www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx24nppdx0lo
If they are ever caught that is.
And those in charge of security at Brize Norton need a good talking to as this seems to be too easy.
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This is very poor, and it's probably a good thing it has happened before somebody has gone in there with something more lethal than paint.
That said I think a determined special forces unit would have no bother getting in to a site that size and causing havoc if they really wanted to, or for that matter lobbing rockets at it from a distance.
Combatting this sort of thing is more about intelligence than trying to remove every vulnerability.
Yet another argument for identity tokens which should have been done years ago. All the harmless folk are being tracked anyway.
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This same group mounted an overnight attack on a local warehouse and delivery vehicles a few months ago. Their rationale such as it is, was that some items the company supplied were used incidentally by companies further along the supply chain who might be supplying Israel. These were common, commodities, not arms or security gear. They caused thousands of pounds worth of damage.
The perpetrators are hiding in plain sight with an online presence and attendant propaganda. They know how to cause maximum damage to property and vehicles. It’s not just a bit of paint, it’s targeted physical attacks on legitimate, peaceful businesses.
I see the government are probably going to take much tougher action now that they have attacked these aircraft. About time.
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>> I see the government are probably going to take much tougher action now that they
>> have attacked these aircraft. About time.
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn81g4e0nlyo
It's got to be considered sabotage / domestic terrorism.
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The site is part of our armed forces. That means anything from guns upwards. They can't complain if they get shot.
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I’ll complain because they didn’t.
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Hadn't realised until I read yesterdays' coverage how widespread and costly the damage done by this outfit was,
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>> Hadn't realised until I read yesterdays' coverage how widespread and costly the damage done by
>> this outfit was,
>>
Looking at the damage to the RAF Voyager jet, the fan blades are covered in paint.
About 10 years ago I did a lot of financial work with a company that leased parts to airlines. They had a box of compressor blades, smaller than those from a A320 / 737 sized aircraft.
Each blade cost as much as a car!
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In LL Land I’d bankrupt each & everyone of them to pay for the damage caused. And that includes forcibly selling their homes.
The lack of security is a worry…hopefully that issue has now been addressed .
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We know that nutters abound and do that which is unpleasant, stupid, illegal, unpatriotic, obsessive etc.
They exist on the extremes of the political spectrum and also include (for instance) Just Stop Oil. Animal Liberation Front. Extinction Rebellion.
They also include the more extreme ends of generally legitimate protest groups - Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament etc.
That they should be punished appropriately for their actions is reasonable.
But most criticism must be reserved for those who allowed so fundamental a security breach. We debate the future of NATO, European defence forces, increasing defence budgets etc, yet we are apparently incapable of securing defence critical assets against nutters with a can of spray paint.
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On reflection I think the protesters should be prosecuted for the minor crime of the damage they did. It was a peaceful protest and they are not terrorists.
They did the RAF a favour by exposing the insecurity of the base.
The hang em high hysteria is unwarranted.
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>>On reflection...
I understand your point of view, but why use paint when a banner wouldn't have done any damage?
I think that's a long shot, if found guilty. The two guys who climbed the Dartford Bridge got 3 years / 2 years 7 months.
Perhaps they should be made to pay for the damage?
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Expectation - easily fixed with a can of turps and a roll of kitchen paper.
Reality - a £10m+ bill for a new engine or major rebuild
Two questions - (a) s the damage being exaggerated for effect when it really is easily sorted, and (b) is it reasonable to expect the "idiots" to have carefully checked the consequences before pressing the spray button
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I chucked the sentencing guidelines at Google Gemini, and it knew the news about the case already. After a lot of the usual “it’s important to remember”, it reckoned from 3 to 7 years, and thought higher rather than lower.
Be interesting to see how accurate its guess was.
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Does anyone know, for sure, that the idiots did not throw a handful of small nuts and bolts into the engine?
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I don't think a long sentence is a particularly bad thing. Sets an example to the rest thinking of something similar. Look at JSO oil when they started handling out prison sentences in the years rather than a slap on the wrist. Plus it sends a message to the people funding these groups.
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>> Does anyone know, for sure, that the idiots did not throw a handful of small
>> nuts and bolts into the engine?
