- Except nobody's laughing. How pathetic. What a national embarrassment. 4 inches of snow on Saturday has a knock-on effect in to Wednesday. Who is worse: BA or BAA?
I suspect that BA employs hundreds of disgruntled jobsworths who will be quite happy to see the airline slide further into disarray, and damn the consequences. Isn't it a bit like British Leyland in the 70s all over again?
And should we sack BAA from Heathrow, or even consider nationalising the place to keep the country moving if ever there is a more serious crisis?
Funny how BAA had to sell-off Gatwick, and the new owners have done a pretty good job at keeping things moving?
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>>what a joke<<<
Yep it sure is! and my local counciller will be getting a call from me first thing!
Our little town has seen not one grain of salt/grit either this or the last snow fall. We lie in a "loop" off the main Cumbrian coastway, all of which is at the time of posting completly clear, the town however is still virtually at a standstill due to roads and pavements layered with a four-inch thick layer of packed snow/ice, the pavements are totally unusable. A woman has just died after slipping on the ice and smashing her skull in, on a pavement she had used all her life twice daily! - still the council have done sweet diddly!
Tonight, i was stood talking outside our local when a Gritter went past "lights flashing". My friend commented that he`d put nothing down! As the road is virtually a cul-de-sac, finishing at the "industrial estate". We knew he had to come back. so on his return we flagged him down and told him he was not spreading anything and that he was probably blocked up.
(True as I write this!) He replied, I`m not blocked. I`m empty! Ive been told to drive about so that people think we`ve salted, we haven`t, we haven`t got any! - but it cuts down on the complaints!.
I only wish i`d had a tape recorder! - I would have looked forward to attending the next council meeting! instead it`ll be a phone-call to one so called counciller, and i`ll have slept on it! Grrr!
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Up at 5am to put my sister on the Air New Zealand flight to LHR from HK, it is already 4 hours late and still on the tarmac in HK with concerns over a landing slot at LHR, the Quantas and BA flights are all cancelled. Probably no National Express when she gets home either.
It seems a little embarrassing to put it mildly, I know it's unseasonably cold back home but surely an airport can keep its runways open in 2010 ?
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Grate Britain. Did we win the war and if so.....................How?
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...Did we win the war and if so.....................How?
Well, think of the key engagements of WW2 that included the UK: Battle of Britain - summer; Alamein - desert; D-Day - summer again. You have to look to the Arctic convoys to find a significant cold-weather achievement.
Coincidence? We should be told.
};---)
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>> I suspect that BA employs hundreds of disgruntled jobsworths who will be quite happy to
>> see the airline slide further into disarray, and damn the consequences. Isn't it a bit
>> like British Leyland in the 70s all over again?
Actually BA comes out of this pretty well. They could see what was going to happen, and cancelled flights early. They will be the first to recover because stuff is not out of place.
As for BAA? yup useless.
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Agree re BA.
As for BAA, to be fair they have not been able to justify massive investment in ice and snow clearing equipment that would sit inactive for 364.5 days per year, their shareholders would not let them. However now that we have had two winters in a row with such conditions they will surely be better prepared next year.
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My brother in law works for BAA as an airside marshal at Heathrow, and is on the snow clearance callout list. He has been home pretty much to grab a few hours sleep and eat since Friday. It is not through lack of effort on the part of the workforce.
In his view, there are two main problems: Lack of kit, and lack of means to safely dispose of the cleared snow.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 08:45
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Its pretty easy to clear the runways. Very easy in fact.
But as DP says they have nowhere to put the snow, thousands of tons of the stuff.
The real issues is the stands. You cant get heavy kit in around the planes, so it has to be done with much smaller kit, hand work and loads of people.
In the States, where this happens a lot, they cheat. An airport that knows it will be snowed in, shuts down early BEFORE the snow comes, so it has empty stands.
Dont forget Heathrow has over a Hundred stands, nearly all full of aircraft that have to be worked round.
