"Almost one in four trainee teachers cannot do simple sums and a fifth have problems with spelling, grammar and punctuation, worrying figures revealed yesterday.
"Thousands repeatedly flunk basic numeracy and literacy tests and seek unlimited resits to pass.
"Critics fear the poor quality of the next generation of teachers will have a devastating impact on their pupils."
Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337602/Thousands-teachers-struggle-pass-simple-literacy-numeracy-tests.html#ixzz17qn7WDBs
If teachers are semi-literate, there can be little hope for their pupils.
But hey, that's just pedantry, lighten up, it doesn't matter.
Or does it?
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Yes it matters. Writing is still a primary method for conveying information. Neat handwriting is also essential so that what is written can actually be read.
I would expect a good standard of literacy, id expect a high standard.
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I can't write neatly, only time it bothers me is writing birthday cards. In fact thats about the only time i use it (near enough).
I can't spell, too much exposure to americanisms (it goes with the IT territory) and a dod of laziness on my part.
Doesn't really bother me though, i can type fast, wayyyy faster than anyone could write and i can be looking at something else while the writer has to stare at their page.
The electricity could go off one day i suppose but i'm sure i have a typewriter in my loft... :-)
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>> The electricity could go off one day i suppose but i'm sure i have a
>> typewriter in my loft... :-)
>>
Yes but unfortunately it won't have a spell-checker built in to it. And therein lies the problem; why bother teaching children to write and to do mental arithmetic, when there's a machine there to do it for you?
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My youngest daughter, now God help us over 30, had as a small child a real talent for mental arithmetic.
This talent was stifled at her primary school, one which had een all right five year earlier but had hit the skids after the retirement of the ferocious old head who knew what was what and didn't like parents hanging round the place.
The subversion of my daughter's maths instinct came not from the cheapo calculator but a total idiot of a maths teacher sold on modern methods. The poor child stopped being able to understand maths lessons because they weren't lessons in maths but some ghastly mathsoid invention by idiots designed to be comprehensible only to idiots.
I'm not joking here or exaggerating. Of course the daughter's all right but she and a whole generation of other nippers had their minds subverted by this crap. This country has a truly deplorable side.
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I havent had to write, with a pen, anything more than my name and address, or fill out computer read forms in block capitals, for three years or more.
Neat handwriting is not a general requirement these days.
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>> I havent had to write, with a pen, anything more than my name and address,
>> or fill out computer read forms in block capitals, for three years or more.
>>
>> Neat handwriting is not a general requirement these days.
>>
Not applied for a job lately then Z? I can forgive poor spelling and grammar, but untidy handwriting tells me that a candidate is untidy in other respects. I don't expect copper-plate nowadays, but a reasonable attempt to appear legible is a bonus for most job applicants.
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>> Not applied for a job lately then Z?
Yes. None of it involved handwriting. A CV is typed printed, application forms are complete on line.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 09:43
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>> Yes. None of it involved handwriting. A CV is typed printed, application forms are complete
>> on line.
>>
That might get you as far as the interview, and most of the CV can be done in a template mode.
I'd suggest that a growing number of employers, exasperated at the difficulty of choosing between a couple of hundred candidates with "cloned" CV's, are starting to utilise handwritten applications as a means of selection. In my days as a recruitment consultant, obviously before the days of computerised selection tests, I took the quality of an applicant's handwriting, standard of written English and basic numeracy into consideration when testing them; lorry drivers and warehousemen are not of course required to create vast tracts of illuminated manuscript but it does help if they can fill simple forms out properly, and also understand written instructions.
I have to say at this point that I've noticed that my own handwriting has declined in quality and legibility over the years, as I type more and more of my correspondence. It now takes an effort to write tidily when the occasion demands. All the more reason, in my opinion, why it should be taught at primary school level, to give it the best chance possible to be embedded in the childs psyche.
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Back in the 80s I was interviewed for a job and I was offered it subject to being interviewed by the MD.
I went to see him for tea and biscuits. After a bit of small talk he asked "have you given us a sample?". Me: "Er...well I know there's a medical, but I'm not expecting any problems!"