>>
They'll have been checked.
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>> Reality - a £10m+ bill for a new engine or major rebuild
Genuine question.
Do we know what actual damage was done by the paint?
Engines can come off and be replaced by others pretty much as a matter of routine. The 737 involved in a runway excursion at Leeds Bradford a couple of years ago was flown out again pretty smartly after replacement engines were fitted and other damage fettled.
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>> >> Reality - a £10m+ bill for a new engine or major rebuild
>>
>> Genuine question.
>>
>> Do we know what actual damage was done by the paint?
>>
As an educated guess, the engines will come off, be sent off to the engine rebuild facility, cleaned and checked as in a minor overhaul, and back in stock.
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>> As an educated guess, the engines will come off, be sent off to the engine
>> rebuild facility, cleaned and checked as in a minor overhaul, and back in stock.
That was my thought too. The blades are pretty tough, think bird strikes etc, and unless the paint contained a very aggressive additive it'll come off.
Some reports however refer to crowbars though whether they're used on engines, airframes or indeed at all isn't clear.
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>> >> Reality - a £10m+ bill for a new engine or major rebuild
>>
>> Genuine question.
>>
>> Do we know what actual damage was done by the paint?
Most of it is on the exhaust diffuser which is really just a lump of metal. An aggressive chemical like MEK will remove most of it.
Other that its the back end of the Low Pressure Turbine that has paint. Might have blocked cooling holes.
>> Engines can come off and be replaced by others pretty much as a matter of
>> routine.
There's not really that much to removing them. It's all the other stuff that takes the time.
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>> The hang em high hysteria is unwarranted.
Send them out to Ukraine, visit the bombed cities, the displaced citizens. Maybe they will realise why the RAF is there and needs to be ready.
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Sadly this and the last government have attempted to stifle protest and here perhaps are some unwanted consequences.
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About 30 people including an 83 years old retired priest have been arrested on terrorism charges for carrying placards with the words "I support Palestine Action".
This is just wrong. They are protesters, not terrorists.
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>> About 30 people including an 83 years old retired priest have been arrested on terrorism
>> charges for carrying placards with the words "I support Palestine Action".
>>
>> This is just wrong. They are protesters, not terrorists.
>>
They are supporting a group that caused £7m of damage to the UK's defences.
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>> They are supporting a group that caused £7m of damage to the UK's defences.
The damage done doesn't make them terrorists.
And that assumes you accept the 7million and I'm not sure I do.
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But you can't pick and chose what laws to obey.
Rightly or wrongly, that group is proscribed and showing support for them is illegal.
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>> But you can't pick and chose what laws to obey.
I agree; even if the damage was a fraction of the £7 million HMG claim there's plenty of scope for charges.
>> Rightly or wrongly, that group is proscribed and showing support for them is illegal.
Wrongly. That needs to be put right and if people go to gaol for that then so be it.
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“Wrongly. That needs to be put right and if people go to gaol for that then so be it.”
Their declared aim is to cause damage to the UK arms industry by direct action. That is a criminal activity.
Whoever they claim to support is irrelevant. Would you say the same if they claimed to support Russia , the USA or a Mexican drug cartel?
You cannot excuse crime by claiming some sort of moral justification. That way lies anarchy.
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>> Their declared aim is to cause damage to the UK arms industry by direct action.
>> That is a criminal activity.
Yes, but is it terrorism?
>> You cannot excuse crime by claiming some sort of moral justification. That way lies anarchy.
You can as a protest against injustice or inequality.
See Votes for Women as just one example.
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But is it terrorism?
Clearly yes if you look a the legal definition
The Terrorism Act 2000 defines terrorism, both in and outside of the UK, as the use or threat of one or more of the actions listed below, and where they are designed to influence the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.
The specific actions included are:
serious violence against a person;
serious damage to property;
endangering a person's life (other than that of the person committing the action);
creating a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public; and
action designed to seriously interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
“you cans as a protest against inequality”
No you can’t. It is not a legal defence against any crime. Key alone against terrorism
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Half of them probably couldn't even find Gaza on a map.
They want to play silly games, well they're about to win stupid prizes.
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>> Half of them probably couldn't even find Gaza on a map.