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I do wonder about the public though... They interviewed a woman who had been at Heathrow since Friday... and was only going to France... The interviewer asked he if she'd though of alternative ways of getting there and she replied that she had but trains in France weren't running! Err yes they are, though like ours not all of them! She could have got there and back in the time she's been sat at the airport.
Devonite, someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that grit wasn't effective on snow (esp 4") so thats probably why they haven't gritted?
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 08:54
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Hobby's right. What about St Pancras? Who, in their right mind, joins the end of a 1km queue without a ticket (or with come to that)?
John
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They did... but they did get a train at the end of it which was more than she's done... they interviewed one woman last night who was confident they would travel this morning, they were doing first come, first served on Eurostar - though to get to France I'd have thought a train ride to Dover and a walk on ferry crossing to Callais and then a local train ride to Paris from there would work? Might take a little longer though...
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What a bunch of moaners, it's mother nature, she always wins. The BAA probably have the problem they had on the M8 last week when the snow froze so hard it broke snowploughs.
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Too many travellers expect a blue chip service for fish and chip money.
BAA could make Heathrow winter proof given the money, but passengers weaned on cheap air travel would baulk at the knock-on cost to their tickets.
A similar argument applies to gritting the roads.
Local authorities could buy more grit and gritters and employ more men, but who wants to pay an increase in council tax?
Last edited by: Iffy on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 09:28
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Were things better when the BAA was a public body and not a privatised and then sold to some foreign corporation ?
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Well put, iffy.
I suspect many people have become quite blasé about all forms of transport - particularly air travel.
"I paid my £10 on EasyAir so I want to fly to Prague - and I want it now or I'll stamp and stamp and stamp....."
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Gatwick spent £8 million in snow clearing equipment this year after last winter's shambles.
Heathrow ?
"There are over 60 vehicles and 50 staff keeping the runways clear
An extra £500,000 has been invested this year in snow-fighting technology
Heathrow has storage for 500,000 litres of de-icing fluid
Each de-icing vehicle can hold a massive 60,000 litres and it takes around 25 mins to de-ice each runway"
ftalphaville.ft.com/search?q=heathrow
So in other words, it has enough capacity to refill each machine 1 and a half times and then runs out of fluid which is delivered by tanker...
They are not serious. Mickey Mouse could do better.
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>> Too many travellers expect a blue chip service for fish and chip money.
>>
>> BAA could make Heathrow winter proof given the money, but passengers weaned on cheap air
>> travel would baulk at the knock-on cost to their tickets.
>>
>>
How many budget airlines use Heathrow ? I thought it was all the flagships.
I suspect BAA's debt problems might have more to do with it:
www.thisismoney.co.uk/markets/article.html?in_article_id=520047&in_page_id=3&position=moretopstories
Last edited by: gmac on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 10:14
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Heathrow event is more embarrassing (compared to Gatwick or other airports) because several long haul national carriers use Heathrow airport.
People have been stranded in places as far as Australia, Hong Kong, India etc. because landing not possible in Heathrow!
Some local newspapers there printed the images of refugee camp like scenario in Heathrow!
Last edited by: movilogo on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 10:21
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...How many budget airlines use Heathrow ? I thought it was all the flagships...
Plenty of cheap flights from Heathrow on the flag carriers, particularly long-haul with a change.
Google 'flights to Australia' and you will be offered Singapore Airlines, MAS, Cathay, Emirates, a couple I've never heard of, etc etc.
...I suspect BAA's debt problems might have more to do with it:...
How is it going to get out of debt?
By charging more for its airport management service.
The charges feed back via the airlines to travellers, who don't want to pay.
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All these problems with the runway clearing, How do the Royal Airforce cope with the runways at Waddington?
I guess they shove it on the grass at the sides of the runway there not screaming there shut, but then again the raf have sold off most of there stock.!!
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>> I guess they shove it on the grass at the sides of the runway there
>> not screaming there shut, but then again the raf have sold off most of there
>> stock.!!
You expect them to announce to the world that they are shut?