"No No", says he "a sample of your handwriting". Turned out he was into graphology and had issued instructions to the personnel department to test everybody. They never did get around to it.
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Good literacy and numeracy are vital for jobs which entail producing important documents ~ books, newspapers, magazines, legal documents, medical documents, scientific documents etc etc.
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Thoroughly excellent aims expressed at this www.apostrophe.org.uk/ site
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>>Thoroughly excellent aims expressed at..
We don't see many Car's, Van's and 4 X 4's for sale on this site.
Anyway, as it's a nice day, I'm off to buy a couple of Xmas tree's...
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Thank's for the reminder. I'd forgotten about the Xma's tree, I can get one on the way back from collecting the Sunday Time's.
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Last edited by: L'escargot on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 09:45
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Last edited by: L'escargot on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 10:12
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When I was at school...
I went to a grammer school. We had good teachers and bad. Mostly good, thank goodness. The poor ones couldn't control a classs, the good ones had no trouble. We had a very limited degree of experimentation. So, for instance, German classes were taught by only speaking German. This experiment was abandoned after one year and the school went back to teaching German the traditional way, the same way as French. But by then I'd lost the plot. The chemistry teacher was an idiot. A nice man, but an idiot. He was the school's only NUT member and I remember him sitting in classes, on strike, not teaching. I failed chemistry. Years later I read an explanantion of valency by Isaac Asimov. So that's what it's all about! Easy peasy. We had a brilliant Applied Maths teacher. The Pure Maths teacher - well. She was nice but wishy washy, then she left and someone else stood in, then a more permanent teacher was put in place and then the Applied Maths teacher took us on for Pure Maths too. It was only at this point that Pure Maths started to make any sense to me. I reckon I got 100% in my A level Applied Maths and a handful of marks for Pure, thus giving me whatever pass it was that I got.
My sister spent some time as a classroom assistant. The way they teach arithmetic made my head spin when she described it. No wonder kids can't do arithmetic. Idiots are always good at making simple things complicated.
My wife was taught with that "phonics" system which she says held her back, and she's a smarty pants with a First who could have gone to university at 17.
So, teaching is VERY important and there are too many who are dud teachers. We need better teachers and consistency of method and teachers.
Anyone using any high faluting nonsense language about education should be locked up. They are wilfully damaging the future of a generation of children. I seem to recall a lady radio presenter saying part of the reason she left a programme was she couldn't be sure she wouldn't punch the lights out on the next loopy "educationalist" who came on the show. Sorry, can't remember who it was but I'm on her side.
John
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>> I went to a grammer school.
>>
"grammer"?
It must have been where this teacher worked:
newslite.tv/2010/12/01/head-teacher-apologises-for-er.html
Last edited by: John H on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 13:32
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>> >> I went to a grammer school.
>> >>
>>
>> "grammer"?
>>
I think it's called 'wit' :-P
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Pedants don't do "wit" Humour and sarcasm are far too abstract for a pedant.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 13:41
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>> Pedants don't do "wit" Humour and sarcasm are far too abstract for a pedant.
>>
Sarcasm is the last refuge of the imaginatively bankrupt.
Sarcasm is the last refuge of a defeated wit.
Last edited by: John H on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 13:48
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See? far too radical for a pedant. Cant cope with anything unless is a quote from somewhere else.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 13:51
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oooooooo!
At least you came out with something of your own.
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That is as intelligent a contribution as your best ever one on this forum, displaying the full capacity of your brain, and in keeping with your name.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=4026&m=85442&v=e
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How original! But how typical of you.
An insult in a link.
No I don't expect you to realise the irony and subsequently the humour in that.
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Did you find that insulting?
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>> Pedants don't do "wit" Humour and sarcasm are far too abstract for a pedant.
>>
Pardon me. I am a confirmed pedant..and sarcasm is not a form of wit recognised by true pedants...
Last edited by: madf on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 13:54
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Does that mean confirmed pedants do recognise it? Are confirmed pedants and true pedants like two competing sects of Islam?
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Zero gets has zero tolerance when his poor grasp of English gets shown up.
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I know, its shocking how it winds you up isn't it.
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>> Zero gets has zero tolerance when his poor grasp of English gets shown up.