Even if you're right, and I suspect not, it doesn't justify what's going on there.
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Justifying what happens in the gaza is dependant on who's looking at it.
That to one side what happened at brize is irrelevant to the middle east. They can spray as much paint as they like, get sent to prison for years, have as many protests as they like, come up with as many conspiracy theories as they like. All completely pointless and will have absolutely no impact.
But the smarter ones now know that, they can just move onto the next trendy protest group . The rest are probably stupid enough to think their actions have any influence at all.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 7 Jul 25 at 08:23
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There is inevitably a grey area where legitimate protest becomes terrorist activity.
However based on the Terrorism Act definition their actions clearly fall into the latter camp:
- they caused material damage
- their intent was to influence government on a racial, religious, political matter
- they put the general public at material risk by seriously damaging defensive capability
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Going by this the Poll Tax protests would have fallen into point 2 and maybe point 1?
Any protest would be covered by point 2 - that's the point of them isn't it?
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I also looked at the definition and I think it's arguable, but what about the 30 or so protesters arrested the other day on terrorism charges for carrying placards with the words "I support Palestine Action", including an 83 year old retired priest?
Perhaps the placards should have said "I share the concerns of PA" (which is clearly what they meant) rather than "I support PA" - I very much doubt if they are suspected of harbouring or conspiring with the paint-sprayers.
One might also think PA have done the MoD a favour, by demonstrating how ridiculously easy it was to break in, ride about on electric scooters, spray their paint and get away undetected without actually setting any explosives which they could just as easily have done.
I'm sure it will have occurred now, if it hadn't before, to the MoD that a foreign power such as the one already believed to have conducted assassinations on British soil could just as easily have hired some bad people to break in and cause real damage with no way to establish or prove who was responsible.
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>> One might also think PA have done the MoD a favour, by demonstrating how ridiculously
>> easy it was to break in, ride about on electric scooters, spray their paint and
>> get away undetected without actually setting any explosives which they could just as easily have
>> done.
>>
>> I'm sure it will have occurred now, if it hadn't before, to the MoD that
>> a foreign power such as the one already believed to have conducted assassinations on British
>> soil could just as easily have hired some bad people to break in and cause
>> real damage with no way to establish or prove who was responsible.
>>
>>
This incident won't have told anyone in the MoD anything they didn't already know.
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>>
>> This incident won't have told anyone in the MoD anything they didn't already know.
Well you'd think so, wouldn't you?
Are you saying they knew it was horribly insecure?
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>>
>> >>
>> >> This incident won't have told anyone in the MoD anything they didn't already know.
>>
>>
>> Well you'd think so, wouldn't you?
>>
>> Are you saying they knew it was horribly insecure?
>>
I'm saying they knew the height of the fences, the length of bzn's perimeter and they've got eyes in their heads.
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“but what about the 30 or so protesters arrested the other day on terrorism charges for carrying placards with the words "I support Palestine Action", including an 83 year old retired priest?“
Yes what about them. They were demonstrating in support of a proscribed organisation which is a criminal offence. And when did age or religion become a defence?
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My point, obviously, is that it should not be an offence to say you agree with PA's views on Gaza. I think they probably shot themselves in the foot with their wording.
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I doubt it would make any difference changing the word on the placard but the fact is that she was clearly supporting a proscribed organisation and from
her actions that is what she intended to be doing and that is clearly a crime.
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>> I doubt it would make any difference changing the word on the placard but the
>> fact is that she was clearly supporting a proscribed organisation and from
>> her actions that is what she intended to be doing and that is clearly a
>> crime.
Sometimes, votes for women is a standout example, protestors need to cross a line into activity the state deems criminal.
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Actually it is a very poor example. The Women’s Suffrage movement was for the most part non violent and acted within the law. Acts of law braking and destruction of property were condemned by iits leaders and public reaction to such acts set back the movement considerably.
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>>
>> Sometimes, votes for women is a standout example, protestors need to cross a line into
>> activity the state deems criminal.
>>
Doesn't really make much sense as a comparison. Primarily because the people PA are trying to influence, assuming they are trying to influence anyone, have no power at all over the middle east. No one in this country does. There's only two people that can change what happens in gaza, the US president and the PM of Israel.
