| Non-motoring > Tuition Fees | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Fullchat | Replies: 39 |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 20:20
Tuition Fees - Fullchat
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Recently it was announced that tuition fees are to increase. I did not go on to higher education but have gained qualifications in further education - one night a week for a couple of years sort of thing. In a few years I have the potential prospect of 2 daughters bleeding me dry whilst they go to Uni. I do commute through a Uni area and would hazard a guess that the Uni year is about 8 months maybe less, I'm not sure. So what do the Lecturers/Professors do the remainder of the time? So in this 'best value' culture would it be practical to actually make everyone actually work a full year; notwithstanding say 6 weeks leave, so that courses could be completed say in 18 months thereby reducing student costs? Or is academia one of the last bastions of restrictive practices? |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 20:26
Tuition Fees - Zero
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| well if you cant afford it you should never have bred. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 20:38
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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Lecturers also get involved in research etc at proper universities. Lecturing and tutoring is part of what they do. The £9k per annum will be borrowed and the student will pay in back when working and earning a sufficient amount. Even if you had to cash to pay £9k/year I'd borrow it and invest the money in something that gives good returns. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 20:45
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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Research is mostly it, the department I went to designed the SACD system for Sony when they were not teaching. A lot of my work involves supporting HE staff and believe me they do work hard most of the year. You will always get a few duds who try and do as little work as possible but for most of them research is what makes them tick. I am not sure what they do in some of the HE colleges which have recently become universities but even the lower ones do a lot of research. The teaching staff also have to design the courses, unlike a college when they just teach an existing course at university everything is designed from scratch. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 20:59
Tuition Fees - teabelly
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The rest of the time is spent on research and keeping lecture material up to date. Just how long do you reckon it takes to mark a hundred or more essays, twice a semester and do exams, see students, more research and teach? Most lecturers in term time are doing 60 hour weeks. You have no idea what it is like in HE any more. Those days of working a few hours a week are long gone with targets culture, bullying management styles and having to take every useless working class student with half an A level to meet equality and diversity guidelines. Grant applications are also done throughout the year and can be quite time consuming along with lots of the other admin that is no longer handled by admin staff. There are some lazy beggars that don't deserve the money but there are some extremely talented and hard working individuals. You also fail to understand how learning works and how cramming does nothing for long term understanding of a subject. It might be ok for school education to churn out moronic parrots but it shouldn't be transferred to Higher Education which is about actual proper learning that stays with you for life and provides a solid framework for all later knowledge to be attached. HEFCE makes it very hard to over recruit, under recruit, fail the terminally stupid or generally actually exercise any academic independence. The 40% participation is a total utter disaster and has made degrees completely worthless. I'd tell your kids not to bother going to uni. Unless they are going to get a first from a decent uni - Oxbridge, Durham, Leicester then forget it. There's thousands of graduates with degrees that can't find work. Those of us that graduated a few years ago have been completely knackered by the system even though our degrees were worth something when we took them. Sadly employers assume they're the same dumbed down degrees being offered now. So many elements in some have been removed because the little darlings find it too difficult. Marking schemes made more generous as too many of them were failing. Not to mention the numbers that just buy their work online that can't be checked as the 'essay writing' read cheaters helpers that have these services will not have their work submitted to any of the plagiarism checking systems so there is no way of proving a student submitted their own work. Higher Education is nothing like it was. It's a service industry now. You pay your money and students expect a degree at the end of it and blame everyone else if they don't get the results they think they deserve. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:11
Tuition Fees - R.P.
