This is a difficult question i have and it's not been nosey so reply if you like!!
When retirement comes for me in 23 years i'll be 62 how much cash am i likely to need to survive on?
The old lads i work with are on there last legs of working with 2x at 62 1x at 58 who's off at 60 other two will be gone next year i guess.
I asked them this question only 2 you can get a answer out of and it's bank the most you can, Well thats not a answer so at 62 today is 100k lump sum and & 16k a year enough for most folk?
I know it would help if the mortgage has been paid off some time and you can save some aswell, but many seem to cope on a lot less.
66 is retirement age but i can see that going to 70 before it's my time, there's 3x of us at this age or about and talk and ask these questions.
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The key is to try and future balance your expense and income. Timing to get it all to appear at the right moment is required.
I have paid off my credit cards, personal loans, mortage. My outgoings are low now, 300 a month for Council tax, Gas and leccy.
I am now no longer paying tax at a higher rate, or NI.
So in short, yes 16k a year with low outgoings is comfortable.
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I agree with Zero, get your outgoings to a minimum, do not retire owing anything if you can help it. The rest is disposable income to enjoy.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 16:19
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I have a guaranteed income of 18k plus a wedge of long term low risks investments which I don't think about. I also have some fun money for my toys - otherwise I live on about £100.00 a week and I am happy ! :-)
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Was told a few years ago that of you wanted 500 a week you'd needed 500k in your pot.
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Yes thats it no bills no silly mortgage at 55 plus, just want a comfy life not bothered about been rich honest im not just comfy.
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I saved some money in AVCs and got some tax relief on top and finished up with £11.000 cash. I gave this to a company I am not allowed to name, who fouled it up and got taken over, and I am getting £12 a week from it after basic tax. If I tell you that I am in line for some compensation you may work out who the original company was. What I am getting now is a seriously poor return on my capital! I have to say that a public sector pension, which is not related to Stock Market performance, is the way to go, if you have a choice.
Cash ISAs are safe and pay well at the moment. Somebody I know has taken out a cash one every year and has got about £40K earning 3% tax free which is better than poke in the eye with a dirty stick!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin (p) on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 17:07
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Zero's equation is correct at a fixed point in time.
But there is the spectre of inflation, how well linked your pension is, and if you are relying on the state pension for part of your income in the future.
With the prospect of 30 years retired, even a RPI linked pension will loose buying power as the years tick by, but many are being pushed into CPI linking which is something like 25% down in 20+ years compared to RPI (top of head remebered figures which might be wrong).
But a certain slippage is Ok as your spend will decrease when you become much older.
You also need a decent cash reserve for the infrequent large bills - boiler, car, etc.
The thing which may alter the figure you're comfortable with is the size your partner's contribution to the pot.
Few will talk accurate hard cash figures though - maybe it's not wanting to enter into the "is his bigger than mine?" scenario.
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Ok exact figures.
I took a 110k lump sum, and I am on 16k year gross, that's index linked.
I had a 40k investment mature at the same time, and I have another 15k due to arrive in Feb next year.
I paid off a 110k mortgage, bought a 5.5k car, paid off 5k of loans / credit cards. I have 30k in the bank earning squat at the moment.
So yes around 100k lump and 15k year pension, in todays terms, is comfortable.
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I'm not retired yet but have recently had a complete life change, i now work normal hours which after a lifetime (it seems like 3) of working up to 100 hours a week for years on end and 60 plus for the last 15 is bliss.
What we've done is work damned hard to clear that mortgage, we paid the normal mortgage off and then paid in around £500 a month overpayment to shift it, plus if we built up an extra couple of grand in the current account we'd pay that in too now and again...which resulted in paying it off last year...we don't owe anyone a bean, only use a credit card for internet purchases and pay that off in full automatically when the bill arrives.
This isn't being clever or boastful it's how my dad taught me without realising he was, luckily SWMBO is similarly averse to loans and the like, i wish i was clever with money we'd have done things differently anyway but then in a perfect world i'd have met SWM at age 20 not 36 and been in a completely different world.