Everyone else's view are irrelevant. They could get the PM to make any statement and nothing different would happen.
That's a contrast to votes for women where politicians and people could bring about change in the uk because they had the power to do so. They can spray paint all day long, it won't make a difference in this case.
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There are countless organisations which have sought to change government policy and (sometimes) damaged property in support of their goals - eg: Animal Liberation Front, Greenpeace, Just Stop Oil, Poll tax, Black Lives Matter etc etc.
These groups have not been proscribed. Action is taken under existing legislation where appropriate - IMHO the authorities have sometimes been too lax in pursuit of offenders.
Palestinian Action are somewhat different:
- their intent is unambiguously political (whether justified or not). The intent of other groups may be the product of a sincere belief. The right to protest is important.
- damage was directed against UK defence infrastructure, and could compromise the security of both the UK and its ally. This sets it apart from damage by other groups which (generally) impacts civil and business property
PA expressing a view on Israeli actions in Gaza would have been legitimate protest. But as the first duty of the government is to keep citizens safe and the country secure, their actions go beyond the "legitimate" and the decision to proscribe is a reasonable outcome.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjkke22gv9o
Against the death penalty, but FFS, in a time of war, this would be treason!
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq6mjg13dz6o
55 arrested for showing support to a prescribed organisation.
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Proscribed, not prescribed.
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>> Keep taking the tablets.
>>
Some of them probably do need medication. :)
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Yes, you're right. Anyway 71 locked up now.
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They're going to have to arrest a lot of people if they think agreeing with the reasons for the direct action is an offence.
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>> Yes, you're right. Anyway 71 locked up now.
Of they're all in cells then there's something very wrong. Remanded and bailed to return would make sense though proscription is way over the top.
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"In the last war, this lot would probably be hanged "
Along with the half the Israeli Government and IDF?
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>> "In the last war, this lot would probably be hanged "
>>
>> Along with the half the Israeli Government and IDF?
>>
For clarification, this was in response to some nasty individuals who, at the behest of the Wagner group, set fire to a warehouse in the UK that was manufacturing weapons and not general protestors.
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 13 Jul 25 at 23:07
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>> >> Yes, you're right. Anyway 71 locked up now.
>>
>> Of they're all in cells then there's something very wrong. Remanded and bailed to return
>> would make sense though proscription is way over the top.
>>
Just a turn of phrase for being arrested.
I'm not sure what the sentencing range is for supporting a terrorist organisation.
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I believe they are at court today for some sort of hearing.
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>> I believe they are at court today for some sort of hearing.
Trial date set for 2027!!
That's a hell of a time to be remanded in custody if that continues to be the position.
www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/palestine-action-terrorism-raf-brize-norton-2027-trial-b1238875.html
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Seems there's quite a backlog of cases. Seems there's a review of that date next year. I suppose they'll knock 18 months off their sentences.
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Its not "knocked off" its time served.
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Putting aside the politics and all that, £7m of damage isn't insignificant. What did those sycamore men get, 4 years wasn't it, and that had a "value" much lower.
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Have you seen the price of logs for the wood burner??!!
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>> Have you seen the price of logs for the wood burner??!!
>>
In your spare time you need to go out chumping. Helps if you take a bowsaw and large old rucsac ( as I occasionally do after spotting suitable timber on a walk).
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2.4 cubic metres hardwood = £280
:)
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>> Putting aside the politics and all that, £7m of damage isn't insignificant. What did those
>> sycamore men get, 4 years wasn't it, and that had a "value" much lower.
Have we actually had proper confirmation of seven million pounds damage?
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Was one of the affected planes not in the air 2 or 3 days later?
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And now that they have managed to say Palestine Action is a terrorist organisation, it would appear supporting Palestine can not lead you into trouble.
See how this works???
www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag
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"Have we actually had proper confirmation of seven million pounds damage?"
I've no idea but even if it were 10 or 100 times overstated is it not still a significant amount?
And it was a criminal act.
Should we be hoping they just get a bit of a telling off?
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>> "Have we actually had proper confirmation of seven million pounds damage?"
>>
The cost has been widely quoted as £7M, though advised sources put it at closer to £50 damage, and £6,999,950 in consultant's fees to assess and report on the extent. ;-)
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There seems to be two separate issues.