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| I'm a Governor of a HE establishment - the amount of work that staff are expected to undertake is incredible. The SMT also work long hours trying to make the whole thing work.... |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:16
Tuition Fees - John H
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>> In a few years I have the potential prospect of 2 daughters bleeding me dry >> whilst they go to Uni. >> The proposed new fees in England (if passed by Parliament with the help of Scottish, Welsh and N-Irish MPs) will mean the cost is borne by the students and not the parents - unless the parents decide to chip in. The loans will be notionally the amount borrowed, but will be written off at the end of 30 years. There is a calculator somewhere on a .gov.uk web site, but I can't find it now. The new system will mean that most students will never pay back the full notional amount. Only the top few percentage in the high earning bracket will pay the full amount. A high proportion will pay back less than they do under the current system. You have the Liberals to thank for ensuring that the burden on the poorer students will be lessened in the new system. www.bis.gov.uk/studentfinance "Graduates will not make a contribution towards tuition costs until they are earning at least £21,000, up from the current £15,000. The repayment will be on 9% of income above £21,000, and all outstanding repayments will be written off after 30 years. This means all graduates will pay less per month than they do under the current system. In order to make the system financially sustainable, a real rate of interest will be charged on loan repayments, but with a progressive taper: * For graduates earning below £21,000, there will be no real rate of interest applied to their loan. * For graduates earning between £21,000 and around £41,000, a real rate of interest will start to be charged, reaching a maximum of RPI plus 3%. * Above £41,000, graduates will repay at the full rate of RPI plus 3%. Under our new more progressive repayment system, around a quarter of graduates, those with the lowest lifetime earnings, will pay less than under the current system. " >> So in this 'best value' culture would it be practical to actually make everyone actually >> work a full year; notwithstanding say 6 weeks leave, so that courses could be completed >> say in 18 months thereby reducing student costs? >> You will find that many Universities start offering courses where the current 90 weeks over three years are instead compressed in to 90 weeks over two years. After all, students of Medicine already do 45 or more weeks per year in their 3rd, 4th and 5th years. I know of one Medical School which has its facilities (e.g. IT and Library) open 24 hours a day, including weekends, for nearly the whole year, the exceptions being some Public statutory holidays. Incidentally, even at current fees typically of over £12000 a year for overseas students, there are ten times more foreign applicants than there are places allocated for the overseas intake. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11151567 "limits on medical schools, with a limit of 7.5% of students coming from overseas." |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:18
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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For any HE staff I don't think the OP meant this thread to be insulting. If a somebody has no connections to HE then wondering what they get upto in the summer months is a valid question :). I always intended to go back to university to do a masters but the way it has all changed I don't think that is likely now. I really wish I did back in 2005 when I even had the funding. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:41
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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Some staff will also be involved in student recruitment too which takes a lot of time. So showing around students and giving talks. Then doing interviews etc. The lecturing/teaching side of it at a proper University is only a small part. And not all courses are simply lectures either. They will probably be looking after research students doing MSs and PhDs too. I do however find tuition fees being up to £9000 a year as a terrible idea. If the country cannot afford to fund good quality degree courses for the number of students, is it not better to have fewer places and take the best? These changes will make it impossible to justify Oxbridge unless your parents are rich. And some other good Unis too. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:51
Tuition Fees - Fullchat
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Thank you for the informative responses. I've only had a snapshot of further education which unfortunately was all about money making than quality tuition. I did not wish to offend the profession - just testing the water. Makes a change for someone else to be getting it in the neck :-) And Zero I'd rather spend the money on my dream classic - a TR6 or a fully sorted Mk1 Escort but I know that my priorities lie with giving my children the best possible debt fee start in life. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 21:55
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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| It will be a gamble but anything is. I wish I was debt free, the amount I owe is almost enough to buy a brand new BMW but I don't regret it. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:02
Tuition Fees - Number_Cruncher
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>>So what do the Lecturers/Professors do the remainder of the time? I'm relatively new to being a lecturer in HE, teaching mechanical engineering. We teach in two semesters, and during that time, we don't have much time outside our allocated teaching hours - by the time you've done some preparation, some marking, dealt with project students, students taking a year out in industry, consulted with other staff on matters of moderation of marks, the setting of exam questions, you've got a reasonably full week. I'm expected to do consultancy work and research, and usually that happens outside the "normal" working hours. During these intense periods of teaching, you can't take leave, and it's very much frowned upon to have to ask others to cover for your absence. In the period outside our normal teaching semesters, we take in students from the Far East for whom we deliver a special series of short courses while our home students are on Summer vacation. This brings in money which along with our consuiltancy income we can use to provide teaching materials beyond each course's meagre budget**, and can provide funding for our own training needs. ** engineering is an expensive course to teach, needing laboratories with expensive equipment, machine shops and workshops and technicians to support them, and computer labs, therefore we have a difficult case to make to the university to allow these courses to continue - we are helped by the fact that as courses with a relatively clear path to employment opportunities, there is currently strong demand You might note I haven't posted much on here lately - there's a reason for that! On a practical note, I can only echo the shrewd advice given above. A good course at, ideally, a Russell Group University still has some value. I'm working at the more challeging end of the market, where some of our students make depleted uranium seem buoyant. For some of them, I'm sure they really have been mis-sold their course, and the best I can do is to offer them some help in developing their skills while they work with me. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:05
Tuition Fees - R.P.