So in my eyes i'm in a semi retirement position now, our combined income is now about a third of what it was when we were both in full time work, which seems a drastic cut but when you have no rent/mortgage and you are paying half the tax you were previously it's surprising how the figures add up, as a bonus it's nice not contributing quite so much for the idiots to squander or give to other countries for palaces and tanks.
Our bungalow is fairly large and unless the property market collapses entirely should when we want to downsize provide us with a good fund.
As the wise ancient ones above say, get yourself to the nice position of owing no one as soon as you can by overpaying anything that's owed, the joy of being able to tell the bullying company i worked for what to do with the job was the best day of my life...which i now have again after so many years of being a machine.
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Ive been pondering this one. Ive prob got 40 years left to work the way retirement ages are shifting, but on a low income like mine, its enough sometimes to pay the bills, let alone save for the future.
Ive had to base my retirement plans on downsizing to a much smaller house and my inheritance from my parents which should give my sister and I about £200k each, plus maybe another £30k from downsizing, at todays prices.
My wife will have a pension although how big we dont know because it depends how her career progresses.
As a couple, we manage on a combined income of about £15k a year right now, so if we had £20k a year in retirement, we would be comfortable.
Last edited by: stunorthants29 on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 18:26
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Aim to pay off your mortgage in your early 50's by a regular over payment and if the opportunity arises a lump sum now and then.
NOW
Live within your income, no unnecessary loans, pay of any credit cards on a monthly basis - paying the minimum just saps away the money at an alarming rate.
In the time between paying off the mortgage and your target retiral date salt away "the mortgage money" into savings.
On retiral the following is ideal
1) Own home outright
2) Cash and investments for a rainy day - a friend had to replace a car a 3 months back and a new central heating boiler last week.
3) Pensions from previous employers paying an index linked pension - if you are lucky enough to be govt employee
(Both husband and wife)
4) Have an understanding wife / husband that realises there are limits to what can be afforded.
5) have a skill.talent that can bring in ££s if you are short, PC Skills, tutoring skills, handyman skills etc
Costs fall rapidly when not working, less petrol, no more frittering cash during lunch / pub with the boys etc
Excluding major house costs, buying new car you can live comfortably on £1,500-£2,000 a month
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6) keep the wife working as long as you can.
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Also worth buying a newish house if downsizing which has latest insulation and top notch boiler to keep costs down as heating bills will go up if your at home more and feel teh cold more.
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Good point Stu, I have a modern bungalow, but trebling the loft insulation a couple of years ago made a noticeable difference to the bills even with a cold winter, and the house is more comfortable.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 19:13
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>> but many are being pushed into CPI linking which is something like...
Here's what I was trying to remember:
tinyurl.com/28deeh3
> switching from RPI to CPI, a move experts say wipes about 16pc off the value of benefits
> over 20 years.
Not quite as grim as my memory, but still not nice.
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An annuity is good as it will give you a guaranteed income, and can be index linked, at extra cost of course. My late mum lived well on £14K per year and saved lots. But if you run a car, that can be expensive. Then there's unexpected medical bills, if you do not want to go NHS. Frankly for some things the NHS is dreadful, as numerous people I know found out. One would be dead and another would be paraplegic had they not gone private. You can always downsize to a smaller house or one in a cheaper area to realise some capital. A lot of people do that. A house is a good investment in part because it is geared i.e. the actual house value is much more than the deposit.
You have to factor in the unexpected. Energy prices might well shoot up, leading to large heating and petrol bills. You can always top up by working a few days at somewhere like B&Q, but once you get doddery, that goes out the window. And when you are decrepit, you'll need to pay for a visiting nurse or carer, or even the cost of going in a home. Some homes are awful though.
Paying into a pension is quite good as you get the tax back, so it is more efficient than stand alone stock market funds, even ISAs. I bunged £20K into a pension a year ago just before the stock market rose sharply, so with the tax back and the increase it has helped perk up my otherwise rather meagre pension fund.
I'm not sure we can bet on a state pension. They'll raise the age to 100 before long.
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>>I'm not sure we can bet on a state pension.
Best left out of the equation altogether.
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>> >>I'm not sure we can bet on a state pension.
>>
>> Best left out of the equation altogether.