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Does this sound familiar? It's a House of Commons report 5 years ago.
Note to Transport Committee – House of Commons
Disruption caused by severe weather in January 2004
(Prepared 10 March 2005)
“All three airlines complained about the failure of HAL to de-ice aircraft parking stands. BA told us that BAA had a policy at Heathrow of giving priority to maintaining clear runways and taxiways rather that stands. BA said that because of the limited number of stands at Heathrow it is critical that aircraft are able to depart in order to make space for arriving aircraft. BAA has now responded to this issue and has revised its severe weather plans to have a more even balance of priority between the treatment of runways, taxiways and ramp areas. The new plans were tested during the less severe weather over the weekend of 28/29 February.
De-icing of aircraft is currently undertaken at the departure stand. This is time consuming and increases the amount of time the stand is occupied. It also means that an aircraft has to return to the stand for de-icing if it has been held in a queue after leaving the stand. This occurred on 28 January. Many airports provide a de-icing facility away from the Terminal closer to the point of departure. BA said that it would be working with BAA to explore the possibility of providing a separate de-icing facility away from the Terminal. bmi mentioned that its contractor was unable to provide sufficient de-icing fluid. BA also cited the "more mundane logistics of snow and ice clearance" which should be attended to in contingency planning meetings with HAL. BA reported that since the disruption of 28/29 January BAA had made significant improvements to the storage and availability of materials and the manpower deployed on ramp and terminal clearance.”
They have done nothing about it since 2005.
The Chairman of BAA should consider sacking senior management at Heathrow, "pour encourager les autres"
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"pour encourager les autres"
Very appropriate given that a major shareholder in the holding company that owned BAA is some French Canadian pension fund !
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>> They have done nothing about it since 2005.
>> The Chairman of BAA should consider sacking senior management at Heathrow, "pour encourager les autres"
>>
Wasn't BAA owned by different people at the time? I think since then BAA has been taken over by the Spanish company - Ferovial.
"Who owns us
In June 2006 BAA was bought by a consortium led by Ferrovial, the Spanish construction company, and in August BAA officially delisted from the London Stock Exchange. Ferrovial is one of the world's leading infrastructure companies, with 104,000 employees and operations in 43 countries in a range of sectors including construction, airport, toll road, and car park management and maintenance, and municipal services.
The company leveraged construction, its original business, to finance expansion into other sectors that are more profitable and capable of generating growing cash flow in the long term. Since 2000, Ferrovial has invested approximately 10.2 billion euro in diversifying its business and moving into other countries.
Today Ferrovial has two clear business profiles: infrastructure operator and industrial company."
Last edited by: John H on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 11:04
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>> All these problems with the runway clearing, How do the Royal Airforce cope with the
>> runways at Waddington?
>>
They order the sqaddies to go in and do the job - on a military base they use common sense because they act like they are on a war footing. No pussyfooting about with elf&safety and Unions and overtime and EU directives.
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>> ...How many budget airlines use Heathrow ? I thought it was all the flagships...
>>
>> Plenty of cheap flights from Heathrow on the flag carriers, particularly long-haul with a change.
>>
>> Google 'flights to Australia' and you will be offered Singapore Airlines, MAS, Cathay, Emirates, a
>> couple I've never heard of, etc etc.
>>
Not what you'd call the normal suspects when discussing bargain bucket flights.
Don't forget a lot of people have switched to short hops to Europe (less tax) to then link up with long hauls due to the Governments new taxes, which directly affect the long hauls.
>> ...I suspect BAA's debt problems might have more to do with it:...
>>
>> How is it going to get out of debt?
>>
>> By charging more for its airport management service.
>>
>> The charges feed back via the airlines to travellers, who don't want to pay.
>>
Not for the kind of service they receive no, not when they can get a better service elsewhere. It's going to take massive hikes in airport management service charges to clear 10 billion.
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>> Hobby's right. What about St Pancras? Who, in their right mind, joins the end of
>> a 1km queue without a ticket (or with come to that)?
