It has been reported that some tourist steam trains are running fine as steam locos are not affected by snow.
In modern trains, what is the exact problem during snow? It it just related to electric traction or something else?
If electric locos are problem, then surely we can run all trains using diesel-electric locomotives? (assuming not enough steam locos are available ;)
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Some "tourist" steam trains cant even make it out of stations on a dry day if the rails are too shiny.
I'll post links to you tube to show you later.
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With Eurostar it was snow getting into the electrics. I think trains getting their power thru a third rail might be more affected than those that use an overhead wire. Diesels should be unaffacted I am guessing. I don't think it is a traction problem.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin (p) on Thu 2 Dec 10 at 09:18
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Also seems to depend on the design of the train. On Tuesday night I found that all the Southern Railway's Electrostars were finding it very hard going, but the Siemens sets used by SWT were bowling along perfectly happily in the same conditions.
Have never travelled from London to Arun Valley area via Havant before....
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Maybe depends if they have switched to winter wheels ............... :)
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How the colder European countries manage to run their train network? Or they shut down the service just like us?
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I heard a radio report this morning that no trains were moving in or out of Berlin and Sweden had similar rail problems.
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Got the appropriately named ICE train from Munich to Cologne yesterday. 45 minutes late out of Munich, 1 hour 45 minutes late into Cologne. They changed it from Frankfurt to Cologne from an express train to a regional, stopping at any station which could accommodate a 400m train.
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How long have you got?
The list is endless.
Freezing air systems, that means the brakes won't come off, the doors don't work, the horns freeze up, etc etc.
Ice on rail heads and snow on track major delays.
Electric traction frozen pantograph acrhing on contacts loss of line light which means no power to traction motors.
The list is endless lots of problems.
But the biggest problem yesterday were crews could not get to work due to roads and long delays were caused as this has a knock on effect.
As for the ones who don't know i work for the railway..
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There were some problems in Sweden, although it seems it was down to a bridge stuck up, and overhead line problems.
www.thelocal.se/30526/20101130/
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so winter and its effects have never happened before?
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Not for at least twelve months.
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>> so winter and its effects have never happened before?
It's winter and conditions in eastern and particularly southern England are very severe. Quite simply a question of how far we're prepared to invest money providing facilities that are only needed for a handful of days in the year and in lot of years not at all.
How the industry deals with those passengers who get stuck on trains, even of they're ignoring advice not to travel, is another question. Accounts in the press suggest the usual poor organisation and abysmal communication.
London Midland have so far performed near faultlesly.
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Someone described snow and freezing conditions perfectly.
In Scandinavia, every year they know when it will come, in what direction it comes from, how bad it will be and when it will dissapear.
In the Uk, we dont even know if we will get it year by year.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 2 Dec 10 at 12:33
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Snow in UK is a bit like sex in middle age. You don't know when you will get it, how many inches or how long it will last!
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>> Snow in UK is a bit like sex in middle age. You don't know when
>> you will get it, how many inches or how long it will last!
>>
No. Totally wrong comparison.. Sex leaves a warm glow. Snow leaves me cold.
Maybe Perky Penguins like sex in the snow?
:-)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 2 Dec 10 at 16:05
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-10c up here in good old Yorkshire and trains are freezing up big time lots of delays and cancellations and failures.
So if you must travel allow time to get there make a flask and take some dunkers.!!
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Bigtees list just about covered everything I could think of... "How we deal with things when they go wrong"? Difficult one, whatever we do there will be someone there to find fault, and as explained on that other thread its not as easy evacuating a train as doing the same for a bus or your car... I think sometimes that people think its exactly the same!
As an example we got stuck behind a failed electric earlier and so Control decided we would divert and miss out a couple of stations to try to get some time back... Another train was right behind us which would call at those stations but there was still one person who made his views known to myself and the rest of the carriage what he thought... I'm not sure what the majority who were trying to go further than him thought of him, though I did get some sympathetic noises when he'd gone... Sometimes its best just to let people rant, they just want someone to have a go at!
Re breakdowns, yes they do, but its worth reminding some people just how intensively used trains are... Daily mileage for our sets are around 1000 miles, going roughly ten days between examinations, they have covered several million miles in the ten years we have had them and are expected to go on for at least another 10 years... They are used both for high speed running and stop start work, in fact they were designed to be fast away from stations to enable more stops and quick averages...