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| Nice to see you back though NC. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:52
Tuition Fees - Number_Cruncher
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| Thanks PU |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:15
Tuition Fees - Fenlander
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A good topic to float at this time Fullchat... our eldest girl is in year 11 and thoughts are turning to HE and possible careers. She is already nervous about these choices hearing so much that's negative in the media regarding job prospects and finances for HE students. Only tonight she was asking us about the debt she'll have on leaving uni and likely salary scales for graduate jobs as opposed to going straight into employment with a good brain and hoping to get a debt free head start. |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:09
Tuition Fees - John H
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>> a fully sorted Mk1 Escort but I know that my priorities lie with giving my >> children the best possible debt fee start in life. >> To give them a good start, make sure they read these reports and learn from the experiences of people commenting on there: www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/01/graduate-unemployment-highest-for-17-years www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/class-of-2009-victims-of-17year-high-in-graduate-unemployment-2121830.html#disqus_thread www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/01/comp_sci_graduates_need_more_skills/ forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/11/01/comp_sci_graduates_need_more_skills/ |
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:24
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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From my personal experience I have many cousins similar age to me. The ones that don't have degrees are working for their dads business on not much more than the minimum wage. My two cousins with degrees have both got very good jobs. My sister is also on 30k and she got her job purely because the job was internal and you needed to have a degree to do the job. I have not done so well but a lot of it is down to my attitude as I lost my ambition in 2005 after so much went wrong in that year. I still don't regret a bit of it though, it was a wonderful experience and I it is a world I wouldn't know if I hadn't have gone to university. My nick name between my mates is the 'the prof'. Apart from one all my friends who didn't get degree have spent most the time inbetween different entry level retail jobs and have spent a lot of time unemployed. My uni mates have all been employed since 2006 and rarely without work even if the job they are doing isn't actually that good. I don't really know when it went wrong for me, in around 2004 I was earning £250 a weekend coding CSS. I guess I just haven't bothered to keep my development skills up to date. I am currently working on an Android project and I haven't done any programming for five years but because I have the background it is not that difficult to get back into. If hadn't have gone to university I would not have had a clue where to even start. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 22:24
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New Fri 5 Nov 10 22:49
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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Best of luck with the project Ian. I learned to programme a ZX81 3 months before actually getting it! First program written on boxing day (the day after getting it). Cool. I wonder how I did some of the coding I did on computers back in the 80s. I developed a WYSIWYG application for teaching part of a chemistry course (with pop up graphics etc.) and all mouse driven in 1986! Part fun and part my computer course. I might dabble with some things on Android soon. Not that you need an Android phone to develop applications. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 07:54
Tuition Fees - Focusless
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>> And Zero I'd rather spend the money on my dream classic I suspect Z was referring to this, in case you missed it (last line), which stirred things up a bit: www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3475&m=70980&v=e |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 08:46
Tuition Fees - Zero
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He was and this one www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=3379&m=68210 |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 12:43
Tuition Fees - Zero
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>> And Zero I'd rather spend the money on my dream classic - a TR6 or >> a fully sorted Mk1 Escort but I know that my priorities lie with giving my >> children the best possible debt fee start in life. To be fair, my son would have preferred I spent the money on the Mk1 Escort. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 00:13
Tuition Fees - henry k
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There is a letter in the Daily Telegraph 05 Nov. a few bits from it It is an extreme case but I hope you do not need a maxillofacial sugeon in the future. These surgeons have to do TWO full medical courses. 90K plus all living costs £30K. Take home pay £29K then loan payment of £8640. A mortgage with £120K debt after 19 years of training? Is anyone out listening to what is going to happen re med students? IMO in the future only offspring of rich parents will do medicine. I supported my daughter through med school for six years. This included a "recommend you take" intercalated degree but of course no goverment funding for a second degree so added support required. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 00:18