I am just counitng on mine to give the occupational pension a kind of one time index link boost in 2019.
If i get there.
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>> >>I'm not sure we can bet on a state pension.
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>> Best left out of the equation altogether.
>>
Sadly there is very little difference between state pension funding and Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. It is essentially unfunded and our pensions can only be paid by those contributing after we have retired.
I have a pal who with his wife lives on 16,000 a year net - he retired early at 53 and is now 61. He says they can live comfortably if they are sensible - his house is very well insulated and he has got his fuel bills down to £58 a month (gas and electric), about £100 less than mine - and my house is smaller than his! He does have material savings which he can use to replace his car etc.
The first step is probably to work out what you spend now, and where the money goes. Although we are not in my opinion extravagant, we probably spend double what he does - and we have no loans or mortgage. Running 2/3 cars doesn't help - you might be able to manage with one in retirement.
Annuity rates are a big worry. Although I have been in pension schemes for 37 years, and made AVCs, I know I could still have a penurious retirement. So, over the last couple of years I have stuffed about £80k gross into a SIPP. Depending when I retire, and what inflation protection/widow's pension I opt for, I might be lucky to see £20k lump sum back and £2,000 a year extra pension. No wonder they say you now need £500,000 to fund a pension. It's only the tax relief that makes pension contributions worthwhile now - if I was 25 I'd be looking at property as a retirement fund.
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Bigtee - You asked this a few months ago:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=1640&v=f
Last edited by: John H on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 20:26
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and he's got a really long wait to get anxious about it.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 20 Dec 10 at 21:14
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I'm nearly there ! I become an OAP in 9 days time, if the Lord spares me.
I've had a Civil Service pension of half pay for the last 5 years, SWMBO was 60 over 2 years ago and has been getting over £60 a week from the state. My pension from HMG will boost this up to about £210, plus i get another £50 Disabled Living Allowance. This gives me free tax for one car.
So, I reckon about £2500 a month. My mortgage was only for £2800 back in 1970 and I paid it off years ago. Like Zeddo, I have a lump sum, about £80K in a joint 3 yr bond, another £50K in a different BS and about £24K in a cheque only account with the Leeds...use this for injections of cash as and when. Earns a little interest All protected by the FSA...I don't like risks and I see no need to risk money on the altar of greed.
I earn a little from my part-time job, enough to pay a month's petrol/derv, perhaps.
I don't do it for the money, though. It gives me an interest, helps an old mate out and gets me from under 'er size 3s..
I do use 4 or 5 credit cards but they're cleared when the bill comes in, on-line transfers deal with them. My total Direct debits are few, Only little ones, TV licence, Evening paper, etc. i use my debit card mostly for day to day stuff. At one time I always had at least a ton on me in cash, and I felt uncomfortable without it I'm not bothered now, after SWMBO had robbed me of cash last week, I had under a quid left !
As you get older, some outgoings may lessen, we may not need 2 cars, for instance, let alone 3. I guess the Motorcycling will end as well.
The major expenditure on the house, a 1925 red brick, 4 bed semi, is all done now, New kitchen, newish bathroom, windows and doors. House totally plastered smooth inside so no big decorating bills in view. All just as SWMBO wants it.... so earache levels also much reduced !
Me ? I'd live in the garage/workshop if I had to....surrounded by my loved ones ! ( Car, bikes, tools, railway, etc )
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>> Well thats not a answer so at 62 today
>> is 100k lump sum and & 16k a year enough for most folk?
I think we need more details about where the money is coming from. Assuming you're talking about an occupational pension scheme, as I understand it HMRC only allow a maximum lump sum of 25% of your final salary. When I retired, my pension scheme would convert the value of any potential lump sum into a greater pension than which I could get interest from if I invested the lump sum. I decided that monthly income was more important than a lump sum so I didn't take a lump sum and so far I haven't regretted my decision.
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>>Zero's equation is correct at a fixed point in time.
Thats the key... and we just don't know what the position is going to be in 23 or 40 years time... Things might carry on as they are with small increases in costs... or we may have a blip where inflation goes wild and costs rocket...
