I rarely do, I have to admit - no through any strong belief, in fact I like to think I'm very aware of past and current sacrifices being made on our behalf and contribute accordingly.
Jon Snow is one of the Poppy refusnik - His grandfather was Sir Thomas D’Oyly Snow was a famous and distinguished WW1 General......
What's the consensus here ?
Last edited by: Pugugly on Thu 4 Nov 10 at 20:14
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I would wear one if there was one that purely marked the world wars and wasn't used in respect of current wars.
Or is the poppy still seen as purely world wars?
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When I was suit wearing at work, I did - suitable button hole available. Now? probably not.
Like you I know the cost. I may pop over to the airforce memorial at Runnymede, and drop a couple of buttons in the box.
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I bought the iphone poppy app this year as I keep losing the paper ones
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I will wear one. Quite pleased that my eldest son is part of the remeberance day parade in our town (through his cub pack)
I'm not that old (34) but feel quite strongly that my children know and understand what people went through for their ultimate benefit.
Last edited by: mikeyb on Thu 4 Nov 10 at 20:29
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The appeal is one of the few charities to which I always contribute.
I regard poppy wearing or not as unimportant.
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I generally do, but as Z says it helps to have somewhere convenient to stick it. Last night's The Apprentice: You're Fired is worth iplaying for a picturesque illustration of how some outfits just weren't designed for poppies.
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Many young men lived and died in atrocious conditions, and still do. Some for what they believed in at the time and some because they were conscripted whether they believed or not. Either way what they saw and and conditions they encountered we can only imagine in the security of our centrally heated homes. For them war was a life changing and significant emotional life changing experience.
War has moulded they way we and other nations enjoy certain freedoms today. I am sure they would turn in their graves if they saw the way in which the society they fought for today has developed. They will be giving prisoners the right to vote next.
For me wearing a poppy is not about the celebration of war but the sacrifices members of the armed services and their families have and still make, and my own personal recognition of those sacrifices, misery and suffering they endured on my behalf.
I had the honour of parading in Whitehall four years ago. I was able to wear the medals awarded to my Father who had died that year. For me it was a very moving occasion.
Wear your poppy with pride.
'At the going down of the sun and in the morning we shall remember them.'
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Well put, FC. It's not about war itself, but the effect war has on the people caught up in it.
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My truck wears one all year round; I buy at least one every year for myself.
I'm ex-Army, as some of you know, and also a member of the British Legion Riders Branch.
Have also attended the last two years of "Ride to the Wall", several of my former colleagues are remembered there;
www.rttw.org/
Read somewhere that Celtic Football Club have banned the selling of poppies at their ground "as it offends some of their fans", and having checked out some of the comments on their official forum all I can say is that some of their fans offend me.
That sort of thing makes me wonder if those brave men did die in vain.
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No they didn't.
If they had we wouldn't be here discussing it.
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I know that Z, but I suspect you can see where I'm coming from.
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I can, but to concentrate and speculate on the abuses and disrespect of the minority, belittles the sacrifice for, and the gratitude of, the majority.
My son has visited the Menem Gate and seen the name of his great great grandfather, and we have his grandfathers (my father in laws) medals on a plaque on the wall. They include the Africa Star (8) and the Italy star.
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>> to concentrate and speculate on the abuses and disrespect of the minority,
>> belittles the sacrifice for, and the gratitude of, the majority.
Having been a serviceman myself, I'm all too aware of the lack of respect shown by a lot of people these days, thank you.
But I would remind you of the words attributed to Edmund Burke;
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Which is why I highlighted the contemptible behaviour above.
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]
>> Having been a serviceman myself, I'm all too aware of the lack of respect shown
>> by a lot of people these days, thank you.
Blame the current round of politicians, not the people.
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>>Read somewhere that Celtic Football Club have banned the selling of poppies at their ground "as it offends some of their fans"
Contemptible. The problem is with those who are offended and those eager to give in to them.
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>>Read somewhere that Celtic Football Club have banned the selling of poppies at their ground "as it offends some of their fans", and having checked out some of the comments on their official forum all I can say is that some of their fans offend me.
from the Celtic website:
celtic football club statement
Newsroom Staff
STORIES suggesting Celtic have banned the selling of poppies at the stadium are absolute nonsense and supporters wishing to purchase poppies can do so at our Superstore.
Celtic Football Club has a great relationship with Poppy Scotland. We have made financial donations to the charity and we have been delighted to support the charity's activities in previous years, this year and beyond.
Fraser Bedwell of Poppy Scotland commented: “Celtic Football Club have been, and continue to be great supporters of Poppyscotland and the Scottish Poppy Appeal.
