| Non-motoring > Todays Voting. | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Zero | Replies: 134 |
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Thu 7 May 26 14:19
Todays Voting. - Zero
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Soooo, The Unitary authority is arriving, in my case West Surrey, and its the vote for the makeup of such. So I decided to vote. I voted for the two Tory candidates, despite the fact I despise the party after the debacles of Bojo and Liz Thrust. Why? the two are very localy active, running clinics, visiting local events and groups, punching above their weight with the authorities over local issues, very active social media presence, Live locally, generally focussed on the people in the ward. Turned up at the polling station - a large and well used old peeps day centre, to overhear the reform candidate outside say to someone "It's nice here isnt it, never been in this area before" So I found the two names of the reform candadiates, did an internet search and I can find nothing about them other than a link to the reform party. |
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Thu 7 May 26 15:18
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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| Glad you are sticking to the notion of voting for the (local) proven candidate, not the party. Not a lot of voters do that any more. |
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Thu 7 May 26 17:19
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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| Heard at ten-to-seven: The polling stations open in ten minutes. Tower Hamlets have declared their results! |
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Thu 7 May 26 19:44
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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No elections here. I have no notion of whether to expect Reform to do better than their polling, or worse. Presumably there will be some 'shy' Garage fans, equally perhaps a lot of intending protest voters will choke on actually voting for them. I almost want them to do well, to help ensure voters are heartily sick of them by the GE. I will will despair should Mr Nasty ever be PM. I wish I had an Irish grandparent so I wouldn't have to own him should the worst happen. I keep seeing people implying they don't like Reform but "they should have a chance". How thick can they be? |
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Thu 7 May 26 20:37
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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I unenthusiastically voted Conservative. The Labour devolved government in Wales have been a disaster, running the worst performing health service in the UK despite having more to spend per head on health than any of the other regions. Reform are full of right wing nutters and the Greens have all the left wing nutters and laughable economic policies. Plaid Cymru - who campaigned to stay in the EU because bigger is stronger - want Wales to be independent, failing to explain how a country where 50% of the workforce are employed in the public sector could pay their way. The Lib Dems? Who are they? |
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Thu 7 May 26 21:54
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> I unenthusiastically voted Conservative. Miss B, in the diametrically opposite corner of Wales, was scratching her head over how to minimise the chances of Refuk getting people in her constituency. |
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Thu 7 May 26 22:17
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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>> I unenthusiastically voted Conservative. The Labour devolved government in Wales have been a disaster, running >> the worst performing health service in the UK despite having more to spend per head >> on health than any of the other regions. I presume you mean 'ruining, not running? |
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Fri 8 May 26 09:44
Todays Voting. - Bobby
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In Scotland we have the Scottish parliament election and no overnight counting so will filter though today. Currently having a whatsapp chat with family on Reform - its easy to say they are full of nutters and god forbid they ever get in. Reality is they are winning all across England and they will definitely have a substantial presence in Scotland due to our voting system. Other parties need to understand why people vote for reform and counteract that message. I no longer think its all about stopping the boats. But as I say in my family chat, we are all in a position that none of us have asylum seeker hotels on our doorstep and dealing with the realities of what that may bring. But reform are also anti woke / anti gender stuff - I can get on board with that and I think there is a lot of society that simply wants to have established definitions of what a man and a woman is. They want to purge civil servants - to many in society who are not civil servants, thats an easy win , without then having to explain what would you do to replace these jobs. A lot of Reform message is what they want to change but not so much meat on the bones about how they will do it. But reality is, as it stands, at the next election I think we will be looking at PM Farage unless the other parties can do something about it. |
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Fri 8 May 26 09:54
Todays Voting. - Zero
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>> A lot of Reform message is what they want to change but not so much >> meat on the bones about how they will do it. Its pure trumpism. Pick a handful of messages from stuff that people grumble about, stuff that outrages and looks offensive on TV, and have a dramatic answer. Alas government and power is more than that, far more joined up, - lots of stuff like a jigsaw - and all farage is interested in, indeed has experience of, is corners of said jig saw and making a noise. Farage is Trump mk2. As for anti woke/ gender stuff, problem is in Scotland is that Sturgeon and hence the SNP went big into gender freedom, far too far too fast - unworkable in many cases, and offended her core vote |
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Fri 8 May 26 10:15
Todays Voting. - Bobby
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| agree with all that - but how do other parties counteract it? |
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Fri 8 May 26 10:29
Todays Voting. - Duncan
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How do you convince the electorate that it will be unwise to vote for Reform? The thought of Farage as PM frightens me. The man has absolutely no experience. |
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Fri 8 May 26 12:24
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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| Farage has said: please Keir, don't quit, you're my best asset. |
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Fri 8 May 26 12:57
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> How do you convince the electorate that it will be unwise to vote for Reform? >> >> >> Take notice of their concerns and do something about them. Something that should have been learned after seeing Trump elected in the USA. |
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Fri 8 May 26 15:06
Todays Voting. - Terry
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I make no apologies - my natural political home is trad Tory. No surprise they failed due to the Johnson/Truss debacle. Labour won an overwhelming majority due to the Tory/Reform split - a function of a FPTP system which works best with two main parties. Greens have morphed from legitimate environmental to far left lead by the completely odious. Labour policies are not all bad. However any hope of honest, transparent, growth, change etc have been completely misplaced. They are a failure. The UK needs radical change the traditional political establishment have proven entirely incapable of delivering Needs clear and unambiguous leadership, an intent to make changes not excuses. If the Tories are no longer a credible political force, there are really only two options. LibDem are very nice people but no more real experience of government than Reform a recipe for the anodyne Reform are B/S merchants with simplistic populist soundbites, but differentiated from the rest of the political establishment by the way they communicate and may (hopefully) act. They would not be my first choice, but are clearly the default option. Labour and Greens don't even get to the starting gate, LibDems may be a tactical vote. |
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Mon 11 May 26 13:44
Todays Voting. - Alanovich
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>> >> How do you convince the electorate that it will be unwise to vote for >> Reform? >> >> >> Take notice of their concerns and do something about them. Something that should have been >> learned after seeing Trump elected in the USA. >> It's one thing to notice entirely imaginary concerns, it's another to be able to do anything real about them. |
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Mon 11 May 26 14:17
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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| That's the problem. What they want is largely not deliverable or desirable. |
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Mon 11 May 26 15:01
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> That's the problem. What they want is largely not deliverable or desirable. >> ... or affordable ? That may need to be explained more thoroughly, which may also explain why little is being done. Trouble is, one of RR's first acts after becoming Chancellor was to hand out the big rise to the loco-drivers' union, which they had presumably agreed to beforehand ? |
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Mon 11 May 26 17:02
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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What I was referring to is what the Reform voters want. e.g. "More than half of Reform UK members believe non-white British citizens born abroad should be deported or encouraged to leave, according to the first publicly available poll of those in Nigel Farage’s party." |
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Mon 11 May 26 17:28
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> e.g. >> >> "More than half of Reform UK members believe non-white British citizens born abroad should be >> deported or encouraged to leave, according to the first publicly available poll of those in >> Nigel Farage’s party." >> If the government deported illegal immigrants Reform's vote would collapse. |
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Mon 11 May 26 17:46
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> If the government deported illegal immigrants Reform's vote would collapse. Only in your dreams!! |
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Mon 11 May 26 18:09
