Non-motoring > British Steel Miscellaneous
Thread Author: smokie Replies: 35
View Threaded 

 Sat 12 Apr 25 12:37 
 British Steel - smokie
Won't this ne be billions down the plug hole on a basket case if they re-nationalise it? Either that, or (or possibly and) gifting bundles of cash to a company.

Why not just let it go?

I get that there would be job losses, possibly on a fairly grand scale, but that's happening everywhere isn't it? Why protect steelworkers, with an uneconomic business, and at such a vast cost, when there are other worthy causes.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 13:21 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> Won't this ne be billions down the plug hole on a basket case if they
>> re-nationalise it? Either that, or (or possibly and) gifting bundles of cash to a company.

(1) Politics
(2) Is there a strategic value in the ability to make steel from ore etc?
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 13:41 
 British Steel - Fullchat
The inability to make our own steel makes us impotent and totally reliant on others in the manufacture of military, naval hardware, infrastructure and transport projects.
This was predictable decades ago.
Scunthorpe produced high grade steel. The availability of 'cheap' Chinese steel started the decline and then they buy the steelworks??
Nationalisation was a dirty work particularly in respect of the commitment of the labour force from top to bottom. Is there a perhaps a change in mindset whereby that may have changed if steel production was saved?
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 12 Apr 25 at 13:42
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 15:24 
 British Steel - zippy
I've been to that plant.

I agree with FC.

There is steel, needed for everyday stuff that can be made anywhere in the world.

There is then specialist steel and metals that need to be made to incredible formulas and even in a vacuum for the aerospace industry. If we can't make that stuff then we've lost the next war before it even starts.

Cheap Chinese steel: About 7 years ago, I was asked to look in to the possibility of saving a company that had won the contract to supply the steel for a tower block / skyscraper.

They purchased the steel from China after seeing high quality samples.

The QC in China checked the shipped material as well, but of course the QC was taking bribes and what arrived had the strength of baked camembert.

Of course it's not limited to the Chinese. A metallurgist in the UK was arrested for falsifying test results for metal used by the US Navy.

Are the Chinese still building that nuclear power station in the South West?
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 12 Apr 25 at 15:28
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 13:45 
 British Steel - Falkirk Bairn
Last large steel plant in UK to make high quality steel for industry 2,700 direct jobs BUT thousands more in suppliers

Tata in South Wales closed their furnaces 2024 and new electric arc furnaces to be built.

Electric Arc is scrap in and new steel out but it cannot produce the high quality steel needed by industry - not hot enough..

High cost of materials, "Carbon costs" high cost labour compared to Indian & Chinese imports (No carbon costs) - however UK Security is also threatened.

BAe Barrow makes Nuclear Submarines - MoD steel orders 73% from France, 17% Belgium + other sources - saves them £££ but costs UK manufacturing jobs.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 15:30 
 British Steel - zippy
>> BAe Barrow makes Nuclear Submarines - MoD steel orders 73% from France, 17% Belgium +
>> other sources - saves them £££ but costs UK manufacturing jobs.
>>

Yes and in a shooting war, is unlikely to get to us.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 16:12 
 British Steel - tyrednemotional
>>
>> Yes and in a shooting war, is unlikely to get to us.
>>

You're not going to be concerned about the war itself. If it's here and significant enough to cause problems, then it's far too late to think about building nuclear submarines. ("Can we just have a temporary cease-fire for ten years, please").

What has happened is that the uprooting of the old order and alliances has made everyone, including the UK, think about where it routinely gets its strategic supplies and alliances from, and there's a feeling that some should be closer to home. (It is very obvious that "taps" can be turned off very quickly).

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a quiet re-appraisal of other supplies (such as coke, ore, etc. already mentioned). Raw imports of coal have dropped dramatically, but I suspect the UK could relatively easily be self-sufficient in coking coal in a relatively short timescale.

Iron Ore is another matter, though the big supplying countries are (at least at present) less suspect in terms of stable alliances.
Reply to this message | Report message
      1  
 Sat 12 Apr 25 14:00 
 British Steel - sooty123

>> Why not just let it go?
>>
>>

Otherwise it'll be another town turned into a ghost town. There's a cost to that as well.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 15:01 
 British Steel - Terry
If nationalised there needs to be a very clear reason and equally clear plan about the future.