“The Club will again this year participate in an SPL-wide initiative when all 12 clubs will wear a poppy on their playing shirts for the matches on remembrance weekend (13th/14th November).
In addition, Celtic have kindly offered to donate these shirts to Poppyscotland and we plan to auction them after the match to raise funds for the appeal.”
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I'm glad the club has put the record straight, and I'm happy to be corrected.
I still stand by my comments regarding the threads on the supporters website , although I must point out that I was mistaken in assuming that it was the club's official website.
Read it here for yourselves;
tinyurl.com/2wrcfo5
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 7 Nov 10 at 23:18
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It is but a very very small minority, a hateful, stupid, mouthy minority of the Hundreds of thousands of Celtic supporters who spouted off in that forum. I am sure plenty of Scots are not amused they think it is an Irish club.
However, there is a distasteful secular division that keeps the Blues and Hoops hatred alive. Its a pity it is the two most powerful clubs in Scotland, and such hatred is one of the reasons that Scottish football remains a long way behind the major European leagues and teams. In short, no-one else wants any part of it.
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Well summed up, Z. It is also a pity that the decent majority still condone this division.
I have Irish friends who are not amused by it either.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Mon 8 Nov 10 at 06:34
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I also read that clip by Celtic and was struck by what was missing... they said that supporters could buy them from the Superstore but there was no mention of individual sellers dotted round the ground on match days... I would like it qualified as to whether they have banned sellers in the ground and just restricted sales to the superstore, which is what seems to be said... That, in my view, is just as bad as an outright ban as it is giving in to the bigoted minority...
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>> sure they would turn in their graves if they saw the way in which the
>> society they fought for today has developed. They will be giving prisoners the right to
>> vote next.
Excellent post FC, well said.
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Every year, because I am aware of the sacrifices made, and perhaps the annual appearance will remind those who might otherwise overlook it.
The war in which Britain was bombed and within days of being invaded and overrun is much more distant fr younger people and the tradition is one way of keeping the lessons alive. History forgotten is doomed to be repeated.
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I opposed the Iraq invasion, but I think we owe it to the service personal who are wounded, or die, to honour their bravery. And of course there are many who gave their lives, or health, in past wars. I think we owe them our suppolrt and respect.
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Do we honour all the brickies, roofers, sparkies, truck drivers etc who also die tragically whilst doing the jobs they have been trained to do?
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I am classed as a service "Veteran". I don't need to justify wearing a poppy to anyone.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 4 Nov 10 at 22:16
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There's no need to justify it to me - I feel a tad guilty that I never do actually wear one these days, my wife has an enamel one....
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Non-suit-wearer now I suppose? That white BMW would look great with a poppy on.
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>> my wife has an enamel one....
>>
Both my wife and I have enamel poppies, which we wear on appropriate occasions. We still make donations while not needing a new poppy each year.
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>> Do we honour all the brickies, roofers, sparkies, truck drivers etc who also die tragically
>> whilst doing the jobs they have been trained to do?
Yes. The guys who died for your freedom were brickies, roofers, truckdrivers.
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OK I will rephrase that, I have full admiration, respect and owe what is my life to those who fought during the World Wars. Many were conscripted or very much untrained.
Currently we are fighting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the majority of these personnel have joined the service out of their own free choice, knowing what it may involve, knowing the risks that come with the job.
I am maybe too removed from service personnel, I don't know a single person be it friend or family who is in any of the services. But those who do join up nowadays know the risks involved.
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>>But those who do join up nowadays know the risks involved.
I may be labouring this a bit, but wouldn't that make it at least as deserving of our approbation?
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Manatee, I hear what you are saying and sort of agree. As I say it may be that I don't know any personnel, I am not old enough to remember WW2, maybe even being Scottish, without being cheeky or anything, makes me less British and Union Jack waving, if you see what I mean?
And I am not saying that in an anti English way, I am just trying to explain how I feel.
I am very much anti-war, especially the current ones. So when I hear of personnel being killed, who have maybe spent the last 10/15 years being trained for this sort of action I do feel sympathy, of course I do. Even more when it is a youngster , fresh out the wrapper. What a waste of life.
I think the difference may be that I just cannot get my head round the parents who get interviewed on TV about their sons who have died in Afghanistan and they say how proud they are of their sons. I just cannot get my head round a parent saying that they are proud that their son was killed fighting for his country in a war far away from us which has got very little to do with us.
I am not trying to be controversial, just trying to put my viewpoint across.
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>> I am not trying to be controversial, just trying to put my viewpoint across.
>>
Your viewpoint may change if your loved ones are damaged by Afganistan or Pakistan based, funded, or trained terrorists.