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> Only in your dreams!! >> If by "in your dreams" you mean about the government deporting illegals, I agree. But if you mean it wouldn't have a dramatic effect on Reform's support, why do you think so many people vote for them? Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Mon 11 May 26 at 18:09
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Mon 11 May 26 18:47
Todays Voting. - Bobby
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And exactly why Reform don’t want the boats to stop. Bear in mind, before Brexit which Farage instigated, this wasn’t the issue that it is now. |
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Mon 11 May 26 21:08
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> And exactly why Reform don’t want the boats to stop. >> Bear in mind, before Brexit which Farage instigated, this wasn’t the issue that it is >> now. >> Bit of a conundrum. Accepting the proposition that: - people only vote for Reform because of a belief in their illegal immigration policies, - Labour would be the darlings of the electorate if they stopped illegal immigration Begs the question - why have Labour been so incompetent in sorting out illegal immigration |
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Mon 11 May 26 21:29
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> Begs the question - why have Labour been so incompetent in sorting out illegal immigration >> >> Because labour has become dominated by those who believe that anyone criticising any degree of immigration is a racist. |
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Tue 12 May 26 11:42
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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It might be helpful to say in what way Labour has been "incompetent", how that differs from what the Conservatives did when Jenrick was at the Home Office, and what Reform would supposedly do to fix it now they have the benefit of Jenrick. It won't help to defeat Reform to tell their voters that they are thick or ignorant. But some actual facts and analysis might reveal how unrealistic is the idea that Reform will benefit anybody except its donors and its owners. Much the same goes for the Conservatives. Why any working person would ever support them other than tactically I have never understood. What we are seeing now is in part the consequence of Thatcher's lunatic ideological privatisation strategy. It has been revealed as a takeover of public assets for private gain by legalised theft of public funds. It's now almost all foreign owned (both equity and debt) and embeds a structural balance of payments deficit as a result of the continual outflow of profits, dividend and interest cost. All of this financed by us and adding to the budget deficit. I don't deny that Labour also adopted this trick enthusiastically in the Blair years with PFI and there doesn't seem to be a way out of it unless we can somehow move back to public ownership of infrastructure and utilities in particular and I include the operation of the NHS and social services. That can't happen while we are paying through the nose for both the financing of services and the profits made by people who pay no tax here. Stop supporting billionaires, and thinking of low tax as a sensible government objective. What use is low tax when we are paying double what we ought to be for energy and water, and my wife has to wait from January to November for a cardiology appointment? (She has a private consultation next week). |
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Tue 12 May 26 22:56
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> It might be helpful to say in what way Labour has been "incompetent", Winter fuel allowance, Mandelson, contemplating cancelling ome local elections, mandatory digital ID reversed, farm inheritance tax, defence spending review delays, minor welfare reforms reversed, NI increases, etc, etc Unemployment increased, increase in universal credit claimants, house building commitment missed (could catch up??), low growth, illegal immigration continues almost without constraint Starmer in my estimation is a decent man - but completely uninspiring. There us no sense of urgency or purpose, relying upon half truths, selective statistics and semantics to cover the lack of real progress. No big idea - just trudging towards a diffuse goal. Not what was promised - CHANGE. There have been some good things done - it is easy to spend money. On the international front he may warrant a 7 or 8 out of 10 vs 3 out of 10 on domestic issues. The basic conservative proposition that growth is the engine of better public services and improved living standards is sound. In the 1970s the UK was known as the sick man of Europe with good reason. Thatcher radically changed the UKpolitical and economic landscape for the better - some fallout could have been handled better. Without radical action UK PLC will continue its steady decline into economic obscurity. I also have reservations over Reform who will be unable to deliver all they promise. But many see them as an attractive alternative to the failing traditional parties who in their efforts to avoid alienating anyone have largely failed to change anything of consequence. >> |
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Tue 12 May 26 10:05
Todays Voting. - Duncan
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>> Bear in mind, before Brexit which Farage instigated, this wasn’t the issue that it is >> now. >> I could have sworn that David Cameron instigated Brexit, or the referendum which triggered it. |
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Tue 12 May 26 10:24
Todays Voting. - smokie
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:-) Duncan. I see your point but one AI (CoPilot) concludes "Farage did not single‑handedly instigate Brexit — the referendum was formally called by David Cameron — but: "He built UKIP into a major force "He pressured the government into offering the referendum "He shaped public opinion on the EU "He was a leading voice in the Leave campaign "So while he didn’t legally trigger Brexit, he was one of the key political figures who made Brexit happen." However Perplexity says "he instigated or catalysed Brexit politically, but he was not the only driver. Brexit was the result of a wider movement and a chain of decisions by many actors, with Farage as a key agitator and campaigner" There's loads more detail which we already know and doesn't need repeating!! |
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Tue 12 May 26 11:12
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> :-) Duncan. I see your point but one AI (CoPilot) concludes >> >> "Farage did not single‑handedly instigate Brexit — the referendum was formally called by David Cameron >> — but: >> >> "He built UKIP into a major force >> >> "He pressured the government into offering the referendum >> >> "He shaped public opinion on the EU >> >> "He was a leading voice in the Leave campaign >> >> "So while he didn’t legally trigger Brexit, he was one of the key political figures >> who made Brexit happen." >> >> However Perplexity says >> >> "he instigated or catalysed Brexit politically, but he was not the only driver. Brexit was >> the result of a wider movement and a chain of decisions by many actors, with >> Farage as a key agitator and campaigner" >> >> There's loads more detail which we already know and doesn't need repeating!! David Cameron made a promise to hold a referendum on EU membership in 2013 should the Tories win the next election. This was in response to pressure from some of is own MPs who had always been Eurosceptical, and the rise of UKIP seen as a threat at the time. Cameron was complacent and thought that there was little chance of a vote in favour. Farage campaigned otherwise and won. At least Cameron had the decency to resign immediately. |
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Tue 12 May 26 11:47
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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| And what was the result of him resigning? With hindsight he was the best of a bad lot. The decent thing would have been to see it through and prevent the utter trashing of our relationship with Europe. We have had a lost decade and it's not over yet but a long chalk. |
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Tue 12 May 26 21:55
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> And what was the result of him resigning? With hindsight he was the best of >> a bad lot. The decent thing would have been to see it through and prevent >> the utter trashing of our relationship with Europe. We have had a lost decade and >> it's not over yet but a long chalk. Largely agree. Cameron was decent but unremarkable. Had he remained as PM he would have lacked the conviction to get a deal done - and with Boris and Co critical at every stage I suspect he would have been pushed had he not jumped. |
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Fri 8 May 26 15:32
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> How do you convince the electorate that it will be unwise to vote for Reform? >> The general problem is that voters are fed up with amateur politicians, in particular Tories and Labour. Their dilemma is who might prove a better alternative. Luckily we have no elections here, so I don't have to choose. |
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Fri 8 May 26 16:26
Todays Voting. - Zero
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>> >> How do you convince the electorate that it will be unwise to vote for >> Reform? >> >> >> The general problem is that voters are fed up with amateur politicians, Well that have got that in spades now. Reform is the very definition of amateur |
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Mon 18 May 26 11:18
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> But reform are also anti woke / anti gender stuff - I can get on >> board with that I can't. It's just another example of 'othering'. Another group of people they can blame. >>and I think there is a lot of society that simply wants >> to have established definitions of what a man and a woman is. That's clearly not easy because nobody has managed to please everybody yet. I don't feel the compulsion to have much opinion on this. I would just like everybody to have the chance of a decent life and to have a reasonable carry on while they are about it. I don't think I know anybody who has been harmed as a result of somebody being trans-sexual. Queer people of all kinds have always been around. As evidenced by the bible, the only useful contribution it has made on this topic. It's normal. Not typical of most people, but normal. We got rid of legal persecution and a good thing too. Do we want that creeping back? Reform politicians are presumably doing their best at the moment to look like decent electable people yet most of them still come over as arrogant or unpleasant. If they ever get control we will see much more plainly how thoroughly vile they really are. That's all that's happened in the US - they got control. Wake up people. We need more woke not less. |
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Fri 8 May 26 16:31
Todays Voting. - Zero