Simply nationalising as a short term political expedient to save jobs is misguided - it just becomes a long term money pit. Keeping it open short term may be expedient whilst a coherent plan is developed.

I understand the plant is old and in need of modernisation.

The argument about it being a strategic capability is at least partially flawed - whilst it can produce high quality virgin steel there is very limited capacity in the UK for iron ore and coke - both of which rely upon imports.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 15:31 
 British Steel - Falkirk Bairn
Cumbria Coking Coal mine was mooted and turned down on climate reasons.
Wheteher we burn coking coal or China burns coking coal this gives off pollutants & heat - it's similar output but bringing it from China adds 000s miles more.

China imports coal & iron ore - as we do!

Security of supply, jobs - we cannot live off flipping burgers and a few Green Jobs

Current plans for the UK Green Energy are said to need 100,000 workers - almost all the jobs are in China
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 16:00 
 British Steel - sooty123
>> Cumbria Coking Coal mine was mooted and turned down on climate reasons.
>> Wheteher we burn coking coal or China burns coking coal this gives off pollutants &
>> heat - it's similar output but bringing it from China adds 000s miles more.
>>
>

The coke from cumbria wouldn't be of use in scunthorpe it's the wrong grade, too high a sulphur content
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 18:53 
 British Steel - Fullchat
Scunthorpe used to get its supply from Orgreave. Remember in 84 the convoys running coke to Scunthorpe steel works? 40 years ago and a different landscape industrially and politically.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 12 Apr 25 at 18:53
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 20:45 
 British Steel - tyrednemotional
Interesting plants, coking ovens. I had an acquaintance who was the manager of Smithywood coking plant NE of Sheffield. He gave a party of us an extended tour in the late 60s.

Heavy industry at its dark and dirty worst (coal and steel were largely still in their prime in the area).

They ran exceedingly hot, and ISTR that if they were ever allowed to cool down they were knackered by thermal stress (much like blast-furnaces).
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 22:14 
 British Steel - bathtub tom
>> They ran exceedingly hot, and ISTR that if they were ever allowed to cool down
>> they were knackered by thermal stress (much like blast-furnaces).

Similar to the (169. I believe) chimneys at Stewartby brickworks. The last four were retained for a while, but it was claimed allowing the kilns to cool destabilised them, so they were felled.

The site's now going to be a theme park!
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 15:42 
 British Steel - Ted

I've been doing a lot of screwing recently. ( Stop sniggering at the back ).

I have a couple of projects on the go which use up a fair number of self-tap and wood screws, all cross headed now. I've lost count of the number I've had to extract with a Mole wrench 'cos the screwdriver has chewed the head up when the going got tough. These, together with nuts and bolts that won't torque up, are all from China.

Utter crap. Come back GKN, all is forgiven !

Ted
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sat 12 Apr 25 16:09 
 British Steel - zippy
>>are all from China

Chinese quality can be absolutely crap at times - the aforementioned steel, your screws (same experience here), a metal cupboard manufacturer I know, set up shop with a subcontractor in China, excellent quality for the first batch, everything after needed so much re-work over here they didn't bother anymore.

Other times it can be excellent - look at iPhones assembled there - they are top quality.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 00:10 
 British Steel - smokie
The current owners say it is losing £700k a day. Isn't that about £250m a year? Seems a lot, when its acknowledged that the plant is out of date and needs replacement anyway.


Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 00:40 
 British Steel - Terry
>> The current owners say it is losing £700k a day. Isn't that about £250m a
>> year? Seems a lot, when its acknowledged that the plant is out of date and
>> needs replacement anyway.

The reason it's losing lots is that it hasn't been modernised and probably lacks real investment in the last 20+ years.

Around 1990 I worked for an group with a special steels division based in Sheffield. Their proud boast was that they had remained profitable over several decades. They did this by never investing properly and buying everything at the lowest possible price.

The newest machine in the machine shop dated from the 1950's bought second hand. The main furnace area had ~30 small furnaces (for brewing up special steels) - about 70% were out of service. The 22 acre site was notable for the number of decaying and derelict buildings.