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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A friend is doing a doctorate next year and as I understand it is all funded by the university providing she passes the entrance exams and interviews. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 00:48
Tuition Fees - henry k
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My daughter has just started a DPhil with the fees paid for by a foundation. A considerable drop in salary and all other costs come out of that. 14 years of training and at least two more when she returns to a full main stream hospital role. She is fortunate that she is working as part of her research. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 01:00
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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>> Take home pay £29K Yes that sort of take home pay for a surgeon would be a problem. So for some add a 0 and divide by two easily. Some GP's exploiting the rules get over £200k pa. Now the mortgage is gone maybe this could get me skills that would be useful wherever I go in Europe to live? |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 01:02
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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>> ... in the future only offspring of rich parents will do medicine. I wish I did it years ago. £100k+ pa sounds nice to me. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 01:08
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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| Yep as a GP even if it cost 200k to qualify it would only take a few years to pay off all that debt! I suppose there is always the risk of failing though. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 01:14
Tuition Fees - rtj70
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Before a GP qualifies they earn money working too But not everyone is cut out to do medicine. Academically a lot of us could get the qualifications needed but the actual job. Not for me when 18/19. Cutting up dead bodies etc. which is just part of why I wouldn't do it back then. And it's a very responsible job. NB GPs with their own practice are the ones earning lots. And about to earn lots more.... ... so all I need is apply to med school. Elephants will be on the top floor I assume? |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 01:27
Tuition Fees - RattleandSmoke
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I detect that you have regrets about your career path but you've had a good life out of IT and going to university. I haven't really but most of it is my fault, I just have no ambition although I do work hard (I am still working on PCs at this time of night) I just dont' have any motivation in money. I am bitter about a lot of things about my education but mainly what happened before university but stuff which still holds me back even now. I was miss sold my course in some ways but the big thing wasn't the course but the fact they didn't tell us just how much work experience we would need. After about 30 interviews my heart wasn't in it anymore. I am happy with what I do I just wish I had the courage to charge more. I have always fancied teaching in FE but even that is too difficult to get into. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 02:56
Tuition Fees - Iffy
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...Or is academia one of the last bastions of restrictive practices?... A friend of mine left the private sector to become a lecturer about five years ago. He was quite a hard worker, and could not believe what an easy life he had at university. Applying his private sector discipline, he was able to hold down his laughable lecturing non-job, as well as write books, run a small business and pursue an interest in local politics. He told me he never saw some 'colleagues' from one week to the next. What do these clowns do, apart from draw a decent salary at public expense? My mate couldn't tell you. I don't doubt some lecturers put a decent shift in, but there's an awful lot more who are just plain idle. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 07:47
Tuition Fees - henry k
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Look behind the headlines! My daughter is a, dedicated to the NHS, hospital doctor in training. In her 30s ( her choice to omit a gap year) and has at least another two years of training , now delayed by three years. that will mean she is nearly 40 before fully qualified. I make that continuous often very intensive training for over 20 years including horrible shift patterns around the clock. European working hours directive ? A bit of paper !!! She can very very rarely walk off the job at the end of the shift and is very often hours late leaving. The insurance cost are very large ( thanks to the wonderful public who must blame and and get ££££s compensation for anything they think is wrong" She may well be in a part of the NHS that is not typical but we all need dedicated doctors. Fancy a go at it ? |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 09:57
Tuition Fees - Bigtee
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I regret not going to university NOT for the education i just missed out on all that sex and beer induced parties!! Any hope for me i doubt it. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 10:26
Tuition Fees - Fenlander