That the court case is currently scheduled for Jan 2027 reflects either (or possibly both):
- the dire state of UK justice system - 18 months wait for trial is completely unacceptable
- delay means that the Gaza issue may be old news and the trial of limited media or public interest
The other issue is the arrest of protestors apparently supporting the now proscribed Palestinian Action. That folk have a right to legitimate protest is a given. That protesting in support of PA is an offence is a given - it is the law irrespective of any personal views you may hold.
Whether the actions of the arrested protestors is legitimate or an offence is a judgement call with a wide potential "grey" area.
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There is the right of protest, regardless of who or what cause. What these D heads have done, is pushed the "protest" into sabotage against the state military, in a tightened state of alertness (ironically nothing do with palestine) and jumped heavily into the range of treasonable activity, thereby dragging the orginal protest cause (the actions of the state of israel) into disrepute, and damging the ability of the right to protest against an obhorent action.
They should be locked up for just being plain stupid.
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Their sabotage has not been confined to the military. They have vandalised civilian businesses and property to the tune of thousands of pounds.
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>> Their sabotage has not been confined to the military. They have vandalised civilian businesses and
>> property to the tune of thousands of pounds.
I think we all understand that. There are plenty of variations on criminal damage they can be charged with. If government thinks the range of sentencing for such offences is inadequate then they can change them.
My opposition is to the extending of proscription for terror in ways which, whatever the wording of the legislation, it's not been used before.
We're seeing the consequences for free speech in the cases Bobby and I have linked.
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>> Their sabotage has not been confined to the military. They have vandalised civilian businesses and
>> property to the tune of thousands of pounds.
>>
I think they've attacked a few defence companies as well.
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>> Have we actually had proper confirmation of seven million pounds damage?
>>
It was in the press release from the police. I suspect the correct amount will come out in court. Although I think it's largely irrelevant.
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Ironic that they are all getting arrested.
Reality is it should be Israel and their flag that should be the terrorist organisation. Any support for them should be the ones that are getting arrested. Support for Israel is support for genocide.
Just had my Facebook memory throw up that in 2019 I was visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau and my take away from it was the tour historian saying it will happen again unless we all work to prevent it.
At that point it was aimed at Trump, little did I know at that point that it would be Israel that was going to be committing the genocide a few years later. Aided and abetted by the UK Govt.
Sickening.
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Bobby, I said something very similar - but very briefly - earlier in this thread. It found little support!
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What 'aid' is the UK providing?
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What sanctions is it imposing on Israel out of disgust that it is committing genocide?
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>> What sanctions is it imposing on Israel out of disgust that it is committing genocide?
TBH they need nothing from us so sanctions pointless plus their enemies are our enemies. Its a tricky path to walk, but we havent gone out of our way to "support" them and I think they class us as "hostile"
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You wrote that the UK was aiding Israel though.
Last edited by: Biggles on Sun 20 Jul 25 at 21:26
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>> What 'aid' is the UK providing?
>>
Nothing, we've got nothing really they would need. Some in Palestinian Action have some weird/conspiracy related to the aircraft they damaged but there's always oddballs about.
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It is now time to break one of the anti semitism taboos.
Actions now by the israelis are exactly the same as the German SS clearing the cities of Poland and Hungary of Jews. It is building into the situation where we will be able to break one of the other taboos, and call this a Holocaust.
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Israel were clearly right to defend themselves initially after the October attack, but they have gone far too far.
They are now committing genocide.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 21 Jul 25 at 18:31
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One wonders how the jews can treat innocent Palestinian civilians like untermenschen, after what they themselves went through during WW2.
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Taking as read we all want an end to this ghastly war how can it be realistically achieved. Let’s assume a cease fire is brokered by the US. Where do we go from there? What is the future for Gaza and its population? How can some sort of lasting peace be brought about.? What to be done about Hamas?
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>> It is now time to break one of the anti semitism taboos.
>>
>> Actions now by the israelis are exactly the same as the German SS clearing the
>> cities of Poland and Hungary of Jews. It is building into the situation where we
>> will be able to break one of the other taboos, and call this a Holocaust.