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>> I voted for the two Tory candidates, despite the fact I despise the party after >> the debacles of Bojo and Liz Thrust. Why? the two are very localy active, running >> clinics, visiting local events and groups, punching above their weight with the authorities over local >> issues, very active social media presence, Live locally, generally focussed on the people in the >> ward. And pleased to say my choices got elected. |
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Fri 8 May 26 16:39
Todays Voting. - Zero
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Apparently the electorate in Clacton have a new name for Nigel Farage - The Clacton Clitoris (because no-one can find him) He wont do local surgeries, because he claims he doesent get security. |
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Fri 8 May 26 17:23
Todays Voting. - tyrednemotional
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>> >> He wont do local surgeries, because he claims he doesent get security. >> Well, I can certainly believe one might need more than £5M-worth of security in Clacton. ;-) |
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Fri 8 May 26 18:30
Todays Voting. - Terry
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Had traditional parties done an even half competent job, Farage and Polanski would still be minority interests. Having very strong views about the competence, plans, feasibility etc of any party (in this case Reform) is understandable. Similar extreme doubts about the alternatives would probably have more substance given their performance over the last few decades. Persuading people not to vote Reform or Green (by far the less pleasant of the two) is wrong - far better to give them a reason to vote for the mostly decent Tory, Labour, LibDem. They need to massively raise their game. |
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Fri 8 May 26 22:22
Todays Voting. - Duncan
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>> And pleased to say my choices got elected. >> However, Lib Dems have overall control in West Surrey. |
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Fri 8 May 26 22:40
Todays Voting. - Zero
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>> >> And pleased to say my choices got elected. >> >> >> >> However, Lib Dems have overall control in West Surrey. And you east enders it seems |
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Sun 10 May 26 09:04
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-local-elections-england-scotland-wales-2026-starmer-12593360?postid=11661976#liveblog-body So how long has starmer got left, weeks or a couple of months? |
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Sun 10 May 26 09:15
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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>> So how long has starmer got left, weeks or a couple of months? Who would replace him? The others don't bear thinking about. I wonder if it's like the tories, nobody wanted the PM's job when it was given to Rishi. |
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Sun 10 May 26 09:22
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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| They'll be plenty that want the job. |
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Sun 10 May 26 09:41
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> So how long has Starmer got left, weeks or a couple of months? << He was claiming last night that he wanted to be there for the decade ! ? |
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Sun 10 May 26 12:11
Todays Voting. - Terry
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Being PM is the political summit. It takes single minded, focused, egotistical, sharp elbows etc to get there. I can think of only one in recent decades who have jumped rather than being pushed. I can’t recall any ex-PM making a return to the top. Most write autobiography, get on the lecture circuit, etc. Most quit Parliament. Any thought of resignation is subordinated to the egotistical imperative the country NEEDS your judgement, talent, skills etc etc. Kier is no different in that regard to Boris, Liz, Tony, Margaret. The only PM I recall resigning over a gross error of judgement is Cameron - to be commended!! |
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Sun 10 May 26 13:16
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> The only PM I recall resigning over a gross error of judgement is Cameron - >> to be commended!! Arguably Eden over Suez. |
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Sun 10 May 26 14:50
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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>> >> The only PM I recall resigning over a gross error of judgement is Cameron >> - >> >> to be commended!! >> >> Arguably Eden over Suez. Maybe Terry doesn't like to think he's as old as some of us here? |
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Sun 10 May 26 17:33
Todays Voting. - Terry
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Age 73. My political awakening came on joining the local Conservative club, age 18, in 1971. Honesty compels me to concede the principal motivation was cheap beer and three snooker tables, not the premiership of Ted Heath and his policies. Eden resigned apparently due to ill health (when I was 4). The right thing to do but not an issue fundamental political integrity or decency. |
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Mon 11 May 26 07:14
Todays Voting. - Falkirk Bairn
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Churchill had 2 spells Churchill was PM during WW2. Lost to Atlee in the 1945 election but returned as PM in the 1951. |
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Mon 11 May 26 08:10
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Churchill had 2 spells As did Wilson. 1964-70 and then 1974 until he resigned in 1976. IN that time he won four GEs albeit only with a decisive majority in one - 66. |
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Tue 12 May 26 12:56
Todays Voting. - John F
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Best thing about Harold Wilson - he kept us out of Viet Nam. Clearly most mainstream journos enjoy purveying the ad hominem sneering disapproval of Farage by the metropolitan elite - who are clearly out of touch with the UK's widespread mood of dismay and desperation. I have just looked at the 20 paragraphs of the Reform manifesto on their website - and find myself approving all of them to a greater or lesser degree. The ineffectual incompetence of the mainstream politicos have only themselves to blame if Reform eventually gains real power. |
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Tue 12 May 26 15:43
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> The ineffectual incompetence of the mainstream politicos have only themselves to blame if Reform eventually gains real power. >> Quite so. But the Reform bunch, despite perhaps dispensing lots of attractive messages, will nearly all have no experience of achieving anything when IN power. I suspect some, like A Rayner, think their job is done by getting elected, no idea afterwards. |
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Tue 12 May 26 16:43
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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>> >> The ineffectual incompetence of the mainstream politicos have only themselves to blame if Reform >> eventually gains real power. >> >> >> Quite so. But the Reform bunch, despite perhaps dispensing lots of attractive messages, will nearly >> all have no experience of achieving anything when IN power. I suspect some, like A >> Rayner, think their job is done by getting elected, no idea afterwards. >> You can add others to that list starting with the current PM. |
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Tue 12 May 26 17:01
Todays Voting. - smokie
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That happened locally, LibDems managed to take control of the long standing local Tory council with big plans but once they thought they had the power to do things they found they don't really, and it's not as easy as shouting from the sidelines was. Still, it's made a change.... |
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Tue 12 May 26 18:19
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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You must have been reading a different set of policies to me. They start off by saying that politicians choose not to enforce the law on immigration, and then go on to describe how they will leave the ECHR and go on to say they will withdraw from and disapply international treaties and repeal the Human Rights Act. The first 4/20 items are immigration related. They are creating concerns, not addressing them. This is what fascists do to gain power. They have been successful in doing this with immigration which 50% of people put at the top of general concerns, along with the economy/cost of living. However it comes somewhat lower when people are asked what issues are affecting them (think potholes!) They blithely say "improve the NHS by working to redirect funding from back office bloat back into frontline services" as if it's a given that there is bloat and an excessive proportion of resources employed in unproductive roles. In reality, this has been debated at length with evidence being adduced that the NHS is often under managed - management roles make up around 10% in general UK employment and 3% or less in NHS hospitals, although many clinical staff have managerial elements in their work - taking this away would presumably tend to increase the number of pure management roles. In other words, they are just making up plausible stuff. 6 -" Restore Britain's sovereignty". This is just Brexit rhetoric. A minority now think Brexit was a good idea. 7 - Make law abiding citizens feel safe. I already do, thanks. They are of course planting and spreading the idea that this is a dangerous country. Comparisons suggest this is not the case. They are making stuff up again. 8- "make work pay". Translation - cut taxes and reduce welfare. This is their DOGE. Guess whose taxes they will cut first? Perhaps they have import tariffs up their sleeve? 9 - "Scrap net zero to cut energy bills". Long run, clean energy should reduce bills. Unless some idiots put it into reverse. They don't actually explain why scrapping net zero will sustainably cut energy bills. Just words again, culture war stuff. 10 - Sentimental twaddle as far as I can see although there is a vague allusion to what I think is IHT on farms. I would agree this is a problem for family farms but why should farmers' wealth be treated so very differently to mine? At the end of the day, there is nothing to stop the beneficiaries from selling up and dividing the spoils. They still have a larger allowance than the rest of estates and the changes were made because it is very obvious that the seriously wealthy have been buying farmland to avoid IHT, probably not unconnected with the present absolutely crazy price of farmland 11 - Revitalise manufacturing ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. This is going well in the USA. 12 - similar twaddle, including supporting entrepreneurs - tax cuts for the wealthy again? 13 - Defend and protect British culture and traditions. Nasty stuff lurking here. Christian values. Britain's proud history. Britain uber alles. "ban DEI quotas" (now where did they get that from? The UK term is/was EDI. And mandatory quotas do not exist in the UK, in fact EDI is subject to the Equality Act. Making stuff up again, and cutting and pasting from MAGA. 14 - Rebuild the armed forces. Well even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I think this might be on everybody's agenda. But did they have to include "end woke"? They don't explain what that means of course. I might continue this later, it's making me feel slightly ill. But it does continue in a similar mainly non-specific vein. And includes more dog-whistling re immigration. They are a nascent nasty, dangerous cult. Not to say anybody has got everything right, or even that it is possible. I do think excessive regulation is an issue for Europe generally. But I'm not sure we can just ignore that and do our own thing even if we want to. The value in cooperating with Europe is so high. Maybe we should ensure that we have some input into the regulation...no, too silly. |