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The reasons for having been in Iraq and for being in Afghanistan are very different and it's unfair to bundle them together. Bobby many Scots troops have been in both theaters and remember that there have been other conflicts since WW2 that have claimed the lives or health of people from this country.
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Pug I am not making this a "Scottish " thing in any shape or form. I know there have been Scottish people involved in these wars.
If someone has an accident up a ladder in a factory, H&S descend and all sorts of rules and regulations happen as a result.
We go to war and countless people are losing their lives as a result. And somewhere there are people in authority that are effectively saying that losing these lives is a sacrifice worth doing.
And then there are individuals who put themselves forward for this. And parents who encourage their kids to do it.
Sorry, I just don't get it.
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"And parents who encourage their kids to do it."
I don't think many parents encourage their kids to join up. I think its more about accepting and supporting their decision.
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>> I am not trying to be controversial, just trying to put my viewpoint across.
>>
Your viewpoint may change if your loved ones are damaged by Afganistan or Pakistan based, funded, or trained terrorists.
It possibly will but at this stage I haven't been affected in that way.
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a war far away from us which has got very little to
>> do with us.
>>
"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!”
Neville Chamberlain, 1937. We all know what happened after that.
For gas masks and trenches read terrorist alerts, bombs on buses, etc.........
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An analogy I've often thought of HM.
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Bobby, you are a brave man to say such comments, if expressed in most forums rather than this more gentile and thoughtful one, it would trigger a wave of anger. We now, it seems, have two charities for Servicemen, Poppy Day and Help for Heroes... my money will always got the the first, as my parents and their friends had no choice back in the late 30s.
I agree with you.
Last edited by: hobby on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 09:01
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>> Bobby, you are a brave man to say such comments, if expressed in most forums
>> rather than this more gentile
Genteel? I doubt you meant any reference to the proportion of non-Jewish contributors?
I guess Zero will still say spelling doesn't matter!
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 13:00
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:-)
And Chrome's spell checker never spotted I'd used the wrong spelling.... You are quite right M!
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>> Do we honour all the brickies, roofers, sparkies, truck drivers etc who also die tragically
>> whilst doing the jobs they have been trained to do?
>>
I think you're a decent cove Bobby so I'll interpret that as you being the devil's advocate.
I'll honour anybody I think deserves it, but the rest of us don't generally have to do our jobs while putting ourselves in the way of people who are trying to kill us.
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Wear one if your reasons for wearing one are sincere.
My father served on both the Atlantic & Russian convoys so I do.
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>> Wear one if your reasons for wearing one are sincere.
>> My father served on both the Atlantic & Russian convoys so I do.
>>
Two of my uncles were killed fighting in France. A third died in a German prisoner of war camp.
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>History forgotten is doomed to be repeated.
My faith in the British public was restored this week when I saw a young dad crouched down beside the poppy trays outside my local supermarket explaining to his 5 or 6yo son why they were collecting.
He then gave him some money to put in the collection box.
The delight on the little boy's face when he was presented with his poppy brightened my day.
Kevin...
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i think every true brit should buy a poppy if they can to show solidarity to a job they probably wouldnt want
in a far off country they wouldnt want to be in
i know a young lad whio is in afghanistan and he has his eyes wide open of why he joined the army and he also has the usual army approach to humour
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I prefer not to 'wear my heart on my sleeve' and donate to charities of my choosing such that tax et al benefits them.
I don't wear a poppy.
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"My faith in the British public was restored this week when I saw a young dad crouched down beside the poppy trays outside my local supermarket explaining to his 5 or 6yo son why they were collecting.
He then gave him some money to put in the collection box.
The delight on the little boy's face when he was presented with his poppy brightened my day."
Meanwhile back in Hull, story on the local news tonight (can't find a link). Very young girl given a 20p by her Dad - he had no more loose change, put the money in the collection tin and the seller refused her a poppy as she thought it was not enough. Didn't give her a refund either.
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>> Meanwhile back in Hull, story on the local news tonight (can't find a link). Very
>> young girl given a 20p by her Dad - he had no more loose change,
>> put the money in the collection tin and the seller refused her a poppy as
>> she thought it was not enough. Didn't give her a refund either.
>>
>>
PR disaster, I hope the collector is suitably ashamed of their behaviour to a youngster who will remember their treatment for a very long time.
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That collector needs a boot up the jacksie. In my view her action was against the spirit of the fund's principles.
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As a slight aside how many civilians were killed in the world wars compared to service personnel? Servicemen went off to fight but many that didn't got bombed to bits where they were. Do we also remember all the Jewish people that were gassed or tortured or fled and lost everything? Concentrating on a poppy for servicemen seems to miss out all the rest of the people that were affected.