Now spot the mistake. Was it poor grasp of English, or an attempt at wit or sarcasm?
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Let your brain try to work it out.
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Nah, tell you what, I will leave it there so I can link to it the next time you try to correct someone or berate someone about their perceived poor grasp of English.
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>> I think it's called 'wit' :-P
>>
Looks like the work of a twit. A "wit" would have peppered their comments with more than that single attempt. Other contributors above the twit succeeded in that regard.
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No, it wasn't wit, it was a typo. (Hangs head in shame). My typing is pretty bad and it seems to be getting worse. I'm inclined to blame this netbook keyboard but there would be a certain amount of buck passing if I did that.
Still, it is true that I was taught very little grammar, ironically.
And if you'd seen the uncorrected version of this, you'd believe the typo excuse!
And it seems I'm not a pedant, from the definitions above. Just a bit picky :-)
John
Last edited by: Tooslow on Sun 12 Dec 10 at 14:01
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Blimey, I mis-spell one word and WW3 breaks out.
Could I point out to any pedants/pedents/pendants that they are splashing around in the shallow end in here compared to what the education "profession" gets up to.
He said, in a vain attempt to get the thread back on track.
John
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>> No, it wasn't wit, it was a typo. (Hangs head in shame).
>>
Thank you for owning up. No one (except Mr Knowun who is zero's alter altea ego) is perfect, and we all make mistakes. Skoda admitted just the other day that until then he had not realised "pedal" was not the same as "peddle".
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>> >> No, it wasn't wit, it was a typo. (Hangs head in shame).
>> >>
>>
>> Thank you for owning up. No one (except Mr Knowun who is zero's alter altea
>> ego) is perfect, and we all make mistakes.
Why should he have to own up or apologise? Just to please those who are small minded enough to point out every little mistake?
Are you going to apologise for your poor grammar?
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>> Are you going to apologise for your poor grammar?
>>
Yes.
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I was one of the children subjected to the ITA experiment in the 60's.
tinyurl.com/24nmmrn
IMHO this ruined my childhood, I have always found spelling a problem, but have worked hard to improve on it.
What I find totally stupid about ITA, is the fact we were taught to read and spell one way, then be basically told to forget it, and relearn the correct way.
This I feel, put us back at least 2-3 years at least in spelling correctly, and I do know some of my school friends who just can't be bothered to sit and read a book, could that be because they find it too hard to read proper English?
I'd love to see other ITA pupils comments.
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Spelling is best learned by reading books etc. If you see a word often enough you should eventually remember its spelling.
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>> Spelling is best learned by reading books etc. If you see a word often enough
>> you should eventually remember its spelling.
>>
Very true Mr Snail.
I feel my spelling has come on in leaps and bounds since I started surfing the net.
I do read books, but have to be in the right mood.
I also use a spell checker, but attempt to get the correct spelling by myself first.
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>>Spelling is best learned by reading books etc.
I have the impression that AC has read a few books in his time, judging by the way he puts finger to keypad. I have to include this link from HJ that I found one of his most amusing posts
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=82002
Being someone of limited education, I would still like to know what a smelly trousered alderman is...
:)
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Is Armel Lud? I do agree with much of that post, too many left wing councillors imposing their own political views on the unwashed masses by favouring buses, and other 'socialist' transport over cars, depite them often being nearly empty, and not tackling the real issues e.g. lack of housing meaning that all too often people have to live 50 miles or more from their place of work.
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"lack of housing meaning that all too often people have to live 50 miles or more from their place of work."
Oh yes! A large proportion of traffic on the M62 and M25 would be removed if people could move house without incurring huge costs like Stamp Duty. I would replace it with a reduced Capital Gains Tax for houses, with further discounts available for people moving only because of work commitments.
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" we were taught to read and spell one way, then be basically told to forget it, and relearn the correct way."
That's exactly what SWMBO says. Fortunately she was able to overcome it, some may not and have suffered as a consequence. Such cavalier experimentation with the future of a group of children should simply not happen, but it keeps on happening. Where methods are proven there should be rock solid evidence before abandoning them.
John
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Pleese sur! - Stuu