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Tue 12 May 26 19:34
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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I should say I love Britain. Almost all of it. Not quite as much as Yorkshire, but quite a lot. Reform actually hates it in large part. I feel that it hates me, or it would if it knew my views. I hate that Reform actually wants to subvert what we have, a bit broken as it might be, for its own ends. The resemblance to MAGA is uncanny. It's there to see. And maybe the causes are similar, albeit less extreme. "Christian values" have no place in politics. They can be used to support practically any policy from generous welfare to outright oppression (a bit like other Abrahamic religions they are not so fond of). We have human values and human rights. instead of religious edicts. They claim they support freedom of religion "but" our culture is based on "christian values". How are non-christians supposed to feel about this? Especially when the invisible deity starts ordering their lives (there is no reason to suppose this won't happen - why are they so keen to include this in their policies?) You only have to triangulate from Farage's remark's on the abortion time limits, the declared "family agenda" and their pledge to ban "transgender ideology" in schools. They are intolerant and they will make our society intolerant if they get the chance. |
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Wed 13 May 26 19:52
Todays Voting. - Bobby
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| Excellent summaries Manatee. |
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Wed 13 May 26 20:00
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> "Christian values" have no place in politics. They claim they support freedom of religion "but" >> our culture is based on "christian values". How are non-christians supposed to feel about this? >> Especially when the invisible deity starts ordering >> their lives (there is no reason to suppose this won't happen - why are they >> so keen to include this in their policies?) Google Christian values - principles derived from the teachings of Jesus Christ, focusing on love, compassion, humility, integrity, and justice. Centered on loving God and others, these values guide ethical living, promoting forgiveness, service, and treating others with dignity What is the problem with that. In the UK apparently 46% are Christian, 37% admit to no religion - the balance of 17% is the rest. Reflect that on their web site Reform have 20 bullet points, each underpinned by a brief paragraph. Labour manifesto runs to over 130 pages. The former communicates a clear intent, the latter is an exercise in obfuscation put together by a committee intent on justifying all and any message. Pathetic!! One can have entirely different opinions on, say, immigration. But the implication this is motivated only by racism is unjustified. There are very sound economic, equity and demographic reasons for so doing with have nothing to do with skin colour or ethnicity. The intent to fund the NHS, Defence, put Britain first etc is an entirely reasonable proposition, not some sort of far right conspiracy. Any more that re-nationalising rail and steel is a far left Stalinist plot. |
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Wed 13 May 26 23:08
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> >> Google Christian values - principles derived from the teachings of Jesus Christ, focusing on love, >> compassion, humility, integrity, and justice. Centered on loving God and others, these values guide ethical >> living, promoting forgiveness, service, and treating others with dignity Christians do not have a monopoly on " love, compassion, humility, integrity, and justice" or "ethical living, promoting forgiveness, service, and treating others with dignity" and it is unnecessary to invoke christianity or any other religion. Actually that looks more like a list of things that Farage doesn't subscribe to. We know where they are going with the christian guff, they have told us. You chose to ignore that. It's not the love they are interested in, it's control. Do you think they are sincere? |
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Thu 14 May 26 15:36
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> Christians do not have a monopoly on " love, compassion, humility, integrity, and justice" or >> "ethical living, promoting forgiveness, service, and treating others with dignity" and it is unnecessary to >> invoke christianity or any other religion. Actually that looks more like a list of things >> that Farage doesn't subscribe to. Using "christian" as a shorthand to describe these worthy qualities in a predominantly christian country seems entirely reasonable way to communicate. I suspect most of us (and all politicians) would claim to subscribe even if personal actions are inconsistent. >> We know where they are going with the christian guff, they have told us. You >> chose to ignore that. It's not the love they are interested in, it's control. >> >> Do you think they are sincere? Farage and Reform think they are sincere. I think they are attached to simplistic sound bites, many of which will prove undeliverable, with possibly unintended consequences. Senior politicians (of all parties) get excessive media and personal criticism. They all need an ego whose size comfortably exceeds the stresses they are subject to. They believe their control as parliamentarians is thew solution. The only question is "why". It may be economic growth, social well-being, equality (wealth, opportunity etc), employment, etc etc. Few would admit otherwise. For some the "why" may actually be more personal - fame, wealth etc. What the real motives of Farage and Reform are is a matter of opnion - but to suggest they are driven substantially by personal enrichment and power is unjustified without clear evidence. |
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Thu 14 May 26 10:57
Todays Voting. - car4play
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I love Britain too – almost all of it - yup, even Yorkshire! Well at least I like the accent. On the “Christian values have no place in politics” bit: I think we don’t always realise how much those values are baked into the culture we all grew up in, even for the atheist or agnostic. Stuff like don’t steal, don’t covet, don’t lie, love your neighbour as yourself, and the basic idea that every human life has real worth and dignity. However, these values aren’t just automatic for everyone. I’ve had conversations abroad (China especially) where people were pretty blase about things that would horrify us here. Things like “who cares if there’s a massive hole in the road and a cyclist falls in at night and dies? We’ve got plenty of people anyway.” It's times like this that make you see how much our built-in ethics come from a Christian-shaped background. I think we take it for granted until we run into a completely different worldview. Even Richard Dawkins calls himself a “cultural Christian”. He’s not a believer, but he says he prefers the Christian culture, loves the hymns and cathedrals, and would pick it over, say, Islam every time because it’s fundamentally more decent on women, tolerance, etc. Our laws and institutions grew out of Judeo-Christian principles over centuries too; things like the rule of law, individual dignity, equality before the law, mercy, protecting the weak. So saying keep Christianity out of politics while standing in a system built on those roots feels a bit like wanting the fruit but not the tree. Obviously I’m glad we have secular human rights and a proper separation of church and state. No one wants theocracy or God dictating policy. But pretending those underlying values have no history risks weakening exactly what makes our society tolerant and worth protecting. |
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Thu 14 May 26 11:17
Todays Voting. - tyrednemotional
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>> >> On the “Christian values have no place in politics” bit: I think we don’t always >> realise how much those values are baked into the culture we all grew up in, >> even for the atheist or agnostic. Stuff like don’t steal, don’t covet, don’t lie, love >> your neighbour as yourself, and the basic idea that every human life has real worth >> and dignity. >> Not a bad statement, but if one is going to claim "Christian Values" it shouldn't be a Pick'nMix from the above. (And I note that Reform appear to be using the term "Christian Heritage", which may be a carefully chosen description). |
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Sat 16 May 26 06:31
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> >> >> >> On the “Christian values have no place in politics” bit: I think we don’t >> always >> >> realise how much those values are baked into the culture we all grew up >> in, >> >> even for the atheist or agnostic. Stuff like don’t steal, don’t covet, don’t lie, >> love >> >> your neighbour as yourself, and the basic idea that every human life has real >> worth >> >> and dignity. >> >> >> >> Not a bad statement, but if one is going to claim "Christian Values" it shouldn't >> be a Pick'nMix from the above. Exactly. I have no problem with people being Christian, but the Bible is not the law and especially very carefully selected bits are not the law. The reason Reform's attachment to Christian values is sinister is this. Jesus has in the US been hijacked for use as a badge for Christian Nationalism. A Venn diagram for 'Christian Nationalism', MAGA and white supremacy is practically one circle. Reforms 'policies' contain obvious cut and paste from MAGA. I am sickened when decent people make excuses for Reform as personified by Farage. There's nothing Christian about it or him. |
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Thu 14 May 26 13:13
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> On the “Christian values have no place in politics” bit: I think we don’t always >> realise how much those values are baked into the culture we all grew up in, >> even for the atheist or agnostic. Stuff like don’t steal, don’t covet, don’t lie, love >> your neighbour as yourself, and the basic idea that every human life has real worth >> and dignity. Isn't that Abrahamic rather than Christian? The 'ten commandments' are equally embedded in JUdaism and Islam. |