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I generally buy one each year, or at the very least chuck some money in the rattle tin. Can't recall the last time I wore a poppy though.
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>>Concentrating on a poppy for servicemen seems to miss out all the rest of the people that were affected.
On the contrary, in my opinion - if younger people who didn't grow up in the shadow of the WW2 look into the stories behind those cenotaph parades, they'll find all the other history that needs to be remembered as well.
Every little helps.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 07:28
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Absolutely agree with Fullchat above. And I would add that wearing a poppy is a sign of support for the Royal British Legion, whose work for the veterans of all wars is of course ongoing. Look at their website and you'll see what they do. (Help for Heroes is a project-based charity whose work is complementary to the RBL).
Not only did people die for our right to be free to have a discussion like this: others were maimed for life fighting for that same right.
There are of course so many equally deserving charities needing our money. I'm glad, though, that the high profile of the poppy is there each year to help the British Legion to get the income it deserves.
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I think the main thing is to make a contribution. www.poppy.org.uk/ I always buy a poppy but quite often it ends up attached to my car's fascia.
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I forgot to say that swmbo and I are going to Ypres before Christmas.
Oh! and where can I get an enamel Poppy?
Martin.
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Just bought one, Thanks Pug.
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Mine arrived Saturday 24 hours after ordering. Ta PU.
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Martin you must go to the Menin Gate at 8pm, it's not to be missed.
Then have a meal at one of the restaurants with outside seating near the Tourist Information centre in the Square.
It's a beautiful town.
Pat
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Agree Pat - trying to remember the name of a place I've used numerous times there without reverting to Streetview....
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I can't remember either but it's one of the ones with a red canopy near the Cloth Hall!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 08:49
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"I can't remember either but it's one of the ones with a red canopy near the Cloth Hall!"
If it's the one opposite the Cloth Hall, its called the Hotel Regina which is where we usually stay, and yes the food is great. But having said that i have never had a bad meal anywhere in Ypres.
I first went there in 1988 and have been back 15 times since then, its a place i never tire of !
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Pat I will have to look at the full itinerary, but I'm not convinced the trip will be there that late.
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I can't imagine any itinerary that wouldn't include the 8pm ceremony Martin.
Pat
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>> I can't imagine any itinerary that wouldn't include the 8pm ceremony Martin.
>>
>> Pat
>>
It appears our doesn't Pat.
Martin
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Well, PU and I will just have to nag you until you decide to jump in your car and go back to Ieper on a more relaxed schedule.
You need time to discover and wander about, to eat and relax and ponder....
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 10:00
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Ieper is so easy to get to by road, straight off of the ferry (i use Dover/Dunkirk) on to the Motorway (A16 ?), then off onto the N8 which takes you directly into Ieper.
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>> You need time to discover and wander about, to eat and relax and ponder....
>>
>> Pat
>>
We'll have all that, but won't be there at 8.00 p.m. Out of our hands this time as there is a connection to make.
Best regards....Martin.
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>> Oh! and where can I get an enamel Poppy?
>>
>> Martin.
>>
They are sold online by some RBL's, If you buy from a well known auction site please be sure it is a RBL seller and the profit will go to the RBL.
EDIT :- I bought mine from the link in Pu's post above
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 08:46
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>> They are sold online by some RBL's, If you buy from a well known auction
>> site please be sure it is a RBL seller and the profit will go to
>> the RBL.
>
If an article in one of yesterdays papers is anything to go on it seems that RBL have sold out of theirs and the Ebay punters are now selling them on at massive profit with very little, if any, money going to the RBL... rather sad that people are prepared to profit from this, but I suppose not unexpected.
Looking at Ebay, some are genuine RBL sellers, just make sure you pick one of them!
Last edited by: hobby on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 09:28
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Enamel Poppy from that link proudly displayed on my lapel now. Thanks to PU and ON.
Regards to you all,
Martin.
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I always wear a poppy in respect of remembrance day - a white one.
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I always contribute but I never wear a poppy. Why not? Hard to explain, which is to say I don't have a good reason. My father fought in WW2. He was injured and had a war disability pension. He never wore one. I don't know why. I kind of respect his point of view, even if I don't understand why he held it. Just never asked him. And I do respect John Snow's view.
John
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I have sympathy for all the victims of war. No matter where they were born, which side they found themselves on or which culture they were brought uo in. For the most part they were all doing what someone told them was their duty or were simply killed or injured while trying to live their lives in the place they knew as home.
