly at bends, where it could be better and the tank blankets will be replaced. And the insulation underneath shifted.
I hate plumbing issues!
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>> We had to cut away insulation from under the water tank, apparently it's like step
>> 1 of the how to become a plumber course, never fit insulation under the header
>> tank.
There should be no insulation under the header tank or cold water tank. They should be insulated all over apart from that. Insulate around the bottom, but not under it. The warmth from the ceiling is then sufficient to prevent freezing.
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Same problem here in the extension. I suspect a cold draught. Going to put a wooden surround round it (simple box stuff) and cover it with 300mm of lagging.
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It looks like your tanks need additional insulation. Do you have any old blankets or continental quilts you no longer use? If not, best take a trip to B&Q.
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At this time of year I leave the heating on permanently. Depending on the type of boiler the method changes. For a combi, I turn the central heating temp down to 1 or 2 and just leave it idling along 24hrs a day until temps rise above freezing at night. Room stat stays at 21C.
For a more traditional hot water cylinder system, I keep the water temp up (mine's at 66C) but turn the room stat down to about 15C at night and 18C during the day and leave it running. Espadrille, who feels the cold, hasn't complained yet.
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.>>>Espadrille, who feels the cold, hasn't complained yet. <<<
Well if you are out all day, you can turn it down another 1-2 degrees!
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Skoda is spot on with his advice about REMOVING insulation. I have reported elsewhere that I'm using www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CCPGE01.html on a pipe in the garage leading to an outside tap
I have wondered if an aquarium heater may be necessary for some people if it gets cold enough. Drop one in the tank and let it push just a few watts in.
John
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In the old days the tip was leave a light bulb (say, 60w) on under the tank in really cold weather. Don't try it with with a low energy one though !
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Leave the loft hatch open for a while, or in these extreme conditions a fan heater in the loft may be required to thaw things out. Beware of burst pipes when it does thaw out.
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I'll leave my heating on all night when its *really* cold, I also leave my cold tap on a tad more than a fast drip so I get the same effect up in the loft, which is insulated to 10"
Last Winter, I put a bowl of water in the loft, just to see like - it froze solid :)
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I fitted a second room thermostat across the contacts of the programmer. When the programmer has the system 'off', if the temperature drops below the threshold of this second 'stat, the heating comes on.
It means I can leave the house with the heating off, but know it's protected against freezing. I usually leave the second 'stat at about 5 degrees Centigrade.
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The Honeywell timer we have has frost protection at 5 deg. It is not possible to turn that off. You would have to turn the boiler off at the boiler.
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>>The Honeywell timer we have has frost protection at 5 deg.
I, obviously, must have bought a cheaper model.
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>> >>The Honeywell timer we have has frost protection at 5 deg.
>>
>> I, obviously, must have bought a cheaper model.
>>
5 degress C in the house itself could still mean minus in the loft. Tip in a quality daily was leave the temp in the house at 12 degrees and open loft access
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I fixed the problem of freezing pipes in the loft by installing the boiler in there!
Many (some?) modern boilers have a built in frost protection system whereby they come on at low fire and run the heating till the water temp wams up. Doesn'r really work on mine though, as I have a 'non-standard' system, and that wouldn't actually run the heating.....
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>> 5 degress C in the house itself could still mean minus in the loft
True but we don't have pipes up there thankfully. I also have the same timer to come on at the moment if the temperature drops below 13 deg C - it has target temperatures for 6 times throughout the day.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 23 Dec 10 at 08:31
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>> The Honeywell timer we have has frost protection at 5 deg. It is not possible
>> to turn that off. You would have to turn the boiler off at the boiler.
>>
That is nothing to do with protecting pipes or tanks in the loft, which is what the OP of this thread is asking about.
Your frost protection device is there to prevent damage to the boiler - as it is exposed to fresh ambient air coming in to the combustion chamber.
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Loft hatch open and a cheap fan heater up there on frost setting would be my solution.
Running water in the wrong place can cause enormous amounts of damage, and the thought of a burst at the top of the house is almost too awful to contemplate.