>> John
I was caught in this at the Paris end on Monday/Tuesday. Both there and on arrival at St Pancras the message was very clear; no new tickets being sold for travel before Xmas. Passengers with reservations were being boarded on the first available service, hence the queue. A Eurostar seats, IIRC, around 700 so they can actually shift people pretty quickly.
We were treated very well. We turned up Monday at 16:00 for 18:15, having being told at 08:00 we would not be carried earlier while they cleared Sunday's backlog. No prospect of being carried but Eurostar would pay our hotel etc costs. We rebooked into the same rooms at a nearby hotel that we'd stayed in for our break.
Joined a 500m queue at 05:30. Once it started to move it kept moving; we were on a train at 09:15 and in London by noon.
And for the record London Midland got us from Euston to home on time.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 22 Dec 10 at 07:15
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>> - Except nobody's laughing. How pathetic. What a national embarrassment. 4 inches of snow on
>> Saturday has a knock-on effect in to Wednesday. Who is worse: BA or BAA?
>>
Except that it was more than 12 inches that fell in a space of 3 hours. in other words, it was at a rate of 4 inches an hour.
Once the snow that had not been cleared by midnight on the second runaway compacted and froze in the -10C conditions, it became impossible to clear it unless you want to risk running ice breakers over the runaway to hammer the ice off.
To clear the snow on the day it fell, BAA needed to have three or four times as many snow ploughs with the attendant manpower, all on standby for a snow-event that has not hit Heathrow for 30 years. In the pre-elf&safety days, they could have drafted in volunteers to shift the stuff using any means at hand, but nowadays employers and employees alike won't/cant use initiative or common-sense to get things moving.
Last edited by: John H on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 11:01
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Was at Santa Pod earlier this year. Even Santa Pod managed a few jet engines on the back of a wagon to dry the track out when things went wrong, like a massive hairdryer. Why wouldn't that work at an airport?
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BAA is losing money - pensions, planning charges etc..
Won't invest? can't invest..
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6518c4e2-e195-11df-b71e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz18kA9f19V
Parent company Ferrovial takes on loads of debt to buy it and finds istelf stuffed due to recession so cuts all discretionary spending.
Snow? Sod the passengers.. The Met Office said mild winters.....due to Global Warming...
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“How do the Royal Airforce cope with the runways at Waddington?”
Many years ago (late 60s) as air cadets we were shown jet engines that were pushed along runways to clear snow at Waddington. Just like Santa Pod then ....
“Even Santa Pod managed a few jet engines on the back of a wagon”
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>> Even Santa Pod managed a few jet engines on the back of a wagon to dry the track out when things went wrong,
I've also seen the downdraft from helicopters used to help dry the track at Santa Pod.
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Well this how Helsinki copes, they're used a bit more snow than here of course:-
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12042213
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Well get this lot with no intention of working on the runways with a shovel and a brush and clear it..!!
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Nice link on Helsinki.. 4 times the equipment..
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>> Lack of kit, and lack of means to safely dispose of the cleared snow.
As DP says, finding somewhere to dump snow has been a problem. Apparently 30 tonnes under each plane. And appropriate equipment not available.
If we were like says Finland we would have to have more people and machinery to cope. But so far this has been pretty rare.
Talking about Health and Safety though, I've had two texts from H&S at work to warn about the conditions and to inform us to be safe etc. No doubt to protect the company and not due to concern for employees.
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Just shows how our 'just in time' and 'full capacity' culture can leave us stranded.
The link to Helsinki story was interesting.
Clear one runway while two are operational.
This cannot be done with Heathrow as it has both runways in full use.
Absolutely no provision for anything to go wrong (like the snow).
But that's the normal mentality of this country, use everything to it's full potential and screw that small chance where redundancy / backup capacity is needed.
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 11:50
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Just out of interest what are they using for de-icer? The amount of stuff they are spraying on I hope its not toxic!
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>> The amount of stuff they are spraying on I hope its not toxic!