I fear the human race will never really learn from this while some seek power over others. We are but savages ultimately and while there remains any culture on the surface of the planet which sees warfare as a solution or a means to an end will have little choice but to justify and glorify the same duplicitous values in our own.
So yes, I wear a poppy. For all of those who have died and for all of those who will.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 09:26
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I have nothing but sympathy for the Poppy Appeal. Whatever your views on the rights and wrongs of the various conflicts that UK troops have been involved in, they deserve our support.
That said, I dislike advertising the fact that I have contributed to a charity, though I completely understand that the fund-raisers of the BL want to keep their campaign in the public eye, and the more people who wear a poppy the greater the momentum, so I'm in a bit of a quandary over that.
What I do object to is what has been called "poppy fascism", whereby people are in effect bullied into wearing a poppy. That can't be right.
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I am local to a North Yorkshire garrison town and we swimming teachers are expected to wear a poppy as part of our uniform. I am pleased to do so; my father and grandfather saw active Army service. I have a poppy sticker on the car and I do like the idea of an enamel poppy although I didn't know of their existence until a few mins ago.
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What do you pin it to when in swimming trunks?
Pat
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Whatever it is Pat it will be with great care...
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>>Whatever it is Pat it will be with great care...<<
And attention to small detail - especially if the pool is cold.
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I swim most nights. Club I use belongs to Duncan the Dragon. Lockers have keys on big safety pins. I pin mine on a tab inside the front of my shorts. One time it came undone just as I was doing a tumble turn...You know when a dolphin leaps about 10 feet out of the water, flips over and smashes back down onto the surface of the sea making rapid high pitched noises ? Yeah, you've got the picture...
:-)
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I have not worn a poppy for at least 40 years. And have no intention of wearing one ever.
Father injured in WW2 , 2 uncles killed and numerous relations in WW1..
When everyone is forced to wear one, it reminds me of the Soviet Union and group think..
Note this is not a comment on my views on our service people or their actions.
My wife wears one: on Remembrance Sunday. Which if i were to wear one would be the only day I would.
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>> When everyone is forced to wear one, it reminds me of the Soviet Union and
>> group think..
100%
And I say this as an ex-serviceman.
It seems that the not-wearing-a-poppy is becoming akin to the white feather of 1914... hysteria based on not actually knowing the facts.
Oh, I'll be wearing mine come monday.
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Its is a pity that two useless, stupid, morally wrong military excursions have heaped such public distaste on remembering those who have been injured or killed in battle.
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Zero
Don't be so polite... about it...
Last edited by: madf on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 18:38
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Is not "a stupid, morally wrong military excursion" a fairly accurate description of the First World War?
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so the First World war was morally justified? On what basis?
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WW1, because Britain was obligated to defend neutral Belgium by the terms of a 75-year old treaty. With Germany's invasion of Belgium on 4 August, and the Belgian King's appeal to Britain for assistance, Britain committed herself to Belgium's defence later that day.
As opposed to the last cock-up, where everyone was jerking off about the ' special relationship' with the US, and were dragged into it.
As France and Germany WEREN'T.
*edit* BUT in the big picture, Britain was spoiling for a dust-up anyways, due to german expanding its role in Africa etc, and military build-up by the Hun.
Last edited by: Ian (Cape Town) on Fri 5 Nov 10 at 19:22
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The stuff that led up to it was the big boys posturing, and my dick is bigger than yours stuff
BUT
As soon as it kicked off, it was a war for the freedom of many European countries, and to keep the, by then established, western European semi democracies and country boundaries.
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You confuse the stated reasons and the cause.
The causes of the first world war were many but include:
The race for naval superiority between Germany and Great Britain and fear that Germany was winning the race.
Economic competition between Germany and Great Britain. Germany was encroaching on many markets that had traditionally been British monopolies
The desire of competing European nations to create Empires, particularly in carving up Africa
The desire of smaller nations in Europe for independence which created instability
The interlocking treaties signed by European countries which made it inevitable that war would spread once declared.
Nothing very moral in that lot
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With the exception of Suez ( and probably NI) there has been a certain morality, and sound defensive reasons about most of the military actions this country has engaged in since 1914.
Until Iraq 2, and Afghanistan - they have none of those basic requirements. The British people know it as well. Hence the debate we have now.
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Wars are inevitably waged for self interest and money and morality is but a fig leaf The First World War was no more justified than our present military excursions.
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Really? Morality was a figleaf for the fights against napoleon and his republicanism, WW2 fascism and Nazism? The cold war - with its associated detterent - against communism?
That 1990 Gulf war? Sure, it's only about oil. NOT about a dictator bullying his neighbours...