Currently I'd agree that 16k seems reasonable but what it will need in 23 or 40 years time is anyone's guess...
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Here on the good old Railways the maximum is 40 years & several have got just that, there taking lump sums around the 50-110k++ region depending on there investment of course.
I wont get that unless i work till 66 then i'll get 40 years pension but not service as i bought into the pension.
Every year as we get a wage rise and the pension goes up i also pay more into the AVC.
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It sounds as if for occupational pension schemes HMRC no longer limits tax-free lump sums to a maximum of 25% of final salary.
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Think you can take the full lump sum of any AVCs though?
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25% and all that.
Yes, you can take up to 25% from a pension fund.
The scheme will encourage you to take it, because it costs them less in the long run.
But if you're fortunate enough to be in a final salary scheme, it's probably better to leave the cash in the scheme, provided that:
you don't need the cash
you live long enough
There is/was a tax argument for taking the cash if it reduced your total income below £22,900 after age 65/66 (that is personal pensions + state pension + other income):
www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/personal-allow.htm
"If your income is over £22,900 (the income limit for age-related allowances) but not more than £100,000, your age-related Personal Allowance is reduced by half of the amount - £1 for every £2 - you have over the £22,900 limit, until the basic rate allowance is reached. So if, for example, you're 66 and have income of £23,400 - £500 over the limit - your age-related Personal Allowance is reduced by £250 to £9,240."
But, I understand the under 65/66 personal allowances are expected to increase and match the 66+ figure in the coming years, which will remove that reason.
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you should take as much of your pension in cash as you need to pay off your debts.
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Also - the opinion is that you're better off taking it up front as it's not taxed and you will sort of lose out if you die early !
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Leaving more money than I had to in my pension pot would have produced a very poor return. I did far better with the cash myself.
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Zero-I don't agree that you should take a lump sum to pay off any debts. If you do, then you've effectively reduced your monthly income for the rest of your life. Looked at another way, you've extending those debts to the day you die - a very long loan. Better to structure repayment of those debts according to income. At least that way, when they're paid off , you've got your maximum monthly income.
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It is not rocket science to decide when you are going to, or are able to retire, and plan to be debt free by then.
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>> It is not rocket science to decide when you are going to, or are able
>> to retire, and plan to be debt free by then.
It can be,
Pensions are being deflated all over the place, redundancies are around, people require huge 200k+ mortgages,
Its very easy to say its not rocket science form the comfort of a guaranteed Matelot career and retirement date and cosy index linked pension. Very easy indeed.
In the harsh commercial world its not easy at all. Nor will it get any easier,
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>> Zero-I don't agree that you should take a lump sum to pay off any debts.
>> If you do, then you've effectively reduced your monthly income for the rest of your
>> life. Looked at another way, you've extending those debts to the day you die -
>> a very long loan. Better to structure repayment of those debts according to income. At
>> least that way, when they're paid off , you've got your maximum monthly income.
When your major debt is your mortgage, and it far exceeds what taking the lump sum will cost your pension, of course it makes sense.
Given also that the lump sum is tax free and your pension is not, why should you give it to the government. Also as the average age of male death is about 73, you never make it up.
Do the sums. I did.
Edit: assuming you retire at 65, you have to live to 87 to start making a profit if you didnt take the lump sum.
Much much older if you invested your lump sum
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 20:04
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I would be surprised if the majority of people haven't taken the maximum 25% tax free lump sum whether they have debts to pay off or not. It's the best way to make sure you get it, and as Zero says it's tax free.
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>>I would be surprised if the majority of people haven't taken the maximum 25% tax free lump sum
I raised that point with the pension people at my old firm, and their response was that very few people didn't take advantage of the tax free lump sum.
Who can blame them?
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 20:20
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I was debt free at navy retirement, took the maximum lump sum, put it into three totally independent long term low risk investments, worked for another ten years before retiring for real, and have no regrets.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 20:24
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Of course not. BUT
The likes of you and I and our generation are the last who can plan retirement with such certainty,.
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>> The likes of you and I and our generation are the last who can plan
>> retirement with such certainty,.
