Non-motoring > Rayner 'stands down'.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: bathtub tom	Replies: 39

Fri 5 Sep 25 12:21   Rayner 'stands down'. - bathtub tom

One less snout in the trough! Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 12:26   Rayner 'stands down'. - Dog

But another snout to join it. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 12:27   Rayner 'stands down'. - James Loveless

An example of crass stupidity if nothing else. She should have known the press would be all over her and any "mis-step" ruthlessly exposed. It's "fewer", not "less", by the way. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 12:37   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

Seems the 'advice' she relied on was caveated as non expert and stated that expert advice should be sought. She didn't and thus breached the ministerial code. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 13:07   Rayner 'stands down'. - CGNorwich

I quite like here. Disagree with many of her views but she made it to the top by her own efforts and says what she thinks. Don’t think her political career is over. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 13:08   Rayner 'stands down'. - maltrap

As she successfully sued the NHS perhaps she should do the same to the people she alleges gave her “advice”. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 13:15   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> As she successfully sued the NHS perhaps she should do the same to the people >> she alleges gave her “advice”. The problem is the people giving that advice twice caveated it as not expert and it came with a recommendation she sought such advice. She didn't. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 13:34   Rayner 'stands down'. - Biggles aka B_i_G

What about the high valuation she put on her share of the property which she 'sold' to her child's trust fund? That seems somewhat underhand too. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:01   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> What about the high valuation she put on her share of the property which she >> 'sold' to her child's trust fund? That seems somewhat underhand too. How do we know it was overvalued? It was only last week that the media were implying it was undervalued so as to limbo under the point at which IHT would have been payable on transfer. Is there actual evidence beyond 'prices in the same street' Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:12   Rayner 'stands down'. - bathtub tom

>> What about the high valuation she put on her share of the property which she >> 'sold' to her child's trust fund? That seems somewhat underhand too. There seems to be much more about this. 1. Who issued the alleged injunction that stopped her from discussing her tax affairs? 2. The alleged over valuation of the Ashton-under-lyme property. 3. Selling a quarter stake in the Ashton-under-lyme property to the trust. Who are the trustees? I suspect the Tory press will try to answer these and other questions, until Hislop makes the most of it in a few weeks (HIGNFY). Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:21   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> 1. Who issued the alleged injunction that stopped her from discussing her tax affairs? >> 2. The alleged over valuation of the Ashton-under-lyme property. >> 3. Selling a quarter stake in the Ashton-under-lyme property to the trust. Who are the >> trustees? Was there an injunction or just the usual confidentiality around provision for children including a son who will likely be 'a person under disability' as and adult. Let's see the evidence that the property in Ashton-under-Lyne was actually undervalued. I'd be pretty sure there would have been a proper valuation by a Surveyor. I assume the trustees are there to protect the interest of the Trust's beneficiaries. Is there any evidence beyond Tory tittle/tattle of some sort of malfeasance? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 13:45   Rayner 'stands down'. - smokie

Yes I didn't mind her too. The NHS paid compo for a botch which resulted in her child having lifelong disabilities. I don't see that as inappropriate. It seems the tax situation did become slightly complex as a result of her selling the property to the child's trust. She failed to take the right advice apparently. How was she to know she needed specialist advice than she'd been given? My understanding was that it was sold to the trust fund to assure the child's future, given the parents were divorcing (or divorced) I do get that could be seen as somewhat naive but I don't really think it's that earth shattering a story and I believe she'll be back, if she isn't sick of the press and the public making mountains of molehills. Last edited by: smokie on Fri 5 Sep 25 at 13:46 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:08   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> It seems the tax situation did become slightly complex as a result of her selling >> the property to the child's trust. She failed to take the right advice apparently. How >> was she to know she needed specialist advice than she'd been given? My understanding was >> that it was sold to the trust fund to assure the child's future, given the >> parents were divorcing (or divorced) I'm broadly supportive of Labour although I resigned membership under Blair and aging under Starmer over rightward drift. I'm waiting to see what the Sultana/Corbyn* party looks like when it's actually going. I certainly admire Rayner for what she's achieved and for her straight talking. What did for her was taking advice that was clearly caveated as non expert with a recommendation expert advice was taken without actually seeking that advice. As Laurie Magnus points out had she done so it's highly likely she would have been told the higher Stamp Duty was appropriate. *Yes, I've heard the fruit and nut joke and allowed myself a wry grin. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:27   Rayner 'stands down'. - Fullchat