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Gordon Corrigan, Mud, Blood and Poppycock - CG Have a read of it and see whether that makes you re-consider.
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...there has been a certain morality, and sound defensive reasons about most of the military actions this country has engaged in since 1914...Until Iraq 2, and Afghanistan - they have none of those basic requirements. The British people know it as well...
This British person doesn't know it, but can't be bothered to research it either.
What's the point?
Whatever the conclusion, I would still support our service men and women.
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>
>> This British person doesn't know it.
Of course they do.
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...This British person doesn't know it...
Meaning me, myself, I.
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I was refusing to believe you were that badly informed.
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...I was refusing to believe you were that badly informed...
By choice on this one.
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>> >
>> >> This British person doesn't know it.
>>
>> Of course they do.
>>
As Mr Kipling (the one sans the cakes wrote)
It's tommy this, and tommy that ...
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>> Nothing very moral in that lot
>>
CGN, have you by any chance read Niall Ferguson's The War of the World? Can recommend if not. All of what you said there, and more besides.
Really opened my eyes to the fact that mucky realpolitik stuff has always gone on - only difference being that we get to hear about more of it these days.
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>> The causes of the first world war were many but include:
>> The race for naval superiority between Germany and Great Britain and fear that Germany was
>> winning the race...
>> Nothing very moral in that lot
If you read "Diplomacy" by Henry Kissinger you will find he is largely of the same opinion. The first part of the book is a fascinating documentation of the complex series of intercountry relationships, wars, powerplay and misguided diplomacy in Europe over several centuries culminating in the tragedy that was WW1.
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I can honestly say that on few issues have I been of the same opinion as Henry Kissinger but I have to allow that on this matter his views are correct!
War is only inevitable if you want it to be and in 1914 Britain wanted war with Germany. What would have happened if there had been no First World War? Well you can only speculate but Hitler would have not come to power and there would probably have been no Second World War. In all probability there would have been no communist revolution in Russia. The world would certainly be very different
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WW2 was a continuation of WW1 - the fault of the Allies really mishandling their victory.
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Not really, WW1 sowed the seeds of WW2. The failure to win the peace in WW1 was the cause of WW2, a lesson the Allies took on board to help rebuild Germany afterwards.
Alas the Americans have forgotten that since.
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Well we could have ignored it and all be speaking German by now if they had invaded or at least we be a deeply subjected nation if they had occupied the channel ports, they would have denied us our trade routes across the world - basically we would have become effectively a German colony. Apart from the fact that we had morally right treaty obligations going to war was the only option we had. If we hadn't the French would have had their backsides whooped and the Germans would have had us by the throat even if they hadn't invaded. There was no option.
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>> Well we could have ignored it and all be speaking German by now if they
>> had invaded
Let be honest about this. Had the Germans invaded, many of us would have been unaffected or even benefited. Mt family line is racially pure enough to have survived, and I would look damn good in Black with deaths heads and jackboots.
The question is however, how many people that you know, like, respect, or work with, would not have been here now.
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Exactly Zero - and do they do Jackboots with Cuban heels eh ?
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>> What do you pin it to when in swimming trunks?
>>
>> Pat
>>
LoL I don't pin it to my trunks; it might affect my streamlining. I said uniform and no I don't mean shiny boots and a peaked cap.
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Bought mine this morning. The chap at the local supermarket was quite aghast that I gave him FOLDING MONEY!
Went to fill up with petrol - the chap who handled the pump asked what it was all about. I explained the Flanders story, and the 11/11/11. he was quite impressed.
Yep, for the barve men and women, standing in harm's way, we must NEVER forget.
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>>Yep, for the brave men and women, standing in harm's way, we must NEVER forget.
...whether they were volunteers or conscripts, and whether we think the politicians should have gone to war or not.
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I was interested to see the new chairman of Liverpool FC pictured wearing a poppy.
Nothing to stop him supporting a British charity, and I approve because it's one I also support.
But I wonder how much an American knows about the Poppy Appeal?
I'm sure the Americans have appeals for their service people which we don't know about.
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>> But I wonder how much an American knows about the Poppy Appeal?
>>
>> I'm sure the Americans have appeals for their service people which we don't know about.
Veterans Day.
A federal holiday, it is observed on November 11.
Fair goes to the yanks, especially as they can honour their flag on the day without being accused of being fascists...
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>>I was interested to see the new chairman of Liverpool FC pictured wearing a poppy.
Forgive my cynicism but am pretty sure all these football clubs and tv companies will have a huge supply of poppies that they hand over.
I don't believe that Sir Alex et al, and all the BBC newsreaders all are out in the streets buying their poppies?