>>
I have little sympathy, We could not afford carpets when we bought our first house, and had a mortgage when interest rates were 15% and a relatively big deposit was required. OK houses are more expensive now but we did not have an easy time of it and earned every penny.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 20:46
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Nothing to do with sympathy, or how frugal and foresighted you were.
Its all to do with very poor future pension prospects (unlike you and I) and no continuity of employment.
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>> Nothing to do with sympathy, or how frugal and foresighted you were.
>>
>> Its all to do with very poor future pension prospects (unlike you and I) and
>> no continuity of employment.
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I don't entirely agree, How many people have a huge mortgage, car on credit, maxed out credit cards, and complain that times are tough. They are tough because they are living beyond their means, as is the country. OK they are getting ripped off for their pensions as well.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 21:01
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clearly you have not looked at what crap returns you get from a defined contributions scheme have you.
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No, I am happy with my lot. I just get the impression there are a lot of "I must have it now" lifestyles, which is fine if you can afford it, but a problem if you can't.
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I can see both sides of Zeds and Navy's arguments, and they are both right.
I do however agree with Navy in that there are whole swathes of people who think a 40 hour week is too much and that such should provide nay entitle them to not only middle class lifestyles but a retirement of comfort, whilst simultaneously p ing it up the wall and having more foreign holidays than prince Andrew, you can't do it all, well you can but you'll still be paying for your house when you're 70.
It's long been the case that if you want a reasonable life style you've got to either be prepared to work extremely hard preferably both of you if in a relationship or that one of you has to be the breadwinner and bring in the equivalent of 2 peoples wages whilst the partner raises any children and looks after the home....this of course goes against the great nulabour lie of equality etc but then look where any of their policies led us.
Merself i didn't stay on at school or use my good schooling correctly so i've had to do it the hard way (no complaints my decision no regrets), meaning i don't have any company pension plans...possibly a good thing some might say.
So we had to work very hard to get ready for retirement (almost) well before the time.
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We may decide to quit the UK in say 4-5 years depending on a few things. We hope to have saved (existing and new saving) over £100k by then. We are lucky we downsized last year and paid off the mortgage and have a nice 3 bed semi.
Some of the logic behind downsizing was simply because we didn't need the big 4 bedroomed Edwardian style house. But partly was down to wanting to save to get away if we want to and also because the time seemed right before the economy took a dive. I might even quit my current job at some point and do something different.
Now if I had the redundancy package of a colleague I'd be first to volunteer - he'd get about £150k!
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>> clearly you have not looked at what crap returns you get from a defined contributions
>> scheme have you.
As OldNavy suggests, most people do not invest enough in their pension, preferring to live well, and not think ahead. Those in the public sector often (always?) get good pension entitlements. The police can retire after 30 years (and I am not knocking them, when you look at how many are off sick), my late mother was on a very good NHS pension from decades as a nurse. Those who have it tough are the low wage private sector workers who do not live it up, cannot afford a house, and cannot put much away. I am sure the kitchen staff where I used to work were on carp salaries, but it was hard work. Us mugs in the private sector are paying for those fat public sector pension entitlements.
Regarding pension returns, most pension funds have abysmal performance. Presumably they rely on cosy deals with salesmen on fat commissions, or smooth talking salesmen who enroll companies en masse. Sometimes all your payments in the first year go as commission. The best pensions allow you to choose from a large range of funds. UK tracker funds are the best safe option, with low management charges, and good if not stellar performance. A Self Invested Pension Plan can be good for those with a large pot. Some of my pension funds from 15 years ago such as a Standard Life one have not grown, whereas my PEPs and ISAs have doubled or tripled in the same time frame. Someone somewhere must be making a fortune from company pensions, but in most cases it aint the poor punter.
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If you have debts, then it is usually best to pay them off as soon as you can, otherwise you end up paying more overall in the form of interest.
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I'm completely with Old Navy. Planning is the key. No-one should be retiring with a mortgage let alone a big one. Too many people have failed to plan, and succumbed to the 'buy now, pay later' syndrome, failing to live within their means.