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Fri 15 May 26 17:56
Todays Voting. - car4play
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Fair point - the Ten Commandments are Abrahamic and shared with Judaism. But the specific flavour that shaped Britain and the West is the Christian development of those roots. Christianity emphasised universal human dignity (every person made in God’s image), mercy, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and monogamous marriage as the ideal. That’s what got baked into our culture, common law, and institutions over centuries – not just the raw Old Testament rules. Islam shares some Abrahamic stuff, but it diverges on key bits in practice: polygamy is allowed and common in many Muslim societies (up to four wives), while Christianity went strongly monogamous. On lying, there’s the concept of taqiyya - permitting deception in certain situations to protect the faith or self, which isn’t really a Christian thing. That’s why even Richard Dawkins, as an atheist, says he’s a "cultural Christian" and would choose Christianity over Islam every time, because he sees the Christian culture as fundamentally more decent on things like women’s rights, tolerance, and personal freedoms. It’s not that the Ten Commandments are uniquely Christian. It’s that the Christian evolution of those values (plus the New Testament) produced the tolerant, individual-rights-focused society we live in, one that treats polygamy, honour-based violence, or religiously sanctioned deception as alien. Importing large numbers of people from very different ethical systems risks diluting exactly that. Last edited by: car4play on Fri 15 May 26 at 17:56
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Fri 15 May 26 13:35
Todays Voting. - Alanovich
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>> Obviously I’m glad we have secular human rights and a proper separation of church and >> state. Pardon? The hereditary Head of State in this country is automatically also the head of the Established Church - i.e. the Church of England is an Established part of the country's governance. Its Bishops sit in the national Legislature unelected, by rights. Personally speaking I'm a Disestablishmentarianist, and a Republican (not the Yank type I hasten to add), as I believe there SHOULD be separation of Church and State, which is certainly not the case today. Sittings in both Houses of Parliament start with Prayers: www.parliament.uk/about/how/business/prayers/ |
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Wed 13 May 26 16:02
Todays Voting. - John F
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>> They are a nascent nasty, dangerous cult......>> Well, IMHO an argument, however verbose and persistent, is lost and an opinion becomes almost weightless if it reverts to derision and insults, e.g. '.....how thick can they be..' (to support them)... in a previous post from the same poster. |
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Wed 13 May 26 22:30
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> >> >> They are a nascent nasty, dangerous cult......>> >> >> Well, IMHO an argument, however verbose and persistent, is lost and an opinion becomes almost >> weightless if it reverts to derision and insults, e.g. '.....how thick can they be..' (to >> support them)... in a previous post from the same poster. Context - "I keep seeing people implying they don't like Reform but "they should have a chance". How thick can they be?" That sounds pretty stupid to me whichever party is under discussion. The cult opinion is not an insult. I think Reform is cult personality cult around Farage. The 'policies' are vague at best. |
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Thu 14 May 26 08:07
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> I think Reform is cult personality cult around >> Farage. That. Exactly. If he walked in front of a bus this afternoon what would be left? |
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Thu 14 May 26 09:41
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> I think Reform is a personality cult around Farage. >> >> >> If he walked in front of a bus this afternoon what would be left? >> A bunch of escapees from the Tory party ? |
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Thu 14 May 26 15:35
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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Angie has said her bill to the HMRC has been settled (she's a politician, I could say I'm not a Martian!). Could Wes have resigned, so he can challenge Starmer and get his oar in before Angie? Interesting times. Just saying, like. |
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Thu 14 May 26 15:47
Todays Voting. - Terry
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I think Streeting is challenging Starmer to resign and set a timetable for an orderly transition which could include Burnham. This keeps all wings of the party ?happy? given that many on the left would find Streeting difficult to accept. Alternatively Streeting could (I assume) summon the 81 names for a formal challenge. This would probably exclude Burnham from the contest due to time constraints. Streeting is playing politics - the former is honorable, the latter takes a competitor out of the game. Either way Angie, and any others who choose to put themselves forward, can stand. |
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Fri 15 May 26 12:39
Todays Voting. - Boxsterboy
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I don't understand what is going on at Labour. Do they not remember how the Tories were rightly hounded out of office for multiple leadership changes? The likely candidates to replace Starmer seem more left wing, which means more welfare spending, which the country simply cannot afford. Er, Covid debts anyone?? Although Starmer may be lacking in the character department I would far rather have someone boring like him than a clown like BoJo or Truss. And Labour infighting just makes the country less stable and makes the risk of a Farrage government more likely (God forbid!). Labour should sit out their term, and watch Reform councils unravel and lose support (the unravelling has already started). |
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Fri 15 May 26 12:52
Todays Voting. - Andrew-T
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>> I don't understand what is going on at Labour. Do they not remember how the Tories were rightly hounded out of office for multiple leadership changes? >> Neither party seemed to remember that (as with many other things) it is fairly easy to get rid. The hard part is replacing with something better. |
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Fri 15 May 26 12:58
Todays Voting. - tyrednemotional
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Can't say I' much into posting personal statements about politicians, policies are somewhat different, but the following quote made me smile (I plead relevance due to the motoring connection ;-) ) "Wes Streeting has the demeanour of a man who would schmooze his way into the affections of an elderly couple before stitching them up on a lousy finance deal on a Renault Twingo and then bragging about it to the rest of the sales team." Other politicians are available. |
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Sat 16 May 26 10:44
Todays Voting. - CGNorwich
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| The really important voting today is of course the splendid song contest this evening. Get your bet on now on the UK entry Eins Zwie Drei at 250/1 . Absolute musical gem. |
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Sat 16 May 26 11:06
Todays Voting. - James Loveless
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I have no interest whatsoever in the garbage that masquerades under the label of the Eurovision Song Contest, but the pedant in me is awakened by CGN's post. The title of the entry in question should presumably be spelled Eins Zwei Drei - or at least, that's how it's spelled in German. |
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Sun 17 May 26 00:05
Todays Voting. - smokie
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>> The really important voting today is of course the splendid song contest this evening. Get >> your bet on now on the UK entry Eins Zwie Drei at 250/1 . Absolute >> musical gem. >> Loser :-) I don't usually watch it but I did tonight. It is a load of froth and nonsense but really quite harmless and clearly gives millions pleasure. I almost enjoyed parts!! :-) Last edited by: smokie on Sun 17 May 26 at 00:06
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Sun 17 May 26 09:21
Todays Voting. - bathtub tom
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| I get the impression it's purely for the LGBT brigade and wonder if it's time for the BBC to introduce a channel specifically for them and drag queens. That way I wouldn't be presented with them monopolising a disproportionate amount of my viewing. |
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Sun 17 May 26 09:27
Todays Voting. - PeterS
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| One has to wonder what exactly you’re watching, and how you manage to keep stumbling across it, if it’s consuming so much of your viewing ;) |
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Sun 17 May 26 11:34
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> >> >> I don't usually watch it but I did tonight. It is a load of froth >> and nonsense but really quite harmless and clearly gives millions pleasure. I almost enjoyed parts!! >> :-) >> I'd rather count the cornflakes in a family sized box of Kellogs. |
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Sun 17 May 26 12:53
Todays Voting. - Dog
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---->> I'd rather count the cornflakes in a family sized box of Kellogs. I'm with ^this geezer. |
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Sun 17 May 26 14:34
Todays Voting. - PeterS
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>> ---->> I'd rather count the cornflakes in a family sized box of Kellogs. >> >> I'm with ^this geezer. >> And the great thing about living in a free country is that you are both free to do that if you prefer. Although, I wouldn’t necessarily mention it in a social setting ;) |
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Sun 17 May 26 13:33
Todays Voting. - CGNorwich
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| It’s a bit of fun, completely over the top outfits, naff music , fantastic lighting and effects, crazy voting , what’s not to like? Roll on next year in Bulgaria |
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Sun 17 May 26 16:52
Todays Voting. - Robin O'Reliant
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>> completely over the top outfits, naff music , fantastic lighting >> and effects, crazy voting , what’s not to like? >> All of the above. |
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Sat 16 May 26 15:14
Todays Voting. - ChrisM