Whats the views of those who wear "versions" of poppies, like the celebs on Strictly tonight and no doubt the ones on x factor will integrate poppies into their outfits?
Tacky or fitting?
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In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
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Tacky, but if it encourages a few more people to contribute to forces charities it's OK by me.
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The white crosses is a good hook. You only have to visit one of the war grave sites, and the sheer quantity and uniformness (if thats a word) really takes your breath away.
And then to drive for hundreds of miles from Calais to Strasbourg and see the sheer quantity of sites.
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Aren't the crosses for French war dead? British and Commonwealth have gravestones (including John McCrae, who wrote In Flanders Fields, who is buried at Wimereux Cemetery. )
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_McCrae_grave.JPG
Stone is flat because Cemetery is on sandy, unstable soil.
German graves are black crosses.
However, when poem was written (1915) the dead were buried (if possible given the numbers), with a white wooden cross marking the grave.
(I think)
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You're right Phil in every respect. The mass German graves in Langemark are amongst the most moving...a lot of them the schoolboys that were advanced against the superbly accurate British Infantry...Infantry now that's an interesting word.
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Aren't the crosses for French war dead? British and Commonwealth have gravestones (including John McCrae, who wrote In Flanders Fields, who is buried at Wimereux Cemetery. )
The Americans used crosses as well. They also have the Star of David on many of their graves instead.
We had some trouble in locating the grave of SWMBO's great Uncle Jim in Mendingham Cemetery near Proven in Belgium. Cheshire Regiment Died of wounds 7/7/17.
We knew his grave number and which row it was in but he wasn't there.
He was shown in grave number 10..it took us some time to find him in grave number 5.
They had buried them two to a grave and he was burial no. 10.
He lies with a corporal from the London Rifles. I have photo of his ' battlefield ' grave, with a simple wooden cross, sent to the family soon after his demise, before the ' proper ' cemeteries were built.
The names have eroded almost to the point of being unreadable now.
There sits the shadow fear'd of man
who broke our fair companionship
and wrapt his mantle dark and cold
and left thee formless in the fold
and dulled the murmur on thy lip
and bore thee where I could not see,
or follow, though I walk in haste
and know that somewhere in the waste
the shadow sits and waits for me.
Ted
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>> Veterans Day.
>> A federal holiday, it is observed on November 11.
Couldn't possibly do that here of course, it might offend someone.
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I am sure that plenty of Afghan and Iraqi families are more than offended.
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Then they can flock off can't they?
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Alas They have nowhere to flock off to. Its a bit like the yanks deciding they dont like your MP and bombing St Austel.
where would you go?
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Us is eest of st. orstel zo dunt effect uz.
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No its easy to say that from the safety of your country isn't it.
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Before you go into a rant I am acutely aware of the problems that are ever present and the fact that I and you and the wider populace are totally impotent to alter the course that the Richard heads of this world have set us on. Refer to previous posts both here and on HJ. Written when I was 18yo. I believe that if I live to be Three Score years and Ten then most of what we know now won't exist.
Depressing really, but a combination of greed, religion and inferior education are the only three curses that are to blame.
Night night all. MD
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>> I am sure that plenty of Afghan and Iraqi families are more than offended.
>>
If they're in Afghanistan or Iraq, fine. If they're over here, tough.
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Must admit I wear a poppy mainly to remember those of the First World War (even though mother, father, aunts and uncles were in forces in WW2) because so many young men volunteered without a clue of what it would be like, and so many died or suffered terrible injuries in desperate circumstances.
Doesn't really matter whether that war was morally right or not, they gave their lives because they thought it was morally right.
Grandfather (a young farmer in Yorkshire Dales in 1914) kept a diary of his WW1 experiences in 1915 and 1916 - my Dad found the diary by accident in 1980 long after he had died.
If you would like a read, it's here on a very primitive website I did in 1990 - one day I will update it.
www.soar100.freeserve.co.uk/
I bet every one of us here had a relative who fought, died or was injured in WW1 - as John Donne said
"Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee."
www.poetry-online.org/donne_for_whom_the_bell_tolls.htm
Phil
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>> I bet every one of us here had a relative who fought, died or was
>> injured in WW1 -
About 2.2% of the UK population died, about 3.2% injured. As you say, its unlikely any family were untouched.
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A lot of military personnel will have signed up before the Iraq and Afgan conflicts in order to serve the country. Whether or not they agreed with it, they fought, and some were wounded, some died. Quite how anyone can be against the poppy appeal beats me. And then there are the veterans from previous wars, such as the Korean War, WW2 and WW1 though there are now few left from the first war.
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"few left from the first war"
Think there is now one British man (was in navy?) and lives in Aus and one woman - ex nurse? Both are about 110 yrs old.