Leif, who says 'it's usually best to pay them off'?? It's far too simplistic, and probably wrong, to suggest that you pay more interest on the debts when that has to be compared to the lack of monthly income if those debts will be repaid from a pension lump sum. The sums are simple: interest cost versus reduced monthly income for the rest of your life, minus tax. If you lived for 25 years, that's a long time to be in receipt of the extra monthly income.
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Leif, funny how in the good times when the private sector is doing very well, there's no moaning about public sector pensions. generally speaking, matching like for like abilities and qualifications, the private sector pays well in the good times whilst the public sector trades lower wages for additional security. Many of those public sector pensions cost the employees. In my occupation, 11% of my gross salary, and I get the pleasures of 24 hr shift work and dealing with the worst elements of society out there. Not everyone's capable of what I do but they certainly had the option to join. I can say with confidence that my friends have all enjoyed greater salaries in the private sector, but I don't complain about that, I'm happy with my choices. I now have to accept that I am effectively 'tied-in' to my occupational pension because there has been no investment of my superannuation payments. I'm not really free to take my contributions with me and seek alternative employment. I am now at the mercy of HM Government and whatever changes it may decide to make. I could start moaning at the private sector and the excesses of those who've earnt rather well and expected the good times to march ever onward, spending the equity in their homes, being lent money by the banks, without a thought for how they might pay it back.
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>> for the rest of your life, minus tax. If you lived for 25 years, that's
>> a long time to be in receipt of the extra monthly income.
You retire at 65, 25 years gets you to 90. Not likely now is it
You take 100k out of your pot, it cuts (roughly) 6k a year from your pension income. After tax thats 4.8k a year,
you need to live for 20.83 years to start recouping the money you took out of your pension pot. That is you need to live to 85 before you are gaining.
Now that's not good planning is it.
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The term life is too short is something I can think applies too often. I know of many who have died due to cancer or other problems at a young age (younger than 50). I also think of our accident back in 2006 that to be honest should have killed us. I am not religious but something helped us out that day.
So I'm also for living now for us (we cleared the mortgage) and may quit the rat race and enjoy a simple life.
If I retired early and could take a lump sum then it's a no brainer. Who knows how old we will live to. If the big C doesn't get one of us, something else might. And if not well lets enjoy our healthy years.
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>> You take 100k out of your pot, it cuts (roughly) 6k a year from your
>> pension income. After tax thats 4.8k a year,
You'll be very lucky to get that much. Take the lump sum every time. You can always save/invest it until you need it - you'll do better than an annuity if you are halfway prudent.
The only reason the government has forced people to take annuities and capped the lump sum is to prevent the feckless from blowing it and falling back on the state. Now that annuity rates are abysmal it's a no brainer unless you can't trust yourself enough not to blow it down the bookies.
In fact legislation is changing. In future, providing you have at least a minimum level of pension income, you'll be able to use income drawdown instead of an annuity; I know someone close to retirement who intends to do just that - he will in effect take most of his pot as a lump sum, invest in and draw on it as he needs it.
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>> You retire at 65, 25 years gets you to 90. Not likely now is it
>>
DEAD right.
Figures for 2010
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/oct/20/uk-life-expectancy-estimates
Region or nation - SOUTH EAST
Council name - Woking
Male life expectancy at birth - 79.3
Male life expectancy at age 65 - 18.2
Female life expectancy at birth - 84.0
Female life expectancy at age 65 - 21.4
Life expectancy calculators:
www.riskprediction.org.uk/index_lifeexp.php
www.uwic.ac.uk/shss/dom/newweb/Lifestyle/age_expectancy2.htm
Last edited by: John H on Tue 21 Dec 10 at 23:38
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No need to speculate about how long you will live,
Just fill in the details asked for here.
www.death-clock.org/?gclid=CLCDwvrK_qUCFQZO4QodD17Gog
On that cheerful note, Nitey nitey.
Ted
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Zero, well yes, if you've got to wait to 65 to retire and you're unhealthy then perhaps the better option. Index linking needs factoring in too - the person without the lump sum benefits more from any index linking.
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Yeah, dont let facts spoil your calculations.
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You always manage to seem so miserable! Happy Christmas!!
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Thank you, Its an act thats taken years to perfect. I'm glad its appreciated.
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Retirement & cash. - Zero