Doesn't it turn the snow green though?
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12046975
58m passengers affected in Paris as well - so not just us - sadly the British news providers are guilty on an Anglocentric view of the world - they'll be saying "Paris, France" soon just so viewers understand that it's abroad !
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>> 58m passengers affected in Paris as well
Is there something going down in France that I should know about?
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It's all because of that edible underwear the French love !
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The impression I have is that outgoing flights from airports such as Paris and Frankfurt are delayed primarily because of lack of incoming aircraft from....Heathrow!! No incoming aircraft = no aircraft to leave on.
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Well of course the Independent makes the Daily Mail look a serious paper.
Perhaps we should read the attached links and shiver...
www.350resources.org.uk/2010/04/ ... d-winters/
and
tucsoncitizen.com/wryheat/2010/1 ... ng-effect/
Edit
It was the infamous Universilty of East Anglia team quoted in the Independent: the ones who redacted their emails...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 14:07
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>> Well of course the Independent makes the Daily Mail look a serious paper.
>>
Daily mean temperature anomalies around the world between 1st December and 20th December compared with the 30 year long term average between 1961 and 1990
i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/21/article-1340436-0C8D98CF000005DC-966_634x366.jpg
www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/anomalygraphs/
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Why do they hold Christmas at this time every year? What stupid idiot decided we would have a global holiday, in the middle of winter?
Or should that be, what stupid idiot put winter in the middle of a global holiday?
Sheer madness.
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But it's not in Australia ! (he said helpfully)
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So where's the consistency? If was the project Manager of the Global Christmas Project, Sir Alan would have fired me!
Anyway, Australia wasn't there when Jesus was born.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 16:03
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Now your just being awkward.
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Mind you the weather's been pretty odd in Israel as well - They have more claim than Surrey or Australia !
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>> Mind you the weather's been pretty odd in Israel as well - They have more
>> claim than Surrey or Australia !
>>
and in Florida
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34805079/ns/weather/
MIAMI — Floridians might have had enough of Mother Nature, but she hasn't had enough of Florida: Parts of the state woke up to record cold on Monday as farmers yet again checked fields for damage.
Miami on Monday morning set a record low of 36 degrees Fahrenheit, a degree colder than the previous record set for a Jan. 11 set in 1927. The city on Sunday had tied the Jan. 10 record.
Records for a Jan. 11 were also set Monday in Tallahassee (14 F), Brooksville (15 F), Gainesville (17 F), Tampa (25 F), Sarasota (28 F), St. Petersburg (33 F), Fort Myers (31 F) and West Palm Beach (33 F).
A freeze watch will continue through South Florida throughout the day.
Freezing overnight temperatures inflicted varying damage on the fruit in Florida's northern and central citrus growing regions, although the losses did not appear to be catastrophic.
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He's a retired solicitor!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin (p) on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 17:00
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>> Anyway, Australia wasn't there when Jesus was born.
Was it not around 2000 years ago? Quite a big land mass to form in recent years. ;-)
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Nope - Australia didnt appear until 1552
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It was there this morning !
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Year of our Lord 1552, not 15:52 Zulu!
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Just wait until the summer, he will call you Alpha. :-)
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The use of the name is more recent but I was referring to the land mass known as Australia. That's been around for longer. Humans lived in 'Australia' as early as 48,000 years ago.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 17:18
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Operation Barbarossa - The invasion of Russia, floundered in the winter.
Napoleon and the Grande Armée - ditto.
See? the French and Germans are just as bad as us,.
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>> The use of the name is more recent but I was referring to the land
>> mass known as Australia. That's been around for longer. Humans lived in 'Australia' as early
>> as 48,000 years ago.
Nooooooo! really? I never knew, i thought the first settlers brought the Abbos with them. I wondered where they got them from.
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"I wondered where they got them from."
Do you want one? I've got a mate in Manchester who can get you anything. Say no more.
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You can't tell from a distance.
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Heathrow Airport - what a joke - devonite