She always looked for opportunities to pour nasty,vocal and vociferous disdain on the previous government when given any opportunity. Reap what you sow. Just one thing to say: Bye. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:30   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> She always looked for opportunities to pour nasty,vocal and vociferous disdain on the previous government >> when given any opportunity. Disdain they heartily deserved. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 14:56   Rayner 'stands down'. - Zero

Alas if governments /opposition spent less time thinking up and pouring nasty and vociferous disdain on one another, and more time working for those who voted for them (even those in opposition had some voter support) and for the greater good of the country, we the electorate might have more respect for them. As it stands, most of us (me more than most) have zero respect for any of them. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 15:57   Rayner 'stands down'. - Terry

Being slightly right of centre there are few policies espoused by AR with which I would agree. However her commitment to that in which she believed is worthy of respect and I regret her resignation. That other party leaders appear to revel in her discomfort does nothiing but reinforce ones contempt for politicians and the political process generally. That she failed to take proper tax advice despite being told to do so is an error. I do not belive there was any intent to defraud - but as a very senior politician exposed to detailed public and press scrutiny she should know better. Starmer may see this as an opportunity to shuffle the deck chairs in the hope that a better second year will follow a fairly woeful first. I suspect she will be back in a year or two as she is likely to be an asset to the Labour party at the polls. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Fri 5 Sep 25 18:31   Rayner 'stands down'. - Kevin

>It seems the tax situation did become slightly complex as a result of her selling the property >to the child's trust. She failed to take the right advice apparently. How was she to know she >needed specialist advice than she'd been given? HMRC website guidance about SDLT has numerous links to this info. www.gov.uk/guidance/stamp-duty-land-tax-buying-an-additional-residential-property What property the higher rates apply to .. Include any residential property that: is owned on behalf of children under the age of 18 (parents are treated as the owners even if the property is held through a trust and they are not the trustees) you have an interest in as the beneficiary of a trust Include your current home, if you still own it at the end of the day you buy your new home. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 19:22   Rayner 'stands down'. - sooty123

Seems the usual ministerial waffle before they resign. Blame it on the advice, I don't think her situation is that odd in that it would a deep dive. Its on hmrc site, I'm sure she knows how to use a computer. The selling of her part of the house to the trust seems odd as well. I'm not sure it was in the best interest of the son, i can see how it was in her favour though. I don't particularly like or dislike her, some of the stick she came in for was harsh to say the least though. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 20:24   Rayner 'stands down'. - John F

>> The NHS paid compo for a botch which resulted in her child having lifelong disabilities. >> I don't see that as inappropriate. I'd like to know details of the 'botch', how much the hospital had to pay in 'compensation' and how much was swallowed by the disease of adversarial legalosis that is crippling our country. Not so long ago the expulsion of a 23 week foetus would have been called a late miscarriage (approx 1 in 6 pregnancies miscarry). It's only because of the amazing capabilities of today's NHS that such immature pregancies sometimes survive, but so often severely handicapped needing indefinite expensive attention and having a devastating effect on any existing family life. I well remember a similar case case 50yrs ago on the neonatal ward where the distraught father sidled up to me and pleaded 'don't try too hard, doctor'. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 5 Sep 25 20:46   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> >> >> The NHS paid compo for a botch which resulted in her child having lifelong >> disabilities. >> >> I don't see that as inappropriate. >> >> I'd like to know details of the 'botch', how much the hospital had to pay >> in 'compensation' and how much was swallowed by the disease of adversarial legalosis that is >> crippling our country. No argument about the crippling costs of litigation; we need/deserve better. Less clear about why botch and compensation need what I perceive as pejorative quotes. Do you think the costs of lifetime care are overstated? Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 11:22   Rayner 'stands down'. - maltrap