Even before 7 October they were taking action that rendered the Holocaust Memorial definition of ant-semitism nonsense; they're creating the equivalent of Lebensraum for their own people on the West Bank.
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The current conflict is a humanitarian nightmare. It is the latest episode in a conflict unresolved for 75 years.
Hamas is intent on the elimination of Israel and its replacement with an Islamic state - Israel understandably finds this wholly unattractive and will fight to protect their existence.
Whether Israel are intent on genocide is debateable - the answer probably depends on where you are sitting (Gaza or Tel Aviv). That they have a right to defend themselves is beyond argument, although their response is well beyond proportionate.
In earlier conflicts fighting would by now have ceased as Hamas are no longer a current threat and international pressure on Israel to limit impacts on civilian populations may have had some effect. So what has changed?
10+ years ago Hamas were ill-equipped. Missiles were unguided, inaccurate and mostly made holes in the sand a few miles from their launch site. They now have missiles capable of targeting major Israeli towns and cities. Ukraine has changed the nature of conflict through the use of easily transportable, cheap and accurate drones.
Technological change now seriously threatens Israel security in a way not previously seen.
So I am unsurprised that Israel are seeking to completely eliminate the threat, irrespective of the damage caused to civilians. The international community needs to do far mor to facilitate (and fund??) solutions which almost certainly includes a Palestinian state (whether Israel likes it or not)
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Looks the fifth one has been remanded til 2027.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/18/protester-arrested-over-plasticine-action-t-shirt/
Police arrested a man for terrorism related offences because he was wearing a t-shirt which read "Plasticine Action" and included a picture of "Morph".
He was "de-arrested" when the police officer realised his mistake.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/18/protester-arrested-over-plasticine-action-t-shirt/
>>
>> Police arrested a man for terrorism related offences because he was wearing a t-shirt which
>> read "Plasticine Action" and included a picture of "Morph".
>>
>> He was "de-arrested" when the police officer realised his mistake.
In pursuit of a diversely talented police force (ethnicity, gender, sexual preferences, religion etc) which can relate to a diverse community, they have obviously decided the ability to read and write is no longer a high priority.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/18/protester-arrested-over-plasticine-action-t-shirt/
>>
>> Police arrested a man for terrorism related offences because he was wearing a t-shirt which
>> read "Plasticine Action" and included a picture of "Morph".
>>
>> He was "de-arrested" when the police officer realised his mistake.
>>
A non-paywalled version:
www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/18/protester-arrested-wearing-plasticine-action-t-shirt-palestine-gaza-protest
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He was at a Palestine support event and said himself "it was designed to be an easy mistake to make, appearing to look like the logo of Palestine Action"
Being deliberately provocative got him his half minute of fame anyway.
Slight tangent - my mate has a MAGA baseball cap which he thinks is great - it's in blue and says Make America Go Away.
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I suspect the Police officer could read the word perfectly well but thought the wearer was intending to be provocative. Once arrestee was at the station desk booking him in had second thoughts and sent him home.
Quite funny though.
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>> Quite funny though.
>>
That's my take on it - hense the smilley in the title.
I might get one of the t-shirts as they support a charity.
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>> I suspect the Police officer could read the word perfectly well but thought the wearer
>> was intending to be provocative. Once arrestee was at the station desk booking him in
>> had second thoughts and sent him home.
>>
Given that the pictures of him being "arrested" show him wearing a "scarf" (looks more like a tea towel to me designed to look like a keffiyeh) I doubt that the design could be read at all clearly.
Given that it was obviously meant to be provocative (misleading?) and given the context my sympathies are with the police. (though not with the law in this case, but the police have a job to do).
>> Quite funny though.
>>
Again, given that it was clearly and admittedly meant to be provocative, I don't find it funny at all, and a waste of police time.
If he wanted to make a point, he should have been brave enough to join in properly.
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Shirley it was the police's decision to waste their time, and they need provoking if only to start doing something more sensible.
The 'proscription' for terrorism and the penalties that go with it are an abuse of process. There are laws against criminal damage which is what lead to this ludicrous situation. It wasn't terrorism. If the damage to the nation's defences was so great then shouldn't whoever was responsible for guarding it be arrested too?