You cannot run a business long term just by cost cutting when the competition are investing in new more efficient plant. The group went bust. The site in Sheffield is now a retail park with the usual DIY and supermarket outlets.

Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 10:07 
 British Steel - smokie
I doubt the government's plan includes any investment, it seems to be aimed at keeping the old stuff going by facilitating the supply of coke etc.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 10:33 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> I doubt the government's plan includes any investment, it seems to be aimed at keeping
>> the old stuff going by facilitating the supply of coke etc.

It's an emergency measure to give some breathing space.

If the furnaces are shut down that's it. As they cool differential contraction will render them useless.

There seems to be evidence that the Chinese owners were going to starve the plant of coking coal so that would be exactly what would happen.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:20 
 British Steel - Terry
>> It's an emergency measure to give some breathing space.
>>
>> If the furnaces are shut down that's it. As they cool differential contraction will render
>> them useless.
>>
>> There seems to be evidence that the Chinese owners were going to starve the plant
>> of coking coal so that would be exactly what would happen.
>>

I suspect Jingye had come to the conclusion they wanted to get out of their obligations:

- the plant needed investment (apparently) in the low £billions, or
- if closed large costs for redundancy and site clean up
- was anyway always likely to remain an uncompetitive high cost producer

Parliament has voted Jonathan Reynolds almost unlimited power to keep things going to provide a breathing space. What is unclear what the obligations the UK taxpayer will have assumed assuming Jingye will now simply walk away with no further liability:

- investment plan and whether any is justified
- redundancy costs if closed
- pension fund obligations
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:24 
 British Steel - smokie
So if they are obsolete and costing £700k a day why keep them running?
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:36 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> So if they are obsolete and costing £700k a day why keep them running?

Because HMG believe we need the facility to produce 'virgin steel' for reasons associated with National Security?

Which of course begs the question of why we'd no strategy for that before Port Talbot and others were allowed to close.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 15:19 
 British Steel - Terry
>> Because HMG believe we need the facility to produce 'virgin steel' for reasons associated with
>> National Security?
>>
>> Which of course begs the question of why we'd no strategy for that before Port
>> Talbot and others were allowed to close.
>>

The national security argument seems doubtful to me - it only becomes an issue if international trade is suspended for years, if not decades.

Most national security concerns would have a criticality associated with days or weeks - communications infrastructure, fuel supplies, food, water, medicines etc.

Special steels produced in blast furnaces may be used to build tanks, gearboxes, weapons systems, aircraft components etc. Turning iron ore into the finished product takes years - any national crisis would have been and gone by the time we produced.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 17:29 
 British Steel - Biggles
>Special steels produced in blast furnaces may be used to build tanks, gearboxes, weapons systems, aircraft components etc. Turning iron ore into the finished product takes years - any national crisis would have been and gone by the time we produced.

That is somewhat simplistic. While the future battlefield is likely to differ from what is on show in Ukraine, if we take that as a starting point, special steels will be needed for particular applications. One of which is the manufacture of tank and artillery barrels, both of which would tend to be stockpiled as they are a consumable. Now imagine our European partners agreeing to supply the particular grade of steel but imposing export controls and/or other conditions. Having a national supply then very much becomes a national security issue.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 20:38 
 British Steel - Terry
>> That is somewhat simplistic. While the future battlefield is likely to differ from what is
>> on show in Ukraine, if we take that as a starting point, special steels will
>> be needed for particular applications. One of which is the manufacture of tank and artillery
>> barrels, both of which would tend to be stockpiled as they are a consumable. Having a national supply then very much becomes a national security
>> issue.
>>
A spurious argument, I think. The UK should have a stockpile of barrels based upon plausible threats.

If the conflict lasts longer or is more intense than planned, how long would it take to produce the special steels required, manufacture and machine the material and resupply.

Steel making capability is reliant on iron ore and coke, both of which are currently imported. There may also be other constraints on production - in particular machine tool capacity. a single plant would anyway be an obvious target for any adversary.

Sadly UK defence capability has been eroded over the last three decades - whilst others may know better, I see little probability of an extended intense conventional conflict - we don't have enough equipment or manpower.