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>> 5 degress C in the house itself could still mean minus in the loft
The hot water cylinder sits directly under the cold tank. Loft insulation is run up the side of the cold tank. Only a layer of plasterboard between the two. The hot water is thermo-syphon off the boiler. If the boiler fires up we've got hot water. The hot water cylinder acts as a heat store.
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>> I'll leave my heating on all night when its *really* cold, I also leave my
>> cold tap on a tad more than a fast drip so I get the same
>> effect up in the loft, which is insulated to 10"
Be VERY careful that the waste pipe doesn't freeze up. That would cause your sink to overflow...
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...Be VERY careful that the waste pipe doesn't freeze up. That would cause your sink to overflow...
The dripping tap is a good tip, but the tap shouldn't be left unattended.
A friend at the caravan site left his tap running last week, the waste pipe froze and he flooded his en-suite bathroom and bedroom.
I have left a tap dripping in my caravan in the past, but only for a few hours overnight at a rate which wouldn't fill the sink.
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>>Be VERY careful that the waste pipe doesn't freeze up. That would cause your sink to overflow<<
Yes, that was mentioned on a similar thread recently, by Humph D a'Bout, among others,
Re: the OP - he replied further up the thread that there was indeed insulation under his water tank,
I had no insulation there - until I had the loft area topped up by 'professionals' :)
(now removed!)
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Lot of interesting points here. In our present house, when we were forced to replace the 25 yr old boiler (thanks a bunch BG) we decided to do away with the loft tanks and pipes. Always a concern, and a daft idea given that we occasionally have prolonged frosts. Now use an Albion mainsflow indirect HW tank. All pipes to loft removed together with water tanks. Will need to repeat if/when we move to Buxton, but I doubt BG will get the job. Condensate drain still a worry though: freezing at the point where it exits the house wall (externally only 75 mm length) which is quite difficult to insulate fully, so a small ice stalagtite still forms at the very outlet if not removed frequently. Obviously the wrong size (22mm) instead of 32mm so BG are going to be pressed to re-do it in the New Year.
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...Condensate drain still a worry though: freezing at the point where it exits the house wall...
Just seen my mate the plumber to wish Happy Christmas to.
"I'm everybody's mate this week," he told me.
One of his most frequent jobs has been condensate pipes.
Apparently, if the pipe is left frozen and the water backs up into the boiler, it can mean a new boiler.
So the pipe's well worth keeping an eye on.
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>>>In our present house, when we were forced to replace the 25 yr old boiler (thanks a bunch BG)
?
Did they say you had to and quote some regulation?
They did to me: lying bar stewards. I threw them out...
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CO leaking from the seal around the combustion chamber. Trivial amount at the time, but if not fixed it would continue to deteriorate. BG had claimed no spares available, and naturally I was sceptical. Unfortunately I couldn't locate any spares. But short of a bodge on the appliance by me, with risk of prosecution, I was unable to outmanoeuvre the snivelling etc etc git. Pain in wallet ensued. I'd have bought elsewhere but they were as unconvincing as BG if not more! I have a record of the number of visits BG have paid to "rectify" various bodges and failures, not all of which have been their fault. Just most of them!
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Old fashioned water tanks I knew long ago always had some sort of light removable wooden box inverted over it, draped with old carpets and blankets, encasing the tank and pipework so in effect making it thermally-speaking part of the room below.
Lagging pipes in a cold atmosphere just ensures that whatever heat there is cannot get in.
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>>lagging pipes in a cold atmosphere just ensures that whatever heat there is cannot get in<<
But there isn't any heat - in-a-cold-atmosphere, that's why they have to be lagged.
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Well just been up in loft yesterday to replace ball vlvle... Surprisingly warm despite the insulation (300mm) but maybe that was due to leaving the loft door open.
Removed insulation above hot water tank - which is in airing cupboard below the cold water tak, added 200mm of insutlation on top of the water tank.
That will have to do until spring..
(I have a joblot of 10 Pipe Freeze aerosols (commercial not consumer so 500mls I think) bought dirt cheap on ebay which makes removing water taps/valves etc so much easier...)
Last edited by: madf on Fri 24 Dec 10 at 14:10
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>> Removed insulation above hot water tank - which is in airing cupboard below the cold
>> water tak, added 200mm of insutlation on top of the water tank.