I,m sure she will receive a very generous pension plus lots of other perks. I hope the “currant bun” is monitoring and reporting on all of this. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 11:55   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> I,m sure she will receive a very generous pension plus lots of other perks. >> I hope the “currant bun” is monitoring and reporting on all of this. She'll lose a huge chunk of her income as she'll be back to her MP salary. While that's not an insignificant amount it's a lot less than a front bench Minister. I also think the fact that she breached the Ministerial code means she loses an severance. She won't get Parliamentary Pension until State Pension age. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 13:08   Rayner 'stands down'. - Kevin

>She'll lose a huge chunk of her income as she'll be back to her MP salary. While that's not an insignificant amount >it's a lot less than a front bench Minister. I also think the fact that she breached the Ministerial code means >she loses an severance. She might have to sell the yacht. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 14:32   Rayner 'stands down'. - tyrednemotional

>> >> She might have to sell the yacht. >> She can't - it's in a trust .. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 6 Sep 25 11:54   Rayner 'stands down'. - James Loveless

Those who are attempting to defend Rayner by saying what she's really like, or how the legal advice she received (or not) affected what she did, or bringing up other stuff, like the case against the NHS, miss the central point. She was a harsh critic of the Tory government's sleaze, which automatically signals a claim to the moral high ground. Now her own actions don't look squeaky-clean the press have been all over the story, unsurprisingly. It is a question of perception. The issue is of perceived hypocrisy. It makes no difference whether her criticism of the Tories was justified. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 14:03   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> She was a harsh critic of the Tory government's sleaze, which automatically signals a claim >> to the moral high ground. Now her own actions don't look squeaky-clean the press have >> been all over the story, unsurprisingly. It is a question of perception. >> >> The issue is of perceived hypocrisy. It makes no difference whether her criticism of the >> Tories was justified. She was a harsh critic of sleaze and chicanery (see Zahawi) and rightly so. Her sin on the flat thing was carelessness. While putting your home in trust for your minor children doesn't get you out of higher rate stamp duty there are different rules where Mental Incapacity is in play as is likely to be the case for the child suffering injuries at birth. I suspect the person providing advice thought that applied but the 'see an expert' caveat means it was outside their experience. The perception of hypocrisy is real but IMHO not justified. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 19:00   Rayner 'stands down'. - Kevin

>Her sin on the flat thing was carelessness. While putting your home in trust for your minor >children doesn't get you out of higher rate stamp duty there are different rules where Mental >Incapacity is in play as is likely to be the case for the child suffering injuries at birth. I suspect >the person providing advice thought that applied but the 'see an expert' caveat means it was >outside their experience. The Mental Capacity Act applicable to trusts for the purposes of SDLT sets a very, very high bar for mental incapacity, presumably to protect the individual from unscrupulous carers. Her son is currently enrolled at college so I doubt that he would meet the requirements. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/9/contents Also, if her son's disability is in fact a mental condition I find it difficult to believe that the level of her son's disability was not addressed during her compensation claim against the NHS and was left ambiguous. Personally, I'm having a hard time with the careless, naive, working class mother story. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 6 Sep 25 21:07   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> The Mental Capacity Act applicable to trusts for the purposes of SDLT sets a very, >> very high bar for mental incapacity, presumably to protect the individual from unscrupulous carers. Can you point me to which section of the MCA sets that bar? If the son's compensation claim addressed the level of disability that's about what's paid; capacity to make decisions down the road is a different question College need be no more than learning life skills. No recent specific (ie individual) experience. However I do help people try to dovetail that with Work Related Requirements in Universal Credit with young adults who cannot do much for themselves. Careless and working class is given; naive is not what's pleaded. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 7 Sep 25 00:45   Rayner 'stands down'. - Kevin