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Has anyone seen a figure quoted for how much the by-election will cost the taxpayer? And, of course, the election of a new mayor should Burnham be successful? I assume he doesn't need to resign as mayor first. And all because there's no suitable (left leaning) candidate amongst the existing 403 MPs. |
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Sat 16 May 26 15:30
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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Democracy costs what it costs. Although they shouldn't be ditching SKS anyway. But if they are going to bin him, Burnham is probably the best option. The real villain here is the campaign to rubbish Starmer that started even before parliament was back in session after the election. The fact is we have a serious PM who is well regarded abroad and kept us out of a war that Farage ridiculed him for not jumping into. I don't recall him being mocked for the U turn he made on that only days later. |
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Sat 16 May 26 15:33
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Has anyone seen a figure quoted for how much the by-election will cost the taxpayer? >> And, of course, the election of a new mayor should Burnham be successful? I assume >> he doesn't need to resign as mayor first. He doesn't need to resign as Mayor to stand. If he's elected to Parliament his Mayoralty is forfeited and an election will be held. I think the lack of other viable candidates is a bit more than a left/right issue. Of 400+ Labour MPs well north of half were only elected in 2024 and haven't the track record/experience to be party Leader or MP. The need for 81 nominations, set to raise the bar after the Corbyn farrago ten years ago has proved way too high. Streeting is said to have the numbers committed but not with a large margin in hand. Of those he has a number are on the government payroll. Even if they don't have to stand down the loyalty question will be writ large; position probably untenable. Of the others like Miliband, Rayner etc their chances against each other, or Starmer, in a vote of the Membership look like producing poor outcomes. In some permutations the worst of all results; Starmer stays. I think Burnham, who has a record in Cabinet under Blair/Brown and has reportedly acheived, or at least catalysed, very good things in Manchester. Although we seem to think he's left now he's been a bit of a Chameleon in that respect. |
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Sat 16 May 26 15:52
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>>The need for 81 nominations, set to raise the bar after the Corbyn farrago ten years ago has proved way too high Depends on one's point of view. If they haven't a single candidate they can get 20% to declare for then they shouldn't be doing it IMO. As you imply it's possible, even likely, the members will choose someone unelectable. I didn't think Burnham was quite there when he went to be mayor of Manchester but he will certainly have polished (burnished?) his political skills and looks like a plausible finished article to me and well capable of exposing Farage in debate and putting the other snoozers in the shade. It will be democratic but imperfect. There will be a lot of tactical voting because of factional dislikes. |
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Sat 16 May 26 16:13
Todays Voting. - ChrisM
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This by-election isn't being called because the current MP has died or is in poor health, it's because he wants Starmer out badly enough to step aside to let his favoured successor get a chance to be PM*. It's Labour Party rules (good or bad) that have got us here. * Subject to Reform not scuppering the plan. |
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Sat 16 May 26 17:15
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> This by-election isn't being called because the current MP has died or is in poor >> health, it's because he wants Starmer out badly enough to step aside to let his >> favoured successor get a chance to be PM* I don't think he acted alone!! There's been a desperate chase for a Labour MP in Greater Manchester to stand aside over several months. One such was the guy who stood down for 'poor health' and let Hannah Spencer in. Bet Starmer wishes he'd not vetoed Burnham then!! The political problem is much wider than Labour. We need to adapt our entire political system for one that can work in an era of SM and (unregulated) 24 hour rolling news. |
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Sat 16 May 26 17:53
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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One problem is that anybody with resources can marshal SM using bots (or the algorithm if you are Musk) to build up or knock down any politician almost completely and to push whatever fake truths suit the case. It's beyond doubt for me that Reform will be using Harborne money this way. Things could likely be damped quite a lot by some sort of PR. Apart from anything else, FPTP is much easier to manipulate and to screw by tactical voting. Whilst Starmer has definitely suffered from a confected smear campaign the Labour PLP has behaved in a very stupid way. Motivated, I'm sure many of them would say, by concern for election prospects 3 years away but is largely the old factionalism. |
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Sat 16 May 26 20:07
Todays Voting. - Terry
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Were the vote in the by election to reflect recent local elections Reform would win comfortably with an estimated 50% of the vote vs Labour 27%. Both parties will throw all at their disposal at the contest - selective statistics, questionable promises, innuendo etc etc. It is entirely possible Labour will lose and Reform gain another MP. What then happens to a leadership contest. Does Streeting force a contest. What about other possible candidates. Will Starmer carry on (until the next major embarrassment?) It's a show over which we have no control and could last 3+ months whilst the country suffers the consequences of a leadership vacuum. What fun! |
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Sun 17 May 26 09:26
Todays Voting. - Falkirk Bairn
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Lots of Tactical Voting in the By-Election My enemy's enemy is my Friend! |
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Tue 19 May 26 11:11
Todays Voting. - R.P.
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| Good result in Wales with the Senedd election. Plaid Cymru won by a better margin than predicted. Hopefully the 16+ want hope over fear |
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Tue 19 May 26 11:34
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Good result in Wales with the Senedd election. Plaid Cymru won by a better margin >> than predicted. Hopefully the 16+ want hope over fear Daughter, who is down the road from you in Connah's Quay. was pleased with that too. Bit og head scratching over how to vote against Refuk - tactically if necessary. |
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Tue 19 May 26 21:00
Todays Voting. - Zero
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>> Hopefully the 16+ want hope over fear Nah, just sex, drugs and |
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Tue 19 May 26 11:33
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> What then happens to a leadership contest. Does Streeting force a contest. What about other >> possible candidates. Will Starmer carry on (until the next major embarrassment?) If Burnham doesn't win then, assuming he's got the 81 backers needed, Streeting will have to challenge I think. Though, depending on who else's hat is in the ring, he might well lose. Possibly even to KS!! |
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Tue 19 May 26 15:08
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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Most Labour members think SKS is doing a good job. But a majority would vote for Burnham if he could stand. Streeting is not popular and SKS would beat him in a 2 horse race. I'm hoping Burnham will lose Makerfield because changing horses now would just make Labour look as in serious as the Tories. Say what you like about Labour and SKS, I think they are the least bad options for the time being. Starmer is right to keep going. |
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Tue 19 May 26 16:34
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> Most Labour members think SKS is doing a good job. Seems implausible - Labour vote share has fallen from 35% at the election to ~18% today. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement. >>But a majority would vote for Burnham if he could stand. I think them misguided - but that is how democracy works >> Streeting is not popular and SKS would beat him in a 2 horse race. But it may not be a 2 horse race - Rayner, Milliband, Mahmood etc. SKS is hardly popular within the party - there are over 80 MPs who have already made their views clear. >> I'm hoping Burnham will lose Makerfield because changing horses now would just make Labour look as in serious as the Tories. On that we agree!! >> Say what you like about Labour and SKS, I think they are the least bad >> options for the time being. Starmer is right to keep going. With a u-turn, gross misjudgement, or party policy rebellion at about one a month the only question how long to the next. Chances of SKS leading Labour to election victory in 2029 close to zero. Better Labour were decently lead than prop up the inadequate. |
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Tue 19 May 26 17:07
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Seems implausible - Labour vote share has fallen from 35% at the election to ~18% >> today. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement. Labour members, not the electorate as a whole. Streeting's not popular with paid up members as he's (a) to Blairite and (b) was too close to Mandy. |
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Tue 19 May 26 17:22