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>> "few left from the first war"
>> Think there is now one British man (was in navy?) and lives in Aus and
>> one woman - ex nurse? Both are about 110 yrs old.
>>
>>
The RBL isn't just dedicated to helping those who fought, but also their children and families. Those who fought in the first world war may have passed on, but the Legion's work continues.
I respect the views of those who decide against wearing a poppy; I have little time for those who belittle the work of the RBL.
My grandfather served in the Navy in WW1, one of his cousins died in France; my own father served in the RAF during WW2, his best friend was badly wounded in Normandy.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 7 Nov 10 at 09:01
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Anyone with some money to invest should take a look at the RBL's Poppy Bond with the Coventry BS.
Not only will you receive an interest rate better than most you will be contributing to a very worthwhile cause.
www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/shop-at-poppy-direct/finance-products-and-services
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As a little bit more about remembrance, there is a group building a new steam locomotive at Llangollen. Thre project is backed by the British Legion and a competition has been held to decide on a name for the engine.
The lucky winner came up with 'The Unknown Warrior'
It is intended to be the national War Memorial locomotive and is a further member of the Patriot class engines, built by the LMS in the 20s. None have survived the cutter's torck.
Three of the old companies had memorial locos, Patriot, Valour and Remembrance.
The LMS used to make sure Patriot was always around a certain place on Remembrance day....I can't remember where, but thay would park it on a bridge overlooking the village's war memorial.
Three of the class were named after the companie's VC winners. Those names were carried on until ' electric ' days but are sadly now defunct.
I feel strongly that they should be applied to current locomotives as should those of some guys who won the GC for bravery on the tracks, like Driver John Axon of Stockport.
Ted
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'No blood stained poppy on our hoops.'
Stupid bigots, and their team's rubbish.
Let's get them into the Premier League, they'd be relegated out of existence in five years.
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In contrast, at Leicester Tigers match against Quins on Friday night (last home cup/league game before Nov 11th) we had a minute's silence and the last post played by a bugler from the local cadet force. Quite moving - everyone stood up (we on the terrace were already standing but all around me took off their hats even though it was pouring down!). Absolute silence. Only problem was that we were all so impressed by the last post, we were all applauding during the Reveille bit.
The Tigers shirts all had a small poppy embroidered on and the match shirts will be auctioned in aid of the Poppy Fund. All match tickets sold included a donation to fund also.
There may well be a repeat tomorrow evening when a Tiger's team plays the Aussies in a "one-off" game (tickets still available if you want a good evening's sport and a pint or 2 afterwards in one of the many bars!) Last year a scratch Tigers team beat South Africa on a night to remember.
Mind you, club has close association with the Leics Regiment which is also nicknamed "Tigers".
Phil
Tickets
www.leicestertigers.com/tickets/index.php
Team
www.leicestertigers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30758
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>'No blood stained poppy on our hoops.'
>Stupid bigots, and their team's rubbish.
Spelling's not too good either.
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I'm saving that one up for later...
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Z. Where can I get that for keeps?
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I have just watched this. Very informative and extremely moving. Thank you.
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Thanks for link PU - missed it other night though wife said it was very moving and it brought a tear to my eye watching link .
Even saw a brief glimpse of 9.2 Howitzers in action at Somme - was grandad there?? -yes but not in front line. Thank God both grandfathers were in RGA - firing Howitzers from range of several thousand yards and not in infantry otherwise I would not be here!
Couple of quotes from Grandad's diary at Somme
"July 1st
Infantry attacked - cannot say as yet how things have gone. Heavens, what sights have come back! It is too awful for words. How little those who write and criticise in the papers realise what it is like."
"July 4th
Quieter day for us but more wounded coming back. This is terrible - thousands are being killed and wounded dying."
"July 6th
Things are still going well up at the line from tales we get but awful losses on both sides."
Wonder if I could have coped? Doubt it - would have been too much for me. Therefore sympathy for those who broke down - many executed for "cowardice". Even Wilfred Owen ended up in a mental hospital before going back to be killed - or was that one of other War poets?
Bought a couple more enamel pinbadge poppies for son and daughter at Woodall Services today - nice old bloke "selling" poppies - WW2 vet. Few quid but small price to pay for what they gave up. My old man spent from 1942 to 1947 in N Africa and Italy - 5 years from age 18 - best years of his life?
Phil
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And for those of you interested in reseaching WW1 or relatives involved try this site
1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?act=idx
some really helpful people on there
Phil
Last edited by: PhilW on Mon 8 Nov 10 at 22:21
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Views on Poppy wearing. - BobbyG