You postulated that the likely reason for her being told to seek expert advice was her son's mental capacity. > there are different rules where Mental Incapacity is in play as is likely > to be the case for the child suffering injuries at birth. I suspect the > person providing advice thought that applied but the 'see an expert' > caveat means it was outside their experience. The MCA begins .. (2)A person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that he lacks capacity. (3)A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision unless all practicable steps to help him to do so have been taken without success. (4)A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because he makes an unwise decision. It has been reported that he is partially sighted and has some learning difficulties but there has been nothing that would support your speculation that his disability was the reason for her referral. In fact, considering that there's been no mention of confusion over, or a belief that she was entitled to, the exemption afforded by the MCA then it appears that his mental capacity is not even in question. >If the son's compensation claim.. Her son's compensation claim will/should have taken into account all his care requirements both current and future and that includes any likelihood of mental capacity issues. >College need be no more than learning life skills... Learning life skills is still valid education for someone who may have struggled with disability. It does not mean that they are somehow mentally incapable. I've worked with some world leaders in scientific fields who would benefit from life skills. >Careless and working class is given; naive is not what's pleaded. Neither is it what I said has been "pleaded". And I don't believe it was carelessness. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 8 Sep 25 06:31   Rayner 'stands down'. - Duncan

>> >> >> The perception of hypocrisy is real but IMHO not justified. >> On the contrary. It is totally justified. She was strident when condemning the Tories for perceived sleaze. And now the biter is bitten - or the dogs have turned on her, or something. (other well known phrases, cliches and sayings are available, insert them where you think appropriate.) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 6 Sep 25 14:18   Rayner 'stands down'. - Terry

>> She was a harsh critic of the Tory government's sleaze, which automatically signals a claim >> to the moral high ground. Now her own actions don't look squeaky-clean the press have >> been all over the story, unsurprisingly. It is a question of perception. >> >> The issue is of perceived hypocrisy. It makes no difference whether her criticism of the >> Tories was justified. Having spent years being (justifiably?) critical of Tory "sleaze", she needs to accept accountability for maintaining the very highest level of integrity in all her actions. "Hoist by her own petard" is a phrase which comes to mind - not strictly right but close enough. She failed on two counts - she ignored advice clearly given to seek professional advice, and failed to pay the right amount of stamp duty. I have no doubt she is extremely busy with limited knowledge of taxation. She usually has flunkies to do her legwork and limited time to surf the web for the right answers. She was content to accept what seemed superfically correct. Probably like most of us would be!!!! Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 6 Sep 25 18:57   Rayner 'stands down'. - smokie

"Probably like most of us would be!!!!" Exactly. However she has accepted accountability . and resigned. What more do we hope for? A few hours in the stocks maybe? As a generalisation the Tories took sleaze to a new level, and I'm essentially a Tory supporter. Her transgression was comparatively minor in comparison. E.G. a search for Baroness Mone returns zero results on this forum but she was just one of many. Here's a rather amusing LibDem view www.libdems.org.uk/news/adlib-articles/the-a-z-of-tory-sleaze-scandal Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 7 Sep 25 17:46   Rayner 'stands down'. - Fullchat

"She was a harsh critic of the Tory government's sleaze,....." Reveling and sneering at every opportunity. Reply to this message | Report message

Sun 7 Sep 25 17:56   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> Reveling and sneering at every opportunity. Your revelling and sneering is my rational and justified criticism. Such is politics. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 9 Sep 25 19:26   Rayner 'stands down'. - Manatee

To be fair they were a great deal sleazier and generally didn't resign either. Careless nonetheless. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 9 Sep 25 18:37   Rayner 'stands down'. - BiggerBadderDave

'Those who are attempting to defend Rayner by saying what she's really...' Shagable? I would (obvs). Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 9 Sep 25 19:30   Rayner 'stands down'. - Fullchat

Obvs :)) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 9 Sep 25 20:35   Rayner 'stands down'. - tyrednemotional

>> 'Those who are attempting to defend Rayner by saying what she's really...' >> >> Shagable? >> >> I would (obvs). >> Might create some confusion if you suggest going back to hers.... Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 9 Sep 25 at 20:38 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 9 Sep 25 22:07   Rayner 'stands down'. - Bromptonaut

>> 'Those who are attempting to defend Rayner by saying what she's really...' >> >> Shagable? >>I would (obvs) So would I. My son, not massively older than her youngest, expressed a similar view. Reply to this message | Report message