Now I'd say by the Law of Averages they would be likely to break down at some point... The thing is not to try to compare a train with your car, its like chalk and cheese...
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It's frozen air systems today & doors stuck in pockets & couplers frozen have to boil kettle and watering cans on both couplers to defrost.
It's gone to pot up here at -5 now and trains failing everywhere. passengers yes some understand agree we can't get them off either the unions said no at the last meeting so no it is.
It's just after 10.30 had 1st pot of tea been here since 7am and will be here till 19.00 12hr shifts & it's blinking cold.!!
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They set fire to a building to defrost Chester station yesterday - tad extreme I thought ! :-)
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If you read some of the accounts of the lengths the old-timers went to to keep the railways running, it will soon be apparent that in today's safety-obsessed culture, it simply is not possible.
You have to bear in mind that in steam days there were far more people working on the railway for a start; since the majority did not own cars, and depended on the railway to get to work (and weren't paid if they didn't turn up) then it stands to reason that it was in their own interests to keep services going. Without wishing to be disrespectful of present-day workers, there was also a stronger culture of pride in the job than is common nowadays, but given the abuses which our friends on here have detailed it is no surprise that this has largely disappeared.
Because of the labour-intensive nature of the old system, with signal-boxes every few miles enabling better monitoring of a situation, and also the greater flexibility of locomotive-hauled working, whereby carriages and locomotives could be added and subtracted at need, local weather extremes could be dealt with in a far more effective manner than is possible today.
In a nutshell, that standard of service has become unaffordable.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Fri 3 Dec 10 at 20:13
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Used the Manchester Metrolink today, seemed to running flawlessy. Only problem was it took about five minutes to get up the ramp at GMEX as it was loosing traction.
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No they don't like it that much but it is the only circumstances in which it is avaliable. Getting and maintaining an interest in -60C takes some doing, trust me!
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>> You have to bear in mind that in steam days...
Didn't the fact the steam trains produced lots of steam from the boiler help keep lines open - i.e. would the heat be of some help too? Whereas an electric train does not create heat and therefore points likely to freeze up in the cold?
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Sort of on topic here's an old British Transport Film on the subject:-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl4pJwcE7JI
Discussing the same subject over on uk.railway one other change pointed out is that in the old days of slam door stock the trains would run until they pretty much self destructed (traction motor flashover etc.). Whilst this kept more trains running in snow the repair backlog of dead EMUs would take months to sort out. Nowadays the trains built in protection systems won't let things get that far..in theory anyway.
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>> >> You have to bear in mind that in steam days...
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>> Didn't the fact the steam trains produced lots of steam from the boiler help keep
>> lines open - i.e. would the heat be of some help too?
No not really. Gangs of workers would chip ice from points and signal cables
Lamp oil would be poured over points and set fire to. My father
Used to do extra shifts driving ghost trains overnight to keep
The track free of ice and snow
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Used to do extra shifts driving ghost trains overnight to keep
The track free of ice and snow
This happens now a diesel loco with a ice scraper pantograph goes out and clears the ice from the overheads.
Today many many failures the most on record for one day all due to the -8+ temperature and this is only the start it will get worse and our management know this so expect delays im affraid.
It's the air systems can't cope they freeze no different to your pipes in your house freeze and burst these do the same while parked outside all night in a stabling yard.
The easy answer is to leave the diesel units running with keys in all night on tick over, It was done years back and to a point still is but fuel bill is so high and these companies screwing what they can from it they won't allow a unit to idle for 5hrs,but this would stop these problems..
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Even that is not guaranteed to help, BT. If they are left standing other parts freeze up... I've not checked out that film, but if its the one where they had to dig that train out of the snow drift you'll note that they had to defrost all the wheel and connecting rod bearings before they could get it to move!
I don't know what other parts of the railway are like, but that desire to "keep things moving" is still very strong in most rail workers I know... Bear in mind that we are heading into work in the early hours just so we can get the rush hour trains moving, its a lot more hairy on the roads at 3 or 4am than it is an 8am!
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Snow and Trains - Zero