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The police don't make the law, they simply (at least sometimes) enforce it.
As I said above, I don't agree with the legislation/proscription in this case, but that has nothing to do with it.
Given the Government's attitude to Palestinian Action, ant its proscription, the police have patently come under political pressure to "manage" such protests, like it or not.
I'd have much more sympathy with the miscreant if he'd been arrested for a proper protest, rather than a blatant attempt at self-publicity.
(and don't call me Shirley).
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I suspect we are mainly in (non-violent) agreement. It just seems so ridiculous. Everything to do with Israel seems to be so distorted
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It is elected politicians who make the laws and the police who have a duty to enforce them. Their actions are entirely right - to do otherwise would be to allow mob rule to override Parliament.
That some may sympathise with the plight of the Palesinians and Gaza and have a particular view on the actions of Israel is understandable, and may reasonably protest in support of particular government actions.
Specific PA threat details were withheld from public scrutiny due to ongoing prosections. Thus we rely upon the integrity of politicicians who (I assume) had visibility of these threats in voting in favour of proscription.
In the world of half truths and spin in which the political classes operate I have no clue whatsoever whether their vote was justified or not.
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That sounds like more spin Terry.
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>> Specific PA threat details were withheld from public scrutiny due to ongoing prosections. Thus we
>> rely upon the integrity of politicicians who (I assume) had visibility of these threats in
>> voting in favour of proscription.
I think there were some 'CLOSED' sessions in the court hearing over whether proscription went beyond what the law allowed. However I don't think we've had a substantive decision yet. Hearing still to come.
If details were being withheld due to prosecutions then I assume those are still ongoing.
I'm not convinced about the integrity of the process here; it looks too much like a reflex thing to Brize Norton.
Something must be done; like dangerous dogs.
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Meanwhile we are welcoming the President of Israel this week. The guy who signs his names on bombs before they are used for murdering innocent civilians.
Last edited by: Bobby on Sun 7 Sep 25 at 17:36
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> I'm not convinced about the integrity of the process here; it looks too much like
>> a reflex thing to Brize Norton.
>>
>> Something must be done; like dangerous dogs.
>>
It might have given the gov a push, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I suspect there's unfriendly state actors supporting PA, much easier to keep an eye on them if they are proscribed organisation.
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>> I suspect there's unfriendly state actors supporting PA, much easier to keep an eye on
>> them if they are proscribed organisation.
Actually the opposite, drives them underground and they take greater security precations. Much better to let them act carelessly
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Clearly this has got out of hand, 800 people arrested for wearing a T-shirt, holding a banner, and being at a rally?
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If 800 fairly ordinary looking people ranging from teenagers to pensioners are arrested in breech of a law, then clearly that law is an ass.
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This is very topical, given its location - ie the walls of the Royal Courts of Justice, wonder what the authorities will do with this.
Excelent. (how the hell did he manage this with all the security cameras around the place)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrq0r0y878o
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 8 Sep 25 at 15:26
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>> If 800 fairly ordinary looking people ranging from teenagers to pensioners are arrested in breech
>> of a law, then clearly that law is an ass.
Mob rule vs the rule of law. I know which I support.
The law is an ass but we can vote for different asses every few years who can change the rules.
Getting 800 (or even 8000) together to campaign for a cause is trivial using social media - dismantle speed cameras, reduce beer duty to 2p a pint, legalise class A drugs, sink the boats in the channel etc etc etc may all be well supported causes.
Mostly we accept that with which we may personally disagree - proscription of PA is no different.
Last edited by: Terry on Mon 8 Sep 25 at 17:10
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>> >
>>
>> Mob rule vs the rule of law. I know which I support.
>>
>>
>>
There is a difference between mob rule and peaceful protest, which is what the majority of those arrested were engaged in.
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I think it's possible to protest without getting arrested. If people want to play silly games then that's on them.
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>> I think it's possible to protest without getting arrested.
clearly in this case, its not
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Others that day seemed to manage it.
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>> Others that day seemed to manage it.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/l0057fqy/hundreds-arrested-at-rally-protesting-palestine-action-ban
So you think mass arrests for this is acceptable?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 8 Sep 25 at 20:39
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>> There is a difference between mob rule and peaceful protest, which is what the majority
>> of those arrested were engaged in.