>>
For good measure, drill four or five 10mm or 15mm holes through the plasterboard ceiling in the cupboard that houses the HW cylinder - assuming that the loft tank is situated just above it.
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>> >>
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>> But there isn't any heat - in-a-cold-atmosphere, that's why they have to be lagged.
>>
No, you have missed my point. If you enclose the whole tank in a bonnet of some kind, and the pipes are run so that they are either inside the bonnet or low down at joist level (and underneath the insulation), then they are inside a cold but not freezing atmosphere, and shouldn't be lagged. The aim is to let house warmth get to the pipes, not insulate them.
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>>No, you have missed my point<<
Yes - I got your point Cliff, but - in the final analysis, me thinks it's better to do away with tanks of water in the loft,
and fit a combi boiler (not that I would), I suppose I'm lucky, like looseat len I have my water tank directly above my hot water cylinder, and now I've removed the insulation that the 'professionals' fitted under my tank, I should be OK.
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>>I suppose I'm lucky, like looseat len I have my water tank directly above my hot water cylinder
Not lucky, someone put a little bit of thought into it I reckon.
My house was originally built with a solid fuel fire and back boiler. Thermo-syphon was used to heat the hot water cylinder that was almost directly above.
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>>My house was originally built with a solid fuel fire and back boiler<<
Same here loo, built in 1936 - so, before the whoa, it has a fireplace in every room,
inc. the kitchen, where the broiler is.
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Our previous house would have had a fire in every room apart from the smaller fourth bedroom (no chimney stack). It still had evidence of the supply for gas lamps too. Built around 1909.
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So did you have a chimney stack for every fireplace then,
this house had 4 but one was removed to accommodate fitted wardrobes.
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>> So did you have a chimney stack for every fireplace then,
We had three chimney stacks - for that size house I thought that would be fairly normal. Current house only has two but again had a fire in every room. One is shared between kitchen/back rooms.
There was a hatch for the coal chute on the side of our old house too.
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>> >>My house was originally built with a solid fuel fire and back boiler<<
>>
>> Same here loo, built in 1936 - so, before the whoa, it has a fireplace
>> in every room,
>> inc. the kitchen, where the broiler is
We are similar in our house.. built a little before then.. like 100 years.. Fireplaces everywhere.
(and servants bell pushes and bells in the kitchen.. but unfortunately the servants have long since died)
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>>We are similar in our house.. built a little before then.. like 100 years.. Fireplaces everywhere<<
I stand to be corrected but - shirley it must be a mark of quality, to have a chimney stack for every fire?
We had a 1930's mundane jobbie in Sussex that had the fire places in the corner of the room,
so they could share the brest, as it were.
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>> We had a 1930's mundane jobbie in Sussex that had the fire places in the
>> corner of the room, so they could share the brest, as it were.
>>
My 1930 house had /has the bedroom fireplaces in the corner and the lounge & dining room chimney brests do not go straight up but curve within the room to join up the the upstairs so there are two flues together in the corner of the bedrooms.
The rooms downstairs have an arch in one alcove alongside the conventional looking chimney brest. This disguises the flue changing to the corner of the room.
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>>>The rooms downstairs have an arch in one alcove alongside the conventional looking chimney brest. This disguises the flue changing to the corner of the room.
Ditto our 1925 place.... it means in the bedroom above that arrangement the chimney breast is 2/3 the room width right into the corner
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I can confirm, having spent the whole of 2010 on a plumbing course, that there should be NO insulation under the tanks in the loft. Better to "waste" a little heat energy than suffer the consequences of frozen pipes up there.
It's worth bearing in mind that to thaw a frozen pipe the temperature only has to be above 0°C - heating the pipes intensely will not necessarily improve the situation, but leaving the loft hatch open and allowing some warmth to permeate the whole area will.
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In our previous house, I was also surprised the hot water cylinder was in the cellar. For a gravity fed system that seemed wrong to me. But it did work fine. Boiler was next to it.
We never had problems with frozen pipes in the loft but when I lived there we didn't have such low temperatures!
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100 years old house with cavity brickwork!! Very narrow as are lots of ex workers cottages/property's around here. Two bedrooms only and both bedroom fire places still intact and could work if one desired.
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How to prevent frozen pipes? - Skoda