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> >> Most Labour members think SKS is doing a good job. >> >> Seems implausible - Labour vote share has fallen from 35% at the election to ~18% >> today. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement. It's true, from a survey of members (not voters). >> >> >>But a majority would vote for Burnham if he could stand. As above. >> >> >> Streeting is not popular and SKS would beat him in a 2 horse race. As above >> >> Say what you like about Labour and SKS, I think they are the least >> bad >> >> options for the time being. Starmer is right to keep going. >> >> With a u-turn, gross misjudgement, or party policy rebellion at about one a month the >> only question how long to the next. Chances of SKS leading Labour to election victory >> in 2029 close to zero. Better Labour were decently lead than prop up the inadequate. That's the thing, that's the Daily Mail version. The media and SM assault on Starmer started even before Parliament was back in session after the election. There is literally no pleasing the extremely hostile right wing media, it's the story they are pushing and they will find 'evidence' every week. We have to get better at countering it. I wouldn't disagree that the comms have been weak and the factionalism is utterly stupid, as ever, but less than 2 years into fixing a destructive 14 years things are stable and the trend, although weak, is mainly upwards. This is fact, not claptrap for the uneducated. He has kept us out of a disastrous war, we have relative stability and he is reasonably well regarded abroad. I wouldn't disagree either that we are still in the fertiliser as a nation but 14 years, remember? I tend to agree that it's a challenge to see SKS leading the party at the election but stranger things have happened although I expect a leadership change nearer the election. YouGov poll of 706 Labour members: Key takeaways Most Labour members think Wes Streeting was wrong to resign as health secretary (57%) and would rather Starmer beat Streeting in a leadership challenge by 65% to 15% Nearly half of members (47%) rank Andy Burnham as their first preference for Labour leadership, compared to 31% for Starmer. 59% rank Burnham above Starmer in their preferences for leader While 66% of party members believe Starmer has done a good job as prime minister, just 28% think Labour are likely to win in 2029 if he stays leader, and 61% want him to stand down before the next general election 80% of Labour members say the party has done a good job in government yougov.com/en-gb/articles/54797-what-do-labour-members-think-of-the-party-leadership-may-2026 |
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Tue 19 May 26 18:31
Todays Voting. - Terry
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Labour party membership is estimated at ~330k. Assuming the YouGov poll was a representative sample of members your comments are fair. Only party members and MPs get to chose who leads the party. They represent only ~4% of the 9.7m who voted Labour, and ~1% of the 28.8m who voted for all parties in 2024. At the next election in 2029 the views of the wider electorate will determine the outcome, not an inward looking Labour Party survey. But as Harold Wilson observed "a week is a long time in politics". In 3 years the opinion of the party and country may be in harmony, and willingly vote Labour a further term to finish the good work now started. Seems unlikely to me ........... |
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Tue 19 May 26 21:01
Todays Voting. - Zero
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Labour party members are not representative of the electorate and what they want. Neither is the Tory party members, they just want access to the conservative club and the golf club.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 19 May 26 at 21:02
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Tue 19 May 26 21:30
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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There are about 125,000 members of the Conservative party. Rather fewer than Labour. Of course they aren't representative of the country. They are presumably mostly Conservative voters, and the same for Labour mutatis mutandis (that's for Bromptonaut). |
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Tue 19 May 26 21:44
Todays Voting. - PeterS
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| Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua :) |
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Tue 19 May 26 21:52
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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The PM has got himself into a real mess here, he's on hold for the next few weeks until his possible replacements get themselves lined up in accordance with the parties rules. Looks like he is treading water until his replacement is in place, he can't stay long term his polling is awful one of the worst since polling began. It doesn't help he doesn't really do politics, he seems to have no political base, no sense of what the party wants, no real ideas for the country, isn't really a communicator. I'm sure he's reasonably bright but on one hand it's worrying he's got this far. Not the only one of course. |
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Tue 19 May 26 23:09
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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He can ignore his polling, he still has a thumping majority. The Conservatives got no credit for changing Prime Ministers like underwear and neither would Labour. The second a new one takes over over, Badenough, Farage and the Daily Hitler will.demand a GE because they "have no mandate". |
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Wed 20 May 26 07:38
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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In theory that's right, however once the herd moves it moves. His majority isn't much use as most of the backbenchers don't appear to like him. |
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Wed 20 May 26 09:36
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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I don't know the numbers but he has a lot of support and no real difficulty getting legislation through. Nobody has seriously suggested a confidence vote as far as I know probably because he would win it. He's a good PM objectively. If not why not? Since mid 2024 40% of the asylum hotels have closed and net inward migration is down. That was supposedly the priority issue for the Conservatives who faffed with unrealistic plans to ship people off to Africa, all pure performative carp. There's a reason Farage isn't ranting about that. I won't celebrate the highest growth in the G7 because nobody is breaking any pots and the difference could be rounding but Farage is fairly quiet on that one too. 14 years it took to get us to this state. What irritates me is the Labour MPs jumping on the bandwagon. |
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Wed 20 May 26 10:55
Todays Voting. - PeterS
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It would be fairer to say that he’s had no problem getting his MPs on board with legislation that involves spending money, but there was a fairly public climbdown on benefits reform ;) A good PM needs a vision that they can clearly communicated, and the ability to drive change. I would say the jury is very much out on whether he can do either. He is clearly a good administrator though. On the growth front, Q1 GDP growth was 0.6%, but as public spending grew 1.4% year on year for the same period and public spending is around 40% of GDP that doesn’t seem like real growth, or sustainable growth. I’m pretty sure governments can’t keep growing the economy by spending more money without some sort of crisis happening! |
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Wed 20 May 26 11:51
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>>I'm pretty sure governments can't keep growing the economy by spending more money without some sort of crisis happening! Spending vs. investment? Government spending has long been a popular way of trying to get out of a slump. FDR's New Deal, post war reconstruction in general, the Chinese reaction to the financial crisis, and more recently post-pandemic money printing. Of course all drugs have side effects. A massive opportunity was missed in that long period of almost zero interest rates when government could have borrowed cheaply to renationalise utilities, build high speed internet and fix the infrastructure. Instead we had austerity and 14 lost years. |
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Wed 20 May 26 18:52
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> A massive opportunity was missed in that long period of almost zero interest rates when >> government could have borrowed cheaply to renationalise utilities, build high speed internet and fix the >> infrastructure. Instead we had austerity and 14 lost years. >> Evidence of the woeful inability of government to manage large scale projects - HS2 costs just increased again - over 3 times original budget, delayed a decade ++, just 40% of the original track length now planned. initiated by Labour, perpetuated by Tories, Labour incapable of now stopping the rot. Some privatised utilities (particularly water) have failed due to poor regulation - a government responsibility. Investments made over the last 20+ years should now be generating a surplus for reinvestment - the reality is that any savings that may have flowed are being spent on something else. Borrowing money even at low interest rates still has to be repaid. A sort of political "man maths"!! |
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Wed 20 May 26 11:06
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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>> I don't know the numbers but he has a lot of support and no real >> difficulty getting legislation through. >> >> Nobody has seriously suggested a confidence vote as far as I know probably because he >> would win it. >> >> He's a good PM objectively. If not why not? >> I listed them above. I'm sure he's well meaning but looks completely out of depth. Like the dog that caught the car. |
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Wed 20 May 26 18:36
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> I don't know the numbers but he has a lot of support and no real >> difficulty getting legislation through. Welfare reforms, farm ingeritance tax, business rates for pubs, winter fuel allowance, digital ID, two child benefit cap. Either as a result of back bench pressure, or wider feedback. >> Nobody has seriously suggested a confidence vote as far as I know probably because he >> would win it. A confidence vote by who - his party or parliament. The party just need a challenger with enough signed up support. The parliamentary majority makes a confidence vote implausible. >> He's a good PM objectively. If not why not? To decsribe him as very average would, IMHO, be generous. >> Since mid 2024 40% of the asylum hotels have closed Somewhat selective - the use of HMOs, other rented accomodation, large scale dispersal centres have increased. At December 2025 107,000 (July 2024 - 101,000) had accomodation support. Probably saved some money by using cheaper accomodation. >> and net inward migration is down. Total or illegal?? The initiatives - smash the gangs, one in one out, disrupting boat and motor supplies, paying French plod - seem a triumph of noise over effective action. >> I won't celebrate the highest growth in the G7 because nobody is breaking any pots >> and the difference could be rounding but Farage is fairly quiet on that one too. One quarter in isolation is very selective - may be the harbinger of better things to come or an anomaly. Cumulative GDP growth since July 2024 - the UK slips to 5th place. |
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Thu 21 May 26 10:02
Todays Voting. - car4play
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>> and net inward migration is down. Most migration is legal. One comes over illegally and then family reunion brings wife and kids legally who then rely on welfare. Also there has been a large exodus of highly-taxed individuals who are being replaced by the above, so to say net inward migration is down (but still large) isn't the win Manatee thinks it is. |