We may be far better to increase stockpiles of gun barrels than carry the continuing cost of operating an uneconomic plant. If investing in strategic capacity we may do better (based on Ukraine experiences) to focus on drones, "intelligent" weapons, resilient communications etc.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 10:34 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> Around 1990 I worked for an group with a special steels division based in Sheffield.

Was that the plant by the M1 with an anatomically correct bull sculpture outside?
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 10:53 
 British Steel - Terry
>> >> Around 1990 I worked for an group with a special steels division based in
>> Sheffield.
>>
>> Was that the plant by the M1 with an anatomically correct bull sculpture outside?

It was over 30 years ago and I don't recall.

FWIW, as it can't do any harm now, the company was Sanderson Kayser and I think it was the Attercliffe steel works.

Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:11 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> FWIW, as it can't do any harm now, the company was Sanderson Kayser and I
>> think it was the Attercliffe steel works.

Not the same outfit then as Attercliffe's some way from bordering the M1.
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 12:18 
 British Steel - tyrednemotional

>>
>> FWIW, as it can't do any harm now, the company was Sanderson Kayser and I
>> think it was the Attercliffe steel works.
>>
Back in the 60s Sanderson's sports ground was just up the road, and also significantly underinvested, to the extent that, being unfenced it was the location for many local impromptu football gatherings. Spent quite a bit of my youth on there. The neighbouring Habershon's ground was very much better tended, fenced and groundkeepered - strictly off limits
>>
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 12:12 
 British Steel - tyrednemotional

>>
>> Was that the plant by the M1 with an anatomically correct bull sculpture outside?
>>

That bull wer' a bison. (Avesta Steel - the site is now Outokumpu operated)
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:26 
 British Steel - sooty123
>> The current owners say it is losing £700k a day. Isn't that about £250m a
>> year?

I suppose they would say that wouldn't they.
Reply to this message | Report message
      1  
 Sun 13 Apr 25 11:38 
 British Steel - Bromptonaut
>> I suppose they would say that wouldn't they.

Mandy Rice-Davies's contribution to the English lexicon......
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 15:52 
 British Steel - Zero
Lets just summarise. Its a knee jerk reaction to get thinking space* in the face of geopolitcal and supply chain instability. *with little tangible domestic political fallout.
Reply to this message | Report message
      1  
 Sun 13 Apr 25 22:35 
 British Steel - bathtub tom
>> >> I suppose they would say that wouldn't they.
>>
>> Mandy Rice-Davies's contribution to the English lexicon......

Pedant mode on.
Didn't she actually say: "He would, wouldn't he?"
Pedant mode off.

I accept the often misquoted version does make more sense, a bit like the three witches from 'The Scottish Play' - hubble, bubble........................
Reply to this message | Report message
       
 Sun 13 Apr 25 22:59 
 British Steel - Robin O'Reliant
>> >> >>
>>
>> Pedant mode on.
>> Didn't she actually say: "He would, wouldn't he?"
>> Pedant mode off.
>>
>> I accept the often misquoted version does make more sense, a bit like the three
>> witches from 'The Scottish Play' - hubble, bubble........................
>>

I believe she actually said, "Well, he would."
Reply to this message | Report message
       
Latest Forum Posts
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 16:34
Non-motoring
by zippy
Our House Keeps on Giving...
Goodness, these men can work. I am exhausted watching them. ...
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 16:23
Non-motoring
by zippy
Terrible jokes thread.
Them wheels keep turning
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 16:08
Non-motoring
by Zero
Terrible jokes thread.
Nah its a dead art
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 15:05
Non-motoring
by tyrednemotional
Terrible jokes thread.
I was talking to a friend the other day about ...
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 12:46
Motoring Discussion
by Terry
BYD - Chinese cars and spying
Right now one may regard China as the more reliable ...
Tue, 29 Apr 2025 12:06
Motoring Discussion
by Zero
BYD - Chinese cars and spying
>> https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/don-t-plug-phones-into-chinese-electric-cars-defence-firms-warn/ar-AA1DMXFl Lot of this spying stuff is political hot ...