There are over 80 proscribed groups in the UK. Would you also support peaceful protest in support of Hamas, Hezbollah, IRA, ISIS, Taliban, assorted far right neo-Nazi gorups groups etc.
There is a "correct" way to challenge proscription through the courts - Hamas tried it and failed, PA has permission to challenge but yet to be adjudicated.
Its entirely reasonable to engage in peaceful protest in support of Palestine and Gaza without expressing supprt for PA. Just as one could campaign for a reunified Ireland but not express support for the IRA.
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>>
>> >> I suspect there's unfriendly state actors supporting PA, much easier to keep an eye
>> on
>> >> them if they are proscribed organisation.
>>
>> Actually the opposite, drives them underground and they take greater security precations. Much better to
>> let them act carelessly
>>
You might think so but not particularly no, once they are on the naughty boys list it becomes much easier to throw resources at them. There's also the other end such as their supporters that can be followed to a detail.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 7 Sep 25 at 23:29
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One organisation throws paint on planes and sits in peaceful protests and get arrested one by one, even from the wheelchair they are sitting in, trying to raise awareness of a genocide being carried out by our friends in Israel.
Another organisation organises a demo in London that leads to mass fighting, injuries to police officers and lots of damage and incurred police costs.
Which one did our govt decide is the more dangerous organisation and needed to be declared a proscribed terror organisation?
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>> One organisation throws paint on planes and sits in peaceful protests and get arrested one
>> by one, even from the wheelchair they are sitting in, trying to raise awareness of
>> a genocide being carried out by our friends in Israel.
>>
>> Another organisation organises a demo in London that leads to mass fighting, injuries to police
>> officers and lots of damage and incurred police costs.
>>
>> Which one did our govt decide is the more dangerous organisation and needed to be
>> declared a proscribed terror organisation?
A fair point. Possible difference - expressing a view, however repugnant, about immigration is entirely different to support of a proscribed group, even if their views align with opinions held.
I am uncertain which group organised the "Unite the Kingdom" march. Possibly none, but one which grew through social media initiated by Tommy Robinson and a few pals.
There was no group which had been proscribed, and possibly none that could be proscribed in the future. Could always arrest Tommy - IMHO an unpleasant character - for inciting a riot??
Peaceful protest is fundamental to our democracy - even if one doesn't agree with with the protesters. I found the contrast in sentiment associated with the flags at the march and Last Night of the Proms massive.
Sadly if 100k++ people with very strong feelings congregate there is always potential for emotion to spill over into violence. Just look up poll tax, Iraq, black lives matter, etc. There is always a small minority who simply enjoy a fight.
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And whose stuck in the middle of it?
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>> Free Kubala!!
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj3yp4rvp18o
Even I look at that crowd and shake my heid....
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Government loses bid to block appeal against Palestine Action ban www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce9dg5v43vmo
As the title says.
Let’s see what happens in November. Hopefully common sense prevails.
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>> Government loses bid to block appeal against Palestine Action ban.
One of the founders of PA challenged proscription via Judicial Review asserting the action was unreasonable unlawful etc. Hearing next month.
HMG asserted that was not the correct forum. PA should ask Home Office to review proscription and if unsuccessful appeal to a Tribunal set up for such cases. Effect would be to kick the issue into the long grass until well into next year.
Judgment and summary for media here:
www.judiciary.uk/judgments/ammori-v-secretary-of-state-for-the-home-department-2/
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www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g54g1r15eo
Looks another bunch of peaceful protesters.
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Video evidence showed to the court but a not guilty plea.
Last edited by: Biggles aka B_i_G on Tue 25 Nov 25 at 15:27
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That is truly awful. Nothing gives them the right to behave like that against another human. Did they really please not guilty???
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That is incredibly difficult to watch. Sickening in fact.
One consolation: If found guilty they wont get a discount for pleading not guilty early.
Is this a joint venture prosecution for the others as well?
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Made my stomach churn. The way in which she tried to control the PC with threat of violence and language and then cried like a baby when the cuffs went on.
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These Idiots Need the Book Thrown at Them - Manatee