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Thu 21 May 26 14:20
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>>so to say net inward migration is down (but still large) isn't the win Manatee thinks it is. No it's just a fact. I don't know who the outbound migrants are. I know several people in my age group who have moved to Spain, and in one case Thailand IIRC, in retirement which is an alternative explanation. They aren't the super rich, they are boomers with a bit of wool on their backs. It makes little sense for properly rich people to flee for tax purposes when they can afford to live where they want and I'm not convinced that they do that by the 100's of 000's. If people choose to emigrate for tax reasons, so be it. They can beggar off and good riddance, we'll keep the decent ones. |
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Thu 21 May 26 15:28
Todays Voting. - Biggles aka B_i_G
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| Studies show that if a wealth tax were to be introduced, as at least Streeting is proposing, this would lead to a net decrease in tax revenues as the people affected would leave the country. |
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Thu 21 May 26 15:37
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Studies show that if a wealth tax were to be introduced, as at least Streeting >> is proposing, this would lead to a net decrease in tax revenues as the people >> affected would leave the country. Can you point us to the location of these studies and the organisation that funded them? |
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Thu 21 May 26 15:56
Todays Voting. - Biggles aka B_i_G
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As reported by the FT: www.ft.com/content/964d71f2-50c6-4c0b-b662-4fce0384f26b?syn-25a6b1a6=1 It comes from the IFS. Use your favourite site for avoiding the paywall. |
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Thu 21 May 26 16:01
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> As reported by the FT: >> www.ft.com/content/964d71f2-50c6-4c0b-b662-4fce0384f26b?syn-25a6b1a6=1 >> It comes from the IFS. Use your favourite site for avoiding the paywall. That piece is about an annual wealth tax. Is that what Streeting is proposing? |
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Thu 21 May 26 17:04
Todays Voting. - Biggles aka B_i_G
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It certainly looks that way. www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/21/wes-streeting-tax-income-capital-gains-wealth-labour-leadership |
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Thu 21 May 26 17:46
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> It certainly looks that way. >> www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/21/wes-streeting-tax-income-capital-gains-wealth-labour-leadership I'm seeing Streeting proposing treating Capital Gains similarly to income. That closes the door on (eg) Sunak taking capital, taxed at a much lower level than income from work, for living on. Different to charging an annual levy on capital held. |
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Thu 21 May 26 18:09
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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>> >> I don't know who the outbound migrants are. I know several people in my age >> group who have moved to Spain, and in one case Thailand IIRC, in retirement which >> is an alternative explanation. They aren't the super rich, they are boomers with a bit >> of wool on their backs. It makes little sense for properly rich people to flee >> for tax purposes when they can afford to live where they want and I'm not >> convinced that they do that by the 100's of 000's. >> >> If people choose to emigrate for tax reasons, so be it. They can beggar off >> and good riddance, we'll keep the decent ones. >> I believe 2/3 are 18-34 year olds, that's British nationals. |
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Thu 21 May 26 20:34
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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>> >> >> >> >> I don't know who the outbound migrants are. >> I believe 2/3 are 18-34 year olds, that's British nationals. So they are not the wealthy fleeing the country to avoid tax. |
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Thu 21 May 26 21:45
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't know who the outbound migrants are. >> >> >> >> I believe 2/3 are 18-34 year olds, that's British nationals. >> >> So they are not the wealthy fleeing the country to avoid tax. >> I wouldn't have thought so no. Still not great if the young workers think it's not worth staying here, I guess the reasons are varied, but still the young heading for the door isn't great. |
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Thu 21 May 26 22:08
Todays Voting. - tyrednemotional
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>> ..... but still the young heading for the door isn't great. >> ....Always have, always will (latest ONS statistics indicate the situation has been pretty stable over the years, though I suspect Brexit might have changed their ultimate destination). |
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Fri 22 May 26 08:17
Todays Voting. - sooty123
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>> >> >> ..... but still the young heading for the door isn't great. >> >> >> >> ....Always have, always will (latest ONS statistics indicate the situation has been pretty stable over >> the years, though I suspect Brexit might have changed their ultimate destination). >> I can't say I've looked at the ONS, is that about 'normal'? |
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Fri 22 May 26 12:48
Todays Voting. - tyrednemotional
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>> >> I can't say I've looked at the ONS, is that about 'normal'? >> I think one would say "nuanced", but it does make interesting reading. tinyurl.com/YouthMigration |
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Thu 21 May 26 23:41
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> I don't know who the outbound migrants are. >> >> >> I believe 2/3 are 18-34 year olds, that's British nationals. >> >> So they are not the wealthy fleeing the country to avoid tax. The 18-34 year olds leaving the country are those with energy, ambition, training, qualifications etc. The very folk the country needs to build a sustainable prosperous future. They leave behind many whose their principal "quality" is a sense of entitlement, not responsibility and self reliance. The number of UK based very wealthy is also falling - possibly attracted by better weather elsewhere. More likely concerned with removal of non-dom benefits, possible wealth taxes, inheritance tax on worldwide assets, increased taxes and burdensome business regulation. The UK will be poorer for their loss - not just their capacity to invest in UK based businesses but all the employment they created - eveerything from gardening to fine dining. However much some may resent their wealth, the UK is far better off with them. |
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Fri 22 May 26 09:19
Todays Voting. - Manatee
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You're making up your own explanations here Terry. Maybe the 18-34 year olds includes a lot of students. I have no idea. Is it true that the number of very wealthy is falling? Or are they just getting better at hiding it. I don't resent their wealth, I resent people who do not pay their share and the mugs tugging their forelocks. I don't understand people on PAYE and pensions defending tax dodging super-rich who probably pay lower average rates of tax then they do, and then voting for the political party financed by those same wealth hoarders to preserve the status quo. The immigration figures are out now. The fall in net migration in 2025 does seem to be mainly due to lower arrivals rather than emigration if I read the first chart correctly. And whilst small boat arrivals went up in 2025 the 2026 trend seems to be down. It's a mess regardless and the wreckers and racists who have made this a big issue just get in the way of sensible policy. We are apparently short of 100,000 care workers. www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgzjpd1jjgt |
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Thu 21 May 26 23:55
Todays Voting. - Terry
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>> If people choose to emigrate for tax reasons, so be it. They can beggar off >> and good riddance, we'll keep the decent ones. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. UK tax income down increasing public sector borrowing. Jobs lost in providing goods and services to the wealthy. UK loses folk with money to invest in new businesses. Many of those leaving will be highly educated, ambitious, energetic, etc. You will keep those imbued with with an entitlement culture, lacking energy, lacking ambition, ill-educated etc etc. Completely complacent and bonkers (IMHO) |
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Thu 21 May 26 14:22
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> Most migration is legal. One comes over illegally and then family reunion brings wife and >> kids legally who then rely on welfare. Isn't Ms Mahmood moving the goalposts for family reunion where 'illegals' arriving on small boats are concerned? And for time needed in UK before those on work visas can apply for settlement. |
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Thu 21 May 26 10:08
Todays Voting. - Bromptonaut
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>> >> Since mid 2024 40% of the asylum hotels have closed >> >> Somewhat selective - the use of HMOs, other rented accomodation, large scale dispersal centres have >> increased. At December 2025 107,000 (July 2024 - 101,000) had accomodation support. Probably saved some >> money by using cheaper accomodation. While the move from hotels to HMOs is, to some extent, a deck chairs/Titanic move the hotels were deeply unpopular and very newsworthy. There is a growing move from people living with HMOs on their street to get people moved on. The number of 'illegals' arriving by boat is well down on last year. Initially that was said to be down the weather but we're now seeing 'red' days where crossings in number might be expected without expections being met. That's said to be down to work done with EU countries including Belgium and Germany to catch people further upstream and to disrupt the supply of boats and outboards. |
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Fri 22 May 26 08:59
Todays Voting. - smokie
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I think I read yesterday somewhere that the large majority of immigrants aren't the ones who excite the general public so much, i.e. on boats etc, but are student visas. Whether they are all legit students is, I suppose, another question... Re youngsters leaving the country... 1) it's not all of them and 2) while I am not vastly knowledgeable on it, I do know a number of European countries either have or are introducing quite a high level of earnings requirement to enable someone to reside there. |
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