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I have a real dilemma advising my girls and last night Mrs F grumbled I was using the chat on this site to influence our 15yr old to start thinking of not going to uni. I didn't mean to be obviously biased but... Had the potential for uni but became fed up with education by 17 and only just scraped some A-levels. Immediately found a good career job at 18 though and by the time my uni friends had finished their courses and found jobs I'd well established earnings, decent car and on my second house (restoring them as an aside to my job). I reckon it took until we were all about 40 for the graduates to catch up (with one or two exceptions). However I threw in a curved ball at that time by deciding I'd had enough of being employed and have done my own thing since then. Mrs F's career path is even more extreme in that she left school at 17 to do bar/waitress work and have a laugh. Then somewhat by accident in her mid 20s she fell into a career path and achieved decent management positions. Today by and large she is managing graduates rather than the other way round. These two unconventional life paths are very poor examples for our kids as it all could have gone so badly wrong. I see on the links John H gave above it was stated the average lifetime earnings of a graduate will be £100K more than the non-uni guy. If you'd ended up with £30K of student debt and missed out on the £45K the other guy might have earned while you were at uni the lifetime figures then look to give little advantage and greater risk to the uni route?? |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 10:28
Tuition Fees - R.P.
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| Bigtee you could become an MP to make up for it - judging by today's papers anyway ! |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 10:34
Tuition Fees - Iffy
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...you could become an MP to make up for it - judging by today's papers anyway... I've seen the Labour lot in defeat close-up at local level. They do not like it, one bit. In the north, there are some good old-fashioned bruisers in the party who think nothing of resorting to threats and intimidation to get their way. So the stories about both MPs ring true to me. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 11:47
Tuition Fees - Bigtee
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My lad is two i started saving either for his education should he take that path or a house the second week he was born so in 16 years if uni is what he wants the cash will be there. Far too many have gone to uni to become Solicitors how many more white collar workes does this country need? Engineereing & building get your hands dirty do some graft!! Friends are solicitors and finding it hard getting work some do agency which is good pay but working all over the country. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 13:37
Tuition Fees - Falkirk Bairn
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Choose the right course (with prospects of making a good income over time) and it is worth the gamble - that is assuming the boy/girl is capable of doing well @ Uni. My wife and I both benefited from our Uni education 45 yrs ago - my income was approx 2 - 3 x average earnings over many years. My 3 kids,( now in the early to mid 30's) followed suit and earn 2 - 4 x average earnings with prospects of that gaining to 3 - 5 x average earnings over the next few of years as there experience gains them a step on the ladder. Their Uni educated wives earn ~£30K but this is civil service and their salaries are never going to rise as quickly. Without education goodness knows what they would be earning - many of their pals at school are in the £20-£35K bracket |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 13:53
Tuition Fees - Iffy
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...Choose the right course (with prospects of making a good income over time)... I hope some of the nation's youth measure their life happiness in terms other than money. The country needs people to undertake traditionally low-paid work far more than it needs more lawyers and stockbrokers. The voluntary sector, paid 'vocations' such as the priesthood, and manual labour of all types spring to mind. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 15:40
Tuition Fees - Falkirk Bairn
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> >> The country needs people to undertake traditionally low-paid work far more than it needs more lawyers and stockbrokers. >> >> The voluntary sector, paid 'vocations' such as the priesthood, and manual labour of all types spring to mind. The point I was making is that there are 2 types 1) Those worried about fees and debts 2) Those unworried ( either they have money or are not interested one way or another as they will work through issues over time) If you are Type 1 & worried choose a course / qualifation that allows you sufficient income potential to pay it off. |
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New Sat 6 Nov 10 14:06
Tuition Fees - henry k
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>>Choose the right course (with prospects of making a good income over time) and it is worth the gamble - That is frequently stated but it depends a lot on the Uni. Some say at a top Uni the most important thing you leave with is a black book full of contacts. My son changed what his subject would be just before the interview at a top uni so went with nowt in the way of any extra study of the subject. He was accepted with just AAB He was never ever going follow the subject in the big world but he has done very well since. |
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